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Gunsmithing New Proof Research Press Release

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Minuteman
    • Apr 12, 2001
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    Base of the Rockies
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    PROOF Research acquires Performance Polymer Solutions, Inc. (P[SUP]2[/SUP]SI) Manufacturer of Advanced Engineered Materials​
    Columbia Falls, MT – PROOF Research, maker of carbon fiber rifle barrels, composite components for firearms, match-grade steel barrels, and complete rifle systems announced today that it has reached an agreement to acquire Dayton, Ohio-based Performance Polymer Solutions (P[SUP]2[/SUP]SI), a producer of novel next-generation materials.
    P[SUP]2[/SUP]SI’s world-leading product portfolio includes proprietary, high-performance resins, state-of-the-art structural prepregs and high durability adhesive materials with service temperatures of over 1000°F. The company provides enabling composite material solutions and develops manufacturing processes for customers in the aerospace, defense, and consumer products industries as well as actively engaging in exploratory research.
    P[SUP]2[/SUP]SI’s products are used in the production of advanced platforms such as the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter and was recently awarded “Supplier of the Year” by Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company for their exceptional support of an Advanced Development Programs project for which P[SUP]2[/SUP]SI supplied a complete, high-temperature, advanced composite materials turnkey solution.
    PROOF Research is committed to science-driven solutions that lighten warfighter load while increasing effectiveness. The acquisition of P[SUP]2[/SUP]SI highlights their commitment to revolutionize firearm carbon fiber technologies. Combining P[SUP]2[/SUP]SI’s novel aerospace materials, design concepts, and manufacturing methodologies with Proof Research’s elite weapons systems and components creates a powerful platform capable of launching a new class of products for both the defense industry and commercial markets.
    “P[SUP]2[/SUP]SI has an outstanding reputation in the materials technology industry,” said PROOF Research CEO, Pat Rainey. “Bringing them under the Proof Research umbrella positions us uniquely in the industry. We now have start-to-finish control over every component and material that goes into our carbon fiber-wrapped barrels as well as the ability to continuously develop game-changing new products.”
    P[SUP]2[/SUP]SI will continue to deliver innovative solutions to new and existing customers while playing a key role in developing the next generation of PROOF Research products. For more information about Performance Polymer Solutions (P[SUP]2[/SUP]SI) visit: Performance High Temperature Polymer Based Structural Materials from P2SI

    About PROOF Research
    Based in Montana, PROOF Research is a science-driven manufacturer of latest technology carbon-fiber barrels, composite stocks, complete weapon systems, and steel barrels. www.proofresearch.com
     
    vonbalkenbush said:
    Interesting, good to know. I hear their tubes are pricey. $400-$600 range??? Is that ballpark for a 6mm-.308 cal in the 24"-26" range?
    Click to expand...
    $400-$600 price for a carbon wrapped barrel, single point / cut rifled barrel? The last price I was quoted was $910. However, that has been almost 2 years since I spoke with anyone from Proof. Maybe the prices have come down.
     
    I’ve followed these carbon wrapped barrel processes for a long time. From a physics stand point carbon is an insulator. In the past as much as some manufactures have stated that their particular carbon wrap doesn’t act as an insulator and dissipates heat quicker than steel. I believe this has been disproved time and again. The adhesives used in the wrapping process have also played a part in how well the wrapping process worked or didn’t work. In addition how much does the adhesives’ being used contribute to the insulating or heat dissipating process?

    My thought is carbon is carbon, it’s still an insulator, you can’t change the physics of carbon properties. Is this new product an actual carbon fiber wrap or some other material that is being called carbon fiber? How does the wrap and adhesives work under extreme heat! Most of the prior carbon wrapped barrels bubbled up under extreme heat or the adhesives broke down.

    Sorry not trying to be a naysayer, just trying to understand.
     
