Suppressors *** NEW *** Dead Air Sandman-S vs. Nomad-LT on .300 BLK w/ 220 Subs

FuhQ

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    Hopefully this video helps some folks who are trying to decide which can to get. It's not perfect, nor am I the best at anything, but I'm doing what I can, with what I got. And that's more to say than a lot of folks out there these days...

    If you like what you see... Please go to the video (on YouTube) and hit the like button, subscribe, share it with others, and feel free to post it and share it on your other social media platforms.

    Also, all my details, thoughts, opinions, and impressions are always in the description boxes. But I will post them here as well.

    Thanks!



    In this video I am testing the sound (Volume & Tone) differences of my Dead Air Sandman-S MIL-Contract suppressor with my brand new Dead Air Nomad-LT (all titanium) suppressor. I'm shooting it on my custom built 16" .300 Blackout using some of my handloaded 220gr. subsonic ammo. I'm not necessarily aiming to hit the gong @ 200 yards, but a few shots do. I also alternate some, on purpose, to hear the dirt impact vs. the gong plate sound so you can hear just how quiet they are. And YES, I left the last dry-fire in there on purpose so you can hear just how quiet the Nomad-LT actually is compared to a shot. Literally, the only noise you hear is the action cycling, and the gasses from the ejection port.

    One BIG thing to note, is that (in person) the Sandman-S is noticeably louder than the Nomad-LT, so the microphone's volume does actually clip when the shots go off with the Sandman. And the Nomad-LT is so incredibly quiet, you really only hear the action cycling, and the port noise from the gun, so it does NOT cause the microphone to have sound-clipping. You can tell this by how the fan sounds in the background. The fan gets quieter and louder with the Sandman-S suppressor being shot, but you hear it at the same exact volume with the Nomad-LT. So in the video the Sandman-S might sound the same volume as the Nomad-LT, but that's only due to the microphone clipping when a shot goes off because it is noticeably louder than the Nomad-LT.

    My takeaways...

    I love both cans, and they both serve their own unique roll in my collection. With Subsonics in a .300 BLK, BOTH suppressors are amazingly quiet. When it comes to shooting groups, my .300 BLK AR actually prefers the Sandman-S... 🤷🏼 Maybe it's a weight/harmonics thing?. But on my precision and bolt-action rifles, the Nomad-LT seems to not affect the groups at all, but it is MUCH quieter than the Sandman-S.

    As far as the "tone" of them... The heavier solid Stellite baffles and 17-4ph stainless steel tube of the Sandman-S gives it a VERY deep and chunky tone...It sounds great on the AR's in all calibers, both subs and supers. The Nomad-LT being solid titanium and very lightweight, has a slightly higher-pitched tone to it (titanium vs. stainless/stellite). It still has a great tone, and sounds amazing on bolt-actions because of how much of a DB reduction is provides. It's totally hearing-safe with supersonics. I can shoot it all day, and still not have it trigger my tinnitus.

    Overall volume and DB reduction... The Sandman-S is extremely quiet for a 6.8" suppressor. And it's definitely hearing-safe with .300 BLK subsonics. But in DB reduction, the Nomad-LT wins, hands-down. It's the quietest suppressor I've ever shot, and one of the quietest I've heard to date...In person. I can't wait to hunt with it. But, if you are wanting to use it mostly on an AR platform, or semi-auto rifle, the all-stainless Nomad-30 or Nomad-L would be a much better fit, because they can handle some hard-use, and rapid firing schedules, whereas, the Nomad-Ti and Nomad-LT are not made for that. They are made for the precision shooter/hunter, where you shoot 5 shot groups (at most), and then let it completely cool down. It's just the nature of the titanium beast... For SBR's, 5.56 (under 14.5"), full-auto/rapid fire, and things like that...Stainless steel, Stellite, marraiging alloy, and Inconel are your go-to metals they will be your strongest suppressors with full-auto and SBR ratings.

    In the future (Fall, Winter, Spring when it's not 90º-100º+ outside) I will get some open-air sound videos so it cuts down on the echo of being inside an enclosed area, and sounds more realistic to what you will hear outdoors and while hunting.
     

    FuhQ

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    Sorry for the short novel... I like to be thorough. Maybe it will help someone make an informed decision as to which one they want.
     
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    newgunguy3

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    Thank you! You tested one with a suppressor wrap on and one without. have you tested with and without the wrap to see if tone changes?

    You probably can’t tell with just ears, but with a meter it would be interesting to see if the wrap affects sound pressure at all — if the can flexs slightly from gas pressure creating some sound, noise But it’s absorbed by the wrap. Probably very little at best but still interesting to see if it exists. Science project!!! Thanks again.
     
