New Sniper Team, what ammo for LMT 308

[Joshua1:9b]

My department is trying to form a sniper team. We currently have Federal GMM 168 grain 308 ammo. Very accurate but terminal ballistics suck.

Looking at switching to the Hornady 168 grain ELD Match or the ELD Match AR.

Does any one know that actual bullet difference in the ELD vs the ELD AR?

Any other budget friendly options for 308 duty ammo? Thanks in advance.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

T308T or T308TTMK2. They both use the TMK which has excellent terminal ballistics.

 

[WindstormSCR]

It's not budget friendly, but since you're emphasizing precision in an environment where every bit of juice you can squeeze matters, I would suggest the Federal Terminal Ascent 175gr .308 loadings.

a few things to note, and an explanation of why I'm recommending such a premium round.

notes:
1) I've used it extensively in competition and hunting, and it is the only premium cartridge that feels actually worth the cost to me
2) You will need to use either metal mags (KAC, etc) or the Magpul red follower 25rd, designed for M118LR as the cartridge length is 2.83"

Reasoning:
1) accuracy. It has the highest BC available to a .308 factory loading without single-feeding and running hand loads, it has performed well in every gas and bolt platform I have tried it in, and is my competition load for that reason.
2) terminal performance. The design is very similar to the Trophy-bonded Bear Claw which was the basis for Federal's Law Enforcement ammunition line, because of its performance against barriers, particularly auto glass and other commercial glazing, which is traditionally a very difficult barrier. The solid copper base does an excellent job of providing barrier blindness and retained weight on target.
3) Reliability of terminal performance: The projectile will reliably expand even at transonic velocities out to the advertised maximum of ~1000y. This has been demonstrated multiple places, and provides for excellent terminal effect at most conceivable ranges and conditions that a LE sniper team might be called upon to operate in.
4) fully element sealed: Perhaps a nitpick, but the nickel brass case, sealed neck, sealed primer, and nickel coated projectile mean that short of being mangled somehow, the ammunition will remain usable and effective in harsh conditions.


It is expensive, but considering the potential benefits to your department, it may be worth the price of entry.

 

[smacha538]

We use 168 grain AMAX loaded Hornady TAP Precision. Performs excellent out of both Larue OBR and Tacops.

 

[dirtybores]

LE308TT2

 

[strikeeagle1]

The documented average spiper engagement distance for U.S. law enforcement personnel is 50-55 yards. Why is employing extremely low drag (ELD) match grade ammunition even a consideration? Law enforcement studies have concerns of over-penetration with match grade ammunition at these distances. Intermediate barrier profile and angle of incidence may screw up your first shot to the target, subsequent degradation of the barrier by the first round may provide better second shot placement which is the ultimate arbiter of success to the situation; sequential loading your magazines with different ammunition profiles might be a consideration. IF you zero your rifle at 100 yards you still have height-over-bore issues to consider for the shot. The NTOA (National Tactical Officers Assoc.) has endorsed the .308 ELD Hornady products.

 

[sinister]

My department is trying to form a sniper team. We currently have Federal GMM 168 grain 308 ammo. Very accurate but terminal ballistics suck.

Where did you get that from and how do you figure that? Actual shootings by cops in your department?

What training does your lead sniper or instructor have?

 

[RUTGERS95]

It's not budget friendly, but since you're emphasizing precision in an environment where every bit of juice you can squeeze matters, I would suggest the Federal Terminal Ascent 175gr .308 loadings.

a few things to note, and an explanation of why I'm recommending such a premium round.

notes:
1) I've used it extensively in competition and hunting, and it is the only premium cartridge that feels actually worth the cost to me
2) You will need to use either metal mags (KAC, etc) or the Magpul red follower 25rd, designed for M118LR as the cartridge length is 2.83"

