- Thread starter Oldmauser
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Hahaha I gave him a "like" without even noticing the outlier hole or reading the caliper... just saw that the cluster was smaller on #2 and assumed "Yep, FL + mandrel always wins".
So, I guess it goes without saying that I'd bet it was the human pulling the trigger, not the load, that caused the outlier hahaha.
Also, earlier in the thread I was saying that I was starting to think a clever expander ball can work as well as a mandrel on freshly annealed brass... ummm, fuck that, I've decided I'm going back to a FL bushing die without any expander ball, followed by a separate, dedicated mandrel die.
I did a comparison of rounds I'd loaded recently with the Mighty Armory sizing die against 20rds I found that I'd loaded my old way using a FL bushing sizer followed by a true mandrel, and there's just no comparison... I think it's worth the extra work to use separate, dedicated dies and not pull anything up out of the case through the neck. My rounds done with the MA die aren't dogshit by any means, but I stacked 5 of the "old stuff" on top of each other on an IPSC at 1000 yards off a tank trap with a Shmedium without even trying too hard.
The stuff loaded in 2 steps using the real-deal mandrel are just super consistent and predictable, no surprises.
This is the direction I think I will go too.
I don't mind the extra step for the expander and I feel it will yield the best results.
To the OP, I didn't mention it before, but I think part of the secret sauce is: not squashing the neck so much before one runs the mandrel through.
I think there's a "happy zone" where you size the neck down just enough to where the mandrel will make full engagement around the mouth of the case, but not much more than that. I use a bushing die just because I'm too impatient to wait on getting a custom honed FL die (especially considering the times we're living in with extended lead times on everything), but I do believe a 1-piece custom FL die is probably the best way to go.
A bushing die is just handy because one can experiment a bit or adapt if one changes brass (or their brass changes) through the life of a barrel, just easier to live with I guess. But, that said, I'm not much of a believer in "self centering" or "float" with bushings when I know that stuff can be avoided altogether by just keeping shit straight, and in correct proportion with one and other, sizing the body, shoulder, and neck in one single action.
I agree with what @TheGerman mentioned earlier, there is a relationship between what size bushing you use and the mandrel... so I'm starting to think maybe the best way to go is to first use a FL bushing die to figure out what works best, and then, if you've got enough of the same brass to cook the barrel or just want to go whole-hog, go ahead and order a custom honed die in the neck OD you're convinced is the shit, and then use that when it shows up.
I think there's a "happy zone" where you size the neck down just enough to where the mandrel will make full engagement around the mouth of the case, but not much more than that. I use a bushing die just because I'm too impatient to wait on getting a custom honed FL die (especially considering the times we're living in with extended lead times on everything), but I do believe a 1-piece custom FL die is probably the best way to go.
A bushing die is just handy because one can experiment a bit or adapt if one changes brass (or their brass changes) through the life of a barrel, just easier to live with I guess. But, that said, I'm not much of a believer in "self centering" or "float" with bushings when I know that stuff can be avoided altogether by just keeping shit straight, and in correct proportion with one and other, sizing the body, shoulder, and neck in one single action.
I agree with what @TheGerman mentioned earlier, there is a relationship between what size bushing you use and the mandrel... so I'm starting to think maybe the best way to go is to first use a FL bushing die to figure out what works best, and then, if you've got enough of the same brass to cook the barrel or just want to go whole-hog, go ahead and order a custom honed die in the neck OD you're convinced is the shit, and then use that when it shows up.
I haven’t noticed any huge differences using a non bushing die without the expander ball and a bushing die. At least on paper or chronograph.
Yes, the size mandrel you use to get the desired neck inside diameter is different.
Working brass as minimal as possible is never a bad idea. But I can’t find a huge difference on paper. I do anneal though, so that likely helps.
The group no. 2 seems a bit better. However process no. 2 is the way to go only if you have the same headspace. I measured the brass- I have 10 pieces of fireformed brass shot in group no.2 which has different headspace of about 2 thau within the group. So, will have to bump the shoulders with a body die or just run normal FL die.
