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Rifle Scopes New SWFA SS 1-4 HD just arrived

Prairie Dog Dundee

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 20, 2002
660
0
Utah
I'm very impressed. I was lucky enough to get to spend time with the prototype of these scopes a few months ago and was hopeful that the production models would be as nice as the prototypes. I'm happy to say that the production models are better. The prototypes had a rheostat adjustment on the illumination knob. The production model has 11 positions with an off setting between each setting so you can keep the position near your favorite setting. The knob also has a compartment to keep a spare battery in, nice touch.

The eleven illumination settings run from dim enough to only be practical in total darkness to daylight practical/visible. If anything it is slightly brighter than the prototypes whose picture you may have seen in various posts.

The elevation and windage adjustments are crisp and offer enough resistance to make accidentally changing them unlikely, (I have the exposed knob model). The adjustment increments are .1 mils with 10 mils per rotation.

The glass is better than I usually buy. I own several Leupold VXIIIs, Vortex Vipers, Weavers, Bushnells and this is the best glass I own by far. It is a professional grade optic.

The finish is a black mate and appears to be pretty rugged and the same finish that the prototypes had. I know the prototypes passed through several hands before I received them. I mounted them in a SWFA mount and GG&G QD mount. How many times they were mounted I don't know but when I sent them back I could not see any ring marks.

I got the circle reticle that, coupled with the FFP feature, allows you to "switch" between a red dot like reticle to a mil dot reticle with .1 mil adjustments and 10 mils per rotation. This design shows that SWFA is not afraid to think outside the box, This is not another "Me to" BDC that depends on a specific caliber, bullet weight and barrel length for its accuracy. Rather, it is a flexible system that allows you to come up with an accurate drop chart for any caliber, bullet weight or barrel length. The mildot can also be used as a BDC if you know your trajectory and distance.

I also got one of SWFAs new mounts (manufactured by BOBRO). One was loaned to me when when I tested the prototypes and it is excellent. The "Low, slightly forward" product number SWFA201300 places the SS 1-4 HD perfectly on an AR. I've used GG&G for years for flat top optics on an AR with out much thought. This mount has an excellent fit and finish and one feature that sets it apart, The lever that releases and tightens the mount to the rail has a lock on it that must be pushed down to release it.

I'll post pics after I mount it.

Thanks SWFA you have exceeded my expectation....again.

 
Re: New SWFA SS 1-4 HD just arrived

Lucky! Mine doesn't get here until Friday afternoon.

If you're taking requests, I'd like to see more details of the ocular bell. How exactly does the diopter adjustment move? Is there indeed a lock ring for it? Does locking the diopter adjustment essentially misalign the fluting on the ocular bell assembly?

How smooth is the mag ring? Does there appear to be enough room on the mag ring for someone to attach a cat-tail?

Have you figured out what BC caps fit the scope?

Post those pics!

Thanks

 
Re: New SWFA SS 1-4 HD just arrived

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: glock24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lucky! Mine doesn't get here until Friday afternoon. <span style="color: #FF0000">UPS overnight</span>

If you're taking requests, I'd like to see more details of the ocular bell. How exactly does the diopter adjustment move? <span style="color: #CC0000"> It rotates but is larger than most measuring about 2"</span> Is there indeed a lock ring for it? <span style="color: #FF0000"> Yes, the center ring locks the adjustment</span> Does locking the diopter adjustment essentially misalign the fluting on the ocular bell assembly? <span style="color: #FF0000"> That will depend on your vision and where your adjuesment lands</span>

How smooth is the mag ring? Does there appear to be enough room on the mag ring for someone to attach a cat-tail? <span style="color: #FF0000"> The mag ring is an inch wide and slopes toward the objective lens end of the scope. About 2/3s of it is fluted and I would think a "Cat Tail" could be mounted. However, "cat tails" are diamiter specific. I don't think you will find a "one size fits all"</span>

Have you figured out what BC caps fit the scope? <span style="color: #FF0000">Sorry no, but good question </span>

Post those pics! <span style="color: #FF0000"> As soon as I get where my camara is
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</span>

Thanks

</div></div>
 
Re: New SWFA SS 1-4 HD just arrived

Pictures or it didn't happen...
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Re: New SWFA SS 1-4 HD just arrived

Nice...how does that triple stack illumination dial work?
 
Re: New SWFA SS 1-4 HD just arrived

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: recce556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice...how does that triple stack illumination dial work? </div></div>

Outer section is the cap to the spare battery compartment. Next piece is the body of the spare battery compartment which is also the cap to the battery is service compartment. This all turns to adjust the brightness of the reticle illumination which has 11 settings with an off position between each position.
 
