Newbie: How to improve at offhand & unsupported shooting?

[R700P308]

I've recently gotten into NRL22 with a Tikka T1x and Vortex Diamondback 6-24x MOA scope in Talley unitized rings. Combo shoots better than I do at the moment. However, I'm terrible at shooting without a bipod or some other external support. FWIW, I'm rarely over 14x on the scope.

I've read Cleckner's book and have Blanchard's Practical Shooter's Guide on the way. What else can I do to help decrease the "wobble zone" (?) when standing and kneeling? Do I just need to learn to use my M1903 sling, or can training of some kind increase my intrinsic stability? I know a well-used sling will help, but I assume not everyone wobbles this much without one.

Thanks.

Please move to the correct forum if this is wrong. It seemed the best match.

 

[nealm66]

My son was on a rifle team all through high school and placed third in Washington state his final year with a much less expensive gun than his competitors . He’s 26 now and hasn’t competed since. I recently put a 300 prc Mesa lr together with a gen 2 hd 4.5x27. Not sure how much it weighs but it’s pretty heavy. He was checking it out and looking through it at a transformer about 1200 yards away. He held it in competition form and I swear I couldn’t see the slightest wiggle. He shot every night after school and went to the gym solely to strengthen for shooting. I would say being that age and total dedication would be hard to do but if it’s possible, that would give you the results your looking for.

 

[nealm66]

I guess I should add he only weighs about 150 so it really does say something for the form that he uses.

 

[smoothy8500]

I know it's apples vs oranges, but in NRA smallbore and Highpower matches, the unsupported standing and kneeling are a significant portion of the match. Proper bone support instead of relying on muscle strength maintains the position. Constant dry-fire practice hones the skill and tightens that wobble-zone.

Smallbore « Daily Bulletin

Content tagged with Smallbore.

bulletin.accurateshooter.com

 

[gunsnjeeps]

As a High Power shooter I have to say Small Bore shooters usually do very well in High Power. Off hand is timing your arc, trigger control, and shooting of your heels not your toes. Your body supports the rifle more that way not your arms.

 

[PAYDIRT]

Buy a 10 meter air rifle and shoot every chance.

 

[R700P308]

As a High Power shooter I have to say Small Bore shooters usually do very well in High Power. Off hand is timing your arc, trigger control, and shooting of your heels not your toes. Your body supports the rifle more that way not your arms.

This is the kind of thing I'm looking for. Thank you.

My problem is that there's no "arc" right now. It's all over the place lol

Sounds like I just need to practice.

 

[Romeo458]

Do you have a sling? Slings help stabilize you quite a bit and those kinds of shots. If you look on YouTube for some of the older World War II rifle training films, or if you see anything from Appleseed or attend one of their events you will learn a lot about using a sling for different positions.

 

[R700P308]

Do you have a sling? Slings help stabilize you quite a bit and those kinds of shots. If you look on YouTube for some of the older World War II rifle training films, or if you see anything from Appleseed or attend one of their events you will learn a lot about using a sling for different positions.

Yes, I've been using the green cotton GI sling, but I have an M1903 sling I could stick on there.

Been meaning to do an appleseed for awhile. Maybe I'll do one once this virus is gone....

 

[Romeo458]

That GI sling is where its at. Take a look on YouTube for those videos you can practice with dry fire in between.

 

[MK20]

A good modified Bren gun sling is nice.
A Rifles Only sling is nice too.

 

[sleeplz]

3 part series that helped me bigtime. Play with each technique and see what your wobble zone does.

 

[Reverie Ranges]

Want a stable platform? Lift weights and hold parallel to the horizon. Increase weight, repetition, times a day and duration of holds over time. You will start to notice a difference in 3 weeks. Try to increase weight to 2x rifle weight if possible.

 

[R700P308]

3 part series that helped me bigtime. Play with each technique and see what your wobble zone does.

Thank you! Between this and the old USGI videos I should be set.

Want a stable platform? Lift weights and hold parallel to the horizon. Increase weight, repetition, times a day and duration of holds over time. You will start to notice a difference in 3 weeks. Try to increase weight to 2x rifle weight if possible.

I need to lift anyway, so this is further motivation!

