Do many of you do neck turining on your brass and to what advantage?
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Re: neck turning
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: guy2205</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do many of you do neck turining on your brass and to what advantage? </div></div>
Factory chambers: NO
Match/tight chambers: YES
It takes a lot of time to turn necks.
Chris
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: guy2205</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do many of you do neck turining on your brass and to what advantage? </div></div>
Factory chambers: NO
Match/tight chambers: YES
It takes a lot of time to turn necks.
Chris
Re: neck turning
This might be interesting reading.
The reasons to turn necks in a factory / non-tight-necked changer are two-fold:
1) In using bushing neck-sizing dies (or any other non-expander type sizing dies), consistent neck wall thickness will create consistent bullet tension, which will lower MV SD'd and hopefully lead to less vertical dispersion.
2) Consistent neckwall thickness throughout will create a better-aligned bullet (less runout). Measure the neck walls in 4 places on a few hundred cases and you will see that there can be quite a bit of variation.
As to it not being needed in "our sport," it depends on what "our sport" is. German is a high power guy and he is doing it. A lot of F-class / long range guys do it. For tac comps, the time might be better spent elsewhere, but it depends on what you want to do and how much dispersion is acceptable to you at long range.
At short range, you probably won't see much of a difference.
This might be interesting reading.
The reasons to turn necks in a factory / non-tight-necked changer are two-fold:
1) In using bushing neck-sizing dies (or any other non-expander type sizing dies), consistent neck wall thickness will create consistent bullet tension, which will lower MV SD'd and hopefully lead to less vertical dispersion.
2) Consistent neckwall thickness throughout will create a better-aligned bullet (less runout). Measure the neck walls in 4 places on a few hundred cases and you will see that there can be quite a bit of variation.
As to it not being needed in "our sport," it depends on what "our sport" is. German is a high power guy and he is doing it. A lot of F-class / long range guys do it. For tac comps, the time might be better spent elsewhere, but it depends on what you want to do and how much dispersion is acceptable to you at long range.
At short range, you probably won't see much of a difference.
Re: neck turning
If you are after long range accuracy, neck turning would be a must.
Yes, it is time consuming, but good loads are a major component of accuracy, whether you are weighing each powder charge on a digital scale, or sorting bullets, neck turning, truing primer pockets etc.
If you are after long range accuracy, neck turning would be a must.
Yes, it is time consuming, but good loads are a major component of accuracy, whether you are weighing each powder charge on a digital scale, or sorting bullets, neck turning, truing primer pockets etc.
Re: neck turning
Wouldn't neck turning only be a benefit in a case where the neck itself is actually contact with the walls of the chamber?
My thinking on this is that even if there is runout in the case neck it wouldn't matter unless the OD of the neck was solidly in contact with the chamber's ID...?
Wouldn't neck turning only be a benefit in a case where the neck itself is actually contact with the walls of the chamber?
My thinking on this is that even if there is runout in the case neck it wouldn't matter unless the OD of the neck was solidly in contact with the chamber's ID...?
Re: neck turning
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shot In The Dark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wouldn't neck turning only be a benefit in a case where the neck itself is actually contact with the walls of the chamber?
My thinking on this is that even if there is runout in the case neck it wouldn't matter unless the OD of the neck was solidly in contact with the chamber's ID...?</div></div>
Even in a tight chamber, the neck won't be in contact with the chamber's ID. They leave about two thou of clearance.
For a tight chamber, they have to turn, so there is not much of a question. The advantages of a tight necked chamber are that the brass has little room to expand, so brass life is substantially longer and the case requires very little sizing.
If you think about it, if you have a case neck that is thick at 12 o'clock and thin at 6 o'clock, the bullet is going to tend to sit towards 6 o'clock. Further, if your seater is coming straight down (not floating), it will cause the bullet tip to point towards 12 o'clock as the stem is centered and the bullet base is headed towards the 6 o'clock position (a floating bullet seater might be able to limit this impact by seating the bullet straight down).
If we can agree that runout negatively impacts accuracy, then this is probably a bad thing.
Now, Lapua brass has, on average, a little under .001" variation in a neck wall thickness throughout. Neck turning with a manual turner will take that down to .0001" variation. So you should see a runout reduction on the order of .0009".
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shot In The Dark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wouldn't neck turning only be a benefit in a case where the neck itself is actually contact with the walls of the chamber?
My thinking on this is that even if there is runout in the case neck it wouldn't matter unless the OD of the neck was solidly in contact with the chamber's ID...?</div></div>
Even in a tight chamber, the neck won't be in contact with the chamber's ID. They leave about two thou of clearance.
For a tight chamber, they have to turn, so there is not much of a question. The advantages of a tight necked chamber are that the brass has little room to expand, so brass life is substantially longer and the case requires very little sizing.
