I'm new to reloading and I have just started reloading 223 with a redding Bigg Boss 2 and redding dies. When using 24.1 grains of varget, my 77 grain smk have a variance of up to .020" in oal......(im measuring base to meplat)..... They are supposed to all be 2.255"......is this normal/OK?
- Thread starter Chanceterrill
- Start date
At 100 yards, I'm also getting around a
1.25" average...... Worst groups with fliers are 1.6 - 1.7" ..... Best are .7- .8" but most are 1.1 - 1.3...... Bipod in front rear bag in back... Leupold 4-12 vx tri moa with parallax.... Leupold Mark ar mount, gun is a ruger mpr, 18 inch chf barrel, freefloated rail, 2 stage 4.5 lb trigger...... I grew up hunting but only got serious about shooting about a year n a half ago, is this just shitty shooting? I've shot 5/8 groups before with the gun but I can't do it consistently and tightest I've got it with handloads is around 3/4......any feedback is greatly appreciated
1.25" average...... Worst groups with fliers are 1.6 - 1.7" ..... Best are .7- .8" but most are 1.1 - 1.3...... Bipod in front rear bag in back... Leupold 4-12 vx tri moa with parallax.... Leupold Mark ar mount, gun is a ruger mpr, 18 inch chf barrel, freefloated rail, 2 stage 4.5 lb trigger...... I grew up hunting but only got serious about shooting about a year n a half ago, is this just shitty shooting? I've shot 5/8 groups before with the gun but I can't do it consistently and tightest I've got it with handloads is around 3/4......any feedback is greatly appreciated
Do you have a way to measure BTO? That's how you should do it for load development, because it's repeatable to measure off the ogive, just make sure your OAL is within your mag length.
No one will be able to tell you for sure if it's you or the gun or your load, with that info. Do you have some targets you can post? AR's are harder to shoot accurately than bolt guns, and especially so if your fundamentals aren't good. Have you shot this gun with any quality factory ammo and if so what was the result? What's the jump on the bullet? What's the twist of your barrel???
I would guess that it's you, since you have gotten some pretty good groups for an AR, just not consistent. That said who knows if the gun likes whatever jump you are running. I shoot the 75gr eld match bullet but I think generally the 77 smk shoots pretty well in just about any 223.
Maybe some guys who shoot those in AR's can chime in and help here.
No one will be able to tell you for sure if it's you or the gun or your load, with that info. Do you have some targets you can post? AR's are harder to shoot accurately than bolt guns, and especially so if your fundamentals aren't good. Have you shot this gun with any quality factory ammo and if so what was the result? What's the jump on the bullet? What's the twist of your barrel???
I would guess that it's you, since you have gotten some pretty good groups for an AR, just not consistent. That said who knows if the gun likes whatever jump you are running. I shoot the 75gr eld match bullet but I think generally the 77 smk shoots pretty well in just about any 223.
Maybe some guys who shoot those in AR's can chime in and help here.
It's an "entry level" gun, so I'm sure its not the best barrel in the world,
I'm general the best I've ever got it to shoot was with 77 grain smk Sierra factory loads then it was what I would call 1 moa, several. 75 groups ranging to 1 1/8 -
1 3/16" groups, all 5 shot groups es measurements at 100 yards..... I've been told 1.5 moa out of a budget ar and match ammo is all you can expect, but then I hear about how all these guys have budget ar's that shoot sub moa all day etc...... Most the guys I see shooting at range shoot about 1.5 to 2 inch groups.... And they seem happy, I like to just consistently stay at .75" even an inch and I'd be happy honestly, I can shoot these groups but then they open up randomly, poi is the same 90% of the time ...
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OH and as far bto, no I don't...... I know I suck lol..... I'm JUST getting started, I've only loaded 100 rounds and best were 23.7 grains of varget and 24.1 grains........ So I loaded up 50 of the 24.1 to get a good average, shot half so far, then I'll probably try 23.7 and see which is tighter...... But I'm getting the fundamentals of reloading down still, am just learning about headspace and measurements to ogive etc.
