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Neophyte Long Range

wichitaguns

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Minuteman
Jun 7, 2012
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So after a fairly long while spent assembling gear, with a few .set backs along the way, finally made it to.shooting beyond 400 yards.
Drove out to Spearpoint Ranch in Barnard Kansas with a group of guys..short aside, the guys are Spearpoint where phenomenal and have a fantastic facility.
Below are some observations, please feel.free to offer constructive advice or hard earned experience.
1) The 308 is ok out to 800, but royally struggles from 900 on out. This is moslty me as a new shooter but I struggled with the wind at 900 on. The target was in a valley and the wind wasn't any typical 30 miles, but it was inconsistent and my follow up shots were slow, which made the correction tough. I told guess 10 gusting to 15
Had no problem.doing this out to 800, but man, beyond that was kicking my tail.
2) should have checked the diopter on my scope (steiner t5xi). Had a heck of a time with eye relief, and getting a full sight picture without getting that scope.tube shadow effect. I think the diopter setting is partially at fault. Will tweak this before.making a gear change
3) The AI spigot mount kept coming loose with recoil. Thinking of getting the anarchy outdoors mount.

So this is the debrief.
The gear was as follows
Rifle:AI AE MK II in 308 with the factory 1-12 barrel.
Scope:Steiner T5Xi 5-25
Bipod:Atlas PSR
Rear Bag: GGG small.bag (still too big and need a smaller bag, maybe the 8451 bag)
Ammo: Hand Load 168g SMK and 168g Hornady equivalent
Future goals: hitting out to 1100 with the 308 (178 ELD M) a
 
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Well, it certainly can be done. This Ozzie guy is now kinda famous for shooting various calibers out to incredible distances and getting hits on a 24”x24” plate. He eventually got his 308 to hit that plate all the way out to 2,237 yards. Subsonic flight most of the way of course, so bullet selection is important.



Wind drift is quadratic, so shooting at 1000 yards vs 500 yards is not twice as hard, more like 4x harder.

This Kestel article gives a good rundown on what is needed to get hits beyond 1000 yards:


Wind estimation at the target (via a good spotting scope and staring at the mirage for 15 minutes before you take your first shot) is the biggest single skill you need to acquire.

I have a buddy who spent a decade mastering this skill: Drive 45 minutes to get to BLM land, set up rifle and spotting scope, pick a rock far far away, range it with a good LRF, study the mirage (how much, how constant, does it correlate with movement in nearby bushes and trees), then calculate a firing solution, double check mirage one more time, and take the shot, concentrating on your fundamentals. Then do one one more quick follow-up shot to correct for your estimation error (and to check your ammo consistency, paying attention to vertical spread). Record result, whether good or bad, figure out where you went wrong, be brutally honest and write it down in your notebook. Go home, study your notebook often. Write-your-own-textbook approach.

Not easy, but it can be mastered.
 
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I’ve shot 168’s to almost 1300 successfully.
175’s are definitely a good choice though.
 
Just an aside, I love the Mark and Sam videos. Those two are awesome
 
Interesting perspective on the trade-off between bullet weight, BC and wind drift. Basically mathematical proof that high muzzle velocity never compensates for the compromised BC of lightweight bullets, if wind drift is your main selection criteria (as it should be):


1E573ED9-07EC-4BBB-B56E-D3CFFEF5597B.jpeg


These are projected BC values, not actual commercial bullets. And yes i realize we don’t have a 300 gn 308 bullet (yet). 😊

Of course it would be even better to shoot that super heavy 250 gn 308 bullet out of a 300 PRC or a 300 Norma at much higher speed.... but shooting a 308WIN well beyond 1,000 is a worthy challenge, like learning to shoot a 22LR out to 400, which makes for a good ELR trainer rifle if you don’t have access to a 1,000 yard plus range nearby.
 
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You guys, thanks for all the input and the video link
..love the hide
On the skill side, lotsbofnroom to improve.
On th w gear side, the only piece if kit I think need that ind9nt already have is a chrono.
Think the steiner t5xi is good to go for now, need to fix the eye alignment/tube shadow issue.
Any suggestions on other gear
 
I've shot the 178 ELDx out to 1177 yards with my Remington R5 Milspec. Elevation is about 4500 ft above sea level. Bullet stayed supersonic and showed solid splashes on steel. You may be pushing the limits though with that twist rate on your barrel. But I say launch anyway!
 
You guys, thanks for all the input and the video link
..love the hide
On the skill side, lotsbofnroom to improve.
On th w gear side, the only piece if kit I think need that ind9nt already have is a chrono.
Think the steiner t5xi is good to go for now, need to fix the eye alignment/tube shadow issue.
Any suggestions on other gear

I used a MagnetoSpeed for a long time (the el cheapo version), and it served me well. Yeah it changes your point of impact (vertical will be off compared to ballistic calculator) but only if you mount it the way they tell you to.

Have a look at the David Tubb video recorded at King of 2 Miles. He mounted it in the horizontal plane (sideways), so it does not mess with your drop calcs or BC truing, the result is only a constant windage offset you can dial out. If you record the offset in your notebook (per bullet) you can shoot with and without it attached, and still know what drop to expect. I just shot with it on all the time.

Lately i use a Labradar, but that is more luxury than necessity.