If you think about it, if you have a case neck that is thick at 12 o'clock and thin at 6 o'clock, the bullet is going to tend to sit towards 6 o'clock. Further, if your seater is coming straight down (not floating), it will cause the bullet tip to point towards 12 o'clock as the stem is centered and the bullet base is headed towards the 6 o'clock position (a floating bullet seater might be able to limit this impact by seating the bullet straight down).
If we can agree that runout negatively impacts accuracy, then this is probably a bad thing.
Now, Lapua brass has, on average, a little under .001" variation in a neck wall thickness throughout. Neck turning with a manual turner will take that down to .0001" variation. So you should see a runout reduction on the order of .0009".
Re: neck turning
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shot In The Dark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wouldn't neck turning only be a benefit in a case where the neck itself is actually contact with the walls of the chamber?</div></div>
If the neck were in contact with the chamber throat, then the case could not let go of the bullet. This would not be good.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shot In The Dark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wouldn't neck turning only be a benefit in a case where the neck itself is actually contact with the walls of the chamber?</div></div>
If the neck were in contact with the chamber throat, then the case could not let go of the bullet. This would not be good.
Re: neck turning
If you have a factory chamber (.3433 neck) you probably won't gain much. With a custom reamer that can still shoot factory ammo (.341 neck)you might notice the difference if you just clean up the high spots on the neck. It will give you a more concentric neck and still not overwork your brass.
If you have a factory chamber (.3433 neck) you probably won't gain much. With a custom reamer that can still shoot factory ammo (.341 neck)you might notice the difference if you just clean up the high spots on the neck. It will give you a more concentric neck and still not overwork your brass.
Re: neck turning
I dont know why you guys say its time consuming. It takes me 10 minutes to neck turn 100 pieces of brass, if that.
All you need to speed up your neck turning process is a cordless drill (I cant think of a single person that doesnt own one)
and these 2 inexpensive items
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=352653
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=174316
chuck the 3 jaw chuck in your drill, insert a case, spin to lock, and neck turn a case in 3 seconds. The whole process takes 6 seconds per case once you get the hang of it.
watch this video starting at about 3:25 to see how much faster a drill makes neck turning. Now the guy is not using a lee 3 jaw chuck, he is using a caliber specific version. The lee 3 jaw chuck is universal from the smallest case you can imagine to the large magnums.
<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/JASKPjKEi4c"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/JASKPjKEi4c" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>
I dont know why you guys say its time consuming. It takes me 10 minutes to neck turn 100 pieces of brass, if that.
All you need to speed up your neck turning process is a cordless drill (I cant think of a single person that doesnt own one)
and these 2 inexpensive items
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=352653
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=174316
chuck the 3 jaw chuck in your drill, insert a case, spin to lock, and neck turn a case in 3 seconds. The whole process takes 6 seconds per case once you get the hang of it.
watch this video starting at about 3:25 to see how much faster a drill makes neck turning. Now the guy is not using a lee 3 jaw chuck, he is using a caliber specific version. The lee 3 jaw chuck is universal from the smallest case you can imagine to the large magnums.
<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/JASKPjKEi4c"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/JASKPjKEi4c" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>
Re: neck turning
this video shows how a 3 jaw chuck works, except on a drill its faster.
<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/7PV2hSJ-hDY"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/7PV2hSJ-hDY" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>
this video shows how a 3 jaw chuck works, except on a drill its faster.
<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/7PV2hSJ-hDY"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/7PV2hSJ-hDY" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>
Re: neck turning
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LarryB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you have a factory chamber (.3433 neck) you probably won't gain much. With a custom reamer that can still shoot factory ammo (.341 neck)you might notice the difference if you just clean up the high spots on the neck. It will give you a more concentric neck and still not overwork your brass. </div></div>
What Larry said. I have a 0.341 neck chamber and do neck turn to clean up the high spots. Good brass life (Lapua) and the difference does show up on the target between my neck turned brass and non-neck turned brass...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LarryB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you have a factory chamber (.3433 neck) you probably won't gain much. With a custom reamer that can still shoot factory ammo (.341 neck)you might notice the difference if you just clean up the high spots on the neck. It will give you a more concentric neck and still not overwork your brass. </div></div>
What Larry said. I have a 0.341 neck chamber and do neck turn to clean up the high spots. Good brass life (Lapua) and the difference does show up on the target between my neck turned brass and non-neck turned brass...
Re: neck turning
Hi all
Thanks for the info .
looks like i will be neck turning my brass.
regards
Guy
Hi all
Thanks for the info .
looks like i will be neck turning my brass.
regards
Guy
Re: neck turning
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LarryB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you have a factory chamber (.3433 neck) you probably won't gain much. With a custom reamer that can still shoot factory ammo (.341 neck)you might notice the difference if you just clean up the high spots on the neck. It will give you a more concentric neck and still not overwork your brass. </div></div>
I would have to disagree, what it will gain you is even neck tension. Once you neck turn Win brass and see how fucked up the neck wall thickness is, you will neck turn whether you have a tight neck or not from that day forth.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LarryB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you have a factory chamber (.3433 neck) you probably won't gain much. With a custom reamer that can still shoot factory ammo (.341 neck)you might notice the difference if you just clean up the high spots on the neck. It will give you a more concentric neck and still not overwork your brass. </div></div>
I would have to disagree, what it will gain you is even neck tension. Once you neck turn Win brass and see how fucked up the neck wall thickness is, you will neck turn whether you have a tight neck or not from that day forth.