    Jeff in TX said:
    I’ve followed these carbon wrapped barrel processes for a long time. From a physics stand point carbon is an insulator. In the past as much as some manufactures have stated that their particular carbon wrap doesn’t act as an insulator and dissipates heat quicker than steel. I believe this has been disproved time and again. The adhesives used in the wrapping process have also played a part in how well the wrapping process worked or didn’t work. In addition how much does the adhesives’ being used contribute to the insulating or heat dissipating process?

    My thought is carbon is carbon, it’s still an insulator, you can’t change the physics of carbon properties. Is this new product an actual carbon fiber wrap or some other material that is being called carbon fiber? How does the wrap and adhesives work under extreme heat! Most of the prior carbon wrapped barrels bubbled up under extreme heat or the adhesives broke down.

    Sorry not trying to be a naysayer, just trying to understand.
    Click to expand...

    Carbon is a very, very good thermal conductor, not an insulator. It's the plastic "glue" that holds the carbon together that turns the whole thing into an insulator. But yes, with traditional laminated/wrapped composites, you'd wind up with a thinner barrel getting hotter and being insulated from releasing the heat by the carbon fiber composite. I would assume that would decrease barrel life a bit. How much depends on how much hotter it gets, I'd think. Maybe that's a good tradeoff for certain applications. It's tough to know how bad the problem is without some data. Just feeling the outside of the barrel will not tell you much - it's the inside that counts. Although if you pop off a few rounds and hte outside is still cool, I'd be concerned that the inside was scorching.

    But... there exist such exotic animals as carbon-carbon composites like those used in racing brakes that are very conductive. I also just checked out the P2SI site, and they seem to be making a big deal out of their "high thermal conductivity" and "high temperature" prepregs and moldings. I haven't been in the business for quite some years now, so I don't know if that's a relative term and they still suck, or a truly conductive laminate/wrap.

    Unfortunately, Proof is pretty brief about it on their website. They just say their barrels work and everyone else "uses the wrong carbon". Not terribly convincing, but it doesn't mean they haven't figured it out.
     
    Last edited:
    Damoncali,

    Many thanks for your feedback and insight. Like you reading their website didn't leave me with any convincing information that they solve the insulating issues or how. Time and testing will tell.
     
    Yeah, they could do a better job. It's also an open question as to whether or not it needs to be solved. If they can use a high temperature, durable matrix that isn't a good thermal conductor and that results in a 25% reduction (total wild as guess) in barrel life, then that might be an acceptable situation for whoever it is that buys these things. Personally, I want my barrels heavy and cheap. But that's just me. To each his own.

    I would also be concerned about the durability of the composites. A huge problem in composite design is building something than can take loads outside of the intended directions. Impact loads on the face of a plate, for example are a tough problem, and can easily cause delaminations that are invisible to the eye, but are nonetheless structural dead zones. You could imagine a similar situation with barrels. I have no idea how or if they solved that problem either. But in general, banging around a composite structure is a bad idea. And barrels are structural parts- the integrity of the composites will determine how they vibrate.

    I wish they'd be more forthcoming just because I find this stuff really interesting. I'd also like to see how unwrapped barrels (exact same liner, but no composites installed) shoot. Just for the heck of it. As far as I'm concerned the "stiffer is better" approach is still a partly open question.
     
    PM's are a horrible way to get a hold of me brother. Phones and emails are daunting enough, let alone PM's on all the sites I'm on, FB, etc... Your best bet is to call us. Just like it says in the sig line.
     
    Jeff in TX said:
    I’ve followed these carbon wrapped barrel processes for a long time. From a physics stand point carbon is an insulator. In the past as much as some manufactures have stated that their particular carbon wrap doesn’t act as an insulator and dissipates heat quicker than steel. I believe this has been disproved time and again. The adhesives used in the wrapping process have also played a part in how well the wrapping process worked or didn’t work. In addition how much does the adhesives’ being used contribute to the insulating or heat dissipating process?

