So I've been looking to get a new gun for a while now and haven't yet decided what i want but i have my eye on a few but would like your guys opinions on some stuff.I am looking for a gun that i can hunt with /have some fun with at the ranges and i would like to have a gun i could shoot out to 600+ yards with to have some fun every now and again. First off and my main concern is that from looking around i have seen a lot of pictures/ range reports on bolt action 308's but not very many of AR platforms past 100yrds now my question although it may sound very "noobish" is there a difference between the range on the AR's compared to the bolt actions in a 308? Or does the difference between a semi to a bolt action have no effect on the range efficiency of the buller? I have been looking at the GAP 10 and the MK12 MOD1 for the AR's but also a few different bolt actions. So if anyone has any input at all please post and let me know what your opinions are.
New guy needs some advice!
- Thread starter Ham
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Re: New guy needs some advice!
There is no difference in the distance/range between a bolt or semi. The difference lies in the accuracy of the two different platforms.
It's easier to shoot an accurate group with a bolt than it is a semi because the bolt doesn't have the recoil impulse that you experience with a semi as a result of the moving parts i.e. the gas or piston cycling the action of the semi and loading another round.
Whereas both platforms are known to be sub-moa and some even sub-half-moa, it's easier to achieve with a bolt action.
There is no difference in the distance/range between a bolt or semi. The difference lies in the accuracy of the two different platforms.
It's easier to shoot an accurate group with a bolt than it is a semi because the bolt doesn't have the recoil impulse that you experience with a semi as a result of the moving parts i.e. the gas or piston cycling the action of the semi and loading another round.
Whereas both platforms are known to be sub-moa and some even sub-half-moa, it's easier to achieve with a bolt action.
Re: New guy needs some advice!
I agree in principle.
I think the main question should be, do your applications require rapid fire?
If not, then I don't see much advantage to having the Semi. The bolt gun is simpler, usually lighter, and usually easier to shoot to its best accuracy potential. Less extra parts to carry around, fewer protrusions to work around when getting ready to fire.
If I absolutely must have a Semi, my Garand is all I'd really be wanting, and handling one is less alien to the bolt gun shooter than working with the AR system. Also, IMHO, with good iron sight upgrades, the Garand shoots as well with irons as it might with a scope. There is no great disadvantage to shooting a Garand with iron sights.
Unless you are seeking ultra precision accuracy, most of the midrange hunting rifles on the market are fully adequate. I recently acquired a Savage 10 Predator Hunter Max I chambered in .260 Rem and I think it's an excellent all around rifle. Accurate enough to be competitive in match shooting, handy and smooth operating enough to be useful on the hunt, plenty of terminal energy for all but the largest game, like brown bear. It's available in other chamberings, but none of them is .308.
Used to be that you had to handload to use the .260, but a quick search turned up ten different, decent .260 offerings just at Sportsman's Guide alone, and many other suppliers as well.
For something with more reach and punch (.260 to .338 LM), the Savage 11/111 Long Range Hunter works too.
Greg
I agree in principle.
I think the main question should be, do your applications require rapid fire?
If not, then I don't see much advantage to having the Semi. The bolt gun is simpler, usually lighter, and usually easier to shoot to its best accuracy potential. Less extra parts to carry around, fewer protrusions to work around when getting ready to fire.
If I absolutely must have a Semi, my Garand is all I'd really be wanting, and handling one is less alien to the bolt gun shooter than working with the AR system. Also, IMHO, with good iron sight upgrades, the Garand shoots as well with irons as it might with a scope. There is no great disadvantage to shooting a Garand with iron sights.
Unless you are seeking ultra precision accuracy, most of the midrange hunting rifles on the market are fully adequate. I recently acquired a Savage 10 Predator Hunter Max I chambered in .260 Rem and I think it's an excellent all around rifle. Accurate enough to be competitive in match shooting, handy and smooth operating enough to be useful on the hunt, plenty of terminal energy for all but the largest game, like brown bear. It's available in other chamberings, but none of them is .308.
Used to be that you had to handload to use the .260, but a quick search turned up ten different, decent .260 offerings just at Sportsman's Guide alone, and many other suppliers as well.
For something with more reach and punch (.260 to .338 LM), the Savage 11/111 Long Range Hunter works too.
Greg
Re: New guy needs some advice!
