Neck vs FL sizing with bushing dies

[Eric1977]

I have been putting together the supplies and equipment to begin reloading for my 6.5CM and 308. With this I plan on turning the necks of the brass as needed and minimally to help with uniformity. I plan on using Hornady match grade bushing dies which also uses neck sizing bushings.

I am new to bushing dies and neck turning. Here is my confusion... Is it better to use a bushing die that is also a FL sizing die ALL the time OR as needed to bump the shoulder? I was always under the impression the less you work the brass the better thus a bushing neck sizing die would be best. Now though it seems as though many, if not most, precision/bench shooters are using FL bushing dies at each reload. An article on the subject that brought this question to mind is HERE.

Can someone help set me straight on which direction I should be look at here?

 

[Huskydriver]

I think you are confusing a FL die set to size to Sammi spec and a FL die set to bump. Both are done with the same die. The only difference is how far the die is screwed into the press. Some guys choose to use the expander ball when they use a bushing die, some don't. You will need a bushing that is correct diameter for which method you will use.

 

[Jimgal62]

Full length and neck sizing dies both work great.

Neck tension for turned brass will require a bushing die or a custom die for the turned necks.

Concentricity of the turned, trimmed, chamfered and ‘bumped’ brass should be less than for 0.0015 for competition rounds.

Some shooters use a full length die, then a Sinclair mandrel die (mandrel is turned for neck turned brass) to achieve consistent neck tension.

Neck tension should be 0.0015 to 0.0025.

Remember reloading is a journey.

Buy Glen Zediker’s book - Handloading for Competition and look up 6.5 guys reloading practices on YouTube.

 

[Eric1977]

I always try to set my other FL dies up to push the shoulder back .001-.002. But even with that small of a bump i thought a neck only sizing die for a bolt gun was king until you were forced to push the should back due to the case finally expanding too much and the bolt became difficult.

What does the including or excluding the expander ball gain? Wouldn't it make bullet insertion more difficult if you dis not use one.

 

[Jimgal62]

Also look at Whidden Gunwerks and dies.

 

[Huskydriver]

Depends on what you feel the expander ball is doing for you. I personally don't use one unless I Jack up the case mouth. Some people do. There are several threads on here related to this discussion. Use Google for search instead of the search feature.

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...vs-neck-bushing-die-for-neck-tension.6874281/

 

[Supersubes]

Just let the term neck sizing fall out of your memory bank. It has no purpose here. Reason being that a batch of brass doesn’t expand the same even when fired with the same load. In a given batch, you’ll find a few that the bolt won’t close on without resistance, after very few firings. Next go round, it will be a few more, then a few more, and those early oversized cases will have become even harder to close on. I was one of these people long ago. Prioritizing brass life(which is a myth), over rifle finction is just stupid. That is not a recipe for consistency. Like Husky said, the important issue is FL length die adjustment. If you’ve been bumping shoulder .001-.002, that’s great, you’ll have no issue with brass life due to oversizing.

Not all expander balls are created equal. The Hornady match expander is probably the best imo. Well shaped, and the spindle it attaches to floats, so it doesn’t tend to pull necks off center. Some other die makers produce absolutely garbage expander balls, which really give expander balls a bad rep. You can use them or not, I do it both ways. With the Hornady match dies, I do use them. With premium brass(which I recommend), it won’t matter. With shitty brass, which have inconsistent necks, the ball pushes the defects to the outside of the neck, which will help slightly. This is because you’ll be seating into a round hole, which you wouldnt be if you were just using a bushing. Again, talking about shitty brass with baritone neck thickness about it circumference.

Just use Lapua brass in both, and developed good loads. Neck turning sucks.

 

[OzzyO20]

I personally use the Redding Type-S FL bushing die, remove the expander, and set neck tension with a 21st Century arbor mandrel. This does the least amount of work to the brass, and gives me very consistent results. Lapua brass is always the answer if available also. No reason to neck turn unless you're very serious with F-class, bench rest, etc.

 

[Safety_3rd]

If you havent purchased the dies yet, I would echo Jim/Ozzy and look at other die manufactures. I use Redding and forster. I have used a ton of Hornady, but eventually I get frustrated with the round produced from the hornady and upgrade my dies. I also use Lapua brass on my bolt action and load in my Co-Ax press. If I am making stuff to shoot in the AR I dont mind the hornady brass or the hornady press because it's much faster and I dont care as much if I cant find the brass later (like when I'm hog hunting).

 

[Eric1977]

With the Forester bump die setting the shoulder back .0015 or so, would there ever be a need to FLS with a FLS die to resize the case body?

I cannot think of a scenario where FLS is nesscary if using the bump die, but in other cases such as a 300wm i know the body will swell near the belt and eventually make chambering more difficult.

Im trying to weigh any advantages to choosing the forester bump die to something else. And the forester dies vs the hornady match grade bushing dies.

 

[lash]

Eric, I don’t know why you are so against full length sizing. Unless you are bench rest shooting in competition, there’s no need to go to these extremes. As already mentioned, you are not going to be killing your brass by over working just by full length sizing, especially if you keep your shoulder bump in the .002” range and use good brass.

Unless your goal is to set a record for brass life, you can let this concern go and start loading already. By full length sizing, you ensure that you will get consistent feeding under all conditions. There’s nothing more annoying than being in the middle of a string of fire at a match and you suddenly jam a cartridge in and can’t get the bolt closed. I’ve seen it happen too many times.

 

[Supersubes]

What he said ^


And yes, the case will grow radially at the base and stop feeding and extracting we’ll. It will be obvious when your bolt starts sticking as it bumps the extractor cam of the receiver.

Winmags only suffer that more obviously than normal cases because the typical sizing die can’t perfectly size the shoulder and get all the way down to the belt. Too much tolerance stacking between brass brands, brass lots, and chamber dimensions. Make no mistake, it’s the exact same problem though.

 

[Eric1977]

I really appreciate the advice from everyone. I have no reason to be set against FL sizing in reality. I guess that is just something i got in my head years ago.
So it sounds like the best option and consensus is a FLS bushing die. This will give me the added neck tension control and be of better concentricity in the end. Especially if i decide later to use the manderels from sinclair for neck tension.

That said.... this rules out to Forester bump die if i understand its functionality correctly. The Hornady match grade set sounds like a good option since it has a seater with a mic and a FL bushing die.

 

[antithesis]

My nickels worth:

Always use a bushing, regardless of FL or neck only.

If (and you are not) you are grouping your brass by volume then you would only NB. If you were grouping and tracking your brass by volume then you may FLB size.

If you are using a FL die, ditch the expander button and get an expander mandrel die for the times that is it needed. Expander buttons strecth pull the shoulder forward on exit.

If you want to have a max expanded case, while still sizing it to make sure it does not stick in the chamber, buy a L.E. Wilson FLB die. Send them 3 pieces of fired brass (before you buy the die from them, or send it with the die you bought elsewhere) and they will check the die to your fired brass. If your brass is expanding beyond what they intended the die to correct, they will hone it to a safe dimension while still allowing it to chamber/cycle smoothly. Others like Harrells will also do custom honing. Never dealt with them, and Wilson is super easy to deal with.