Reasoning:
1) accuracy. It has the highest BC available to a .308 factory loading without single-feeding and running hand loads, it has performed well in every gas and bolt platform I have tried it in, and is my competition load for that reason.
2) terminal performance. The design is very similar to the Trophy-bonded Bear Claw which was the basis for Federal's Law Enforcement ammunition line, because of its performance against barriers, particularly auto glass and other commercial glazing, which is traditionally a very difficult barrier. The solid copper base does an excellent job of providing barrier blindness and retained weight on target.
3) Reliability of terminal performance: The projectile will reliably expand even at transonic velocities out to the advertised maximum of ~1000y. This has been demonstrated multiple places, and provides for excellent terminal effect at most conceivable ranges and conditions that a LE sniper team might be called upon to operate in.
4) fully element sealed: Perhaps a nitpick, but the nickel brass case, sealed neck, sealed primer, and nickel coated projectile mean that short of being mangled somehow, the ammunition will remain usable and effective in harsh conditions.


It is expensive, but considering the potential benefits to your department, it may be worth the price of entry.

have used this in my 20" ss LMT and it was outstanding!

agree, worth the cost

 

[ma smith]

My department is trying to form a sniper team....

OP, I'd PM mods and request access to the .mil/LEO forum.
That's probably a better place for this discussion.

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/forums/m-h-s-a-military-le-only-section/

 

[Joshua1:9b]

Where did you get that from and how do you figure that? Actual shootings by cops in your department?

What training does your lead sniper or instructor have?

Lead sniper. No we are not that high speed. We currently have no sniper element at all. I have a military experience and a 1300 yard range that I can shoot on from my back porch. Aka a big field.

Fortunately, former special forces members have created a training facility near our department, and I believe three of them were snipers.

My data comes from the usual Google search of course. I have also been testing it on multiple deer over the last several years with results coinciding with my research.

 

[Joshua1:9b]

OP, I'd PM mods and request access to the .mil/LEO forum.
That's probably a better place for this discussion.

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/forums/m-h-s-a-military-le-only-section/

I had no idea that existed. Thanks

 

[supercorndogs]

@Terry Cross

 

[j-huskey]

My department is trying to form a sniper team. We currently have Federal GMM 168 grain 308 ammo. Very accurate but terminal ballistics suck.

Looking at switching to the Hornady 168 grain ELD Match or the ELD Match AR.

Does any one know that actual bullet difference in the ELD vs the ELD AR?

There is no bullet difference. The powder is a different burn rate friendlier to AR gas platforms.
This would be the American Sniper Assn recommendation to you for duty ammunition in that platform.
Our experience with ELDM Tap (non AR) in several different gas platforms has been a failure to function due to over pressure. GA Precision built (armalite & DPMS platforms), both mfg's in factory format, LMT, and DD.

There is no less expensive duty ammunition option, sorry bud.

Best to you .

 

[j-huskey]

My question for the Tipped MatchKing and Terminal Ascent users is about barrier penetration experience.
Is there data available on this issue with these rounds ?

Where is my Brother @Terry Cross

 

[j-huskey]

Fortunately, former special forces members have created a training facility near our department, and I believe three of them were snipers.

American Sniper Association, Snipercraft, and Derrick Bartlett and or @Terry Cross will provide you with much better Law Enforcement Sniper training than your above mentioned crew.
No offense to them. None at all... they can teach you to shoot, very yes, and can or should be able to teach you to shoot urban/mout which would be a good basic beginning to your career, however, they don't have the background available for LE that Derrick or Terry can provide.
It is what it is.

 

[j-huskey]

@sinister HI Dave !

Do you remember the Marine Sniper who shot the guy right above the kidney with 118LR and had him come to the gate the next day for medical treatment still wearing the same clothes he was shot in ? Coughlin (sp) maybe ?

You asked about the gmm failure rate in real world, somehow I think you might just be one of our premiere SME's on 118LR bullet performance and could seriously educate us on such.

Was Trott sniper school CO b4 you or after you ?

 

[pmclaine]

@sinister HI Dave !

Do you remember the Marine Sniper who shot the guy right above the kidney with 118LR and had him come to the gate the next day for medical treatment still wearing the same clothes he was shot in ? Coughlin (sp) maybe ?