This was best I've ever got gun to shoot with Hornady 75 grain bthp match and seirra 77 smk factory ammo
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I would think with seating depth tuning you could tighten that up, but have you tried any other bullets? A different bullet can have a big impact. I'd try a different bullet. What's your barrel twist? That may be a smidgen heavy for it.
Everyone starts out not knowing much. It's a ton better if you can load with an experienced guy for 3 or 4 sessions though, and a whole lot safer. There's certain habits that you can form to keep you from doing something that will blow your gun up. (Like a squib load being shot in front of a reg load for example).
You really need to get you a tool to measure and find your lands, and a tool to measure bto. The Hornady ones aren't much and work just fine.
Find your distance to the lands. See what mag length will be off the lands, or just start at mag length and get shorter by .005" with 3 shot groups and see what happens. You should be able to see what that does to your group and find a distance that shoots well. Make sure you are taking the time to be good and stable and make sure your reticle and poa will allow for you to be aiming at exactly the same place every time.
1 in 8 twist........ I'm sort of a loner I guess, I don't anyone who does this except one old guy n he's convinced the only gun that is worth shooting is his. 243 n he hates ar's lol.... He's too much lol..... So I've learned everything from extensive research (Im pretty OCD)..... There's a learning curve for sure..... Head's pace /comparator set will be the next thing I purchase then...
24 gr Varget and 77SMK is usually a compressed load which contributes to coal variance.
(Though 020 is quite a bit)
(And 77 SMKs shoot best at mag length, so stick with 2.255 - 2.260)
(Though 020 is quite a bit)
(And 77 SMKs shoot best at mag length, so stick with 2.255 - 2.260)
That's where I'm at now, but most fall between 2.263 and 2.258........occasionally I'll have a 2.269 or a 2.25...... The other load that shot good was 23.7 for what ever reason 23.9 opened up quite a bit then shrunk again at 24.1...... Any reason for this or is that just the way it works, as in you have sweet spots that just work better
My first AR was an FN, not a bad factory rifle. Best I could get it to shoot was 1-2 MOA - usually 2-3 MOA.
Next was a Compass Lake with Krieger 20” rifle length. 24 gr Varget and SMK = consistent 1/2”.
Ordered another carbine 16” Krieger - consistent 1/2”
Moral of the story - quality matters, especially the barrel.
Next was a Compass Lake with Krieger 20” rifle length. 24 gr Varget and SMK = consistent 1/2”.
Ordered another carbine 16” Krieger - consistent 1/2”
Moral of the story - quality matters, especially the barrel.
So for a ruger 556 with some upgrades, these 1.2 moa avg. Are pretty decent? Admittedly I'm sort of fishing, I just want to know if it's all me or partly barrel too..... I'm thinking of starting build and using a criterion barrel but I just don't have the cash now that I've spent hundreds and hundreds and hundreds on reloading tools and supplies....
This is an expensive little endeavor friend.... it's a lot of fun though! Yeah, 1moa ( or 1" group at 100yds) is thought to be pretty decent consistent groups with an AR unless it's a "precision ar".
I have a CLE AR 223 that will do 1/2" no problem, but again that's a very good barrel and an AR built for precision.
I don't reload. But I've owned that gun (Ruger MPR 18") and other variants of it. In my experience with factory loads my MPR preferred 68 and 69 grain rounds. 75-77 grain worked well too but just not as consistent as the 68-69 grain loads.
Very similar to what I'm using, only I'm single stage with. A redding press. And I use cci 400 primers..... I'd be happy if I could get my gun to shoot like that consistently, I'm pretty far off though. It has to be me then. I thought I was a decent shot, then I came to snipers hide lol
I've shot plenty 69 smk federal gold match n win match 69 smk and it shot good about moa to 1.25 consistently but all the sub moa groups I've shot have been with 75 and 77..... Im gonna give the 69 smk another go though..... What kind of groups did u get with ur mpr?