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    FuhQ

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    Thank you! You tested one with a suppressor wrap on and one without. have you tested with and without the wrap to see if tone changes?

    You probably can’t tell with just ears, but with a meter it would be interesting to see if the wrap affects sound pressure at all — if the can flexs slightly from gas pressure creating some sound, noise But it’s absorbed by the wrap. Probably very little at best but still interesting to see if it exists. Science project!!! Thanks again.
    I’ve shot it on and off on my .260 Rem, but it made no difference…To my ears. I would think that if anything, the heavy dense Nomex material the wrap is made from, would probably deepen the sound.

    As for the wrap’s tension on the suppressor, I doubt you’ll ever get one of those wraps tight enough to alleviate wall flex without destroying the wrap, first. The inside is squishy Nomex fire-retardant material, like used in fire fighter turnouts, and gear. So, it would still allow the can to slightly flex if it needed to.
     

    FuhQ

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    Thanks for the comparison. I hunt a good bit with a Sandman S and L. A steel Nomad L will definitely be my next suppressor purchase.
    Awesome! Glad I can help! If it's going to be a bolt-action, or a rifle you won't be shooting any short-barrels, or fast shot strings with...I highly recommend looking at the Nomad-LT due to the weight savings over a regular Nomad-L. I think it's almost 10oz difference in them! The Nomad-LT with the factory Ti 5/8x24 DT end cap is only like 12 oz total. It's SUPER light. Great for hunting rifles.
     
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    Burning sensation

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    Awesome! Glad I can help! If it's going to be a bolt-action, or a rifle you won't be shooting any short-barrels, or fast shot strings with...I highly recommend looking at the Nomad-LT due to the weight savings over a regular Nomad-L. I think it's almost 10oz difference in them! The Nomad-LT with the factory Ti 5/8x24 DT end cap is only like 12 oz total. It's SUPER light. Great for hunting rifles.
    For me it’s the tone. I agree with your assessment of the tone difference between steel and Ti, and the higher pitch from a Ti can is not as pleasant to me. On one hand, the weight savings are tempting, but then the weight of my Sandman L doesn’t really bother me. My hunting grounds are pretty flat. I have a couple months to think. A Nomad LT may be quiet enough on a bolt gun that the tone wouldn’t bug me.
     
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    houndog

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    Great write up and video. Thank you MudRunner. Reviews are of particular interest to me since I've got a Sandman S and a Nomad L in jail right now. Thinking the Sandman is going to end up on assorted AR's (including a couple of SBR's), while Nomad L will be used on a couple of precision bolt action guns, including a 300 Win Mag.
     
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    Clayman

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    so the microphone's volume does actually clip when the shots go off with the Sandman. And the Nomad-LT is so incredibly quiet, you really only hear the action cycling, and the port noise from the gun, so it does NOT cause the microphone to have sound-clipping.

    I have tried recording different suppressors to compare sounds. They pretty much all sounded the same on camera unfortunately. You could hear that my Sandman K was louder but the Omega, Nomad, Nomad L, wolfman short and long all sounded pretty much the same with my phone lol. Alabama Arsenal seems to have decent sound comparisons, I'd be curious what his set up is.
     
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    db2000

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    Very thorough. My only feedback would be to shut off the fan in the building and as recommended already, use a proper sound meter as has been done in other comparisons. 🍻
     
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    FuhQ

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    For me it’s the tone. I agree with your assessment of the tone difference between steel and Ti, and the higher pitch from a Ti can is not as pleasant to me. On one hand, the weight savings are tempting, but then the weight of my Sandman L doesn’t really bother me. My hunting grounds are pretty flat. I have a couple months to think. A Nomad LT may be quiet enough on a bolt gun that the tone wouldn’t bug me.
    In the open air, the LT’s tone is nowhere near as pronounced as it is in the video, because in the video I’m inside a wooden building. In open-air, on my 14.5” 5.56 (supersonic), it sounds about as loud (DB, not tone) as an unsuppresed .22 rifle. Which is impressive how much it tames-down the 5.56, given how loud that little cartridge is.
     
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    FuhQ

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    Very thorough. My only feedback would be to shut off the fan in the building and as recommended already, use a proper sound meter as has been done in other comparisons. 🍻
    Sound meters aren’t cheap, and I’m not exactly a wealthy individual. But maybe someday…
     
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    HPIguy

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    Yep, we've been down this same rabbit hole. Proper DB meters that record that short impulses like gun shots are high dollar, and I'm not aware of any camera gear that will properly represent the impulse noise from gun shots the way it sounds in person. It gets clipped/compressed no matter what from what I've read. Nice video anyway though!
     