Re: New SWFA SS 1-4 HD just arrived

Argh! Mine got here too late for me to go pick it up (shipped to a mailbox).

I'm in Texas so it only took a day even with standard shipping, but then I have to pay sales tax.
 
Re: New SWFA SS 1-4 HD just arrived

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: spr1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do these have a zero stop? </div></div>

No
 
Re: New SWFA SS 1-4 HD just arrived

Don't have mine yet to play with but it looks like you could do a "po-boy" zero stop by completely removing the knob reset screw, lifting the knob off, and putting the right thickness washers underneath the cap so that it can't go down much past your zero.

You may or may not be able to get it exactly stop on zero every time, so it may not be suitable for resetting to zero in the dark without looking at the knob, but it would at least get you close enough not to worry about what turn you are on (not that one is particularly likely to go past 10 mils on a 1-4x scope).
 
Re: New SWFA SS 1-4 HD just arrived

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mine hasn't even shipped yet, and my order on SWFA still says backordered.

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Mine'll be shipped out today via overnight. There was another item on my order that was backordered.
 
Re: New SWFA SS 1-4 HD just arrived

Pdd I will gladly reimburse you your costs if you could put in a fresh battery on brightest setting and track how long it stays lit up.
 
Re: New SWFA SS 1-4 HD just arrived

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: stinkyDrunk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Pdd I will gladly reimburse you your costs if you could put in a fresh battery on brightest setting and track how long it stays lit up. </div></div>

We started one Monday (the 14th)at 8am on the highest setting. It's still on as of right now. Going on 78 straight hrs.

It's lost some of its juice. Compared next to a fresh illuminated one it's at a brightness level of 7 while on intensity 11.
 
Re: New SWFA SS 1-4 HD just arrived

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Prairie Dog Dundee</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: recce556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice...how does that triple stack illumination dial work? </div></div>

Outer section is the cap to the spare battery compartment. Next piece is the body of the spare battery compartment which is also the cap to the battery is service compartment. This all turns to adjust the brightness of the reticle illumination which has 11 settings with an off position between each position. </div></div>
Ah, ok, thanks for the info!

Locking turrets would be nice...
 
Re: New SWFA SS 1-4 HD just arrived

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: recce556</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Prairie Dog Dundee</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: recce556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice...how does that triple stack illumination dial work? </div></div>

Outer section is the cap to the spare battery compartment. Next piece is the body of the spare battery compartment which is also the cap to the battery is service compartment. This all turns to adjust the brightness of the reticle illumination which has 11 settings with an off position between each position. </div></div>
Ah, ok, thanks for the info!

Locking turrets would be nice... </div></div>

Module.JPG
 
Re: New SWFA SS 1-4 HD just arrived

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SWFA</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: stinkyDrunk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Pdd I will gladly reimburse you your costs if you could put in a fresh battery on brightest setting and track how long it stays lit up. </div></div>

We started one Monday (the 14th)at 8am on the highest setting. It's still on as of right now. Going on 78 straight hrs.

It's lost some of its juice. Compared next to a fresh illuminated one it's at a brightness level of 7 while on intensity 11.
</div></div>

Thank you.

Any recollection on when you noticed the degradation?
 
Re: New SWFA SS 1-4 HD just arrived

I got mine this morning and played with it. Nice scope. I hope to get it mounted and shoot tomorrow or Saturday.
 
Re: New SWFA SS 1-4 HD just arrived

I have a razor 1-4 and just from what I see I like the battery cover on this SS 100% more. The razor has a cheap aluminum cover with a screw driver slot that mars everytime I attempt to take it off. VERY agervating! Good work there swfa!
 
Re: New SWFA SS 1-4 HD just arrived

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: recce556</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Prairie Dog Dundee</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: recce556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice...how does that triple stack illumination dial work? </div></div>

Outer section is the cap to the spare battery compartment. Next piece is the body of the spare battery compartment which is also the cap to the battery is service compartment. This all turns to adjust the brightness of the reticle illumination which has 11 settings with an off position between each position. </div></div>
Ah, ok, thanks for the info!

Locking turrets would be nice... </div></div>

The locking turret thing is lost on me, do people inadvertently spin their turrets that much? Capped, sure, no problem, but locking target turrets?

To each, his own, I guess. Leupold is doing it, Zeiss is doing it, and I have yet to use a locking target turret I liked.

I am quite pleased with the turrets on the current version.
 
Re: New SWFA SS 1-4 HD just arrived

Got mine this morning.