Re: neck turning
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If you think about it, if you have a case neck that is thick at 12 o'clock and thin at 6 o'clock, the bullet is going to tend to sit towards 6 o'clock. Further, if your seater is coming straight down (not floating), it will cause the bullet tip to point towards 12 o'clock as the stem is centered and the bullet base is headed towards the 6 o'clock position (a floating bullet seater might be able to limit this impact by seating the bullet straight down).
</div></div>
Oh, you're so right, I neglected to think about inconsistency in neck thickness. I was equating the neck runout to simple deformation. With a chamber tolerance of lets say .002-.003" I can see how the start position of the bullet would be askew. Looks like I'll go pick up a trimmer tomorrow. Thanks Mayfield!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If you think about it, if you have a case neck that is thick at 12 o'clock and thin at 6 o'clock, the bullet is going to tend to sit towards 6 o'clock. Further, if your seater is coming straight down (not floating), it will cause the bullet tip to point towards 12 o'clock as the stem is centered and the bullet base is headed towards the 6 o'clock position (a floating bullet seater might be able to limit this impact by seating the bullet straight down).
</div></div>
Oh, you're so right, I neglected to think about inconsistency in neck thickness. I was equating the neck runout to simple deformation. With a chamber tolerance of lets say .002-.003" I can see how the start position of the bullet would be askew. Looks like I'll go pick up a trimmer tomorrow. Thanks Mayfield!
Re: neck turning
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Once you neck turn Win brass and see how fucked up the neck wall thickness is, you will neck turn whether you have a tight neck or not from that day forth. </div></div>
How good/bad is LC brass?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Once you neck turn Win brass and see how fucked up the neck wall thickness is, you will neck turn whether you have a tight neck or not from that day forth. </div></div>
How good/bad is LC brass?
Re: neck turning
Same as Win. Even Lapua and Norma brass could use a clean up pass on the necks, but nowhere near the level of Win/Rem/LC.
Same as Win. Even Lapua and Norma brass could use a clean up pass on the necks, but nowhere near the level of Win/Rem/LC.
Re: neck turning
USMCj, are you turning down the entire OD of the neck or just knocking down enough runout to bring them into .00X? Also, are you turning the necks before or after the length trim?
Thanks in advance!
USMCj, are you turning down the entire OD of the neck or just knocking down enough runout to bring them into .00X? Also, are you turning the necks before or after the length trim?
Thanks in advance!
Re: neck turning
I set it up to turn down most of the high spots, which ended up being a lot! Win brass is crap in the neck area, some cases had very little removed and some a whole lot. In the end, I use a .310 neck bushing for 2 thou tension. so a loaded cartridge measures .312" so Im guessing a total of .002-.003 was removed.
I havent had the need to trim the brass since they have not grown a single bit. One of the good side effects of neck sizing for 4 firings and using a body die on the 5th reload to bump the shoulder back. All of my 4x fired brass still measures 2.100-2.102"
I set it up to turn down most of the high spots, which ended up being a lot! Win brass is crap in the neck area, some cases had very little removed and some a whole lot. In the end, I use a .310 neck bushing for 2 thou tension. so a loaded cartridge measures .312" so Im guessing a total of .002-.003 was removed.
I havent had the need to trim the brass since they have not grown a single bit. One of the good side effects of neck sizing for 4 firings and using a body die on the 5th reload to bump the shoulder back. All of my 4x fired brass still measures 2.100-2.102"
Re: neck turning
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I set it up to turn down most of the high spots, which ended up being a lot! Win brass is crap in the neck area, some cases had very little removed and some a whole lot. In the end, I use a .310 neck bushing for 2 thou tension. so a loaded cartridge measures .312" so Im guessing a total of .002-.003 was removed.
I havent had the need to trim the brass since they have not grown a single bit. One of the good side effects of neck sizing for 4 firings and using a body die on the 5th reload to bump the shoulder back. All of my 4x fired brass still measures 2.100-2.102" </div></div>
Awesome, thanks man!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I set it up to turn down most of the high spots, which ended up being a lot! Win brass is crap in the neck area, some cases had very little removed and some a whole lot. In the end, I use a .310 neck bushing for 2 thou tension. so a loaded cartridge measures .312" so Im guessing a total of .002-.003 was removed.
I havent had the need to trim the brass since they have not grown a single bit. One of the good side effects of neck sizing for 4 firings and using a body die on the 5th reload to bump the shoulder back. All of my 4x fired brass still measures 2.100-2.102" </div></div>
Awesome, thanks man!