You asked about the gmm failure rate in real world, somehow I think you might just be one of our premiere SME's on 118LR bullet performance and could seriously educate us on such.

Was Trott sniper school CO b4 you or after you ?

Thing is dude came to the gate looking for someone's to save its life and it wasn't in a hide continuing to take pot shots, claiming "Just a flesh wound"

Sounds like the terminal ballistics were fine.

What are people thinking? Unless their round hits and does this....

the ammo is "less than lethal"?

You put a .30 caliber 150 grain plus bullet through a body it fucks shit up.

I'd go for confidence building accuracy and faith in LEO not dealing with plate wearing determined hadjis intent on 96 virgins over "Gee my round expanded a bit more".

Within reason on my untrained keyboard thoughts.

Would you feel good taking an important shot using 168FGMM and a TacOps? You willing to dismiss that combination to the point you would choose to be down range from one and dismiss that capability?

Not me. That 168 will do its job based on placement or it will make the target wish it had.

@j-huskey

Post is not directed at you. my response is rhetorical and your post just happens to be the one I replied to.

 

[j-huskey]

Rgr Brother.
I'll take my GAP AR10 and Hornady AR any day, comfortable very, or my 70 w Hornady ELDM or FGMM, comfortable very very, after 27 years with the 70 and 21 with the gap... and 30+ w fgmm and 20ish w Hornady.

Ill even be comfortable with the old 70, 3006, m72 and the unertl rtb.

I'm probably a bit more comfortable with my stuff and ability, than new guys just getting started and first times.

Shot placement is critical, bc yes I know of one fgmm168 to the upper bridge that stopped in the sinus cavity, and non bud walked away. And ASA has documented I think 60 cases of walk aways that should have killed non bud... just sayin..

 

[pmclaine]

Appropriately schooled.

I still don’t want to be shot by a 168.

 

[j-huskey]

Neither do I. I still don't want any more paint ball or sims hits in my nuts either...

 

[pmclaine]

Neither do I. I still don't want any more paint ball or sims hits in my nuts either...

The reason vests come with a soft trauma plate is for use as nut protection during sym training

 

[j-huskey]

The reason vests come with a soft trauma plate is for use as nut protection during sym training

Our early vests did not have nut protectors there Brother Dinosaur.... the last three iterations did... some of our readers weren't born when I started these things... you aren't that far behind me

 

[Terry Cross]

@pmclaine
Do you realize that the majority of bad guy incidents where SWAT is deployed start with a barricaded subject?

Do you realize that 168GMM will fail even on your grandma's paper thin dining room window glass?

Nobody wants to be shot with any rifle.
More deer have been killed with 22LR (illegally at night) than any other cartridge but does that make it the best "deer" round?

.

 

[Terry Cross]

T308T or T308TTMK2. They both use the TMK which has excellent terminal ballistics.

This is not exactly correct.
Neither uses the same bullet Sierra labels as TMK.

You are exactly correct about the terminal ballistics of the bullets used in T308T being very good.

.
.

 

[WindstormSCR]

My question for the Tipped MatchKing and Terminal Ascent users is about barrier penetration experience.
Is there data available on this issue with these rounds ?

Where is my Brother @Terry Cross

yes. The terminal ascent was basically an evolution of the TBBC, and the current crop of federal LE rounds are also based on that same design (bonded jacketed lead with an expansion tip, and 1/3 to 1/2 of the projectile length forming a solid copper base)

you can view federal's data on barrier performance here for a similarly designed 168gr variation: https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammunition/federal/rifle/details.aspx?id=934 (scroll to bottom)

in perfect honesty, I stock the stuff not only because its great for competition and hunting, but also because in "unusual circumstances" I know I can rely on it to perform as an effective antipersonnel round, especially given my primary gas gun has a 20" barrel.

if it speaks to my faith in it, I'm sitting on something like ~660 rds of it at the moment

 

[Joshua1:9b]

American Sniper Association, Snipercraft, and Derrick Bartlett and or @Terry Cross will provide you with much better Law Enforcement Sniper training than your above mentioned crew.
No offense to them. None at all... they can teach you to shoot, very yes, and can or should be able to teach you to shoot urban/mout which would be a good basic beginning to your career, however, they don't have the background available for LE that Derrick or Terry can provide.
It is what it is.