Reloading 69gr Sierra Matchkings for my last gas gun, I noticed that the bullets themselves varied by about .015. That was an eye opener. The previous box and lot of the exact same bullet had about half that (.007). .015 was just too much to try to keep all of them at mag length, so I gave up.
Fortunately your seating stem works off of (or should) a spot closer to your bullet's ogive, and not the meplat. Those .007 bullets were still good for groups in the .3s and .4s in my bolt gun at 100, and about 1/2 MOA at 200...probably wouldn't be nearly as good at distance though.
Fortunately your seating stem works off of (or should) a spot closer to your bullet's ogive, and not the meplat. Those .007 bullets were still good for groups in the .3s and .4s in my bolt gun at 100, and about 1/2 MOA at 200...probably wouldn't be nearly as good at distance though.
Pushing pressure in an AR-15 with CCI-400s is a good way to have pierced primer.
So far they all look great..... Not flattened, no gas leakage, I'm not pushing anymore then 24.1 of varget, with my knowledge and understanding, I just don't have the confidence to push the envelope..... Seirra published max is 23.9, I think I'll try 23.7 again next since it was actually a tiny bit tighter. I'm not a camp perry shooter either so I know some of my shots arnt perfect..... Im proud to be able to hit ground hogs at 250 yards with it, haven't tried 300 yet because I haven't had the opportunity. I just would really like to get my gun and my ability refined enough to shoot sub moa consistently....... 1 inch and under and I'm happy
See I'm not to 1 inch consistently though, I averaged all the groups out and came up with 1.2" ...... Occasionally I'll have a 1.5" or 1.7" group, then again occasionally I'll have sub moa groups but to me that sucks..... Maybe I shouldnt count fliers? But I dont feel honest unless I count everything.
24.1 under a 77 is pushing the envelope.
So coal can vary . 015 with smk? Sounds like everything is normal then. Most are right around 2.26 - /+. 003.......but a few are . 10 over and a few are . 10 under
That part is pretty normal, 77SMKs are not all tipped the same. Bullets like that is why people use comparators to measure the ojive. For an AR-15 I usually just set it mag length. There is not a ton of room to play without modifying mags, or shortening OAL, which can be tough because the case us usually pretty full with 223. Especially with Varget, RL15, or other powders on the slow side of spectrum for 223.
For shooting varmints to 600y I use the 53 V-max or whatever 50-60g bullet I can find cheap. If its windy 600 is a push, if its calm farther is not too bad.
For shooting varmints to 600y I use the 53 V-max or whatever 50-60g bullet I can find cheap. If its windy 600 is a push, if its calm farther is not too bad.
That's insane
...... 600 yards? Geez n here I was proud of 230 lol. I hit a bird at 161 n was pretty proud too...... I guess it's all relative....... Another thing I'm wondering is if my sure fire warcomp is opening my groups up..... I had the tightest groups I've ever had with the stock brake but it was ungodly loud n I don't wear ears hunting..... The war comp is great and helps me stay on target when I shoot faster at steel doing drills and such, I'm not sure if that would really open it up noticibably at 100 yards or not...... I'm inclined to think it's a combo of my stock barrel and me...... The thing that gets me is there will be groups where every shot felt perfect that are 1.6". Then there will be groups that felt identical that are . 8". Sometimes I'll know, and the shots just felt a touch off.... Those groups opening up I understand, it's the ones that feel perfect but still suck at 1.6" that concern me most
That's beastly........what barrel?
I juslooked up that hk 556.....that gun cost triple what mine did, maybe I'm expecting to much out of it lol
You just never know. Sometimes cheap barrels shoot pretty good and sometimes they don't. An AR-15 isn't exactly point and click and you're shooting small groups either. They are little harder to shoot well than bolt actions. With all the fundamentals being more important for perfect results. Bedding the barrel extension has long been standard when accrurizing an AR. WOA barrels are petty cheap and have a good reputation. My best shooting AR is probably Criterion 6.5 Grendel, but I have WOA 223 Wylde, and Mcgowan 20 practical that shoot pretty well too.
