New Winchester Staball 6.5 ball powder

[RetiredChief]

Just got my SB 6.5. Going to try it in my 6.5 Creedmoor w/ 120 grain Barnes TTSX and the 127 Grain LRX.
What I've found:
120 grain: No Barnes data. Hodgdon (For 120 gr a-max bullet) shows 41.7 gr. @ 2735 Ft/Sec Max = 45.3 Gr @ 3004 ft/sec.
127 Gr Barnes shows 40.5 Gr @ 2584 ft/sec & a Max of 44.0C @ 2883 ft/sec
Hodgdon f/same bullet: 40.3 Gr @ 2602 ft/sec w/Max of 44.8 Gr @ 2891 ft/sec.

 

[RetiredChief]

I can't help you much, but I've wondered the same thing as well?

Something I've noticed also is: I've had a few guys recommend one freezing or cooling down their ammo in order to find out how your powder/rounds will act in colder temps... and I've only tried it once thus far, but it didn't really tell me much of anything. Shooting ammo that was reading 45degF per a temperature gun, while in the high 70's, was nothing at all like the results I got when actually shooting in conditions at an ambient ~45degF... maybe it works for some, but for me it didn't help at all really (except now I have some data on shooting 45F ammo in the upper 70F's).

I think you can only glean so much without actually having the ambient conditions in place...

Question: The rounds tested @ 70 vs rounds tested 45 degrees, were they loaded under the same conditions, IE
reloaded at the same time, if not was Temp and RH the same for both rounds. Reason I ask is that there MAYBE an additional factor - amount of water vapor trapped inside the case which may influence pressure. I repeat MAY,
From a physics point of view: I do know that if you increase the amount of water vapor, all other factors the same, pressure would increase as water vapor trapped increases. The amount of water vapor trapped inside a case. Effected by Temp, RH, Barometric pressure, and effected Most by % filled (PS even a compressed load will have some water vapor unless RH = 0). How much I can not say, it may be inconsequential, and just food for thought.

 

[CK1.0]

Question: The rounds tested @ 70 vs rounds tested 45 degrees, were they loaded under the same conditions, IE
reloaded at the same time, if not was Temp and RH the same for both rounds. Reason I ask is that there MAYBE an additional factor - amount of water vapor trapped inside the case which may influence pressure. I repeat MAY,
From a physics point of view: I do know that if you increase the amount of water vapor, all other factors the same, pressure would increase as water vapor trapped increases. The amount of water vapor trapped inside a case. Effected by Temp, RH, Barometric pressure, and effected Most by % filled (PS even a compressed load will have some water vapor unless RH = 0). How much I can not say, it may be inconsequential, and just food for thought.

IDK if that's it... The rounds weren't loaded at the same time, but they were loaded in the same conditions (indoor climate controlled reloading room).

There were quite a few different variables going on if I think about it: for example, someone had asked before about the gun not being the same temp each time, etc. I wasn't nearly as scientific and clinical about keeping track of what variables were in play each time.

Going forward I think I'm honestly going to revert to a good ol' old school notebook to keep track of the dope and speeds through the temps/seasons as we go from summer to fall, winter...

I do think there is probably ways to get some real data out of the freezing/cooling-ammo-thing to trick one's chronograph, but, and I'm no scientist, but the ambient conditions and the air quality the projectile encounters under those conditions while flying along plays a part, so good old notes from chrono days with load recipes, enviormentals, and speeds is probably best anyways.

I've been using Sta-Ball exclusively for 6 months and ~1.5 barrels, so I'm drinking the kool-aid and sticking with it until something better comes on the scene.

That said, if any of the powder companies out there want to release a temp-stable ball powder for rifle that beats Sta-Ball and is even better, I'll gladly hand over some of my money... I mean, dropping powder for a bunch of rounds in ~10mins, without any fancy equipment, that end up consistent enough to where they'll usually all land in a circle about the size of a basketball (softball on a good day) at 1000 yards is pretty awesome.

 

[RetiredChief]

Some times I come up with off-the-wall questions that are out in left field LOL. Comes from by background working on Satellites in a clean room environment. Could not work on instrument if 1) RH was below 30% (ESD increases as RH drops below 30% and 2 Water vapor had to be above 0.008 lbs per pound of dry air (lubricant that was used on instrument. Also my work on weather equipment - Temp vs RH effect jet engine thrust.

That said, I'm out in left field as water vapor is small, and volume is very small - Didn't think it thru O'well as I said food for thought and we all know what good food turns to.

 

[CK1.0]

No, good question to ask, I get it.

All of this shit is more about the science of combustion and physics anyways, if you used to work on satellites in clean rooms: you've probably already forgotten more than most of us will ever know...