Re: neck turning
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LarryB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you have a factory chamber (.3433 neck) you probably won't gain much. With a custom reamer that can still shoot factory ammo (.341 neck)you might notice the difference if you just clean up the high spots on the neck. It will give you a more concentric neck and still not overwork your brass. </div></div>
I would have to disagree, what it will gain you is even neck tension. Once you neck turn Win brass and see how fucked up the neck wall thickness is, you will neck turn whether you have a tight neck or not from that day forth.</div></div>You are absolutely right on neck bullet tension, however, the only time I use Win brass is factory black Hills and I leave it lay where it falls. What I have found with Winchester brass and a SAAMI chamber is .010 neck clearance and if you are turning another .002 you are working the brass .006 per side. My personal preferance is to not work brass more than .0015 per side. Just my personal preferance. I also tend to have reamers made for calibers that I shoot a lot; .308, 6br, 6ppc, so when I have need of a new barrel I am confident that the chamber is the same as the previous ones and the reamer is sharp.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LarryB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you have a factory chamber (.3433 neck) you probably won't gain much. With a custom reamer that can still shoot factory ammo (.341 neck)you might notice the difference if you just clean up the high spots on the neck. It will give you a more concentric neck and still not overwork your brass. </div></div>
I would have to disagree, what it will gain you is even neck tension. Once you neck turn Win brass and see how fucked up the neck wall thickness is, you will neck turn whether you have a tight neck or not from that day forth.</div></div>You are absolutely right on neck bullet tension, however, the only time I use Win brass is factory black Hills and I leave it lay where it falls. What I have found with Winchester brass and a SAAMI chamber is .010 neck clearance and if you are turning another .002 you are working the brass .006 per side. My personal preferance is to not work brass more than .0015 per side. Just my personal preferance. I also tend to have reamers made for calibers that I shoot a lot; .308, 6br, 6ppc, so when I have need of a new barrel I am confident that the chamber is the same as the previous ones and the reamer is sharp.
Re: neck turning
I hear what you are saying, and I agee! Had I known how fucked up Win brass was, I would have gone with a tight neck chamber, maybe a .315 neck turn. That way with the brass turned down to .312 it would have given me 3 thou clearance which would have been perfect. Live and learn I guess!
I hear what you are saying, and I agee! Had I known how fucked up Win brass was, I would have gone with a tight neck chamber, maybe a .315 neck turn. That way with the brass turned down to .312 it would have given me 3 thou clearance which would have been perfect. Live and learn I guess!
Re: neck turning
Gents, good info here thanks.
Do you recommend turning the necks on new Lapua brass or do you wait until it's fire formed? If you are trimming new lapua brass for a no turn (.340) neck how much should you take off?
I bump the shoulder .001 after every firing, if you are neck sizing only for the first 4-5 reloads and then bumping do you not run the risk of running into feeding issues?
Thanks,
Rath
Gents, good info here thanks.
Do you recommend turning the necks on new Lapua brass or do you wait until it's fire formed? If you are trimming new lapua brass for a no turn (.340) neck how much should you take off?
I bump the shoulder .001 after every firing, if you are neck sizing only for the first 4-5 reloads and then bumping do you not run the risk of running into feeding issues?
Thanks,
Rath
Re: neck turning
I only neck turn brand new brass. And yes, a very slight clean up pass should do for Lapua brass. Just to knock down the high spots. I always did it to my Lapua brass.
I only neck turn brand new brass. And yes, a very slight clean up pass should do for Lapua brass. Just to knock down the high spots. I always did it to my Lapua brass.
Re: neck turning
Should I dare say it.............
I turn my necks two times.
Should I dare say it.............
I turn my necks two times.
Re: neck turning
If you are taking a lot of metal off, it makes sense to do it in two passes. If you are doing a cleanup like I do or like USMCj does, one pass should be sufficient.
For deep cuts, I would take about 80% of the depth off in the first cut, then 20% for a fine cut to get very consistent results... of course, that will take a bunch of time, but it will get you very smooth results.
If you are taking a lot of metal off, it makes sense to do it in two passes. If you are doing a cleanup like I do or like USMCj does, one pass should be sufficient.
For deep cuts, I would take about 80% of the depth off in the first cut, then 20% for a fine cut to get very consistent results... of course, that will take a bunch of time, but it will get you very smooth results.