I don't really do load development for varmint ammo. A P-dog is pretty big target for about 300 yards. For ammo I take with me to shoot at them 600+ i do.
I don't really do load development for varmint ammo. A P-dog is pretty big target for about 300 yards. For ammo I take with me to shoot at them 600+ i do.
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My overall results were similar to yours with a variety of ammo in the 1.25 to .8 range. On occasion better than that but not consistent. 68-69 grain loads gave me the most consistency at about 1 MOA.
Oh trust me, the HK is nothing special. It’s still a AR. My sons DD cost almost 1/2 the price shoots exactly the same. 16” barrel 1-7 twist. Matter of fact, for some odd reason he’s getting almost 100 fps more then my MR. I have no idea why. Though, it could be the barrel.
Shooting an AR (to me) has always been about the trigger, and your control of it.
You stated the Ruger has a 4.5 lb trigger ?
Is it the stock trigger ?
If so, that would be my first upgrade, even before a barrel.
Does anyone know of a shooter getting small groups with a stock trigger ?
Didn't think so.
You stated the Ruger has a 4.5 lb trigger ?
Is it the stock trigger ?
If so, that would be my first upgrade, even before a barrel.
Does anyone know of a shooter getting small groups with a stock trigger ?
Didn't think so.
The Ruger MPR comes with Ruger's Elite 452 trigger and it's a pretty good one.
Well the trigger is actually pretty good, I don't know if I want to spend money into this gun or if I'd be better off rebuild from scratch for the experience and to be able to cherry-pick every part I want for accuracy, I probably wouldn't have that much more in building a new gun by the time I put a Criterion barrel and a guiseley trigger in my Ruger
Just shot again, I'm pretty disappointed, nothing changed, load is the same, everything's the same, yet my groups opened up to 1.75 and 2 moa...... I haven't cleaned my barrel in about 500 600 rounds, but I can't believe that would do it, I have read enough now I'm scared to clean due to damaging the crown..... I have simple 3 piece rod I've used forever n clean with jags and patches but no bore guide n no Dewey 1 piece rod...... I have read you run your barrel by cleaning it too much....... I also tried the whole thumb on the right side instead of wrapped around the grip deal and it feels weird as hell..... I don't feel as comfortable with my trigger pulls.....maybe cuz I have been shooting with thumb wrapped for so long? I wonder should I even keep trying it if its not what I'm used too...... I'm not seeing any advantages either if anything I shoot worse but I'm trying to maintain precision fundamentals.....
Am I changing to much too quick?
Flyers are just as much as part of a group as any other. If you pull one and call it, that's not a flyer, but flyers count.
I would bet that it is in fact a combo of your barrel not quite being where you want it to be, the load not being as good as it can be, and you not shooting as good as you will be able to with more practice. Of course the load is something that you can adjust easily and you get to practice while you do it. There isn't a lot of concern generally given to shooting out any 223 barrel, and it's one of the cheapest to load and shoot, so practice and develope that loaf. Just be careful loading. I would highly recommend finding someone to learn from even for a few sessions. It will help you more than you realize. I would be you can even find someone here that is within an hour or two away from you and would be happy to load with you for an afternoon. It is so valuable to go through it all and pick up little tips and habits that #1- keep it safe, and #2- will save you a lot of heart ache from doing stupid stuff (as we've all done). There's a thread about our mishaps on here but I can't recall the name.
If you are comfortable shooting with your thumb wrapped, keep doing it. You have to wrap it to run with the gun anyway so....