 

[towerofpower93]

Question for the group on using StaBall with lighter bullets..... I picked up 2lbs of it when it briefly became available at powder valley but haven't shot any yet as I have been concenting on working up comp loads for my .260 gas gun. I checked on Hogden's site and they don't list any bullets less than 140's. I was hoping to try them with my 130 Bergers. Has anyone had any luck with the lighter bullets w/ Staball, especially in a gas gun? I don't want to waste a bunch of components chasing something that is not going to work. Any inputs on if it works ok with 120-130 gr class bullets and/or why it works better with heavier bullets would be appreciated. TIA.

There's tons of load data in the pinned 6.5C AR only thread, but here's my final load/chrono session:

22” 6.5C AR-10 suppressed w/ SDN-6
130gr Berger AR Hybrid
Rem 7.5 SR primer
Virgin Starline brass FLR’d
StaBall 6.5 45.6gr
OAL 2.750”

Labradar series: 190

30rd group

Lo: 2829
Hi: 2916
Avg: 2868
ES: 86
SD: 17.7

 

[RetiredChief]

Question for the group on using StaBall with lighter bullets..... I picked up 2lbs of it when it briefly became available at powder valley but haven't shot any yet as I have been concenting on working up comp loads for my .260 gas gun. I checked on Hogden's site and they don't list any bullets less than 140's. I was hoping to try them with my 130 Bergers. Has anyone had any luck with the lighter bullets w/ Staball, especially in a gas gun? I don't want to waste a bunch of components chasing something that is not going to work. Any inputs on if it works ok with 120-130 gr class bullets and/or why it works better with heavier bullets would be appreciated. TIA.

I re-read your post, Are you looking for data for the 260 REM, or a 6.5 Creedmoor. Reason, you indicated no data on Hodgdon
This is what I found for the 6.5 creedmoor:

		95 gr HDY V-Max	StaBALL 6.5	2.670"	45.5	3,079	45,400 PSI	49.3	3,371
		100 gr BAR TTSX	StaBALL 6.5	2.655	44.1	2,981	46.700 PSI	48.0	3,004
		100 gr Nos BT	StaBALL 6.5	2.670"	45.0	3,015	46,100 PSI	48.8	3,004
		107 gr Hdy A-Max	StaBALL 6.5	2.680"	43.4	2,919	46,200 PSI	47.2	3,004
		120 gr Hdy A-Max	StaBALL 6.5	2.670"	41.7	2,735	45,200 PSI	45.3	3,004
		127 gr Barnes LRX BT	StaBALL 6.5	2.750"	40.3	2,602	44,200 PSI	44.8	2,891
		140 gr Hdy A-Max	StaBALL 6.5	2.820"	40.0	2,535	45,400 PSI	44.0	2,806

If for 260 REM, Your right, Hodgdon does not show any data, Barnes does not show Sta-ball 6.5, BUT does show superformance.
120 gr TTSX 42.7 gr/ Max 47.4 gr: 127 Gr LRX 41.9 gr / Max 46.6 gr: 130 gr 40.8 gr / Max 45.3 gr. Me, I would subtract 1 grain from the starting load for superformance and work up. Staball 6.5 is 129 on the burn chart and superformance is 138. And, For the 6.5 creedmoor Barnes 127 grain LRX shows 1 grain LESS for SB 6.5 vs Superformance. Both are Ball Powders.

 

[ReaperDriver]

Yep, it's for a .260 Rem. Hodgdon does have data for 140s and up, so I decided to use it in my .260 Rem 26" AI-AT Bolt gun instead with heavier bullets, and just use the IMR 4451 in the gas gun with 130's and 123s. I shot a quick series today as an initial workup to see how they did. I shot Berger 144 LR Hybrids with 43.0, 43.5 and 44.0 (book max for the 143 ELD-X) in Lapua brass. All showed promise in accuracy and the 44.0 load was almost dead on Hodgden's speed at 2785. I had zero pressure signs even at the max, so I might explore a bit higher to try to get around 2850 fps. I have an IMR 4451 load in the same lapua brass @ 41.8 and 2850 and it shoots lights out at 1000 to 1400. It holds the vertical almost dead on at the furthest ranges I could go at our club. So hoping an equivilent Staball load can do the same.

 

[Ch@os706]

It's an interesting powder for sure. I've heard from multiple sources that where it shines is in upper-end charges and pressures, aka: it likes pressure.
The listed max for 6creed/110g A-Tips is 42.70g-3047fps(Hodgdon data) and 42.0g -3000fps(Hornady data) for a 24" tube. Mine is 26" and well broken-in/"seasoned" but far from worn out.
I tried a load workup with it yesterday in 6creed with 110g A-Tips, CCI400SRP, new Lapua brass, seating depth was my normal 0.060" off the lands. I disregarded the lower-end starting charges based on the info previously mentioned. I loaded 5 rounds for each .10g from 42.00-42.90 to test. Using a Magnetospeed V3. It was cold, 37F when I started and warmed up to 43F by the time I finished. Humidity 50%, wind was full value 15-18mph right-left (North to South) I think the cold temp kept velocities down. Data obtained below (yes, ES/SD wasn't great, but accuracy was VERY good for several nodes in there. I do trickle to exactly .01g.