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    paco ramirez

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    Very thorough. My only feedback would be to shut off the fan in the building and as recommended already, use a proper sound meter as has been done in other comparisons.
    That would be a big waste of time and especially money.

    Here is some education on silencer sound metering. Most people including manufacturers, distributors, and dealers can't even follow metering protocol properly, let alone all of the various YouTuber "testing" I've seen which is often even more wrong than what some manufacturers do and with even worse sound meters because they're more attainable. All data output by manufacturers, distributors, dealers, and even YouTubers to consumers/viewers is biased regardless of apparent transparency to the consumer/viewer and it often includes fudged metering protocol in one or multiple ways whether intentional or not. Some quick examples are those using only single peak meter data instead of the entire silencer sound waveform, those that don't properly analyze the waveform to insert bias, those that don't put the mic in the right place, those that intentionally push the host with their favored silencer slightly more forward on the mic stand than the competitor silencer, those that do metering under a tent or near a similar structure, those that don't put the silencer muzzle in the exact same location each time, those that use an intentionally slow meter, comparing using different ammo types, comparing using different barrel lengths, etc. Stuff to fool the consumer into believing what that entity wants them to believe, or the entity themselves in their own internal testing as confirmation bias in some instances. The vast majority of consumers/viewers don't have the knowledge base to know that the output data isn't actually useful for comparisons or otherwise for a multitude of reasons and they're easily manipulated by entities such as manufacturers, distributors, dealers, and YouTubers that have ulterior motives into believing whatever those entities want to have them believe about silencer sound as those consumers/viewers very often believe them to be trustworthy "authorities" on the subject of silencer sound and testing simply because they've been doing it that way for years.

    No entity that sells or benefits from the sale of silencers or silencer parts/accessories will ever be able to give unbiased data as proven repeatedly by the last 30+ years of this industry, the data that is output is not objective. Certainly not biased YouTube channels either. With YouTubers and dealers they're often financially and/or emotionally invested in their sound meter because it was expensive and they want to use it to generate views and make money in various ways and recoup the money they spent on the meter once they learn how useless it really is. I've seen quite a few where they were told their data was meaningless and can't be used for anything, comparison or otherwise, then they just say "well Silencer Shop uses the same one" like that actually means something beyond that Silencer Shop's data was also bad.

    Even if tens of thousands of dollars is spent on a meter it's still slow and still only outputs single peak meter data in most cases, which by itself is completely meaningless whether attempted to be used for comparisons or otherwise, or the meter user outright refuses to show consumers/viewers the waveform that it does output for a few reasons chief of which is often that they themselves can't analyze that waveform properly or accurately as they lack the expertise required to do so.

    Using a meter on this YouTube channel would just create another outlet spreading bad data to consumers/viewers. All this guy needs to do in his videos is reference PewScience data, really simple. They're the only silencer specific truly unbiased, engineering consultancy and independent test lab which analyzes the entire silencer sound waveform, which is what really matters for proper and accurate silencer sound comparisons and human ear hearing damage impact, and does so at 1 million data points per second which is around 4x faster than any sound meter this guy would be able to buy even if he actually wanted to spend tens of thousands of dollars. PewScience doesn't sell silencers or silencer products/mounts, they don't make silencers or silencer products/mounts, and they exist to keep dealers, distributors, manufactures, and also YouTubers accountable.

    PewScience is the only valid, unbiased, and accurate silencer sound testing available to consumers and everyone else including manufacturers, dealers, distributors, and YouTubers and it's what everyone should be using and referencing for data. Everything else you see is simply meaningless entertainment for the uninformed consumer/viewer being passed off as science and fact. Single peak meter data alone in meaningless and pretending it has any relevance in 2021 only does consumers and the entire silencer industry a great disservice. It's time people moved out of the dark ages and into the future and started utilizing truly independent, unbiased, meaningful, accurate silencer sound data to make determinations about silencer sound. Stop using candles to light your home and start using lightbulbs.
     

    FuhQ

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    Yep, we've been down this same rabbit hole. Proper DB meters that record that short impulses like gun shots are high dollar, and I'm not aware of any camera gear that will properly represent the impulse noise from gun shots the way it sounds in person. It get clipped/compressed no matter what from what I've read. Nice video anyway though!
    Yep! And thank you! 👍🏼
     
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    FuhQ

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    That would be a big waste of time and especially money.