Everyone should have a good accurate bolt-action .308 with some nice glass on it.. everyone.
All joking aside, I've fallen in love with the POF rifles, especially the 30 cals.
I'm playing with 6.5's now and blow peoples minds all the time engaging steel from a round (6.5 Grendel) that fits into a standard length ar15 mag.
I'm currently waiting on a DPMS 6.5 Creedmoor and expect good things from that w/the factory A-MAX loads.
Everyone should have a good accurate bolt-action .308 with some nice glass on it.. everyone.
All joking aside, I've fallen in love with the POF rifles, especially the 30 cals.
I'm playing with 6.5's now and blow peoples minds all the time engaging steel from a round (6.5 Grendel) that fits into a standard length ar15 mag.
I'm currently waiting on a DPMS 6.5 Creedmoor and expect good things from that w/the factory A-MAX loads.
Re: New guy needs some advice!
No, there is no difference in the velocity of cartridges exiting a semi-automatic, or bolt action firearm. I think the misconception you have lies in the ranges that the rifles were designed for, as most AR's are not designed to shoot Sub-MOA, but rather to engage man-sized targets, where the difference between 1 and 1.5MOA doesn't matter that much.
I would suggest you look into a bolt-action. Especially as you're new, the initial outlay cost is substantially less than an AR. Offerings from Remington, Savage, Tikka and even Howa are all blindingly accurate and can be had for under $1000. The money you save by getting a boltgun can be spent on high-quality scopes, rings and mounts.
If you're new to all the shooting sports and don't own a firearm, I would suggest against jumping into a .308Win or even a .223Rem. Rather, get your hands on a .22LR, and work on basic marksmanship, and once you've practiced that enough, move up to a larger calibre. I spent almost 4 years learning on nothing but .22's before i got my hands on a .222 Remington. And i would probably shoot around 10 rounds of .22LR for every 1 round of .308 when i'm at the range.
the CZ 452 and 455 are both excellent little shooters, and can be had for a decent price, and the quality and finish is excellent.
No, there is no difference in the velocity of cartridges exiting a semi-automatic, or bolt action firearm. I think the misconception you have lies in the ranges that the rifles were designed for, as most AR's are not designed to shoot Sub-MOA, but rather to engage man-sized targets, where the difference between 1 and 1.5MOA doesn't matter that much.
I would suggest you look into a bolt-action. Especially as you're new, the initial outlay cost is substantially less than an AR. Offerings from Remington, Savage, Tikka and even Howa are all blindingly accurate and can be had for under $1000. The money you save by getting a boltgun can be spent on high-quality scopes, rings and mounts.
If you're new to all the shooting sports and don't own a firearm, I would suggest against jumping into a .308Win or even a .223Rem. Rather, get your hands on a .22LR, and work on basic marksmanship, and once you've practiced that enough, move up to a larger calibre. I spent almost 4 years learning on nothing but .22's before i got my hands on a .222 Remington. And i would probably shoot around 10 rounds of .22LR for every 1 round of .308 when i'm at the range.
the CZ 452 and 455 are both excellent little shooters, and can be had for a decent price, and the quality and finish is excellent.
Re: New guy needs some advice!
I love it when new shooters ask questions. The more knowledgeable people always have something to say that I, too, wasn't aware of. I wouldn't disagree with anything written here so far. But there is even more to the accuracy equation than has been written so far.
What ever you decide to buy, work on your shooting skills. The average shooter never lives up to the accuracy inherent in an average rifle much less a tricked out rifle. Not that there are any average shooters on this site. A great many shooters just can't believe that the accuracy problem is with them.
I love it when new shooters ask questions. The more knowledgeable people always have something to say that I, too, wasn't aware of. I wouldn't disagree with anything written here so far. But there is even more to the accuracy equation than has been written so far.
What ever you decide to buy, work on your shooting skills. The average shooter never lives up to the accuracy inherent in an average rifle much less a tricked out rifle. Not that there are any average shooters on this site. A great many shooters just can't believe that the accuracy problem is with them.
Re: New guy needs some advice!
And also, remember the fundamentals of marksmanship.
Slow your breathing to where you can squeeze the trigger between heartbeats with a shooting position has minimal impact on the movement of the rifle. Shooting from a bipod in the prone position with a bag rest under the stock and my left hand supporting the bag seems to be the best way for me to consistently engage long-range targets.