 

[nealm66]

One thing my son did a lot was use a shooting tree. He was awfully proud of the fact that he owned the tree against anybody with his inherited, ancient pump action 22

 

[R700P308]

That GI sling is where its at. Take a look on YouTube for those videos you can practice with dry fire in between.

Just realized I'm getting 1903 and 1907 mixed up on these slings. No idea which is which (googling didn't help) but it's the two-piece thing you see on Garands. Loop tightens around the upper arm.

 

[smoothy8500]

... it's the two-piece thing you see on Garands. Loop tightens around the upper arm.

Canvas is known as "web sling", the leather service rifle sling is a 1907. Another option is a cuff type sling which is more common in smallbore:

Creedmoor Sports - Precision Reloading and Shooting Gear

Shoot and Reload with the Pros! Creedmoor Sports has served the Precision Shooting Community for over 40 years in Centerfire, Small-bore, Air Rifle and Pistol Disciplines.

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ISSF Slings | Champion's Choice

It is much easier and quicker than the 1907 Service Rifle sling. It tightens under tension and loosens when tension is relieved allowing the removal from your arm. Length is adjusted by a buckle, like your belt.

 

[R700P308]

That sounds like a niece sling.

I'm gonna stick to the 1907 for now and when/if I get proficient, might upgrade to that.

Did some dry-fire with it this evening and I'm starting to see the benefits. At this point my setup is so wonky and I have so many questions it's pretty crazy.

 

[TheBigCountry]

Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. We have (had) something in the Corps called grass week, where all we did for a solid week was practice dry fire in the positions (sitting, standing, kneeling, prone) to not only get used to the firing positions, but reinforce the fundamentals- sight alignment/sight picture, slow steady squeeze, natural respiratory pause, etc.

Heres an article too that may help you. You can practice it with dry fire then move onto live fire:

Rifle Training: The Rimfire Regimen for Becoming a Marksman

How a .22 can make you a good shot with the big guns.

www.range365.com

 

[sleeplz]

I'd add to the dry fire by doing ball and dummy drill. For example, have a 10 round mag and throw in 3 dummy rounds with the live. Don't cheat and look to see which rounds are located where in the mag. With your shots, you want to be able to pinpoint the moment you break that shot on the large plate while not flinching. You'll see that your body will naturally want to flinch and you'll be able to identify tons of deficiencies.

I still do this drill to this day and I catch myself still fucking up. But it has improved my shooting tremendously and I believe doing the boring work when no one is around will pay dividends more than anything else.

 

[littlepod]

http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/mattemmonstips.pdf

 

[smoothy8500]

Thanks littlepod, that's the page I tried to link.

 

[UTB]

I shoot at a Lightweight Sporting Rifle range, 25m standing NO sling. Some of the guys are very very good. They got results from the standing positions shown in all the books, one thing they had in common was they had a good proportion between upper and lower body, I found the elbow on hip stance a one way ticket to the back doctor.
My proportion doesn't suit that style, i have long body / short legs. one unexpected piece of advice I received that seemed to help me was using the pigeon-toed foot position from Wing Chun Kung Fu, makes for a stable platform.
hope this helps.

 

[cueball9]

I was lucky in that when I started in High Power I had lots of great shooters around me who were willing to give me pointers. One day I sat next to Norma Zinsmaster and she was the nicest person ever. I also had snipers in my rotation who shared some pointers. I struggled in Offhand and it was the 6/7 point difference I needed for Expert classification. Using your skeleton is one of the best things you can learn. The reason why is because in order to be good you need consistency. Every shot the same. If you are holding the rifle with your muscles,you get fatigued. Pull your arms in and try to get your elbows to touch your body. Combine this with your stance. Your stance needs to be your natural aim point. You can do this at home. Pick a target. Close your eyes and hold the rifle like you are going to take the shot. Now open your eyes. If you are not on target, MOVE YOUR FEET! Not your arms. Lastly, as mentioned before, buy an air gun and practice practice practice. Crossman makes a very popular single shot that is similar to the 10 meter rifles used in competition. I also recommend looking at some David Tubb videos. He has great advice for how to develope your move to get on target. NO ONE can HOLD on target. It’s a move and is unique to every shooter. So now I’ve paid it forward. Thanks again to all the NorCal High Power shooters who shared their wisdom with me.

 

[R700P308]

Thanks. Yeah, I tried the elbow on hip method and while I'm still trying it since this stuff isn't meant to be comfortable, it is highly awkward. I have to work to get my elbow jammed down there.