    Here is some education on silencer sound metering. Most people including manufacturers, distributors, and dealers can't even follow metering protocol properly, let alone all of the various YouTuber "testing" I've seen which is often even more wrong than what some manufacturers do and with even worse sound meters because they're more attainable. All data output by manufacturers, distributors, dealers, and even YouTubers to consumers/viewers is biased regardless of apparent transparency to the consumer/viewer and it often includes fudged metering protocol in one or multiple ways whether intentional or not. Some quick examples are those using only single peak meter data instead of the entire silencer sound waveform, those that don't properly analyze the waveform to insert bias, those that don't put the mic in the right place, those that intentionally push the host with their favored silencer slightly more forward on the mic stand than the competitor silencer, those that do metering under a tent or near a similar structure, those that don't put the silencer muzzle in the exact same location each time, those that use an intentionally slow meter, comparing using different ammo types, comparing using different barrel lengths, etc. Stuff to fool the consumer into believing what that entity wants them to believe, or the entity themselves in their own internal testing as confirmation bias in some instances. The vast majority of consumers/viewers don't have the knowledge base to know that the output data isn't actually useful for comparisons or otherwise for a multitude of reasons and they're easily manipulated by entities such as manufacturers, distributors, dealers, and YouTubers that have ulterior motives into believing whatever those entities want to have them believe about silencer sound as those consumers/viewers very often believe them to be trustworthy "authorities" on the subject of silencer sound and testing simply because they've been doing it that way for years.

    No entity that sells or benefits from the sale of silencers or silencer parts/accessories will ever be able to give unbiased data as proven repeatedly by the last 30+ years of this industry, the data that is output is not objective. Certainly not biased YouTube channels either. With YouTubers and dealers they're often financially and/or emotionally invested in their sound meter because it was expensive and they want to use it to generate views and make money in various ways and recoup the money they spent on the meter once they learn how useless it really is. I've seen quite a few where they were told their data was meaningless and can't be used for anything, comparison or otherwise, then they just say "well Silencer Shop uses the same one" like that actually means something beyond that Silencer Shop's data was also bad.

    Even if tens of thousands of dollars is spent on a meter it's still slow and still only outputs single peak meter data in most cases, which by itself is completely meaningless whether attempted to be used for comparisons or otherwise, or the meter user outright refuses to show consumers/viewers the waveform that it does output for a few reasons chief of which is often that they themselves can't analyze that waveform properly or accurately as they lack the expertise required to do so.

    Using a meter on this YouTube channel would just create another outlet spreading bad data to consumers/viewers. All this guy needs to do in his videos is reference PewScience data, really simple. They're the only silencer specific truly unbiased, engineering consultancy and independent test lab which analyzes the entire silencer sound waveform, which is what really matters for proper and accurate silencer sound comparisons and human ear hearing damage impact, and does so at 1 million data points per second which is around 4x faster than any sound meter this guy would be able to buy even if he actually wanted to spend tens of thousands of dollars. PewScience doesn't sell silencers or silencer products/mounts, they don't make silencers or silencer products/mounts, and they exist to keep dealers, distributors, manufactures, and also YouTubers accountable.

    PewScience is the only valid, unbiased, and accurate silencer sound testing available to consumers and everyone else including manufacturers, dealers, distributors, and YouTubers and it's what everyone should be using and referencing for data. Everything else you see is simply meaningless entertainment for the uninformed consumer/viewer being passed off as science and fact. Single peak meter data alone in meaningless and pretending it has any relevance in 2021 only does consumers and the entire silencer industry a great disservice. It's time people moved out of the dark ages and into the future and started utilizing truly independent, unbiased, meaningful, accurate silencer sound data to make determinations about silencer sound. Stop using candles to light your home and start using lightbulbs.
    Ok..... So..... What did you think of the video? 🤷🏼

    😂

    And for the record, YT is already so saturated with all that shit, I'm not trying to be one of "those youtubers", which is why I don't have any desire to have a sound meter. There's enough shit out there on the google machine, and like you said, Pew Science has most all bases covered, and accurately. I have no affiliation with any company, and these are my personally owned guns and suppressors I paid my own hard-earned money for. I'm just having fun and showing things that might interest some other folks. I'm just trying to show how quiet they are, and how they sound. I'm not trying to be any sort of "authority" on anything. Only people with ego problems, or vested interests, try to be those people.
     

    E. Bryant

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    That would be a big waste of time and especially money.