*NOTE* This is my OWN DATA and MAY NOT BE SAFE in your rifle(s). Please work up your own loads as per SOP.

42.00: 2881,2799,2891,2874,2912
42.10: 2908,2808,2820,2823,2773
42.20: 2882,2949,2873,2845,2925 (under 1/2moa)
42.30: 2892,2947,2891,2882,2807 (under 1/2moa)
42.40: 2873,2911,2842,2855,2849
42.50: 2722,2959,2668,2860,2857
42.60: 2882,2822,2927,2953*1,2930
42.70: 2947,2961,2855,2891,2953 (under 1/2moa)
42.80: 2877,2951,2936,2914,2905 (under 1/2moa)
42.90: 2948*2,2975*3,2879,2943*4,2946*5 (right at 1/4moa)

*1= semi-heavy bolt lift
*2,*3,*4,*5= only *very* light primer cratering(no heavy bolt lift)

Edit: It is a very dirty powder if using lighter weight bullets or small-rifle primers. I think it really needs a large-rifle or magnum primer to get a cleaner burn and better consistency. It's a pretty slow burning powder.

 

[Mike Casselton]

I does leave a very plastic-like residue behind.
If you clean it within a couple of hours, it comes right out/off. I use Shooter's Choice/Kroil mix.

I agree with the "likes higher pressure."
Most ball powders do.

I had loaded some in the 6-BR and accidentally used my .265 bushing on the second go round.

That seemed to wake everything up. Better velocity (+25fps) slightly better accuracy and it burns cleaner with less residue on the case necks.

It's too bad others have discovered it. It was plentiful and inexpensive. Not anymore...

 

[Ch@os706]

I does leave a very plastic-like residue behind.
If you clean it within a couple of hours, it comes right out/off. I use Shooter's Choice/Kroil mix.

I agree with the "likes higher pressure."
Most ball powders do.

I had loaded some in the 6-BR and accidentally used my .265 bushing on the second go round.

That seemed to wake everything up. Better velocity (+25fps) slightly better accuracy and it burns cleaner with less residue on the case necks.

It's too bad others have discovered it. It was plentiful and inexpensive. Not anymore...

Haha, yeah, everything is higher than giraffe cooch now. I remember the days of $10 a brick for Federal Gold Medal Match and you could buy them by the truckload. Powder was $12-$15 a pound, Matchkings were 10 cents each. Man, those were the good 'ole days. I don't think we'll ever see them again.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Haha, yeah, everything is higher than giraffe cooch now. I remember the days of $10 a brick for Federal Gold Medal Match and you could buy them by the truckload. Powder was $12-$15 a pound, Matchkings were 10 cents each. Man, those were the good 'ole days. I don't think we'll ever see them again.

I just recently tossed out my last empty $13.99 pound of IMR-4350.

I remember when AA-1680 was still surplus and sold for like $6.40/lb.

Still have 16 unopened pounds of Data 2200 and I'm on my last 8 pounder of 2230-C.
Under $65 jug...

 

[SlickRick]

Newbie question here. I am looking to develop a load for 6.5CM with Speer 140g Hot-Cor bullets. This will be a hunting load for mule deer. There is no load data that I can find for this bullet using 6.5 Staball. Can I reference Hodgdon's data for other manufacturers bullets in this weight range and still be safe?

I appreciate the input!

 

[rustyinbend]

My OCW with StaBall in my Tikka 6.5-CM using Berger 140gn LRHT bullets is 43.0 ... gives me about 2660 ft/sec in velocity with SD's in single digits.

 

[DacianMH]

Newbie question here. I am looking to develop a load for 6.5CM with Speer 140g Hot-Cor bullets. This will be a hunting load for mule deer. There is no load data that I can find for this bullet using 6.5 Staball. Can I reference Hodgdon's data for other manufacturers bullets in this weight range and still be safe?

I appreciate the input!

Yes you can but you’ll have to play with seating depth I’m sure you know already.

 

[Doc68]

I used 43.7gr on a 140gr eld m bullet. Seated 15 thousandths off lands. About 2810 out of a 26" barrel.

 

[SlickRick]

Yes you can but you’ll have to play with seating depth I’m sure you know already.

Thank you. Probably should have stated this in the previous post. The rifle is a savage action that I rebarreled with a Proof 24” pre-fit. Using the Hornady OAL gauge, modified case, and bullet comparator with the Speer 140g bullet I am getting 2.274 to ogive. I did not measure COAL.

 

[SlickRick]

My OCW with StaBall in my Tikka 6.5-CM using Berger 140gn LRHT bullets is 43.0 ... gives me about 2660 ft/sec in velocity with SD's in single digits.

What barrel length? I’m using once fired Winchester brass and Winchester LR primers.

 

[SlickRick]

I used 43.7gr on a 140gr eld m bullet. Seated 15 thousandths off lands. About 2810 out of a 26" barrel.

What primer and brass are you using?

 

[Doc68]

Lapua SRP brass and CCI MSRP.