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Need a hvac expert.

M

mi223

Full Member
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 14, 2017
815
431
West Michigan
I am working on enclosing and finishing of a small 12x16 space inside of my barn for a bathroom/office. I would like to keep this area heated all winter separate from the main building. I would like to keep thermostat at 50-60 then be able to turn it up if I need to spend any extended time in there.

My first thought was a blue flame propane wall heater because they are inexpensive and are really nice to warm up next to. Someone told me a big down fall to them is they don't condensate so I will get foggy windows. Not sure how true this is.

My next thought is a heat pump unit. They seem nice taking up little space but I know at least at one time they struggled in extreme cold temperatures. Having ac in the summer would be a welcome addition as well but not completely necessary. This also looks like it would cost a lot more than a gas unit.

Does anyone have any thoughts as to what would be better for my application? I am open to any other ideas as well.

I live in Michigan so we get some pretty cold weather. I am planning to heat the rest of the shop area with some combination of propane heater and a wood stove.

Thanks for any help
 
For that small of a space I would go with the blue flame gas/lp heater. Especially if you don't care about having the AC.
The only other suggestion would be a mini split HVAC system. But for Michigan winter I am not sure if it would provide the heat necessary. They do fine in my climate zone of East TN.
Edit: yes, the blue flame will put moisture into the area but it is usually not that bad due to the dryer air in winter. So some moisture is actually not a bad thing
 
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Better...? Depends... (imagine that... ;) ) If this is something you're going to want for long(er) term use the ductless mini-split would be the ideal solution. Much more efficient, so it will pay its difference over the longer term versus buying propane; plus the added benefit of offering A/C in the summer if you elect to use it. If you're just looking for "down-n-dirty", short term, the other solutions you mentioned may have more merit.
 
12x16?

I would get a small oil filled space heater and call it done. ~$100. They are fairly efficient on the electricity also.

They only put out about 5k BTU though vs. 20-30k BTU from one of those flame heaters.
 
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For a space that small I’d shy away from one of the wall mounted open flame heaters. First off they’re burning the air you want to breath and secondly they’re fill that space with carbon monoxide. If a gas fired appliance is desired find one suitable for a mobile home or trailer that has a sealed combustion chamber. They draw the air for combustion from outside which doesn’t affect the air quality inside.
As far a air conditioning I’d just put a small window shaker in.
 
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DarnYankeeUSMC said:
For that small of a space I would go with the blue flame gas/lp heater. Especially if you don't care about having the AC.
The only other suggestion would be a mini split HVAC system. But for Michigan winter I am not sure if it would provide the heat necessary. They do fine in my climate zone of East TN.
Edit: yes, the blue flame will put moisture into the area but it is usually not that bad due to the dryer air in winter. So some moisture is actually not a bad thing
Click to expand...
Mini split to keep it a steady temp and a small blue flame (or little Buuddy) to heat it up when you want it really warm. Gives you AC in the suummer should you want it,helps control humidity.
 
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We have a mini-split, Senville from Amazon. Installed it easily, 19 SEER, heats down to 5* and very quiet. We get nights in the teens and it works very well.
 
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I use an electric space heater with thermostat to heat 16x16x9.5 area.
It is very well insulated but this will keep it 65 in zero weather.
Once the things in the shop are running they generate enough heat as it doesn't run much.
Plug in set thermostat, easy.

R
 
A closed loop geothermal heat pump might be your best solution.
 
If you're gonna go ground source, just do water-water and put tubing in the floor for radiant heat and then a hydro-coil air handler for cooling. 😆 🤣 😂

Seriously though, 12x16, give me a break. If you oversize a ductless unit, you'll likely have the btu needed to heat the space(especially at 50-60deg setpoint) easily down below zero outdoor temps. Just read the specs on what you're looking into. Otherwise, I'd recommend just an electric wall heater or even baseboard just to have a no-nonsense dependable heat source.
 
Rthur said:
I use an electric space heater with thermostat to heat 16x16x9.5 area.
It is very well insulated but this will keep it 65 in zero weather.
Once the things in the shop are running they generate enough heat as it doesn't run much.
Plug in set thermostat, easy.

R
Click to expand...
I have considered this also. I should look into their efficiency
 
Humidity? In Michigan?
I guess that's relative. <---- see what I did?
Maggot said:
Mini split to keep it a steady temp and a small blue flame (or little Buuddy) to heat it up when you want it really warm. Gives you AC in the suummer should you want it,helps control humidity.
Click to expand...
 
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am building a 10w X 12L X 8 1/2H. insulating the crap out of it and just going to run a little electric heater. i dont plan on keeping mine 65 all winter; 40 will do day to day and i will turn it up as needed. i am down to putting the ceiling on, the walls up, mounting the lights and wiring them up. then all i have to do is make the final wiring connections, and done.

i figure electric heater is plenty enough for my needs.
 
Budget? Preference for Electric, Gas, Oil, other?

If you're just looking to take the chill off the room look into electric wall mounted heaters.

Something like this.