Great stuff from my cursory look out of the box. Glass is as good as scopes in a MUCH higher price bracket.

Turrets are nice. Lit reticle is daytime visible.

Outstanding work, SWFA.
 
Re: New SWFA SS 1-4 HD just arrived

Any plans for a cattail for the zoom ring? I'm not sure how fast 3GunStuff or R&R Targets will make them unless SWFA is asking for them...

As for the locking target turrets, I'm almost positive this feature shows up at the request of military users.
 
Re: New SWFA SS 1-4 HD just arrived

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SWFA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
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</div></div>
Thanks for the photo!
 
Re: New SWFA SS 1-4 HD just arrived

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A cattail would be awesome. </div></div>

In the works.

Should be availabe in 3-4 weeks.
 
Re: New SWFA SS 1-4 HD just arrived

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SWFA</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A cattail would be awesome. </div></div>

In the works.

Should be availabe in 3-4 weeks. </div></div>

Eeeeeexxxxxxxcellent
 
Re: New SWFA SS 1-4 HD just arrived

I really like the scope so far. Shot it a good bit yesterday. I have never used a 1-4x scope before to speak of. It is going to take some getting used to on 1X coming from an Aimpoint, but I think it won't make much of a speed difference up close and will be a lot faster on longer targets.

I have the scope in a LaRue SPR-1.5 on an AR I built with a 16" stainless Noveske Recce barrel. It comfortably clears the Troy BUIS I have. I was able to shoot quickly and accurately out to 100 yards but the longer ranges where I shoot were closed yesterday (200,300,600,1000). Not really the point of this scope but off a bipod and rear bag I was shooting easily sub-MOA 10-shot groups at 100 yards with CORBON 77gr SMK ammunition.

I only have a couple of little gripes.

1. When you reset the turrets to zero, the zero doesn't always quite line up with the hash below the turret.

2. The reticle illumination is not really visible even at 11 on bright days against light backgrounds or the sky (outside at the range yesterday morning I couldn't tell it was on until I put my hand in front of the scope - inside, or on an overcast day like today, it looks quite bright). It is possible both batteries that came with the scope were not good, or maybe the illumination is daylight-but-not-brilliant-daylight visible. I don't have any extra batteries to try, I will try to pick some up today.

I will definitely order a cattail when they are available.
 
Re: New SWFA SS 1-4 HD just arrived

@SWFA - Got mine yesterday and I have to say I think you folks did a *great* job. I'm a happy camper.
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Now where did I put that Sadlak mount...
 
Re: New SWFA SS 1-4 HD just arrived

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: maladat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I really like the scope so far. Shot it a good bit yesterday. I have never used a 1-4x scope before to speak of. It is going to take some getting used to on 1X coming from an Aimpoint, but I think it won't make much of a speed difference up close and will be a lot faster on longer targets.

I have the scope in a LaRue SPR-1.5 on an AR I built with a 16" stainless Noveske Recce barrel. It comfortably clears the Troy BUIS I have. I was able to shoot quickly and accurately out to 100 yards but the longer ranges where I shoot were closed yesterday (200,300,600,1000). Not really the point of this scope but off a bipod and rear bag I was shooting easily sub-MOA 10-shot groups at 100 yards with CORBON 77gr SMK ammunition.

I only have a couple of little gripes.

1. When you reset the turrets to zero, the zero doesn't always quite line up with the hash below the turret. <span style="color: #FF0000">I've used three different samples and did not see this. I looked because my orignal 10X scope had this problem. </span>

2. The reticle illumination is not really visible even at 11 on bright days against light backgrounds or the sky (outside at the range yesterday morning I couldn't tell it was on until I put my hand in front of the scope - inside, or on an overcast day like today, it looks quite bright). It is possible both batteries that came with the scope were not good, or maybe the illumination is daylight-but-not-brilliant-daylight visible. I don't have any extra batteries to try, I will try to pick some up today. <span style="color: #FF0000">The only time I saw this was on a bright day looking at a snow covered hill side. I shifted to where part of the reticle was on snow and part in a shadow made by a tree and could see the illumination in the shadow. If it is bright enough to wash out the illumination you'll get better contrast with the black reticule.</span>

I will definitely order a cattail when they are available. </div></div>
 
Re: New SWFA SS 1-4 HD just arrived

Has anyone mentioned what the correct BC flip up lens cover sizes are?
 
Re: New SWFA SS 1-4 HD just arrived

Please don't make the cattail too long...it only needs to be a stub...maybe two versions? One short and one regular length. I find that the "regular" length ones tend to catch on stuff when you're wearing gear.
 