I found the hasty sling technique in the Army M1 Garand videos far more usable.

 

[smoothy8500]

I have to work to get my elbow jammed down there.

Ummm, you're doing it wrong ...The elbow is supported alongside your chest, not down by your hip. The diagram shows the balance points. The rear foot placement adjusts elevation/left to right for NPA. The tripod is just to rest rifle between shots of the 20 round string.

https://www.issf-sports.org/iteam_data/public/issf/images/userimages/academy/body1.png

 

[R700P308]

Ah, okay. I'll take another look at that, thanks.

I also found out that low sitting was not designed for someone with a gut.

 

[nealm66]

I’ll have to get a pic of my sons stance. I don’t think his elbow is resting anywhere but I could be wrong. He was hitting a 6” gong at 200 yards standing with his 22,iron sights last weekend. When I sounded astonished he shrugged it off and said he’s shot the rifle a lot and made it sound like that shouldn’t be a thing .

 

[308pirate]

Thanks. Yeah, I tried the elbow on hip method and while I'm still trying it since this stuff isn't meant to be comfortable, it is highly awkward. I have to work to get my elbow jammed down there.

Work on your flexibility. It's good for you anyway

 

[308pirate]

I’ll have to get a pic of my sons stance. I don’t think his elbow is resting anywhere but I could be wrong. He was hitting a 6” gong at 200 yards standing with his 22,iron sights last weekend.

That's something any proficient highpower rifle competitor can do.

It's not talent. It's building skill using correct practice.

 

[nealm66]

That's something any proficient highpower rifle competitor can do.

It's not talent. It's building skill using correct practice.

That was kinda his attitude. I felt like putting my gun away lol

 

[ScottDWallace]

In the silhouette world, you strive to get your elbow on top of the hip bone. However, everybody is built a little differently and some people can only get their tricep hard against the rib cage. It take a LOT more muscle than elbow on hip, but with practice and conditioning, you can shoot just as well.

6" @200 is a little sporty for silhouette guys, but I bet they could go 6/10 on a light wind day. Put in the work and you will get there faster than you think. And if you have a silhouette club near you, I highly recommend it. Most humbling shooting I have ever done. My best score was 32/40, which felt like a miracle to even get that. Never earned a 10 pin. Lot's of 9's though! That's proof that my biggest obstacle has, and will always be, me!

 

[nealm66]

So , I asked my son about resting his elbow and he said with the competition guns the y had blocks that you attached to the stock that allowed that.The gun he shoots now is a cz 542. He doesn’t rest his elbow , he forms a similar position he calls a J. His front hand isn’t in a grip position, looked more like a claw. He says he rolls the rifle ( best I can describe) keeping his head at normal height and brings rifle up not head down. He cants forward slightly also. Not sure if any of that helps but that’s what I gathered from his description and he was showing me without a rifle in his hands. He doesn’t compete or even shoot a lot anymore but from all the years he dedicated to the sport it’s like embedded, really something to watch. Not sure when we’ll get a chance to shoot together again to take a pic but not sure how well that would gather it wouldn’t show him rolling the rifle

 

[R700P308]

Well...I spent a bunch of time with my M1 + 1907 sling watching the old US Army training films (used the M1 so I was using the same thing they were...eliminate variables when learning).

I finally "get" slings! No, I'm nowhere near good at it, but following the directions, pausing the video, and playing with the loop lengths, I finally felt that "locked in" feeling people talk about. Amazingly steady compared to what I'd been doing. I was having trouble theoretically understanding what the sling was supposed to do...it made no sense to me to attach something to the same arm you're using to hold the rifle in order to steady the rifle. Then when the instructor said your hand should be completely relaxed, it "clicked" and I realized you're creating a triangle with your arm and the sling, and the sling tension combined with the downward weight of the rifle and your natural muscle tension in the position make you steady.

Feels good to finally understand, conceptually, what's going on here. Probably would have gotten it faster with a coach, but oh well.

Now I need to do some stretches, lose this gut, and practice...practice...practice.

I did add Tubb's video series to my wishlist. Not sure I'll get it just yet since I have a ways to go with free stuff on Youtube and its unlikely I end up doing the kind of shooting he's doing, but it does look interesting.