    Here is some education on silencer sound metering. Most people including manufacturers, distributors, and dealers can't even follow metering protocol properly, let alone all of the various YouTuber "testing" I've seen which is often even more wrong than what some manufacturers do and with even worse sound meters because they're more attainable. All data output by manufacturers, distributors, dealers, and even YouTubers to consumers/viewers is biased regardless of apparent transparency to the consumer/viewer and it often includes fudged metering protocol in one or multiple ways whether intentional or not. Some quick examples are those using only single peak meter data instead of the entire silencer sound waveform, those that don't properly analyze the waveform to insert bias, those that don't put the mic in the right place, those that intentionally push the host with their favored silencer slightly more forward on the mic stand than the competitor silencer, those that do metering under a tent or near a similar structure, those that don't put the silencer muzzle in the exact same location each time, those that use an intentionally slow meter, comparing using different ammo types, comparing using different barrel lengths, etc. Stuff to fool the consumer into believing what that entity wants them to believe, or the entity themselves in their own internal testing as confirmation bias in some instances. The vast majority of consumers/viewers don't have the knowledge base to know that the output data isn't actually useful for comparisons or otherwise for a multitude of reasons and they're easily manipulated by entities such as manufacturers, distributors, dealers, and YouTubers that have ulterior motives into believing whatever those entities want to have them believe about silencer sound as those consumers/viewers very often believe them to be trustworthy "authorities" on the subject of silencer sound and testing simply because they've been doing it that way for years.

    No entity that sells or benefits from the sale of silencers or silencer parts/accessories will ever be able to give unbiased data as proven repeatedly by the last 30+ years of this industry, the data that is output is not objective. Certainly not biased YouTube channels either. With YouTubers and dealers they're often financially and/or emotionally invested in their sound meter because it was expensive and they want to use it to generate views and make money in various ways and recoup the money they spent on the meter once they learn how useless it really is. I've seen quite a few where they were told their data was meaningless and can't be used for anything, comparison or otherwise, then they just say "well Silencer Shop uses the same one" like that actually means something beyond that Silencer Shop's data was also bad.

    Even if tens of thousands of dollars is spent on a meter it's still slow and still only outputs single peak meter data in most cases, which by itself is completely meaningless whether attempted to be used for comparisons or otherwise, or the meter user outright refuses to show consumers/viewers the waveform that it does output for a few reasons chief of which is often that they themselves can't analyze that waveform properly or accurately as they lack the expertise required to do so.

    Using a meter on this YouTube channel would just create another outlet spreading bad data to consumers/viewers. All this guy needs to do in his videos is reference PewScience data, really simple. They're the only silencer specific truly unbiased, engineering consultancy and independent test lab which analyzes the entire silencer sound waveform, which is what really matters for proper and accurate silencer sound comparisons and human ear hearing damage impact, and does so at 1 million data points per second which is around 4x faster than any sound meter this guy would be able to buy even if he actually wanted to spend tens of thousands of dollars. PewScience doesn't sell silencers or silencer products/mounts, they don't make silencers or silencer products/mounts, and they exist to keep dealers, distributors, manufactures, and also YouTubers accountable.

    PewScience is the only valid, unbiased, and accurate silencer sound testing available to consumers and everyone else including manufacturers, dealers, distributors, and YouTubers and it's what everyone should be using and referencing for data. Everything else you see is simply meaningless entertainment for the uninformed consumer/viewer being passed off as science and fact. Single peak meter data alone in meaningless and pretending it has any relevance in 2021 only does consumers and the entire silencer industry a great disservice. It's time people moved out of the dark ages and into the future and started utilizing truly independent, unbiased, meaningful, accurate silencer sound data to make determinations about silencer sound. Stop using candles to light your home and start using lightbulbs.

    I generally like what Jay is doing and I appreciate his efforts, but until he finds a way to disclose his methods, setup, and algorithms to the public - and stops taking money from individual manufacturers to run his testing and publish results - I as a consumer and enthusiast cannot trust the data as unbiased.

    I get that he's invested significant resources into developing his protocol, and that he's trying to run a business. That's great; I love capitalism! But his data cannot presently be verified by a 3rd party, and that's always problematic. I'd have a difficult time going to one of my customers and saying "Yeah, I know that I haven't shown you the equipment used to acquire measurements or the algorithm used to calculate the results, but you'll just have to trust me that it's all very good." :ROFLMAO:

    The pay-to-play part of Jay's business is concerning not because I doubt his integrity (quite the opposite - he's been transparent in who pays for his testing), but rather because it undermines his attempt at establishing a standard. Industry leaders will presumably be hesitant to adapt his proposal if they think it'll permanently tie them to Jay's business (which is probably Jay's goal; it'd certainly be mine). Consumers will be hesitant to adapt the standard if their favorite manufacturers won't play along.