I get what you are saying completely. Fortunately this guy has been training swat teams for about 10 years and is the president of the 5th district now. They run the swat school for area departments and it’s the best training I’ve ever been to. Kind of dedicated to helping local teams.

Here is a link to their training center they are just finishing.

The Lab

The Lab Training Center is a 102 acre facility located in Jefferson Township, Michigan with all the capabilities for training first responders law enforcement

www.thelabtrainingcenter.com

Reference to ELDM ammo. all the standard match grade stuff is easy to find but the AR version is not as common. Does anyone know the best place to get it?

 

[j-huskey]

GT Distributors in North GA is the closest place to me right now that has any in stock. Normally our distributor is Gulf States in Montgomery AL. They are out and Hornady isn't going to to run any soon enough to suit me.

That doesn't help you, I know.

 

[Terry Cross]

My question for the Tipped MatchKing and Terminal Ascent users is about barrier penetration experience.
Is there data available on this issue with these rounds ?

Where is my Brother @Terry Cross

Out of state and cold with limited access to comms. (Insert whining and bitching emoji here).

Xs and Os
.

 

[Joshua1:9b]

@sinister HI Dave !

Do you remember the Marine Sniper who shot the guy right above the kidney with 118LR and had him come to the gate the next day for medical treatment still wearing the same clothes he was shot in ? Coughlin (sp) maybe ?

You asked about the gmm failure rate in real world, somehow I think you might just be one of our premiere SME's on 118LR bullet performance and could seriously educate us on such.

Was Trott sniper school CO b4 you or after you ?

I was in the Marine Corps infantry, but I was not a sniper, unfortunately. Couldn’t tell you. Everything I know on ballistics and Milling is self taught/google search.

I just know in my personal experience using the ammunition. I am getting pencil size holes through the entire deer over and over again. I have found the only way to drop them is with high shoulder shots. Or trying to hit the tip of the shoulder to get the boy to tumble through the chest cavity.

I know it’s not the perfect or the most scientific way to go about it but I live on the farm where deer need to be shot. I have shot about 15 with this specific ammo to test it for terminal ballistics.

 

[Terry Cross]

Reference to ELDM ammo. all the standard match grade stuff is easy to find but the AR version is not as common. Does anyone know the best place to get it?

I wouldn't worry about using AR optimized versions. We see a ton of the regular flavor run through gas work guns just fine.

FWIW, T308T is marketed for gas guns but happens to be the best open air round you can use in a bolt gun too.

 

[Joshua1:9b]

There is no bullet difference. The powder is a different burn rate friendlier to AR gas platforms.
This would be the American Sniper Assn recommendation to you for duty ammunition in that platform.
Our experience with ELDM Tap (non AR) in several different gas platforms has been a failure to function due to over pressure. GA Precision built (armalite & DPMS platforms), both mfg's in factory format, LMT, and DD.

There is no less expensive duty ammunition option, sorry bud.

Best to you .

OK thank you. My LMT is already over gassed. I can’t even run a suppressor on it without causing malfunctions even after going up to an 8 1/2 once buffer. So just to be clear, the AR ammo will create less back pressure correct. it’s not just a faster bring powder is it

Also, we have drafted a proposal to administration for the sniper team, and I am creating a PowerPoint to recommended other options for ammunition purchases. Hornady provided me with their offerings. Their ELDM and amax show that they are recommended by the American sniper Association. However, the ELDAR does not have that certification with it. Is there any list that shows what rounds are tested/certified by the American sniper Association?

 

[j-huskey]

I know it’s not the perfect or the most scientific way to go about it but I live on the farm where deer need to be shot. I have shot about 15 with this specific ammo to test it for terminal ballistics.