Re: New SWFA SS 1-4 HD just arrived

My exposed turret T-reticle will be here today.

I'm not even home to open the box yet but I'm already considering shipping it back for the donut version. I placed a very hasty order last week and after ordering I found Jon A's reticle pics on optics talk here and here I'm having second thoughts about buying the T-reticle.

Based on Jon's pics I like the donut reticle better for fast acquisition of close targets (the inner circle really grabs the eye and centers the target quickly) but the reticle looks too busy for my preference at 4X with the large solid circle. The T-reticle is the opposite-- based on the pics it doesn't catch & center my eye as quickly on 1x for close targets but I greatly prefer the less cluttered view it offers at 4X.

I guess I need to make up my mind if I prefer the reticle "biased" towards close 1X or more distant 4X work.

Either way the scope appears to be a solid piece. I just need to decide if I want to unbox and mount the T-reticle that is currently waiting on my doorstep or ship it back for the donut...
 
Re: New SWFA SS 1-4 HD just arrived

Mounted and fired with my SS 1-4x today on my R-15 (Remington AR) in 204 Ruger. It is my coyote gun.

Sweet stuff.

My only con:
It would be nice if there were .5 mil marks on the reticle. Tuning the scope in perfectly took some work with only 1 mil hash marks and 4x magnification. Even at just 50 yards it was tough.
 
Re: New SWFA SS 1-4 HD just arrived

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mounted and fired with my SS 1-4x today on my R-15 (Remington AR) in 204 Ruger. It is my coyote gun.

Sweet stuff.

My only con:
It would be nice if there were .5 mil marks on the reticle. Tuning the scope in perfectly took some work with only 1 mil hash marks and 4x magnification. Even at just 50 yards it was tough. </div></div>

Good to hear.

When I arrived home, rather than immediately re-boxing the T-reticle scope to ship back to exchange it for a donut reticle I decided to take the scope out of its box (it wasn't taped) for a quick look-through to decide if I really wanted to return it for the donut reticle.

After looking through it and playing with the illumination I decided to mount it to the rifle. It's plenty fast IMO for up close work (especially with the illumination on) and the nice "open" sight picture on 4X is what made up my mind.

It's now installed on my 16" AR which is used as an all-around plinker when camping, 200-500 yard steel clanger, and it's my go-to coyote gun for the field behind the house. After playing with the scope for a bit I think for my usual usage the T-reticle does the trick.

I'm impressed with the firmness of the knob rotation & detents. There's enough friction on the knobs to make it difficult to accidentally rotate them but the detents are good and defined. Being 10 mils/turn on such a small diameter knob the hash marks are fairly small but they're still easy to see.

I'm hoping the rain holds off this weekend so I can sight it in and use it. Based off build quality, knob feel, daylight useful reticle illumination, a great reticle design, and extremely clear glass SWFA has a real winner on their hands. It's the first SS scope I've ever purchased or looked through and I'm extremely happy with it.

Unfortunately after looking at the reticle pics again last night and sleeping on it I think I might order a donut reticle version to run a back to back comparison and sell one of them. Buying both and selling one is certainly the expensive way to make up my mind. Argh!

<span style="font-weight: bold">EDIT 2/23:</span>

Thanks to some *excellent* customer service by Chris Farris I now have a DOD reticle version and a 2nd Bobro mount on the way for back to back comparison in both short and longer range situations. Sometimes I wish I was more decisive... LOL!
 
Re: New SWFA SS 1-4 HD just arrived

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Went out yote hunting this morning with the SS 1-4x donut.

Took down a big song dog. The reticle was a real help in acquiring. </div></div>

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Give us the details. How far?
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Re: New SWFA SS 1-4 HD just arrived

I think you made the right choice. I instinctively wanted the donut as I was going to get an Aimpoint, but after further thought realized that the illuminated crosshair was just as effective.
Turn the illumination up to 11 and I think you'll be happy with the results. At 4x you'll be glad you have the crosshairs IMO. My only real concern is battery life. Anybody figured out how many hours it'll last yet?
 
Re: New SWFA SS 1-4 HD just arrived

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Prairie Dog Dundee</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Went out yote hunting this morning with the SS 1-4x donut.

Took down a big song dog. The reticle was a real help in acquiring. </div></div>

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Give us the details. How far?
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</div></div>

Most coyote hunting in my area is done in confined quarters (woods and hills), not long open fields. 40 yards, but all I had was a head shot. He peeked over the ridge at about 10 o'clock and stopped while my spotter was calling to keep his attention. They come quick and leave faster. It's a different beast from coyote hunting out west; you generally don't have an opportunity to see them until they're on top of you. So much so that hunting coyotes with shotgun a very common thing. Some people I know prefer it.