I would clean the barrel, get a good carbon fiber rod though, and just use a quality cleaner like boretech. 500 or more rounds can definitely be enough to effect accuracy. Just be methodical and do it correctly and it's fine. People who clean the piss out if it every 50 rounds is one thing, cleaning it every 300-400 is fine. A lot if guys clean when they see accuracy fall off, but I'm more of a every 150-200 rounds myself. If you use legit products and correct methods, you won't damage it and you will keep your barrel shooting its best imo. (This is a very widely disputed topic though). Stay away from Bronze brushes and bore bright stuff and just use a good copper cleaner and a good carbon cleaner and I would get a bore guide too, it's a lot easier with one and it keeps cleaner from going in places you don't want it too.
I'm wondering if I'm practicing wrong though, perfect practice yields great results, poor practice yields bad habits and I wonder if I'm developing them. I've shot for 20 years with one eye closed n recently I started shooting with both open to fix that habit, and I'm sure there is more that needs changed too, that's why I tried the thumb thing....i also don't know that changing form when testing loads is a good idea.... I've noticed that if load the bipod really hard the groups shrink and I'm wondering if it's because it pulls rail down slightly n gives more clearance if gas block, the gas block is scary close to contacting rail on bottom, could it be hitting during shot and throwing groups? When I don't load as hard that is
What cleaners do you suggest for both copper and carbon? I'm just using hoppe's 9 and clp, also what rod do u recommend? The only one piece my store has is pro shot but I believe its metal
I'll just throw this out there: I have a S&W AR and the best I could get it to shoot was 1 1/2" groups. I ordered a new upper from Compass Lake with a Krieger barrel and now I'm shooting 5/8" groups with the same ammo and a suppressor attached.
Yeah, I'll second the thought that 500+ rounds is more than enough to have buildup start affecting accuracy.
Like the gentleman above said, I clean barrels every 100-200 rounds. Why? Because I know how well my barrels shoot with 1-200 rounds through them. Waiting until the accuracy falls off can bite you in the ass when you want it least. Plus it can really screw with your load development if you're trying to wring out accuracy.
Like the gentleman above said, I clean barrels every 100-200 rounds. Why? Because I know how well my barrels shoot with 1-200 rounds through them. Waiting until the accuracy falls off can bite you in the ass when you want it least. Plus it can really screw with your load development if you're trying to wring out accuracy.
How much would an upper like that run me?
Yes it's normal. The meplat of open-tip match bullets is not all that consistent.
A better measurement is base to ogive. Buy one of these https://www.sinclairintl.com/reload...r-hex-style-bullet-comparators-prod83792.aspx and stick the bullet in the correct hole. Use a caliper to measure from base to the flat face of the comparator and substract one inch to get the base to ogive measurement. Or just ignore the inch offset. Doesn't matter as long as your measurement method is consistent.
If you want to measure to the tips you'll have to buy a meplat uniformer and trim each bullet. Fuck that.
How experienced of a shooter are you? Sounds like you aren't since hitting at 230 seems like a challenge.
I suggest you stop burning money on the gun and burn money on getting some training to teach you right from the start.
Analysis paralysis
Stop reading and start doing some methodical experiments on the range. But first of all find some training. You're all over the place.
And no, you're not going to ruin a barrel by cleaning it too much. You can ruin one by cleaning it incorrectly though.
I don't have time to get training...... I just hunt and picked up a liking for this ar. So I'd like to get it shooting 1 inch consistently, I could always get my 3006 to shoot under and inch at 100 everytime...... 230 yards at rabbits and groundhogs is good shot to me, 300 is about the furthest I'll likely ever shoot or hunt....... My groups are all over the place, or my posts?
Shot for 20 years..... But it's just hunting shooting deer groundhogs turkey squirrel rabbit...... only recently got into trying to get alot more precise...... As long as I hit what I was shooting I was always happy, I'd just like to hone in a little tighter so I started reloading
But you have time to go to the range and waste it without understand why things don't work and whether it's you, the rifle, or both
If I had a buck for every time I've heard that
Yes