Farm he said.... my brother....

I have similar mediums for testing... 753 so far this year.... yes, 753...

 

[pmclaine]

@pmclaine
Do you realize that the majority of bad guy incidents where SWAT is deployed start with a barricaded subject?

Do you realize that 168GMM will fail even on your grandma's paper thin dining room window glass?

Nobody wants to be shot with any rifle.
More deer have been killed with 22LR (illegally at night) than any other cartridge but does that make it the best "deer" round?

.

Barricaded subject are dudes creating a prison of their own design. Most of the ones I have been privy to see end up being a guy with a bullhorn yelling at an empty house not Chris Dorn, thankfully.

I’ve conceded that there is better ammo than 168 FGMM.

My personal opinion these days is the less effective the police the better.

 

[j-huskey]

OK thank you. My LMT is already over gassed. I can’t even run a suppressor on it without causing malfunctions even after going up to an 8 1/2 once buffer. So just to be clear, the AR ammo will create less back pressure correct. it’s not just a faster bring powder is it

Also, we have drafted a proposal to administration for the sniper team, and I am creating a PowerPoint to recommended other options for ammunition purchases. Hornady provided me with their offerings. Their ELDM and amax show that they are recommended by the American sniper Association. However, the ELDAR does not have that certification with it. Is there any list that shows what rounds are tested/certified by the American sniper Association?

The eldm and eldm ar are the same bullet at same velocity so it should be the same by ASA. you got Derricks # ? Call him and ask, however if @Terry Cross is Still reading here, he might know if ASA approves the eldmar ammo . I'll call Derrick and ask if you don't have his #.

@Terry Cross, none of our AR10 variants run the std eldm without overpressure issues and I've got a two year nightmare trying to get my GAP and another factory armalite to run it. Horribilus...
Zero trouble with any of our variants running FGMM 168/175, M118LR, gi ball, or, surprise, Hornady black....
Shit just is sometimes.

 

[sinister]

Mister J 1:9b, I've stood up, employed, transferred, and deactivated many, many sniper teams over the years. One of many base facts and assumptions to consider is availability and consistency of your ammunition.

Picking a specialty or boutique cartridge works as long as you can afford and get it. If the manufacturer stops producing it you have to fall back on small outfits to hand-load it for you or the data you build up over the years might as well go down the toilet. Don't be surprised if your training logs and data books ever get subpoenaed.

Federal 168 Gold Medal Match is pretty good stuff and has been made for decades now. I've also been issued Hornady and Black Hills 168 Match. What is on your state contract (i.e., can you fall in on and take advantage of your state trooper's or big-city contract quantity / discount pricing)?

How many sniper rifles does your department intend to buy? Will they all be the same or will you have a mix (LMTs and 700s, or privately-owned quasi-official team guns)?

What is your most likely scenario and what is most dangerous? Do you routinely stop robbers with big, heavy cars and SUVs? Bro-dozers? Panzers? Do you have lots of hostage situations, clandestine meth labs, or active shooter incidents where you have to support and overwatch entry teams and possibly shoot through glass? At night or in parks or forests? Wide-open farm fields? When was the last time your department couldn't protect the public or you lost officers or was sued because you didn't have sniper support?

LMT barrels are built slightly differently than others. Suppressing ARs comes with their own quirks. Have you tried XH buffers along with a Carrier Weight System? Lighter bullets?

There's no single answer, but you seem to need help with a starting point. The trainers you're looking to use should be counseling and mentoring (especially if you're paying them consultancy fees). As pointed out, military sniping isn't necessarily civil police overwatch support. Is their training curriculum POST-certified?

Please note: I am not, nor have I ever been (besides being deputized or carrying military or fed Bs and Cs) a cop -- but I hold military and several state and federal LE training certs.

 

[Terry Cross]

The eldm and eldm ar are the same bullet at same velocity so it should be the same by ASA. you got Derricks # ? Call him and ask, however if @Terry Cross is Still reading here, he might know if ASA approves the eldmar ammo . I'll call Derrick and ask if you don't have his #.