    My thought is carbon is carbon, it’s still an insulator, you can’t change the physics of carbon properties. Is this new product an actual carbon fiber wrap or some other material that is being called carbon fiber? How does the wrap and adhesives work under extreme heat! Most of the prior carbon wrapped barrels bubbled up under extreme heat or the adhesives broke down.

    Sorry not trying to be a naysayer, just trying to understand.
    Click to expand...

    I have fired several suppressors made from carbon fiber, they glowed red after auto fire, but were cool to the touch in a short amount of time. "Carbon is carbon", graphite is almost pure carbon, diamonds are almost pure carbon, I think the bonds may have a little tiny bit to do with the property of the pure carbon.

    I took 5 seconds worth of search time and came up with this interesting article:


    Carbon Fiber Technology Dissipates Heat at Least Twice as Efficiently as Aluminum

    ThermoComposite LLC

    ThermoComposite technology moves thermal energy unidirectionally

    Heat is certainly the enemy of electronics, but that´s not the only instance where shedding heat is important. From brake shoes to internal combustion engines to electricity transmission to orbital habitats, thermal management is a prime goal of much of engineering. Fans, heat sinks, and radiators all attempt to move heat from someplace where it´s not wanted to someplace where it is. Aluminum is a favored material for heat transfer. Aluminum conducts thermal energy at 218 Watts per meter-Kelvin (W/m-k), a metric measure of heat transfer.

    But if microprocessors operated at 30GHz instead of their current maximum around 3GHz, heat transfer technology would be faced with dumping the heat output from a chip that would be -- proportionately -- the equivalent of a nuclear power plant. Clearly, new heat dissipation technologies are needed or speed advances will be blocked.

    New Thermal Transfer Paradigm

    Scientists at ThermoComposite have devised an anisotropic carbon-fiber-based heat transfer technology that acts like a fiberoptic system for heat. Anisotropic means that a material has different physical properties in different directions -- in this case, the carbon fibers transfer heat away from the source along the direction of the fibers but only minimally in a direction transverse to the fiber direction. Unlike an aluminum heat sink, which radiates from all surfaces and in all directions, the carbon fiber heat sinks developed by ThermoComposite radiate from the cross-sectional face of the fibers. That area of that face can be adjusted by varying the fin height, fin angle, and fiber volume of the heat sinks or other articles manufactured from the materials. ThermoComposite materials have demonstrated heat transfer at 432 W/m-k -- twice the rate of aluminum heat sinks -- and should be able to transfer heat at 1100-1700 W/m-k.

    Carbon heat sink radiates from cross-sectional end of fibers

    The technology optimizes and allows the manipulation and the collection, directional transport, and dissipation of thermal heat energy through the use of super-conductive-anisotropic materials and fibers such as carbon-based pitch and nano-fibers. It makes possible heat transfer and dissipation without fans or radiators, and their attendant complexity. Patent protection is broad.

    While the applications to electronics alone are stunning, the ThermoComposite technology also makes possible new conceptual ways of handling thermal energy, such as a flexible thermal wiring harness using thermal plugs and connectors, or thermal concentrators that bring heat streams from a wide area together at a single point. Stronger, stiffer, and dimensionally stable material means much better machinability. Conventional machine tools and methodologies can generate smaller, much finer thermal articles, one example being higher pin-fin densities per area.

    Light weight, low density, and high strength carbon fiber heat dissipation technologies can offer cost-competitive new design opportunities for thermal management.

    Download this Tech of the Week as a PDF

    You can download this Tech of the Week as a PDF file that you can share with co-workers. When viewed on a computer with an Internet connection, the PDF includes live links back to yet2.com and the technology listing.
    As you have been spent a lot of time in the study of carbon fiber, I thought this may be of some help.
     
    LongRifles said:
    Got 2 in the shop that id love to see go away. 22 and a 308.
    Click to expand...

    I take it these are really awesome high performance barrels that are better than everything else out there yeah? That's probably why you want to get rid of them, cause everybody wants them right?

