Need 7.62x25 Tokarev Starting Loads

[bohem]

As the title says, I need starting loads. I tried all the manuals that I have access to, and looked anywhere I can think of.

Powders I have are: Bullseye, Unique, Ramshot Silohuette, Power Pistol, Blue Dot

Bullets I have are: 100 grn half jacketed RN's and 85 grn FMJ round nose.

New brass from Starline, wolf small pistol primers.

They are being used to feed a CZ-52

 

[JLM]

Re: Need 7.62x25 Tokarev Starting Loads

My turn to help YOU! Allthou I can't do it until tomorrow as my Lee book as at my friends house. He has a CZ-52 as well. Same dude with the problematic M44.

Will report back thou

 

[Clark]

Re: Need 7.62x25 Tokarev Starting Loads

The Army wrote or paid to have written a document in 1970 [FSTC-CW-07-03-70] that said that the CZ52 was stronger than the Tokarev.
In 2000 Accurate Arms made some measurements.
The Czech ammo that the CZ52 were designed for was running 42,000 c.u.p., the same as all Tokarev 7.62x25mm ammo, except Russian, which ran more like 30k c.u.p.
Ted Curtis at AA published data for CZ52 only in May 2000 for 42k c.u.p. loads, and I blew up a couple CZ52s.
It used to be thought that the CZ52 used hotter ammo and was stronger than the Tokarev, which ran hotter ammo than the 30 Mauser in the 96 Mauser pistol.
CZ52s started blowing up at shooting ranges with surplus Tokarev ammo. Someone got hurt at my range, but I don't have any details.
I wrote to AA and told them they had problems. I pointed out that the roller relief cut under the chamber left a spot where the chamber was the thinnest of any pistol chamber I ever measured.
Johan Loubser at AA came out with new data in 2004 that was 34 kcup for the the CZ52.
Now all US published data for the CZ52 and Tokarev is as wimpy as 30 Mauser data.
I wrote to Sierra about their pistol load book that said that the CZ52 is stronger than the Tokarev. I told them that the CZ52 is the only pistol I have ever tested that is weaker than the brass. They wrote back that they were just printing what THEY read.
I wrote gun writer Dr Jan Libourel with the same problem, and he had the same reaction as Sierra.
In 2005 I bought 11 spare barrels and pulled the barrels on two more and a co-conspirator measured the RC hardness at JPL.
The hardness varies from RC25 to RC47.
The 30 Mauser is dimensionally overlapped with the 7.62x25mm Tokarev round.
The 30 Mauser and 7.62x25mm Tokarev rounds have never been registered with SAAMI at any pressure.
Hodgdon now owns AA, and they have nothing on their web site about these cartridges.
I tried to sort out this whole mess and put it on Wikipedia.
Then some super editor of Wikipedia decided I had a bad attitude about her hero Che Guevara, and sought out to delete all entries I had ever made at Wikipedia, including the CZ52 metallurgy.

What does it all mean?
If you use 3.6 gr Bullseye with either bullet, you should be ok, as long as the round chambers easily and does not jam the bullet into the lands.
You don't work up a load in a CZ52. With your barrel, the first pressure sign might be a split barrel.
You stay at the start load.

 

[Downzero]

Re: Need 7.62x25 Tokarev Starting Loads

Why load for it?

 

[JLM]

Re: Need 7.62x25 Tokarev Starting Loads

Yikes.

I can still look at my Lee book if you want, BUT ummm......

Let me know.

Clark,

JPL is in THE JPL? Wow. RC of 25 is ummm....unsat....

 

[JLM]

Re: Need 7.62x25 Tokarev Starting Loads

Clark,

Did CIP ever establish safe pressures?

 

[50calibercruiser]

Re: Need 7.62x25 Tokarev Starting Loads

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why load for it? </div></div>
Because it's fun to shoot out of the AR

 

[bohem]

Re: Need 7.62x25 Tokarev Starting Loads

Thanks for all the replies, I had a crazy weekend and haven't been able to get back to my computer very much.

I wasn't aware of the weakness in the pistol itself, but thanks for pointing that out. I didn't know about the history lesson either, thanks

That's a cool ass AR upper you have, any idea what kind of velocities you see from (what looks like) about a 24" barrel?

I load for it because I have a pistol and empty brass, Fiocci ammo costs almost 75 cents a round, 200 rounds pays for the pistol, no thanks. I bought it because my dad has a set of dies to make 22 Reed Express and I had a spare 22 cal barrel. I'll probably shoot less 7.62 ammo and mostly 22 R.E. when I get the barrel from him.

To the RC25 comments, that's not the guiding factor in a thing. If you have enough material there you can make a chamber from silly putty. The guiding principal is what alloy at what heat treat.

If it's 1000 series at RC25, well, that's mild steel. If it's 4000 series at RC25 it's still significantly stronger than mild steel. I'm not arguing the thin wall of the chamber, I'm going to keep it as a toy to mess around with and I have a couple 10mm's if I want a super duty pistol round.

Thanks for the data point, that should do nicely for me to make up some rounds. Cheers all, thanks again.

JLM, shoot me a PM if when you get the info from that sickly M44 and we can figure out what to do for ya.

 

[JLM]

Re: Need 7.62x25 Tokarev Starting Loads

I scanned the pages out of the old Lee book for you, just need an email addy.

DISCLAIMER: USE AT YOUR OWN RISK.

And please be careful. I'd feel shitty if something happened to you bro.

 

[bohem]

Re: Need 7.62x25 Tokarev Starting Loads

Incoming PM, thanks.

I appreciate it, I'm going to work around the low values and keep in mind what was mentioned above. I'm not going to push the 30 caliber loads, thanks for the data