Night Vision New to Night Vision Questions.

[djpaintles]

Please forgive me if these questions have already been answered. I've been researching for several days and still have some questions I haven't seen an answer for.

My brother and I are looking to invest in night vision. Mainly predator control and hog hunting. Some hunting from blinds and some stalking.

My research so far seems to say that I need both a sight and a monocular for spotting. I'm leaning towards Pulsar as the brand within budget with the highest performance.

Big question I haven't seen answered is whether or not a decent thermal sight for example a Pulsar Trail Q?30 is a usable 24hrs a day sight? I know Abrams gunners that say they used their thermal 24/7. Does a Thermal weapon sight like the Pulsar Trail help you pick out a deer in the woods after sunrise? Does a good Thermal monocular help you track wounded game in the daytime? I ask because if it's a good 24/7 sight I could justify spending more. Harder to justify spending as much for something only usable at night.

I saw comments from one user here that suggested the spotter was more important to spend the most on. I'm inclined as a gun nut to spend more on the sight but am I wrong? Is a good Thermal like the Pulsar trail usable enough with its phone app to spend more on it than the spotter?

We are hoping to find decent gear in the 2500-3500 range for both. My bro mentioned he'd rather have a Chevy as long as it works than to spend the extra money for Cadillac features. What are your recommendations to newbies? (OK I have a AN/PVS2 that works but it's so big and heavy Im not sure it's relevant anymore)

Thanks for your help and advice. I've already learned a lot from the other posts here.

........................dj

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Thermal can work during the day but it isn't as effective as it is during nights or cooler temps. When the suns heats the terrain up during the day critters don't pop like they do at night when everything isn't heated up from the sun. This is more so in warmer months. But yes it does work, just not as well as a day scope sometimes or as well as at night. It will help aide in tracking wounded game or runners.

I would prefer to have a higher end/better resolution scanner than optic. ID and then get on the gun to make the shot. You know where the game is already and you can ID as well as a thermal is going to ID before you even move to get on the gun. If the resolution on the sight isn't quite as great it won't be as big of a deal as long as you have located it and ID'd it already.

When you say 2500-3500 for both, do you mean per unit, or total budget? If it's per unit you should be able to get a decent setup, if it's for both then you're going to end up with junk for both I'm afraid. It would be best to pick one or the other to start with and then buy the other later. You can also buy NV instead of thermal for the sight which will get you much better stuff for the money. If you get gen 3 you can use the sight for IDing to greater distance than you will with thermal and sacrifice a little on the thermal for only using it for detection and have to ID every with the sight.

 

[Surgeon_Shooter]

I’m a deer hunter and I’m all about it! I never ever go to the woods without my spotter. There’s been a thousand times I’ve been sitting in my climbing stand thinking there’s nothing around, grab my thermal just because I’m bored, and immediately spot 2-3 deer within 100 yards in a thicket.

I prefer to have a high resolution unit as my spotter AND weapon scope. This stuff can last a fella a lifetime if it’s treated right. Don’t rush into a scope just because it’s what you can afford, save and get exactly what you want. Or even try and figure a way you can do multiple things with 1 really good unit. Maybe like a reap ir with a good QD mount on it. That’s what I would do. Then you can spot with it and pop it on to shoot. The reap is a personal favorite of mine. We killed 12 hogs with one rifle and 1 reap ir Saturday night. Shots out to 300 with ease.

Jay

 

[wigwamitus]

I'm going to be the "contrarian" here ... I've never much seen a purpose in a "spotter only" device ... the only thermal I've ever owned that couldn't be on a rifle is the PAS-29 ... which runs as an overlay thermal on a 14 ... though it can be weaponized with an ir-laser.
Otherwise, all my thermals can be either clipons or rifle scopes (at least one of those, not necessarily both).
Yes the patrol and the ODIN I use primarily as helmet mounted spotters, but, they have reticles and work fine as short distance sights on rifles.