    -VB
     
    Just got one of their "Sendero" 30 cal barrels for a 300 Win Mag build this week. It has cool factor...900 bucks worth. I got a nice hand written post card thanking me for my purchase, that was nice. Damn fine hand writing too! This is the first time I've called to order the action, barrel, stock and everything I wanted was in stock. Proof had a barrel, Mile High had an AI Ax and the bipod I wanted and McMillan had the a G 30. I'm pretty sure I heard angels singing while I was ordering.
     
    Last edited:
    I too have followed the carbon wrapped thing for quite some time now. I owned one of the very early barrels that Mike at ABS did and it started coming unwrapped if you will. Mike rewrapped the barrel for me in the latest process he had at the time (2010 time frame). This barrel was a Rock blank chambered for 243. The consistency over long shot strings was improved with the rewrap but the BIG change was in perceived heat transfer. What I noticed was even in warm ambient air I would get more mirage off the barrel in as few as 5 rounds shot at a medium pace than I would for the same approximate contour all steel barrel that I was shooting the same load threw. Now I know this is about as unscientific as it gets and also is not the same process or wrap being discussed in this thread but it has always stuck in my BHG.
     
    Everyone has two cents, but I have had nothing but good things to say about my PROOF barrels, and am getting ready to get another for an AR10.
     
    I'm intrigued by the technology but unimpressed with the options. They seem to have a set of contours and lengths they like but they don't necessarily want to deviate from them. Which is fine, its not my company so I don't have the right to tell them what to offer. However, for close to a grand for a barrel I want to choose the length and thickness to suit my needs, not conform my build to what they offer. Very polite folks for sure. I just want more input in what I get for my money at twice the cost of a Bartlein blank and chamber job.
     
    LawnMM said:
    I'm intrigued by the technology but unimpressed with the options. They seem to have a set of contours and lengths they like but they don't necessarily want to deviate from them. Which is fine, its not my company so I don't have the right to tell them what to offer. However, for close to a grand for a barrel I want to choose the length and thickness to suit my needs, not conform my build to what they offer. Very polite folks for sure. I just want more input in what I get for my money at twice the cost of a Bartlein blank and chamber job.
    Click to expand...

    Hmmm, I have the exact opposite experience with them. For the barrels I ordered a few months ago (and should be ready to go in a week or two), they wanted to know-

    Rem 700
    -What the finished length would be
    -Twist rate I wanted
    -What the specs on the reamer would be
    -How much metal would need to be left on front of the barrel to machine the suppressor mount on
    -Etc, ect, etc

    For my AR-15 barrels, they had me spec out
    -Length
    -Length of the gas system
    -Diameter of the gas port
    -Twist rate
    -Diameter of the barrel at the gas block

    The barrels have been very much made to my specs with no hint of them even offering factory spec, let alone having one.
     
    LawnMM said:
    I'm intrigued by the technology but unimpressed with the options. They seem to have a set of contours and lengths they like but they don't necessarily want to deviate from them. Which is fine, its not my company so I don't have the right to tell them what to offer. However, for close to a grand for a barrel I want to choose the length and thickness to suit my needs, not conform my build to what they offer. Very polite folks for sure. I just want more input in what I get for my money at twice the cost of a Bartlein blank and chamber job.
    Click to expand...

    If you think in terms of steel barrels, contour impacts two things- weight and stiffness. But that's steel, and it won't transfer over to composites well. Aside from composite laminates being (very) approximately 1/6 the weight of steel, the stiffness of the material varies very widely from a fraction of steel's stiffness to quite a bit stiffer than steel- it's all a matter of how they are manufactured.

    And since barrel vibration depends on both weight and stiffness (and length), you can basically throw out everything you know about steel barrels when approaching composite barrels. They're just different. You may be able to get away with a thinner profile, or you might want a thicker one. It's really hard to say without knowing more about how they make the barrels and doing some testing.

    One thing that is interesting to me about these is that there is potential to have a substantially higher frequency vibration from such a beast, which would certainly do things to load development and how we think about it. Not sure if it would be positive or negative, but most probably different.
     