Re: neck turning
I don't turn necks but, I think there is a benefit. Since I'm lazy and, one of the members here taught me about how you get just about the whole benefit of neck turning with a cheap ass lee collet neck sizing die. It squeezes the neck onto a rod ( mandril ) that is the right size for the neck. From the factory, mine produces about the right neck tension but, if you want more tension, you can turn the mandrill down a bit to get a little more tension. Honestly, it seems to work pretty well. I'm not knocking the guys that turn necks, mind you but, for me, a cheap collet die gets me almost there and, they're only about 20.00 LOL
I usually FL size the cases and bump the shoulders back .001 or so then, I size the necks seperately after doing the primper pocket prep and, my ammo is shooting really well. I'm not a benchrest shooter so, I'm not turning necks but, I can get pretty damned close and make ammo that is better than I am with the process I just described above. I need to work up some more loads but, the last set of loads I worked up like this shot extremely well. I'm not getting more than about a 2.5" vertical dispersion at the 1000yd line last time out at the range a couple of weeks ago. I'd say that is more than ok accuracy. Once I had my dope, I painted a stripe across a 12" plate that looks like a racing stripe a couple of weeks ago. LOL
I don't turn necks but, I think there is a benefit. Since I'm lazy and, one of the members here taught me about how you get just about the whole benefit of neck turning with a cheap ass lee collet neck sizing die. It squeezes the neck onto a rod ( mandril ) that is the right size for the neck. From the factory, mine produces about the right neck tension but, if you want more tension, you can turn the mandrill down a bit to get a little more tension. Honestly, it seems to work pretty well. I'm not knocking the guys that turn necks, mind you but, for me, a cheap collet die gets me almost there and, they're only about 20.00 LOL
I usually FL size the cases and bump the shoulders back .001 or so then, I size the necks seperately after doing the primper pocket prep and, my ammo is shooting really well. I'm not a benchrest shooter so, I'm not turning necks but, I can get pretty damned close and make ammo that is better than I am with the process I just described above. I need to work up some more loads but, the last set of loads I worked up like this shot extremely well. I'm not getting more than about a 2.5" vertical dispersion at the 1000yd line last time out at the range a couple of weeks ago. I'd say that is more than ok accuracy. Once I had my dope, I painted a stripe across a 12" plate that looks like a racing stripe a couple of weeks ago. LOL
Re: neck turning
You don't even need to go with the Lee die for this method. You can use a normal FL die and then run a mandrel through there sized .001" greater than the unloaded diameter you want. For instance, you could get one sized to .307" for .308. The neck will spring back to about .306", giving you .002" of neck tension.
You would need to buy a turning mandrel and die and then have the mandrel turned down by your machinist, which should be an easy task.
This puts the inconsistency on the outside as opposed to a bushing, which puts the inconsistency in the middle while delivering a round OD. You want the ID to be round, not the OD.
These are two ways to accomplish the same thing.
You don't even need to go with the Lee die for this method. You can use a normal FL die and then run a mandrel through there sized .001" greater than the unloaded diameter you want. For instance, you could get one sized to .307" for .308. The neck will spring back to about .306", giving you .002" of neck tension.
You would need to buy a turning mandrel and die and then have the mandrel turned down by your machinist, which should be an easy task.
This puts the inconsistency on the outside as opposed to a bushing, which puts the inconsistency in the middle while delivering a round OD. You want the ID to be round, not the OD.
These are two ways to accomplish the same thing.
Re: neck turning
Carter, you are correct, you do want the ID to be round, but if the OD is not round you get uneven neck tension and uneven bullet release. The way I do it is, I use a K&M mandrel to expand the necks so it fits the neck turner, which as you said, pushes all of the inconsistency to the outside of the neck, leaving the inside perfectly round, then I do a clean up pass to cut away all of the high spots, which leaves me with a neck that is the same thickness all the way around. So when a round is fired, there is the same amount of brass all the way around the neck, so it opens up and releases the bullet evenly, now having one side of the neck thicker than the other, what this does is the thin parts expands quicker than the thick part of the neck and the bullet has a better chance of going into the lands canted a little bit. If I had learned anything from reloading and measuring runout is the straighter the bullet goes into the rifling, the better accuracy you will have.
Hope this makes sense.
Carter, you are correct, you do want the ID to be round, but if the OD is not round you get uneven neck tension and uneven bullet release. The way I do it is, I use a K&M mandrel to expand the necks so it fits the neck turner, which as you said, pushes all of the inconsistency to the outside of the neck, leaving the inside perfectly round, then I do a clean up pass to cut away all of the high spots, which leaves me with a neck that is the same thickness all the way around. So when a round is fired, there is the same amount of brass all the way around the neck, so it opens up and releases the bullet evenly, now having one side of the neck thicker than the other, what this does is the thin parts expands quicker than the thick part of the neck and the bullet has a better chance of going into the lands canted a little bit. If I had learned anything from reloading and measuring runout is the straighter the bullet goes into the rifling, the better accuracy you will have.
Hope this makes sense.
Re: neck turning
I have and use the same setup, K&M expander plug, as USMCj. In my brain this is the most efficient and affective way to use a neck sizing die.
IMO, if you don't have equal thickness all the way around the neck you are just bumping the high or thick spots from outside the neck back to the inside of the neck.
One of the "smiths" I use always tells me "you can make this game as easy or as hard as you want. It all depends on what you're trying to make it do."