And also, remember the fundamentals of marksmanship.
Slow your breathing to where you can squeeze the trigger between heartbeats with a shooting position has minimal impact on the movement of the rifle. Shooting from a bipod in the prone position with a bag rest under the stock and my left hand supporting the bag seems to be the best way for me to consistently engage long-range targets.
Re: New guy needs some advice!
GAP-10, very accurate semi 308. Cant go wrong with it especially if 600 yards is where you see yourself shooting.
GAP-10, very accurate semi 308. Cant go wrong with it especially if 600 yards is where you see yourself shooting.
Re: New guy needs some advice!
I just want to say Thanks to everyone who posted it was good to hear all your opinions. If you guys think of anything else that will help me in choosing the right rifle please feel free to post.
Again thanks everyone,
Cody
I just want to say Thanks to everyone who posted it was good to hear all your opinions. If you guys think of anything else that will help me in choosing the right rifle please feel free to post.
Again thanks everyone,
Cody
Re: New guy needs some advice!
I would remind you that it's all about what you want your rifle to do.
Rifles are better than handguns at any beyond-rock-throwing-distance because they have longer barrels. Then folks go with shorter barrels because they might, someday, maybe, have to shoot the rifle indoors.
Shoot the rifle indoors. Right. Isn't that what handguns are supposed to be for?
If that's not enough gun, get a youth shotgun. Short enough, and definitely not coming up short with the energy output. IMHO, 20ga is plenty much enough for anything you might need to use indoors.
How many of us actually will? I think that's a fair question. When we're done doing that, what comes next? Best time to think about unintended consequences is before they become a concrete issue.
Where rifles are concerned, shortening barrels is sorta like clipping the wings on your cargo plane. If you want to shoot at rifle distances, I don't see how handicapping the key component is helping.
If I want to shoot shorter-to-mid ranges, that's what they make carbines for. But carbines aren't rifles.
It all goes back to what you need the rifle for. If you're gonna reach out and touch, the longer barrel rules.
The shorter barrel can be made to perform, pretty much, but I really don't think that's the best way to employ a short barrel. Like I said, carbines, shorter-to-mid range, like I use my carbine, in the woods.
The thing about the longer barrel isn't how much velocity it can deliver, but how it can deliver a moderate, adequate velocity without withering the bore to a crisp.
Chamberings.
IMHO, there is danged little room left in this world for wildcats. Maybe the same for AI's. When one considers the literally hundreds of chamberings in existence, where, pray tell, do we fit another one whose capability is not already covered by at least one or two already in existence?
When you take the time to stop and think about the AI's, their justification is that they have more capability than their parent cartridge. If they are not driven at high-to-full throttle, they don't deliver that added potential. So by definition, they are intended to run at bore withering pressures and temperatures. If you can afford to run in the fast lane where barrel replacements are concerned, that's no big issue. Most of us can't, though.
Then there's the magnums. They have a niche. I think it's a lot smaller than many others think. Personally, although I actually own one (I inherited a 7mm Mag), I have yet to shoot it. The largest case capacity I actually shoot is the .30-'06/.280 Rem. If it does more than what they can do, I have yet to find a practical use for it.
Those calibers are reserved for bigger game, or target work out at and beyond 1000yd. For defeating the wily paperbeast out in its chosen habitat, the 1000yd line; I find the .260 Rem is just about right. And BTW, I wouldn't willingly stand in front of that same target out there, either.
For shorter distances, my 94AE Trapper Carbine shoots .44 Mag., which I would consider a very good big game cartridge for non-dangerous game in a wooded environment with limited sight lines.
The problem for me, is that the true magnums are what's called overbore. Their case capacity is such that everything inside the bore is subjected to additional pressure and heat; and there we are, back to withering the bore to a crisp. If you really need more energy, use a bigger bullet, not a smaller one running hypersonic. If the .30-'06 isn't enough gun (perish the day), consider the .35 Whelen.
For really long distances, the magnum comes into its own. If you're gonna go there, go big. If you're gonna go there often, the more specialized systems are called for. Just keep in mind the bit I mentioned back there about what you'd gonna actually need a rifle for. How well you answer such questions will determine the larger part of your smile quotient.
Finally, there's practice. Actually, that and training should come first and foremost.