Next I would reccomend a heat pump unit like you see in hotels. Heat/cool

Blueridge BPM07 7,200 BTU (0.6 Ton) Cooling, 10,900 BTU Heating, 13.1 EER Heat Pump PTAC, 3.5 kW Heat Strip, R-410A Refrigerant

www.alpinehomeair.com www.alpinehomeair.com

Then you have the mini split. Which is fine but needs a professional install.
 
2aBaCa said:
Budget? Preference for Electric, Gas, Oil, other?

If you're just looking to take the chill off the room look into electric wall mounted heaters.

Something like this.

Next I would reccomend a heat pump unit like you see in hotels. Heat/cool

Blueridge BPM07 7,200 BTU (0.6 Ton) Cooling, 10,900 BTU Heating, 13.1 EER Heat Pump PTAC, 3.5 kW Heat Strip, R-410A Refrigerant

www.alpinehomeair.com www.alpinehomeair.com

Then you have the mini split. Which is fine but needs a professional install.
Click to expand...


My budget is flexible. I am not independently wealthy but this is my office for my small plumbing business, so I would like the space to be comfortable

As for install I will install myself and call in some favors for vacuuming out the lines and charging.

Eta. I am not set on any fuel/power source. I am trying to figure out what makes the most sense. I have propane and obviously electric available
 
Last edited:
OP, 40 year HVAC design /build contractor/mech. engineer (retired). Two years ago I built a 12'x16' free standing shop with a salt box roof in my backyard here in central TX. It was framed with 2x4 and T-111 siding and I insulated it with R-11 unfaced batts and skinned it off with OSB inside because I hate doing sheetrock. It has two 2'x3' windows. Anyhow I just bought a Toshiba 1/2 ton (6,000 btuh) window shaker and intalled it on a separate circuit in one of the windows. It keeps the place plenty comfortable even in our central TX summers. In the winter I just run a portable electric heater off the same circuit and keep it at about 65. So do you have an outside wall on the space you are building? If so just frame out an opening for the $120 ACU, if not just let it vent into your barn but you may want to put some sort of condensate drain pan under it and pipe it outside. The little heater I bought at Walmart was like $40 and is quiet works great.
 
Last edited:
I heat a well insulated space 8'x8'x20' with a single electric-oil filled portable heater to 50 degrees all winter set on low. If you have electricity available, this works fine. The rest of the shop has a wood stove, it takes quite a while to heat it up, but once it's warm, I'd live out there for days if I could.
 
Seal and spray foam insulate the office/bathroom, and put a minimal heater in it for freeze protection. Put a mini-split in for comfort while it's occupied.
 
My main bitch with the mini splits is the condensate removal. The typically installed inline pumps are prone to failure. They’re just too fragile. If you can gravity drain them, do it. Not fond of the nylon mesh filter panels they come with. If and when the evap coil gets plugged up there is no way to easily clean them. When clean they work OK, just don’t let them get dirty....

My experience with them is limited to industrial, institutional and commercial use. Maybe they’re a different animal when installed in a residential setting cause we all know that people take top notch care of their home equipment.....🤣

This is the last ductless split I installed.

15 ton twinned condenser heat pump. Rtu feeds a 16 circuit distribution panel that feeds ceiling mounted cassette units in the class rooms.

reAkbQ.jpg

sVh5fd.jpg

ujJrl5.jpg
 
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Another vote for the oil filled space heater. Electric baseboard wouldn't be a bad idea either.
 
We keep a greenhouse around 8x12 ft heated all winter. Coroplast so MUCH less insulation than the OPs room-in-structure, floor drain without trap even to a ditch nearby so that is leaky, we open the door to go in regularly, etc. It maintains 50° +/- 2°F off an oil filled consumer heater down to around 15° F outside temp. When I know it'll be colder than that, I turn on the "lights." Overhead bulb is replaced in winter with a single 250 W LED IR heatlamp, that will keep it to the 50° setting down to the coldest we get around here, maybe -5° F outside temps.

YES, we can keep it warmer, we don't need to. Have had various gas systems, all were overkill. Small spaces aren't hard to heat. So not hard I might keep your little room at like 64° all the time, and if you need more, get a little box heater under the desk / bench where you'll be working. Flip it on to warm toes, etc when you get in.

IF you go plug-in like this, get a good thermostat. The ones on the front of all the little box/milkhouse/oil are well nigh useless. 20° droop. We also heat the "dog room" a door flapped space to the basement so the dog get A/C in summer, mostly is ambient through-walls heat/cool but in winter can get cold enough the house above is uncomfortable so has another oil heater. It can get to 70°F off the oil heater, easily.

Anyway, we use this plug in thermostat. Fully programmable, and holds 1-2° F droop.
https://www.amazon.com
/gp/product/B000E7NYY8/

(stupid forum link issue. Just glue those two strings together and you get the product link)

Have had others with bad thermometer, just stopped working, etc.
 
I'm in a little different temp zone than you, but an old school dehumidifier running in the corner kept my 8x12x8 gun room uncomfortably warm thru the winter. If you're plumbing in a bathroom, you could plumb in a dedicated drain for it as well.
 
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