I have and use the same setup, K&M expander plug, as USMCj. In my brain this is the most efficient and affective way to use a neck sizing die.
IMO, if you don't have equal thickness all the way around the neck you are just bumping the high or thick spots from outside the neck back to the inside of the neck.
One of the "smiths" I use always tells me "you can make this game as easy or as hard as you want. It all depends on what you're trying to make it do."
Re: neck turning
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Carter, you are correct, you do want the ID to be round, but if the OD is not round you get uneven neck tension and uneven bullet release.</div></div>
I agree... if you use a neck bushing for sizing.
But let's say that you use a FL die that undersized the neck... to .303". Then you use a mandrel to open the neck back up to .306" by using a .307" mandrel. Now you have moved the inconsistencies to the outside while also creating a way to maintain consistent neck tension.
This is how a typical FL die works with an expander ball. Most people rip out the expander balls because they don't work very well and tend to cause inconsistent ID rather than correct it. The Lee collet works well because its mandrel works very well.
Personally, I think that the collet design has its own set of problems, which is why I would do a mandrel plus a competition or custom FL sizing die (without the expander ball). But Lee's mandrel is a brilliant design.
This wouldn't work for a tight necked chamber (the inconsistencies on OD can cause issues there), but it would work in a typical chamber that can feed factory ammo.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Carter, you are correct, you do want the ID to be round, but if the OD is not round you get uneven neck tension and uneven bullet release.</div></div>
I agree... if you use a neck bushing for sizing.
But let's say that you use a FL die that undersized the neck... to .303". Then you use a mandrel to open the neck back up to .306" by using a .307" mandrel. Now you have moved the inconsistencies to the outside while also creating a way to maintain consistent neck tension.
This is how a typical FL die works with an expander ball. Most people rip out the expander balls because they don't work very well and tend to cause inconsistent ID rather than correct it. The Lee collet works well because its mandrel works very well.
Personally, I think that the collet design has its own set of problems, which is why I would do a mandrel plus a competition or custom FL sizing die (without the expander ball). But Lee's mandrel is a brilliant design.
This wouldn't work for a tight necked chamber (the inconsistencies on OD can cause issues there), but it would work in a typical chamber that can feed factory ammo.
Re: neck turning
Thats not how it works. When the round goes off, the explosion inside the case expandes the neck and kicks the bullet out. If one side of the neck is thicker than the other, how can it expand evenly? the thinner side is going to expand first, then the thicker side causing uneven release. Its easier for me to picture it than to explain it in text. But if what you are doing it working for you, by all means, keep doing it.
Thats not how it works. When the round goes off, the explosion inside the case expandes the neck and kicks the bullet out. If one side of the neck is thicker than the other, how can it expand evenly? the thinner side is going to expand first, then the thicker side causing uneven release. Its easier for me to picture it than to explain it in text. But if what you are doing it working for you, by all means, keep doing it.
Re: neck turning
USMCj, what do you (exactly) for neck trimming? After our conversation, I went out looking for one to buy and was a little overwhelmed and the ones I thought I would get all got bad ratings on Midway so I'm wondering what you use.
USMCj, what do you (exactly) for neck trimming? After our conversation, I went out looking for one to buy and was a little overwhelmed and the ones I thought I would get all got bad ratings on Midway so I'm wondering what you use.
Re: neck turning
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thats not how it works. When the round goes off, the explosion inside the case expandes the neck and kicks the bullet out. If one side of the neck is thicker than the other, how can it expand evenly? the thinner side is going to expand first, then the thicker side causing uneven release. Its easier for me to picture it than to explain it in text. But if what you are doing it working for you, by all means, keep doing it.</div></div>
USMCj, I neck turn, so I am not really arguing that neck-turning is worse. My point is that there are other ways to get most of the benefit. For me, I turn because most of the really good dies (and custom dies) work on the neck bushing concept. In addition, sizing the neck just once versus undersizing and then expanding back is going to negatively impact brass life. I think you end up saving some work in the long run by getting your brass to last longer and not having to perform two sizing operations. Neck-turning only needs to be done once for the life of the brass while two-step sizing is forever. On the other hand, brass that is turned down and put in a thick neck will also expand more, which limits case life, but that is another conversation. For simple cleanup, I don't think that is a big deal.
Now, you are really controlling two things by neck-turning:
1) Consistency within a single piece of brass. Check the neck wall thickness in 4 places on a given piece of brass than has not been neck turned, and you will typically find at least a thou worth of variation or more depending on the make. This will cause run out problems.
2) Consistency from brass to brass. If you look at the average neck thickness of one piece of brass versus another, you will find this can vary by as much as a thou. This is huge considering that .001" is considered pretty light tension while .003" is considered good enough for most bolt guns for fast fire and field durability. If you aim for .002", you might be getting .001" or .003". That is relatively wide. This will cause MV problems as .001" variation will cause pressure differences.