    I don't know if ASA or any other group has been successful in representing the industry as a whole, but to the extent that such a group exists, it'd be wise to look at creating and adapting a standard based upon the work already done by our taxpayer dollars in the form of various US Army ARL papers. Various industry groups like SAE do this all the time. It's OK to charge for such work, just so long that it's transparent and available to anyone.

    Otherwise, perhaps it's time for enthusiasts to put down their tired B&K 2209 meters, pick up the AHAAH model, and start building a measurement standard with the open-source/freeware philosophy. Jay is presumably a smart guy and it'd take some time to duplicate his work, but there are plenty of other smart people who might be up for such a challenge.
     

    FuhQ

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    I generally like what Jay is doing and I appreciate his efforts, but until he finds a way to disclose his methods, setup, and algorithms to the public - and stops taking money from individual manufacturers to run his testing and publish results - I as a consumer and enthusiast cannot trust the data as unbiased.

    I get that he's invested significant resources into developing his protocol, and that he's trying to run a business. That's great; I love capitalism! But his data cannot presently be verified by a 3rd party, and that's always problematic. I'd have a difficult time going to one of my customers and saying "Yeah, I know that I haven't shown you the equipment used to acquire measurements or the algorithm used to calculate the results, but you'll just have to trust me that it's all very good." :ROFLMAO:

    The pay-to-play part of Jay's business is concerning not because I doubt his integrity (quite the opposite - he's been transparent in who pays for his testing), but rather because it undermines his attempt at establishing a standard. Industry leaders will presumably be hesitant to adapt his proposal if they think it'll permanently tie them to Jay's business (which is probably Jay's goal; it'd certainly be mine). Consumers will be hesitant to adapt the standard if their favorite manufacturers won't play along.

    I don't know if ASA or any other group has been successful in representing the industry as a whole, but to the extent that such a group exists, it'd be wise to look at creating and adapting a standard based upon the work already done by our taxpayer dollars in the form of various US Army ARL papers. Various industry groups like SAE do this all the time. It's OK to charge for such work, just so long that it's transparent and available to anyone.

    Otherwise, perhaps it's time for enthusiasts to put down their tired B&K 2209 meters, pick up the AHAAH model, and start building a measurement standard with the open-source/freeware philosophy. Jay is presumably a smart guy and it'd take some time to duplicate his work, but there are plenty of other smart people who might be up for such a challenge.
    I agree. I think Jay is doing great things, and is an honest guy, but I would also love to see an industry-wide TRUE standard for DB measurement, sound, wave testing, etc… that way it would be an established spec and protocol, so testing can be done as openly, transparently, and as concentrically among all manufacturers and models of suppressors, to establish a solid baseline for comparisons.
     
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    HansohnBrothers

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    I generally like what Jay is doing and I appreciate his efforts, but until he finds a way to disclose his methods, setup, and algorithms to the public - and stops taking money from individual manufacturers to run his testing and publish results - I as a consumer and enthusiast cannot trust the data as unbiased.

    I get that he's invested significant resources into developing his protocol, and that he's trying to run a business. That's great; I love capitalism! But his data cannot presently be verified by a 3rd party, and that's always problematic. I'd have a difficult time going to one of my customers and saying "Yeah, I know that I haven't shown you the equipment used to acquire measurements or the algorithm used to calculate the results, but you'll just have to trust me that it's all very good." :ROFLMAO:

    The pay-to-play part of Jay's business is concerning not because I doubt his integrity (quite the opposite - he's been transparent in who pays for his testing), but rather because it undermines his attempt at establishing a standard. Industry leaders will presumably be hesitant to adapt his proposal if they think it'll permanently tie them to Jay's business (which is probably Jay's goal; it'd certainly be mine). Consumers will be hesitant to adapt the standard if their favorite manufacturers won't play along.

    I don't know if ASA or any other group has been successful in representing the industry as a whole, but to the extent that such a group exists, it'd be wise to look at creating and adapting a standard based upon the work already done by our taxpayer dollars in the form of various US Army ARL papers. Various industry groups like SAE do this all the time. It's OK to charge for such work, just so long that it's transparent and available to anyone.

    Otherwise, perhaps it's time for enthusiasts to put down their tired B&K 2209 meters, pick up the AHAAH model, and start building a measurement standard with the open-source/freeware philosophy. Jay is presumably a smart guy and it'd take some time to duplicate his work, but there are plenty of other smart people who might be up for such a challenge.
    Jay is doing good work and I'm certain he isn't skewing the numbers at all in any way or bias. He is pushing us and others to provide a more complete picture of sound measurement. The tools are out there and the minimum specs are published in 1474E. B&K and NI both make products that meet and exceed that spec. We have the B&K Pulse and are also using the AHAAH program to additionally analyze the waveforms.