Use up that 12 twist barrel shooting the heaviest bullets it will stabilize. Attend a training course. Then when you order a new barrel go for a faster twist, likely a 10 or even a 9.5 twist, but run your calcs and see what bullet weight you can handle. Speed does not compete with BC, so heavy is almost always better, unless your freebore is very short.

Of course, if you are changing the barrel you could consider a different caliber like a 7 SAUM, but this becomes a pricey exercise: New brass, new dies, and a new bolt.

Enjoy your 308 and don’t let anybody tell you it is inferior! [Every rifle cartridge is bettered by something else... A 20 mm Vulcan beats a 50 BMG, but that is a pointless comparison. And the Vulcan is beaten by the 155 mm Howitzer.... which is less capable than a cruise missile!]
 
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I used a MagnetoSpeed for a long time (the el cheapo version), and it served me well. Yeah it changes your point of impact (vertical will be off compared to ballistic calculator) but only if you mount it the way they tell you to.

Have a look at the David Tubb video at King of 2 Miles. He mounted it in the horizontal plan (sideways), so it does not mess with your drop calcs or BC truing, result is only a constant windage offset you can dial out. If you record the offset in your notebook (per bullet) you can shoot with and without it attached, and still know what to expect. I just shot with it on all the time.

Use up that 12 twist barrel shooting the heaviest bullets it will stabilize. Then when you order a new barrel go for a faster twist, likely a 10 twist, but run your calcs and see what bullet weight you can handle.
Tubb uses an off barrel mount and by going that route it basically does nothing to windage or trajectories especially if you set the sensitivity up and offset it from the bore a bit more.
 
I’ve shot 168’s to almost 1300 successfully.
175’s are definitely a good choice though.

Love the bullet trace in your videos! That 2600 yard trajectory goes really high!

Never seen the vortex left behind by the spinning bullet blown sideways by the wind through the ravine. Lens effect is clearly visible.
 
Love the bullet trace in your videos! That 2600 yard trajectory goes really high!

Never seen the vortex left behind by the spinning bullet blown sideways by the wind through the ravine. Lens effect is clearly visible.
The wind blowing the trace was a cool one for sure.
 
Interesting perspective on the trade-off between bullet weight, BC and wind drift. Basically mathematical proof that high muzzle velocity never compensates for the compromised BC of lightweight bullets, if wind drift is your main selection criteria (as it should be):


View attachment 7366784

These are projected BC values, not actual commercial bullets. And yes i realize we don’t have a 300 gn 308 bullet (yet). 😊

Of course it would be even better to shoot that super heavy 250 gn 308 bullet out of a 300 PRC or a 300 Norma at much higher speed.... but shooting a 308WIN well beyond 1,000 is a worthy challenge, like learning to shoot a 22LR out to 400, which makes for a good ELR trainer rifle if you don’t have access to a 1,000 yard plus range nearby.

168 just aren't that good past 800, they'll make it ok if it's hot but the 175's make it to 1000 without tumbling even when it isn't hot.
 
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Steel Head, what 308 bullets have you shot into the subsonic zone, and which ones remained stable?
 
Just 168 and 175 SMK, the 168 does ok if they have enough spin.
They both did Ok.
175’s definitely have a better reputation at distance.

Just curious: What twist rate did you run in your 308?

Bryan Litz and Josh Kunz at Patriot Valley Arms are all recommending much faster twist rates now, presumably to shoot the super high BC monolithic bullets and the new heavies.

It seems their PVA standard 308 prefit barrel has a 9 twist, with 7 or 8 twist available on special order. Surprising!

C8AC6B60-D722-47CE-9D35-D50ADE684CCF.png


Below is their new 241 gn monolithic bullet, which has a screaming high BC, but note the twist rate comment at the bottom in the pic below:

690CBF34-E178-4857-87AD-3C058DBC1720.png


They used a 7 twist 308 diameter barrel to shoot this very heavy 241 gn monolithic bullet - with a sky high G1 BC of 1.15, higher than most 50 cal bullets, and a superb G7 BC of 0.555!! Presumably this was fired from a 300 PRC or 300 Norma or similar to achieve the impressive 2810 fps muzzle velocity. Supersonic to beyond 2,300 yards according to Strelok. Amazing!

Seems to me there is a BC “arms race” going on between the bullet makers, and all the new bullets are getting longer and heavier, needing more freebore.

It would seem prudent to pick a faster twist rate when it is time to replace your 308 barrel, to shoot the latest heavies.
 
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I used to go to a long range steel match that went from 300Y on out to 1450Y, "most of the steel was from 500Y to 850Y". When I saw two of the most highly respected firearms instructors greatly struggle with their 308's/175's in this match, my previous conclusions about 308 for long range were set in concrete from that moment forward.
It was a facepalm moment when I saw one of these guys trying to hit the 1080Y 17" sized steel in heavy winds. He was using a standard mildot and the windage required was almost 6 mils, so he had to dial that solution in. He hit so far off both shots it was humorous to me, though of course I didn't let on about how I felt. I held off 2.5 mils and got this same steel both shots.

Your immediate goal should be screwing on a barrel in a cartridge that's up to the task. BC + speed = higher hit ratios. A favorite for consistency is Berger's 180gr hybrid in 7mm, the success it's brought in F-class with 284 Win is undeniable. Might not work the best in your rifle except single feeding.
Another one I would like to try is using Blackjacks 25 caliber 131gr bullet with .68 BC which can be driven fast in the 6.5 Creed case, etc, which are easily necked down.
 
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