You can get some consistency in both of those through the use of a properly customized mandrel. It will be concentric if it is held in a well-made expander die and if you use a Forster Co-ax, it should self-center pretty well.
As to the neck tension point, the way it is measured is by comparing ID to bullet diameter. Now is this a hundred percent right... is it truly measuring neck tension? As you mentioned, there might be second-order effects of brass being thicker in one spot versus another. It also depends on the "springiness" of the brass, which will depend on how much it has been worked. The second order-thickness effects, you are stuck with, although, I would think that this is minimal in a very roomy factory neck, but I may be very wrong on that. The "springiness" can be helped through annealing. I think a mandrel will get you close to consistent tension. And at least by the technical definition, will get you consistent neck tension, if not in actuality.
We know that annealing doesn't have a huge impact on accuracy, but it seems to have some impact (some claim), and a much larger impact on case life. People have tested that with varying results.
I never tested the impact of inconsistent neck wall thickness on accuracy using the mandrel method, but it might make for an interesting experiment. My next lot of brass, I might hold aside a few cases for experimentation. Of course, the other disadvantage of using the mandrel method is that I have to spend money getting a mandrel and then having a machinist turn it down. I already have the expander die. I would also need to get a bushing to tighten the neck down extra small before I expand it.
Sounds like an interesting experiment, though. My point was really that there is more than one way to skin a cat. While I employ one method (neck turning), I am not so hard-headed as to realize there are other legitimate ways. And it is difficult to argue against the kind of results some people can get from a cheap Lee collet die.
So sorry if I seemed to be arguing with you. I was trying to be a bit of a devil's advocate and to point out how others have gotten good results while avoiding neck turning. I, too, find it mildly annoying to me that there are a few folks who wear it as a badge of honor that they do not neck turn when they are dealing with the same concepts, just attacking it from a different angle. We are all going for the same thing, which is consistent ammo.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thats not how it works. When the round goes off, the explosion inside the case expandes the neck and kicks the bullet out. If one side of the neck is thicker than the other, how can it expand evenly? the thinner side is going to expand first, then the thicker side causing uneven release. Its easier for me to picture it than to explain it in text. But if what you are doing it working for you, by all means, keep doing it.</div></div>
USMCj, I neck turn, so I am not really arguing that neck-turning is worse. My point is that there are other ways to get most of the benefit. For me, I turn because most of the really good dies (and custom dies) work on the neck bushing concept. In addition, sizing the neck just once versus undersizing and then expanding back is going to negatively impact brass life. I think you end up saving some work in the long run by getting your brass to last longer and not having to perform two sizing operations. Neck-turning only needs to be done once for the life of the brass while two-step sizing is forever. On the other hand, brass that is turned down and put in a thick neck will also expand more, which limits case life, but that is another conversation. For simple cleanup, I don't think that is a big deal.
Now, you are really controlling two things by neck-turning:
1) Consistency within a single piece of brass. Check the neck wall thickness in 4 places on a given piece of brass than has not been neck turned, and you will typically find at least a thou worth of variation or more depending on the make. This will cause run out problems.
2) Consistency from brass to brass. If you look at the average neck thickness of one piece of brass versus another, you will find this can vary by as much as a thou. This is huge considering that .001" is considered pretty light tension while .003" is considered good enough for most bolt guns for fast fire and field durability. If you aim for .002", you might be getting .001" or .003". That is relatively wide. This will cause MV problems as .001" variation will cause pressure differences.
You can get some consistency in both of those through the use of a properly customized mandrel. It will be concentric if it is held in a well-made expander die and if you use a Forster Co-ax, it should self-center pretty well.
As to the neck tension point, the way it is measured is by comparing ID to bullet diameter. Now is this a hundred percent right... is it truly measuring neck tension? As you mentioned, there might be second-order effects of brass being thicker in one spot versus another. It also depends on the "springiness" of the brass, which will depend on how much it has been worked. The second order-thickness effects, you are stuck with, although, I would think that this is minimal in a very roomy factory neck, but I may be very wrong on that. The "springiness" can be helped through annealing. I think a mandrel will get you close to consistent tension. And at least by the technical definition, will get you consistent neck tension, if not in actuality.
We know that annealing doesn't have a huge impact on accuracy, but it seems to have some impact (some claim), and a much larger impact on case life. People have tested that with varying results.
I never tested the impact of inconsistent neck wall thickness on accuracy using the mandrel method, but it might make for an interesting experiment. My next lot of brass, I might hold aside a few cases for experimentation. Of course, the other disadvantage of using the mandrel method is that I have to spend money getting a mandrel and then having a machinist turn it down. I already have the expander die. I would also need to get a bushing to tighten the neck down extra small before I expand it.
Sounds like an interesting experiment, though. My point was really that there is more than one way to skin a cat. While I employ one method (neck turning), I am not so hard-headed as to realize there are other legitimate ways. And it is difficult to argue against the kind of results some people can get from a cheap Lee collet die.