    No, this won't be one of those scientific posts about thermal conductivity of carbon, de-lamination issues, etc. In fact, it'll be quite the opposite. The last time I remarked about carbon wrapped barrels, there was a video and a long discussion about the negativities associated with the technology. Prior to that, there was a thread about heat dissipation, or the lack thereof, of carbon wrapped barrels. Obviously, I've been quite vocal about my lack of support for carbon wrapping a barrel from any manufacturer, but I've also pointed directly at the technology utilized at PROOF Research.

    This time, my remarks will be quite different, as I stated in a past post that I would step up if I learned anything that countered my original remarks related to accuracy and heat dissipation. My new information comes from a discussion I had a few weeks ago with the owner of PROOF Research. In this discussion, I was presented with evidence of improved accuracy without group dispersion and overall structural improvements relative to the long term integrity of the wrap. This has been accomplished by placing the right people in the right places and a rigid stance to improve in the areas that required improvement.

    Although we didn't discuss heat dissipation in any real detail, I have to believe, based on the level of aggression at which they desire to improve their product, that carbon wrapped barrels, specifically, the ones offered by PROOF, may now actually dissipate heat away from the core of the barrel.

    This press release is indicative of the aggression and desire I speak of to improve their product and I would be happy to conduct another heat dissipation test on what I believe is a completely different barrel than I tested in the past. Frankly, I would recommend that Lowlight nuke prior threads related to what can be referred to as an older generation of product, as the evidence that I've been presented with clearly delineates vast improvements in the technology of PROOF's carbon wrapped barrels.
     
    I shouldn't have mentioned contour, its not important nor a huge concern of mine. However when I told them what I wanted as far as diameter beneath the gas block, length, twist, I basically got a list of what they produce in that caliber which was two inches shorter than what I wanted and I've not seen any evidence of carbon fiber increasing muzzle velocity. It was also a different gas block diameter. It was off putting, don't know how else to describe it. For that kind of price I expected more control over the options. Your results may vary that was just my experience.

    Edited to add, I reread the email in the interest of an accurate account. As I mentioned they were quite polite. The issue, for me, was barrel length and gas block diameter. Already have a perfectly good gas block and didn't want to buy another. As for length I was already going short to keep the gun handy, didn't want to go even shorter when most running a 6.5 are running 24-26" barrels. I was given a choice of 18 or 20 inches. Twist and threading were up to me. Just wasn't what I was looking for I suppose
     
    Last edited:
    BlackOps Tech said:
    No, this won't be one of those scientific posts about thermal conductivity of carbon, de-lamination issues, etc. In fact, it'll be quite the opposite. The last time I remarked about carbon wrapped barrels, there was a video and a long discussion about the negativities associated with the technology. Prior to that, there was a thread about heat dissipation, or the lack thereof, of carbon wrapped barrels. Obviously, I've been quite vocal about my lack of support for carbon wrapping a barrel from any manufacturer, but I've also pointed directly at the technology utilized at PROOF Research.

    This time, my remarks will be quite different, as I stated in a past post that I would step up if I learned anything that countered my original remarks related to accuracy and heat dissipation. My new information comes from a discussion I had a few weeks ago with the owner of PROOF Research. In this discussion, I was presented with evidence of improved accuracy without group dispersion and overall structural improvements relative to the long term integrity of the wrap. This has been accomplished by placing the right people in the right places and a rigid stance to improve in the areas that required improvement.

    Although we didn't discuss heat dissipation in any real detail, I have to believe, based on the level of aggression at which they desire to improve their product, that carbon wrapped barrels, specifically, the ones offered by PROOF, may now actually dissipate heat away from the core of the barrel.

    This press release is indicative of the aggression and desire I speak of to improve their product and I would be happy to conduct another heat dissipation test on what I believe is a completely different barrel than I tested in the past. Frankly, I would recommend that Lowlight nuke prior threads related to what can be referred to as an older generation of product, as the evidence that I've been presented with clearly delineates vast improvements in the technology of PROOF's carbon wrapped barrels.
    Click to expand...