@Terry Cross, none of our AR10 variants run the std eldm without overpressure issues and I've got a two year nightmare trying to get my GAP and another factory armalite to run it. Horribilus...
Zero trouble with any of our variants running FGMM 168/175, M118LR, gi ball, or, surprise, Hornady black....
Shit just is sometimes.

Yes sir. I have Derrick's PIC info,
He is a huge Hornady fan. Complicated story..... So he would know.

We see tons of the Hornady with soft brass. This puts a lot of brass fouling on the breach face and shows up as high pressure symptoms with the way bolt AND gas guns run it.

I am not a big fan of Hornady but there is a piss load of it in use because reasons....

.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

This is not exactly correct.
Neither uses the same bullet Sierra labels as TMK.

You are exactly correct about the terminal ballistics of the bullets used in T308T being very good.

.
.

I don’t know if they’re identical but were told they were and the terminal performance has been just as devastating.

 

[sinister]

Yes sir. I have Derrick's PIC info,
He is a huge Hornady fan. Complicated story ...

We see tons of the Hornady with soft brass. This puts a lot of brass fouling on the breach face and shows up as high pressure symptoms with the way bolt AND gas guns run it.

I am not a big fan of Hornady but there is a piss load of it in use because reasons ...

My experience with most Hornady brass as well.

 

[Joshua1:9b]

Farm he said.... my brother....

View attachment 8292084View attachment 8292084View attachment 8292086View attachment 8292085View attachment 8292087

I have similar mediums for testing... 753 so far this year.... yes, 753...

My view is very similar.

 

[Joshua1:9b]

The eldm and eldm ar are the same bullet at same velocity so it should be the same by ASA. you got Derricks # ? Call him and ask, however if @Terry Cross is Still reading here, he might know if ASA approves the eldmar ammo . I'll call Derrick and ask if you don't have his #.

@Terry Cross, none of our AR10 variants run the std eldm without overpressure issues and I've got a two year nightmare trying to get my GAP and another factory armalite to run it. Horribilus...
Zero trouble with any of our variants running FGMM 168/175, M118LR, gi ball, or, surprise, Hornady black....
Shit just is sometimes.

I do not have his number.

For simplicity sake, I may just grab some of the EDLM and try it out in my rifle.

 

[Joshua1:9b]

Mister J 1:9b, I've stood up, employed, transferred, and deactivated many, many sniper teams over the years. One of many base facts and assumptions to consider is availability and consistency of your ammunition.

Picking a specialty or boutique cartridge works as long as you can afford and get it. If the manufacturer stops producing it you have to fall back on small outfits to hand-load it for you or the data you build up over the years might as well go down the toilet. Don't be surprised if your training logs and data books ever get subpoenaed.

Federal 168 Gold Medal Match is pretty good stuff and has been made for decades now. I've also been issued Hornady and Black Hills 168 Match. What is on your state contract (i.e., can you fall in on and take advantage of your state trooper's or big-city contract quantity / discount pricing)?

How many sniper rifles does your department intend to buy? Will they all be the same or will you have a mix (LMTs and 700s, or privately-owned quasi-official team guns)?

What is your most likely scenario and what is most dangerous? Do you routinely stop robbers with big, heavy cars and SUVs? Bro-dozers? Panzers? Do you have lots of hostage situations, clandestine meth labs, or active shooter incidents where you have to support and overwatch entry teams and possibly shoot through glass? At night or in parks or forests? Wide-open farm fields? When was the last time your department couldn't protect the public or you lost officers or was sued because you didn't have sniper support?

LMT barrels are built slightly differently than others. Suppressing ARs comes with their own quirks. Have you tried XH buffers along with a Carrier Weight System? Lighter bullets?

There's no single answer, but you seem to need help with a starting point. The trainers you're looking to use should be counseling and mentoring (especially if you're paying them consultancy fees). As pointed out, military sniping isn't necessarily civil police overwatch support. Is their training curriculum POST-certified?