Yeah, I don't know if it's one of those things that makes a big difference or not (regular FL vs bushing FL sizer). I tend to think of it like a "best practice" type of deal: to me, in theory it seems pretty obvious that one would get better concentricity and the best final product using a 1-piece regular FL die, since all the parts are always in the same place/relationship every time (no "floating/self-centering" bushing).
Does it matter downrange, probably not.
I think the main negative thing about using a bushing die is that we've all heard stories about them supposedly causing donuts and doing harm over time vs a regular FL die... but IDK if that's so true if someone has the rest of their shit together. I've got some Hornady brass that hasn't had an easy life and has only ever seen a bushing die, still hanging on with ~13+ firings, so who knows?
Nothing special here. Though, I do try to do things exactly the same way every time. I've found I always regret it later whenever I'm lazy and skip any steps, so now I just don't skip anything.
This is for 6mm creedmoor:
1. Anneal on AMP (FYI/FWIW the AMP doesn't care if brass is clean or dirty, same results, but if you want to use Aztec mode before washing the brass, remember to analyze a case after it's been fired and is in the same unwashed state it'll be in as you'll be using it. Alternately, in Standard mode with the AMP, clean or dirty doesn't seem to matter.)
2. Decap - Lee Universal Decapping die.
3. Wet tumble 45mins-1.5hrs (depending on how many cases I'm doing) with ~2 handfuls of SS pins per 100 cases.
>>>Semi-important maybe? = I always use 1-2 caps full of Armor All Wash & Wax + a little LemiShine - the AAWW leaves a super thin layer of wax on the cases which I believe helps with the sizing process... Then, I dry the cases in a brass dryer for 1.5-3hrs (case count dependent).
4. Lube cases - I throw my cases in a plastic container and spray them with 5-10 squirts of lanolin/alcohol mix and then screw the lid on and swirl and tumble them around for a minute or so, then give them 10-15mins for the alcohol to evaporate.
5. FL size bumping shoulders back -.002". My current sizing die is a L.E. Wilson FL bushing die with a Redding Ti Nitride .268" bushing inside. (My loaded-round neck OD = .272-.273"). I use a Hornady comparator w/ shoulder bushing insert for measuring headspace/bump. The Wilson die is new to me but so far I like it. It's different from the Redding S-type Fl bushing die and Hornady Match Grade FL bushing die I had used for thousands of rounds, in that with the Wilson there's no "float"... you can't rattle the bushing around in your hand, there's no rattle because the bushing is in a fixed spot. To me, the Wilson is the closest approximation of a regular non-bushing custom honed die, or at least that's why I got it. The Wilson doesn't even have or come with any type of expander ball or pseudo-mandrel thingy (but weirdly you can't really remove the decap pin altogether, you need to keep it installed to secure/capture the bushing in place, which is a little quirky).
I don't want to get too deep in the weeds about it, but some of the way my reloading process has evolved has to do with my own personal "ethos": I've never really completely bought in on the whole "float" thing. I'm not into floating stuff unless "rigid-the-same-way-every-time" isn't an option (like on a progressive). I've heard it explained a zillion different ways and it only makes sense to me if relative concentricity is one's goal... whereas most want to spin a round around on one of those gauges and barely see the needle move, I tend to look at it more like I don't give a shit about each individual case having it's own unique concentricity, I'm literally trying to bend a softer metal into a specific shape using a harder metal plus force amplified by leverage. I'm squashing it into the dimension I want without any mercy, and I'd like them to all end up the same damn shape every time if I can manage it, so I just try to squash them all the same exact way every time like a caveman, no float randomness for me. YMMV.
6. 21st Century mandrel die with their Ti Nitride "turning arbor" (.241"). This is the only thing that "floats" in my process and I don't even know if it's fair to call it that: I just don't tighten the snot out of the o-ring at the top, so the mandrel can deflect a little bit, that's it.