That's why I was looking for a fast scope that would help bring me on target quick, rather than a powerful one that would let me see for miles.

This SS did the trick. It is very nice and did for me exactly what I hoped it would.
 
Re: New SWFA SS 1-4 HD just arrived

I now have the donut and T-reticle versions on hand and was able to do some quick close range tests (out to 25 yards) today when I came home from work.

I tried both reticles at 1x on a USPSA target setup at 25 yards. Starting from low gun and using a timer I wanted to see how fast I could shoulder the gun, get in the scope and on target and fire a single round. I'm not a 3-gun guy (yet) but I figure this was a good test for how quick each reticle was at close range. The donut reticle was not only a little faster from buzzer to shot but more telling was that the shot placement was more accurate compared to the T-reticle. Not by much but between the timer and targets it was readily apparent which reticle worked better for me at close range. The donut really grabs your eye and naturally centers itself on the target. With the T-reticle I was forming a quick sight picture using the 3 inner posts. It wasn't as intuitive as the donut and that showed in the times & shot placement. Both reticles got the job done but the donut was simply more effective.

While I didn't get a chance to shoot at any longer ranges (that will come tomorrow, Sunday, or Monday) I did take both scopes out and look at objects between 100-300 yards on 4X. Here the T-reticle has the more open and uncluttered view. The T-reticle is my preference at 4X.

With the donut reticle on 4X the now large circle isn't as much as a view obstruction as I thought it would be. However, I found it has another effect: I naturally wanted to center the target not only on the crosshairs but also in the circle-- which is OK as long as you don't want to do any holdovers. I very quickly noticed that I simulated a holdover I would catch myself trying to recenter the target within the large circle. The secondary circle is a real magnet for centering an object on 4X and I had to think about it and make an effort to maintain the holdover. I wasn't expecting that. I'm sure it will be easy to overcome with some use & practice.

Random thought... If SWFA could change the magnification range to say 1-6X, keep the current donut-reticle design but scale the reticle in conjuction with the wider magnification range such that the donut goes out of the field of view entirely leaving only the inner crosshairs at maximum magnification that would be fantastic. All the advantages of the donut at low powers and no FOV obstruction or donut "distraction" at higher powers for longer range work. In my opinion that would truly be the best of both reticle designs.

In summary... I still can't decide which one I want to keep!
 
Re: New SWFA SS 1-4 HD just arrived

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kiba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I now have the donut and T-reticle versions on hand and was able to do some quick close range tests (out to 25 yards) today when I came home from work.

I tried both reticles at 1x on a USPSA target setup at 25 yards. Starting from low gun and using a timer I wanted to see how fast I could shoulder the gun, get in the scope and on target and fire a single round. I'm not a 3-gun guy (yet) but I figure this was a good test for how quick each reticle was at close range. The donut reticle was not only a little faster from buzzer to shot but more telling was that the shot placement was more accurate compared to the T-reticle. Not by much but between the timer and targets it was readily apparent which reticle worked better for me at close range. The donut really grabs your eye and naturally centers itself on the target. With the T-reticle I was forming a quick sight picture using the 3 inner posts. It wasn't as intuitive as the donut and that showed in the times & shot placement. Both reticles got the job done but the donut was simply more effective.

While I didn't get a chance to shoot at any longer ranges (that will come tomorrow, Sunday, or Monday) I did take both scopes out and look at objects between 100-300 yards on 4X. Here the T-reticle has the more open and uncluttered view. The T-reticle is my preference at 4X.

With the donut reticle on 4X the now large circle isn't as much as a view obstruction as I thought it would be. However, I found it has another effect: I naturally wanted to center the target not only on the crosshairs but also in the circle-- which is OK as long as you don't want to do any holdovers. I very quickly noticed that I simulated a holdover I would catch myself trying to recenter the target within the large circle. The secondary circle is a real magnet for centering an object on 4X and I had to think about it and make an effort to maintain the holdover. I wasn't expecting that. I'm sure it will be easy to overcome with some use & practice.

Random thought... If SWFA could change the magnification range to say 1-6X, keep the current donut-reticle design but scale the reticle in conjuction with the wider magnification range such that the donut goes out of the field of view entirely leaving only the inner crosshairs at maximum magnification that would be fantastic. All the advantages of the donut at low powers and no FOV obstruction or donut "distraction" at higher powers for longer range work. In my opinion that would truly be the best of both reticle designs.

In summary... I still can't decide which one I want to keep! </div></div>

Keep both!
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