Unless the rounds you shoot <span style="font-style: italic">with any particular rifle</span> are being used for its primary purpose, you're wasting bore life and ammunition. Training, practice, just fun plinking, etc., are what the rimfire is for.
Get a basic, reliable .22LR. Nothing fancy or ultra accurate is needed; just something whose performance reflects <span style="font-style: italic">your own</span> skill level on that given day with some consistency is all you need. Whatever does that with the least cost is preferable. That's the reason we use the .22LR; to save costs in ammo and bore life.
Greg
I would remind you that it's all about what you want your rifle to do.
Rifles are better than handguns at any beyond-rock-throwing-distance because they have longer barrels. Then folks go with shorter barrels because they might, someday, maybe, have to shoot the rifle indoors.
Shoot the rifle indoors. Right. Isn't that what handguns are supposed to be for?
If that's not enough gun, get a youth shotgun. Short enough, and definitely not coming up short with the energy output. IMHO, 20ga is plenty much enough for anything you might need to use indoors.
How many of us actually will? I think that's a fair question. When we're done doing that, what comes next? Best time to think about unintended consequences is before they become a concrete issue.
Where rifles are concerned, shortening barrels is sorta like clipping the wings on your cargo plane. If you want to shoot at rifle distances, I don't see how handicapping the key component is helping.
If I want to shoot shorter-to-mid ranges, that's what they make carbines for. But carbines aren't rifles.
It all goes back to what you need the rifle for. If you're gonna reach out and touch, the longer barrel rules.
The shorter barrel can be made to perform, pretty much, but I really don't think that's the best way to employ a short barrel. Like I said, carbines, shorter-to-mid range, like I use my carbine, in the woods.
The thing about the longer barrel isn't how much velocity it can deliver, but how it can deliver a moderate, adequate velocity without withering the bore to a crisp.
Chamberings.
IMHO, there is danged little room left in this world for wildcats. Maybe the same for AI's. When one considers the literally hundreds of chamberings in existence, where, pray tell, do we fit another one whose capability is not already covered by at least one or two already in existence?
When you take the time to stop and think about the AI's, their justification is that they have more capability than their parent cartridge. If they are not driven at high-to-full throttle, they don't deliver that added potential. So by definition, they are intended to run at bore withering pressures and temperatures. If you can afford to run in the fast lane where barrel replacements are concerned, that's no big issue. Most of us can't, though.
Then there's the magnums. They have a niche. I think it's a lot smaller than many others think. Personally, although I actually own one (I inherited a 7mm Mag), I have yet to shoot it. The largest case capacity I actually shoot is the .30-'06/.280 Rem. If it does more than what they can do, I have yet to find a practical use for it.
Those calibers are reserved for bigger game, or target work out at and beyond 1000yd. For defeating the wily paperbeast out in its chosen habitat, the 1000yd line; I find the .260 Rem is just about right. And BTW, I wouldn't willingly stand in front of that same target out there, either.
For shorter distances, my 94AE Trapper Carbine shoots .44 Mag., which I would consider a very good big game cartridge for non-dangerous game in a wooded environment with limited sight lines.
The problem for me, is that the true magnums are what's called overbore. Their case capacity is such that everything inside the bore is subjected to additional pressure and heat; and there we are, back to withering the bore to a crisp. If you really need more energy, use a bigger bullet, not a smaller one running hypersonic. If the .30-'06 isn't enough gun (perish the day), consider the .35 Whelen.
For really long distances, the magnum comes into its own. If you're gonna go there, go big. If you're gonna go there often, the more specialized systems are called for. Just keep in mind the bit I mentioned back there about what you'd gonna actually need a rifle for. How well you answer such questions will determine the larger part of your smile quotient.
Finally, there's practice. Actually, that and training should come first and foremost.
Unless the rounds you shoot <span style="font-style: italic">with any particular rifle</span> are being used for its primary purpose, you're wasting bore life and ammunition. Training, practice, just fun plinking, etc., are what the rimfire is for.
Get a basic, reliable .22LR. Nothing fancy or ultra accurate is needed; just something whose performance reflects <span style="font-style: italic">your own</span> skill level on that given day with some consistency is all you need. Whatever does that with the least cost is preferable. That's the reason we use the .22LR; to save costs in ammo and bore life.
Greg