So, if it was me, with a $3500 budget I'd either get a PVS-14 and an ir-laser and a helmet setup OR a Pulsar Apex or a Trail with at least a 38mm focal length .. so either a 38mm or a 50mm ... and one with a focus ring, not a fixed focus. The low cost FLIRs and Pulsars with fixed focus have them set close in and the image degrades beyond 100yds.
I've trained myself to hold up the rifle and scan. I put my elbows on my chest and the stock on my shoulder and all that distributes the weight from my arm muscles thru the bones touching my chest to my body. Not 100% but enough to matter significantly. And I wrap trigger hand around the 30rd magazine. If one arm gets tired I can shift the weight to the other arm.
And yes I know 100 people will say it doesn't work. But I know it works for at least one person, me.
I go out like that most nights ... 2-3 times ... 30-120 per mins outing depending on what I find out there ... so you can train for it if you want to ... (but not if you don't want to )

My go to night carbine ... Colt upper with 10.3 barrel ... Trijicon mk3 60mm scope, steiner cqbl ir-laser and aac-mini on the front ... 10 pounds 7 oz with ammo ... people say it is heavy ... but they should pick up my longer barrel rifles

It also matters how far you need to scan and how far you need to shoot. So I'm assuming you need to scan out 500-800yds at least and shoot 200-300yds maximum.

==
The other option is to keep saving ... like redneck says ...

And I'd drop that requirement to make your night optics work in the day ... if desperate it can work ... but day optics work better in the day ... use day optics for the day and night optics for the night

 

[TanktheFrank]

It's all about preference and location for me. If it's consistently humid as shit where you hunt, dont go thermal. If you're really picky about what you shoot and target ID, dont go thermal. For me nv was the only option, with thermal where I do most of my hunting it would just be washed out from the humidity and I'd be shooting a blobs if anything, and I need to be very particular on the ranches I hunt by shooting breeding sows first. You can get pretty damn good deals for 3k. I know for a fact there was a guy in the Houston area selling a set of gen 3 pvs 14s on a bridge (with mount a for single use) for 3k with a little haggling (damn college budget kept me from scoppin em up.)

 

[wigwamitus]

Aye, I haven't tried hunting in the "tropics" yet

But for me around here ... I live along a creek and there are lots of woods and tree lines ... and I've been taking the PVS-30 out about every third night for the past month ... and unless there is some moon up ... I can't see thru the tree lines or into the woods ... have to have thermal for that ... reduces my LOS by 90% using the PVS-30 over the MK3 60mm or the UTC-x ... and at least this month ... we've had heavy overcast on most of the moon nights ...

And I don't have a lot of no shoot scenarios on my land ... I'm going for predators within ~100yds of the chickens ... don't have to pick over the coyotes to decide which to get ...

 

[j-huskey]

Where i live, u can't use electronically enhanced sights on the weapon during hunting seasons, ONLY can use on crop damage permits. And if a light/laser/sight is weapons mountable, it is also prohibited unless you are disabled and have a disabled permit. So for us..... (in season).....
I have non weapons mountable "spotters" to stay legal, that are out of your price range, most of them in your price range are 100 and in. That's no good for me. So...
Price wise, in the 4k range, you can get a usable flir pro pts223 sight and a flir breach spotter and do a lot with it, but not to the extent you described you wanted it to perform.
You can learn through use, to overcome some of the equipment shortcomings and extend usable range as your experience level grows, but that's not near as satisfactory as better equipment performance "once better equipment spoils you".
Lotta good advice from a few on here, but your price range is the real limiter.
I have used older Pulsars with really good results, can't tell you about the new ones.
And yes, I use my trijicon/IR-Reap in daylight and it's worked just fine, but it's twice your budget price, so...

But, I couldn't live without the helmet mounted pvs14 to move about at night with, and 3+ units can eat your budget too. It's REALLY hard to get a working set up, 14, spotter, and weapons sight under 10k, that does close to what u ask for. We priced out a kit set to a farmer here, and 10k was as low as minimal functioning kit we could set up to meet his "asking".
Best of luck.