So sorry if I seemed to be arguing with you. I was trying to be a bit of a devil's advocate and to point out how others have gotten good results while avoiding neck turning. I, too, find it mildly annoying to me that there are a few folks who wear it as a badge of honor that they do not neck turn when they are dealing with the same concepts, just attacking it from a different angle. We are all going for the same thing, which is consistent ammo.
Re: neck turning
I use a Pumpkin. It can be seen here http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek079.html
Not sure where to get one though. You can try here http://www.kelbly.com/ maybe they have some.
I use a Pumpkin. It can be seen here http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek079.html
Not sure where to get one though. You can try here http://www.kelbly.com/ maybe they have some.
Re: neck turning
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use a Pumpkin. It can be seen here http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek079.html
Not sure where to get one though. You can try here http://www.kelbly.com/ maybe they have some. </div></div>
Thanks USMCj, I'll see if I can get a hold of one.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use a Pumpkin. It can be seen here http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek079.html
Not sure where to get one though. You can try here http://www.kelbly.com/ maybe they have some. </div></div>
Thanks USMCj, I'll see if I can get a hold of one.
Re: neck turning
Go to www.brunoshooters.com, do a search on Nielson. You will need the turner as well as the Nielson Expander Die. It will come with one mandrel. If you want to do different calibers, you will need to buy additional mandrels.
Go to www.brunoshooters.com, do a search on Nielson. You will need the turner as well as the Nielson Expander Die. It will come with one mandrel. If you want to do different calibers, you will need to buy additional mandrels.
Re: neck turning
what do you people think off a 3 way cutter
what do you people think off a 3 way cutter
Re: neck turning
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: guy2205</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what do you people think off a 3 way cutter </div></div>
Like what? Is there an example you can show us for neck turning?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: guy2205</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what do you people think off a 3 way cutter </div></div>
Like what? Is there an example you can show us for neck turning?
Re: neck turning
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: guy2205</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what do you people think off a 3 way cutter </div></div>
You're thinking about length trimming not neck turning. They are two different things and tools.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: guy2205</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what do you people think off a 3 way cutter </div></div>
You're thinking about length trimming not neck turning. They are two different things and tools.
Re: neck turning
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shot In The Dark</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: guy2205</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what do you people think off a 3 way cutter </div></div>
You're thinking about length trimming not neck turning. They are two different things and tools. </div></div>
Yes you are right should of had done more homework on it instaed of reading in between the lines.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shot In The Dark</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: guy2205</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what do you people think off a 3 way cutter </div></div>
You're thinking about length trimming not neck turning. They are two different things and tools. </div></div>
Yes you are right should of had done more homework on it instaed of reading in between the lines.
Re: neck turning
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: guy2205</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shot In The Dark</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: guy2205</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what do you people think off a 3 way cutter </div></div>
You're thinking about length trimming not neck turning. They are two different things and tools. </div></div>
Yes you are right should of had done more homework on it instaed of reading in between the lines. </div></div>
On that side note however, I have a three way trimmer in my RCBS and it works awesome!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: guy2205</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shot In The Dark</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: guy2205</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what do you people think off a 3 way cutter </div></div>
You're thinking about length trimming not neck turning. They are two different things and tools. </div></div>
Yes you are right should of had done more homework on it instaed of reading in between the lines. </div></div>
Re: neck turning
At what point do you trim the neck. On new and 1X fired brass (Lapua)
After sizing and length trimming?
Or before.
Thank you
Joe
At what point do you trim the neck. On new and 1X fired brass (Lapua)
After sizing and length trimming?
Or before.
Thank you
Joe
Re: neck turning
FL size the brass with a non bushing die and no expander
Expand the neck with the expander mandrel
Trim the brass to a uniform length
Turn the neck to whatever thickness you want
Makes no difference if new, once fired, or fired 20 times.
FL size the brass with a non bushing die and no expander
Expand the neck with the expander mandrel
Trim the brass to a uniform length
Turn the neck to whatever thickness you want
Makes no difference if new, once fired, or fired 20 times.
Re: neck turning
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FL size the brass with a non bushing die and no expander
Expand the neck with the expander mandrel
Trim the brass to a uniform length
Turn the neck to whatever thickness you want
Makes no difference if new, once fired, or fired 20 times. </div></div>
I dont have a non bushing FL sizing die. Can i use the die I have or should I get a non bushing die?
If so what FL die would you recommend?
Thank you
Joe
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FL size the brass with a non bushing die and no expander
Expand the neck with the expander mandrel
Trim the brass to a uniform length
Turn the neck to whatever thickness you want
Makes no difference if new, once fired, or fired 20 times. </div></div>
I dont have a non bushing FL sizing die. Can i use the die I have or should I get a non bushing die?
If so what FL die would you recommend?
Thank you
Joe
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