    Good stuff, you are true to your word as usual. It is all very interesting stuff coming forth from Proof, it will be interesting to see what the future holds...
     
    AS REQUESTED. I know these photos have nothing to do with science, but there are not a lot of photos out there of their stuff, so I think it is appropriate to add some into the board. Be sides everyone loves GP! The blank was off of a Rock Creek barrel.. Before Proof was making their own. Before you ask, I have not shot many rounds down the tube, so I can not speak to longevity.











     
    Interesting pics. It's a little tough to tell, but it appears that the barrel isn't wrapped at all, but rather molded. You take a bunch of carbon fiber scraps and smash it all together in a compression mold with some resin. That's a pretty high speed process that gives you a (somewhat) uniform material with a little extra impact durability, but gives up quite a bit in stiffness. We used it on a space shuttle project once. Neat stuff.
     
    garrettjusmc said:
    AS REQUESTED. I know these photos have nothing to do with science, but there are not a lot of photos out there of their stuff, so I think it is appropriate to add some into the board. Be sides everyone loves GP! The blank was off of a Rock Creek barrel.. Before Proof was making their own. Before you ask, I have not shot many rounds down the tube, so I can not speak to longevity.











    Click to expand...

    What Chassis is that?
     
    XLR industries Evolution HD, the carbon hand guard, is a special order deal, but it the hand guard is made by Lancer Systems. It is a fabulous Chassis. And Kyle at XLR is one of the best.
     
    damoncali said:
    Interesting pics. It's a little tough to tell, but it appears that the barrel isn't wrapped at all, but rather molded. You take a bunch of carbon fiber scraps and smash it all together in a compression mold with some resin. That's a pretty high speed process that gives you a (somewhat) uniform material with a little extra impact durability, but gives up quite a bit in stiffness. We used it on a space shuttle project once. Neat stuff.
    Click to expand...

    Well I am not going to try and pretend to know their process, but their barrel's shoot! I also know I am missing a leg, and having light weight rifles make a big difference for me, when it comes to walking with them. And that is what first turned me on to PROOF.
     
    Thanks for the pictures. It appears that they mill down the barrel, kind of like fluting, and then wrap or apply their CF recipe to replace what was removed. I'm interested to say the least and given the good reports from those who actually have and shoot them, have a bit more faith in Proofs product than what Teludyne is saying thier CF wrapped barrels can do.
     
    I'd like to consider myself an early adopter, remember when cell phones came out? I think Proof is ahead of the curve, and people will soon recognize that, and be chasing them to provide accurate lightweight barrels. But what do I know?
     
    I bought this barreled action from Dan Mueller, back when he was with Rock Creek about 3 years ago. It has a Rock liner with the carbon wrap, done by ABS. It is my understanding that Proof bought the patents from ABS, so I assume the technology remained the same.

    Anyway, the rifle is a 6.5-284 and I have about 700 rounds down the tube. The barrel is an M24 contour.

    It has been a solid 0.5 MOA rifle since day one. Pretty much every load I've ever tried has shot well. As for their barrels they are turning out now, cant say. I'm gonna keep shooting this one till it craps out, so one day I will see if their claims of increased barrel life are warranted.

    I got a really good deal on mine, so I figured it would be great for hunting. Would I pay $900 for a new barrel, probably not. But this one shoots damn good. I think they work great for hunting applications, when the main goal is weight savings. This one only weighs 11.6 lbs, even with the adjustable comb stock, heavy ass Zeiss Scope, and Badger Rings (bi-pod not included). That's pretty light for a rifle with an M24 contour barrel.



     
    I was wondering about composite and non metal gun parts in general. Does the recent extension on the restriction of "plastic" guns. Does this extension have any effect on composite parts. Obviously since current manufactures continue their are allowances. Just wondering the differences.
     
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