Pay real close attention to what wigwamitus says, it's golden advice.

I am definitely against the grain of advice on thermal vs night vision, and the limitations of thermal in high humidity....
I live in a really high humidity region, and yes, i have seen humidity roll in and cut our thermal distance use from 800 yards to 100 yards...... I have seen ground interference just about shut thermal down....
BUT, I have seen the same conditions blow nv out of the water and shut it completely down where with thermal we still were functioning. And yes, we have used thermal on large bodies of water where humidity was 100%.... where with nv, it was like trying to look through a fog bank, and nv was useless, and thermal still worked. (and those smoke, dust, and fog issues are the reason US mil uses more thermal than nv)
Contrary to several here... very contrary.

 

[TanktheFrank]

Different strokes for different folks I guess. I wont say I havent had issues with nv, however I sill say that I have not used some of the higher end thermal units you mentioned. I just know that for around these parts, nv is the tits for what I do.

 

[j-huskey]

Texas has some really nice nv hunting areas........ been a couple of years since I was out there though, do miss my friends there.


We do use our stuff for a lot more than hunting game animals.
We look for nursing home and psych ward walk offs, missing or misplaced children, runaways, and every now and then, a custodial escapee...
We made a tube device that looks like a half grenade launcher, top and side rails, two ar15 pistol grips (one front/one back), and a collapseable ar stock. Can mount thermal, nv, illuminators, and or camera... so when we look for people, it doesn't look like we are pointing a gun.

 

[deersniper]

I wouldn't be without a good thermal scanner. Something with wide field of view.

 

[wigwamitus]

I like thermal scanners also !!! As long as they are hands free, on my head ... here is a setup with a patrol on the left and a 14 and 29 on the right ... detect and PID with the Patrol ... and engage with the laser/14/29 ... I finally got to try this recently and it does work for me !!

==
But if I can only have 1 thermal (per the OPs problem) ... I want it on the rifle so I can shoot with it ... and I will have to hold up to scan ...

Re-stated .. if I have to choose between thermal scanner on the helmet or thermal on the weapon ... I think I want the thermal on the weapon ... even though with thermal on head I can engage faster ... but with thermal on the weapon I can engage farther out ... that said ... depends on the situation ... if I was knocking down doors ... I want the helmet/laser option
But since I'm not, I want the rifle mounted option!

 

[cuz]

Are there any preferred websites where a newb can go to learn about NV devices? I think I’d like to have one “just because”...

 

[wigwamitus]

Sniper's Hide !!!
You came to the right spot!
Just start a thread and ask your questions ... or if you want to read up ... then read some of the threads ...

 

[Inifinty]

Most of this has been said, but I'll try to reword.

With limited budget, thermal mounted on the rifle is going to provide more opportunity to hunt under more conditions but not all.

Night vision enhanced with either bright moonlight or IR flashlight would better allow one to differentiate a buck from "the buck" you may have had your sights on for a while. That capability depends largely on distance, the amount of IR light the subject is painted with, and if there is a clear line of sight to the target.

Night vision mounted to your head is going to work best for walking around navigating obstacles so you dont fall over a log or into a hole..

A lot of videos on this channel my answer your questions

 

[deersniper]

For your budget, get a thermal scanner and a Luna illuminator and this price to sell PVS4.
You will kill everything
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/gen3-pvs-4.6875336/
PVS4 is big and heavy but that brings with it durability and a giant lens to gather light.

 

[Rerun7]

OP, I was recently in the same boat. I wasted a little money on the wrong gear at first too.

Now, I can’t imagine going out for any type of hunting without my thermal scanner. That is the biggest game changer I’ve ever added to my gear. I’ll be using it for day and night hunting from now on.

I also decided I like thermal better than NV for shooting, especially in the woods, but like NV for navigating.

The lesson I learned was to spend a little more up front and be happier in the end.