    There is definitely a need to standardize the test protocols as an industry in order to keep everyone honest; manufacturers, dealers and YouTube personalities alike with standard scientific methods.
     
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    FuhQ

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    Man, there's nearly 450 views on this thread... There should be AT LEAST as many views on my video...If not more... Come on folks! Watching 1:45 video isn't going to waste your life away... And hitting a like or subscribe button won't send you into an alternate dimension. 😂
     

    J McGriddle

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    I have been on the fence about the Nomad LT. Have you tried it on a precision rifle yet? Any numbers on POI shift?
     

    FuhQ

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    I have been on the fence about the Nomad LT. Have you tried it on a precision rifle yet? Any numbers on POI shift?
    Yes. Go to my YT channel and look. I've got a video on there of shooting it on my R700 5R Milspec .260 Rem. Should be the 3rd most recent upload. 👍🏼

    POI shift was virtually nil (VERY minimal), but like always, there will be a slight bit with ANY suppressor or weight added to the end of the barrel. It might have been a shift of maybe an inch northeast of the normal (unsuppressed) POI. But once you get a suppressor, you are not very likely to ever shoot a threaded rifle unsuppressed again, if you don't have to... Just food for thought. So, that being said, since you will most likely always be shooting with the suppressor, POI shift isn't really a thing. 😏

    If you're on the fence about a Nomad-LT on a precision or hunting rifle... It's a no-brainer! Get one! You will be shocked how quiet it is, and how well it tames-down the volume.
     

    FuhQ

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    In jail for eternity, my Nomad, not me…
    It seems like it, I know. Mine took 8 months. When I bought it, they said they were seeing 4-6 months, then the election SHTF and everyone submitted Form 4's, and it ended up taking 8. But it's been home for a month now, and it's here to stay. 👍🏼

    My recommendation, is if you can afford it, about every 3-6 months, buy another one and keep the rotation going. Otherwise, it feels like a forever wait each time.
     

    FuhQ

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    I have been on the fence about the Nomad LT. Have you tried it on a precision rifle yet? Any numbers on POI shift?
    Found a link...

     

    BuildingConceptsllc

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    Awesome! Glad I can help! If it's going to be a bolt-action, or a rifle you won't be shooting any short-barrels, or fast shot strings with...I highly recommend looking at the Nomad-LT due to the weight savings over a regular Nomad-L. I think it's almost 10oz difference in them! The Nomad-LT with the factory Ti 5/8x24 DT end cap is only like 12 oz total. It's SUPER light. Great for hunting rifles.
    How does it do in terms of heat and causing issues with heat / mirage due to it being titanium. I have a short Ti Nomad in jail but have been looking for a LT also, the faster heating up of titanium is the only question I had about it.
     

    FuhQ

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    How does it do in terms of heat and causing issues with heat / mirage due to it being titanium. I have a short Ti Nomad in jail but have been looking for a LT also, the faster heating up of titanium is the only question I had about it.
    After about 10 shots from my .260 Rem, with only enough time to single-shot load another one in the chamber, the mirage gets pretty bad, even with the thermal wrap. The Ti cans do heat up pretty damn fast. That's the only downfall to them. 5 shot strings, or 10 shot very slow strings, then letting it cool way down, you should be alight...Depending on what you're shooting, of course. I wouldn't do more than 5 shots from any magnum cartridge through one. That's a lot of heat. No sense in causing premature wear.
     

    BuildingConceptsllc

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    After about 10 shots from my .260 Rem, with only enough time to single-shot load another one in the chamber, the mirage gets pretty bad, even with the thermal wrap. The Ti cans do heat up pretty damn fast. That's the only downfall to them. 5 shot strings, or 10 shot very slow strings, then letting it cool way down, you should be alight...Depending on what you're shooting, of course. I wouldn't do more than 5 shots from any magnum cartridge through one. That's a lot of heat. No sense in causing premature wear.
    I wonder how that compares to the steel nomad? I know it will heat up slower but it will hold that heat longer too,, so I wonder what that translate to in a comparison over day 40 rounds in a bolt gun shot over say 20 minutes
     

    FuhQ

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    I wonder how that compares to the steel nomad? I know it will heat up slower but it will hold that heat longer too,, so I wonder what that translate to in a comparison over day 40 rounds in a bolt gun shot over say 20 minutes
    The regular Nomad-L is heavy as hell, so keep that in mind. It might be worth it to just get the LT and time your shots, or keep it open with no thermal wrap on it while doing long strings like that. I'm sure @Mageever has some better info and input on this, as they were his designs. Hopefully he'll respond. 👍🏼
     