Please note: I am not, nor have I ever been (besides being deputized or carrying military or fed Bs and Cs) a cop -- but I hold military and several state and federal LE training certs.

It will probably start out as personally owned rifles. Our department budget definitely can’t cover that.

I’m guessing it will be a mix of Ruger precision‘s, and one semi auto.

Mostly dealing with barricaded subjects. Meth dealers and homicide suspects. Nothin to crazy.

 

[Joshua1:9b]

I see all sorts of people replying to Terry cross, but his post doesn’t even show up on my end!?? Can somebody copy paste his post so I can read it.

 

[j-huskey]

I see all sorts of people replying to Terry cross, but his post doesn’t even show up on my end!?? Can somebody copy paste his post so I can read it.

Not replying to TC, but, calling him to the postings.

 

[db2000]

Not sure what killing deer and terminal ballistics on barricaded meth dealer shoot outs have in common but if you’ve reached a conclusion based on wound channel or how far the deer ran after being shot, I’d say it likely had less to do with the 168 FGMM ammo and more the shooter.

 

[hlee]

Winchester Match, 168 SMK, unfortunately discontinued. I’m not advocating the load, though it is very accurate in my rifles, just commenting on the bullet performance. My 16” AR shoots this with a measured muzzle velocity of 2350fps. The deer was only 60 yards. Strelok calculates an impact velocity of 2236 fps. Assuming one had a rifle that could achieve the mv listed on the box of 2680, that’s a hypothetical impact at ~220 yards. No, he wasn’t driving a car, or barricaded in an appartment… and, I didn’t do an autopsy so there aren’t any shredded organ pics. But, the exit wound is more than penciling in and out…

 

[hlee]

Not sure what killing deer and terminal ballistics on barricaded meth dealer shoot outs have in common but if you’ve reached a conclusion based on wound channel or how far the deer ran after being shot, I’d say it likely had less to do with the 168 FGMM ammo and more the shooter.

One could argue the same point regarding ballistics gelatin, or pork shoulders wrapped in blue jeans, or water jugs, or wet newspaper, or whatever. For the vast majority of shooters, terminal effects of bullets hitting live targets are anecdotal. Deer are, however, approximately the same mass as an adult male human, and are the closest approximation to a human subject that most will ever encounter.

 

[nikerret]

Another choice is the Gold Dot offerings.

 

[j-huskey]

Canoe the head, deer, or meth head with a 168, the deer head is generally tougher, the hide is stronger, Fer sure, ... no, not showing the crime scene photos, no...
But,

 

[Joshua1:9b]

Not sure what killing deer and terminal ballistics on barricaded meth dealer shoot outs have in common but if you’ve reached a conclusion based on wound channel or how far the deer ran after being shot, I’d say it likely had less to do with the 168 FGMM ammo and more the shooter.

Back to back standing shots at about 200 yards with a Acog. Pretty sure it’s not the shooter.

First one is a broadside through and through pencil size hole. Even with a direct heart shot the deer didn’t die instantly.

On the second one I tried to Nick the edge of the front shoulder to get the bullet to tumble, and it did. Sounded like a drum being hit and it dropped.

Closest thing I can get to real world results without being a serial killer.

 

[308pirate]

The documented average spiper engagement distance for U.S. law enforcement personnel is 50-55 yards. Why is employing extremely low drag (ELD) match grade ammunition even a consideration? Law enforcement studies have concerns of over-penetration with match grade ammunition at these distances. Intermediate barrier profile and angle of incidence may screw up your first shot to the target, subsequent degradation of the barrier by the first round may provide better second shot placement which is the ultimate arbiter of success to the situation; sequential loading your magazines with different ammunition profiles might be a consideration. IF you zero your rifle at 100 yards you still have height-over-bore issues to consider for the shot. The NTOA (National Tactical Officers Assoc.) has endorsed the .308 ELD Hornady products.

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Can you describe for us all you LE sniper credentials and experience?