7. Dry tumble in corn cob media for 45mins-1.5hrs. Removes all the lube, gets dust in the necks for seating later.
8. Trim all cases to 1.915". I have been using a Frankford Arsenal Universal Precision Case Trimmer while waiting on a Giraud, drill chuck mounted one, and it kind of kicks ass. I may cancel my Giraud order, because most decent drills like mine have a motor that's like a Hellcat compared to the Giraud's weak Prius motor... Only takes 1-2 seconds per case.
9. Chamfer + deburr all cases (using correct VLD chamfer tool). I don't hit the mouths very long, I try to not remove too much material. I use a Hornady Case Prep Duo - super fast and clean (but rechargeable battery only lasts 200-300 cases depending on luck). I'm careful and protective of the case mouths until I've seated bullets... if I drop any cases on their mouths or otherwise nick up the freshly prepped chamfer/debur in any way, I redo them.
10. Priming - I use a Frankford Arsenal Perfect Seat Priming Tool - I think it is the best priming tool out there pound for pound. Perfect every time and fast. I can still close a Captains of Crush left over from my USPSA days, so that helps...
11. Drop Powder - I use Sta-Ball (ball powder) and drop straight into cases using a Lyman Brass Smith volumetric powder measure. My scale is a ~$40-50 National Metallic, not fancy. My scale is only accurate to +/- .1gr, but it stays almost dead-on every single time once setup. If it's over/under ever, it's only +/- .1gr, never more, never less. No reason for me to upgrade to something more fancy when I have single digit SD's and powder takes less than 10mins per 100rds. I refill the powder measure and weigh a drop every 25rds when dropping powder so there's no chance of going too far off the rails. Plus, I like the powder to maintain the same "stack" over the baffle. One of these days I'm going to see if Dramworx or someone out there will make me a powder hopper that'll hold like 1-2lbs of powder so dropping powder can go even faster... When I'm dropping powder I try to act like a robot as much as possible so every drop is alike. I use 50rd loading blocks, but only do 25rds at a time before turning the block around and topping off the powder measure, less wrist-fatigue involved, less mishaps.
12. Seat bullets - I'm currently using a Forster Benchrest micrometer seating die. I like the Forster die because it encloses the whole case when seating, and is as similar as one can get to using an arbor press and in-line seater, just faster. I use a Hornady comparator w/ bullet bushing insert for measuring case base to ogive (CBTO or BTO).
All my cases feel near identical to each other as far as seating pressure felt at the handle. Super smooth, I only need 1 or 2 fingers on the handle when seating.
One thing I do that's a little unique (and I haven't really heard anyone else using around here) is I use a really small press, a Lyman Ideal (see attached). Single-stages I've used include: Forster, Redding, and RCBS... I like the little Lyman the best, and I mean by a lot, it's not close. I originally bought it just for seating bullets and was going to do everything else on my Dillon XL750, but the little Lyman kicks ass and is great at it all. IMO its smaller size is a huge plus. The little press lets me feel everything, way more feel than larger presses provide, absolutely no need of an arbor press and/or any force pack gauges. Not to mention, pretty sure the little press was cheaper than one of my dies hahaha.
I've tried some other stuff that kind of worked nearly as well, and some stuff that didn't work at all, but at the end of the day to me it's all about doing all the steps, all the time. Some of the tools I use aren't the most expensive tools out there, but they were chosen with consideration: for instance the FA priming tool I use only costs ~$75, but that doesn't mean I didn't buy/try 6 other tools that cost from ~$25-600 before deciding on it hahahaha...
I think an individual finding the right tools that work for them is important, and I think it's a good idea to try a few different things before deciding on what to settle on. Again, like with the priming tool: yeah, I've used the $600 "competition" priming tool that's out there, IMO it's a waste of money and is slow, the cheaper Frankford is better for me. When I'm 80 years old and have lost most of my grip strength, then I'll get an RCBS auto-prime or just use the Dillon, because at that point the better tool for the individual will have changed.
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