    BuildingConceptsllc

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    The regular Nomad-L is heavy as hell, so keep that in mind. It might be worth it to just get the LT and time your shots, or keep it open with no thermal wrap on it while doing long strings like that. I'm sure @Mageever has some better info and input on this, as they were his designs. Hopefully he'll respond. 👍🏼
    I have a titanium can already. I'm not all that concerned about the L vs the 30. It gets pretty old waiting to be able to see though, so if I could find out about the steel vs titanium somehow, it would be a big help. I might test my titanium can vs my other steel can and see what the difference is. I would think the results would be similar with the 2 nomad versions
     
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    BamaSE

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    I have both the Nomad 30 Ti and steel….as pointed out the Ti does get hot really fast. I have not paid much mind to the mirage part as both are on night rigs with thermals and I have not done much other than sight them in and hunt….but have not noticed the suppressor in the scope after multiple shots🤷🏼‍♂️

    I did notice that the Ti did have an effect on recoil with the .308 sbr. It was almost too light. When tracking a sounder a few nights ago with follow up shots I was having difficulty staying on them after each shot….and having to respond more to the shot than I am used too. I swapped the Ti over to the 16” .308 and put the steel on the sbr to add a little more forward weight. Have killed with both since the swap but nothing that required a follow up shot….seemed to balance out better for both platforms.
     

    BuildingConceptsllc

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    I have both the Nomad 30 Ti and steel….as pointed out the Ti does get hot really fast. I have not paid much mind to the mirage part as both are on night rigs with thermals and I have not done much other than sight them in and hunt….but have not noticed the suppressor in the scope after multiple shots🤷🏼‍♂️

    I did notice that the Ti did have an effect on recoil with the .308 sbr. It was almost too light. When tracking a sounder a few nights ago with follow up shots I was having difficulty staying on them after each shot….and having to respond more to the shot than I am used too. I swapped the Ti over to the 16” .308 and put the steel on the sbr to add a little more forward weight. Have killed with both since the swap but nothing that required a follow up shot….seemed to balance out better for both platforms.
    I usually have to shoot about 6 ish rounds before it starts and it doesn't take a long time to dissipate, but still, I think the steel might be a better performer for that purpose, but I'm not sure. I definitely wouldn't get the steel for only a slight difference, I'd rather have the light weight. If it were a fairly significant difference, I'd get a nomad 30 to add to the nomad Ti. The nomad TL seems to be impossible to get right now anyway so I will likely have time to test my 2 cans for that purpose before the TL is even available again anyway
     

    BamaSE

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    I usually have to shoot about 6 ish rounds before it starts and it doesn't take a long time to dissipate, but still, I think the steel might be a better performer for that purpose, but I'm not sure. I definitely wouldn't get the steel for only a slight difference, I'd rather have the light weight. If it were a fairly significant difference, I'd get a nomad 30 to add to the nomad Ti. The nomad TL seems to be impossible to get right now anyway so I will likely have time to test my 2 cans for that purpose before the TL is even available again anyway
    On the flip side the Ti does cool down quicker….that is noticeable….at least with my highly subjective grab the mutha and see if it leaves skin test😁

    I think the weight savings is definitely worthwhile outside of my specific experience on the sbr. I did call DA and ask them about heat, wear, and timing of shots….I’d encourage anyone with concerns to do the same….no matter who the manufacturer is….but the guy was patient with my questions, and I left off satisfied I am GTG for my use. I do run a Cherry Bomb instead of direct thread too.
     

    BuildingConceptsllc

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    On the flip side the Ti does cool down quicker….that is noticeable….at least with my highly subjective grab the mutha and see if it leaves skin test😁

    I think the weight savings is definitely worthwhile outside of my specific experience on the sbr. I did call DA and ask them about heat, wear, and timing of shots….I’d encourage anyone with concerns to do the same….no matter who the manufacturer is….but the guy was patient with my questions, and I left off satisfied I am GTG for my use. I do run a Cherry Bomb instead of direct thread too.
    Yeah, it does cool faster and I suspect the nomad will cool faster than my current ti can. That's a good idea to call them, I will definitely do that. I use the yhm breaks and qd mounts on all of my rifles and cabs. I think the cherry bomb helps with sound a little bit more though.
     
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    FuhQ

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    New video comparing my Dead Air Sandman-S & Nomad-LT with my Otter Creek Labs Hydrogen-S on my new 10" .300 BLK build. I'm using a non-magnified EOTech 512 with the A65 "donut of death" reticle to holdover and hit a 10" steel gong at 200 yards.

     
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