 

[djpaintles]

How well do red-Dot sights that have night vision settings work with NV or thermal helmet mounted binoculars? I already own a couple aimpoints and Eotechs that have the night vision settings, would it be workable to spend all the budget at first on a good helmet mounted NV or Thermal and use them to sight the red dots with? I assume that it would have to be a shorter range under a hundred yards or less?

 

[deersniper]

Thermal sees heat you can't see lasers with them.

 

[wigwamitus]

So called "NV Settings" on red dot/reflex sights are actually just real low power settings ... what those buy you is the ability to mount a pvs-14 behind the sight and see thru the sight ...

I don't mount like that any more ... but from the dark past 3.5 years ago ... here is 5.56(14.5) with EO Tech (with NV settings) and a PVS-14 (with 3x magnifier screwed on the front) mounted to the rear. And a T-20 illuminator on the 6 o'clock.

==
But the "red dot" of a "red dot sight" does not project light forward ... lasers do that ... and thermals cannot see most lasers ... (only very expensive ones we cannot buy).

 

[djpaintles]

How well to the QR mounts return to zero? Would it be at all feasible to use a scope like the pulsar trail off the rifle as a monocular while stalking or spotting and then attach it to the rifle before shooting? How useful are the phone apps on scopes like the Pulsar trail?

 

[redneckbmxer24]

How well do red-Dot sights that have night vision settings work with NV or thermal helmet mounted binoculars? I already own a couple aimpoints and Eotechs that have the night vision settings, would it be workable to spend all the budget at first on a good helmet mounted NV or Thermal and use them to sight the red dots with? I assume that it would have to be a shorter range under a hundred yards or less?

You won't see the dot with a thermal and trying to line up a red dot with a head mounted monocular can be pretty painful, it's not quite the same as just looking during the day. You really want it weapon mounted if you do this. A better option is a good weapon mounted laser/illuminator like a dbal that you zero to the gun and then put the IR laser on your intended target using your head mounted NV. It has to be NV though, you won't see the laser with a thermal.

One of the civilian lasers is plenty adequate for this application. I find the distance you can accurately fire on game and the distance limitations of the lasers to be the same so no need for a restricted laser here.

You will still want a thermal for detection though. You just aren't going to see anywhere near the amount of stuff with NV that you will thermal.

 

[shurt]

"You will see more out of thermal than night vision" +1

I started with a thermal monocular to detect and purchased a NV clip on to identify and take my shot. It's been a great set up and I have few complaints but I'm sure most of these guys will tell you NV and thermal is addictive! I was going to buy a dedicated NV scope a few weeks ago and after a post plus messaging some of the Hide members, I've decided to buy a dedicated thermal scope. Yep, they changed my mind from night vision to a thermal dedicated scope.

If you can, its worth the time to search through the old post and learn. It's also worth your time to message members you trust and respect for specific questions. The Hide is a great source.

 

[Inifinty]

How well to the QR mounts return to zero? Would it be at all feasible to use a scope like the pulsar trail off the rifle as a monocular while stalking or spotting and then attach it to the rifle before shooting? How useful are the phone apps on scopes like the Pulsar trail?

My opinion, a single thermal mounted to the rifle is a viable option except when you need to move around a lot. It works out the arms a bit scanning and you might find it easier to hold the rifle in close with the butt over your shoulder while scanning as wigwamitus suggested. This works fine, just follow the safety rules and never point the thing in the direction of where there is the likenesses of something being there you don't want destroyed. The sectors of safe fire when hunting should be known anyhow.

I think a head mounted night vision for navigational purposes is the next logical step after the thermal. If you wanted to go with the NV first then you could supplement a head mounted NV unit with an IR aiming laser mounted to the rifle. This is probably better than mounting the NV behind a red dot, at least when shooting at stationary targets but the cost of the total package with helmet, mount, and laser starts to get high. The thing is when the targets start moving the thermal is much better at tracking an leading the target which is why I'd go that route first and maybe skip the IR aiming laser altogether unless you wanted a backup aiming method.

After you had the rifle mounted thermal and head mounted NV then I'd look to pick up a second thermal for scanning as something nice to have.