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NEWER SUBJECT: Can cold bore zero errors be ...

Triggerfifty

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 1, 2005
199
0
JBed out? I'll be posting some pics of targets showing that (here comes some controversy), a gun's CBZ errors can be eliminated by re-conditioning the barrel with JB. This is sure to start some discussion!!

Maybe not the best place for ELR discussion, but when you're talking about 2000 yard cold bore shots, the police scenario becomes less of an issue.

More to follow...
 
Re: NEWER SUBJECT: Can cold bore zero errors be ...

Just in time for our most recent membership lesson. Clean cold bore or just a cold bore?
 
Re: NEWER SUBJECT: Can cold bore zero errors be ...

I have never been able to get the Cold Bore difference out by just using JB. I have figured out that some Kroil after cleaning will reduce the POI change by 50% but have still not figured out how to get rid of it.
 
Re: NEWER SUBJECT: Can cold bore zero errors be ...

I wonder how moly-coated bullets would affect cold bore, clean or unclean.
 
Re: NEWER SUBJECT: Can cold bore zero errors be ...

Suggest adding graphite to the after-cleaning Kroil.
 
Re: NEWER SUBJECT: Can cold bore zero errors be .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GCMxVeGeTa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wonder how moly-coated bullets would affect cold bore, clean or unclean. </div></div>


Well the moly is not going to have anything to do with the POI shift caused by two things. One if the bore is clean with no fouling then the fouling will cause a shift. Two the temp of the bore after a few shoots is going to heat up and also shift the POI due to velocity changes.


Greg thats something i never thought of, not sure where thats going could you explain you thoughts a little bit more?
 
Re: NEWER SUBJECT: Can cold bore zero errors be ...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GCMxVeGeTa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wonder how moly-coated bullets would affect cold bore, clean or unclean.</div></div>


some years back ....it was accurate rifle , or tactical rifle....the publication did an article on what the RCMP did with their bolt-guns and moly....to assure surgical cold bore.....


it was clean , shoot 12 and then put up the rifle.

i don't think the guys with all the trophies and book publishing deals shoot a clean gun for score......my .02
 
Re: NEWER SUBJECT: Can cold bore zero errors be .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GCMxVeGeTa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wonder how moly-coated bullets would affect cold bore, clean or unclean.</div></div>


some years back ....it was accurate rifle , or tactical rifle....the publication did an article on what the RCMP did with their bolt-guns and moly....to assure surgical cold bore.....


it was clean , shoot 12 and then put up the rifle.

i don't think the guys with all the trophies and book publishing deals shoot a clean gun for score......my .02 </div></div>

Thats a good point but i still dont know how you can get around the heat issue. As you put the first 3 rounds through the gun the barrel will heat up and change the POI. Atleast thats what I have noticed shooting BR for a while now.
 
Re: NEWER SUBJECT: Can cold bore zero errors be .

i don't think the guys with all the trophies and book publishing deals shoot a clean gun for score......my .02

a guy I shoot with just about every month, don geraci, is a 4 time national champion in benchrest comps and he cleans his barrels every 22 rounds and swears by it
 
Re: NEWER SUBJECT: Can cold bore zero errors be .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Suggest adding graphite to the after-cleaning Kroil.</div></div>

Are you using alcohol as a carrier to get the graphite in the bore??
 
Re: NEWER SUBJECT: Can cold bore zero errors be .

What kind of an internval is 22 rounds between cleanings? If you are saying that he cleans it between relays in F-class matches, his cold bore isn't for score anyway.
 
Re: NEWER SUBJECT: Can cold bore zero errors be .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: s.i.t.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i don't think the guys with all the trophies and book publishing deals shoot a clean gun for score......my .02

a guy I shoot with just about every month, don geraci, is a 4 time national champion in benchrest comps and he cleans his barrels every 22 rounds and swears by it </div></div>

Yup it is a good practice when doing comps, but all depends on your specific gun. Sometimes my guns shoot better when i run them 40-80 rounds between cleaning.
 
Re: NEWER SUBJECT: Can cold bore zero errors be .

Have used alcohol. But latest mix is Hoppe's oil, Acetone, and Graphite. Acetone evaporates, leaving a light oil coating that helps bind the graphite.

I tried moly, and then realized that dry bore lubes have been a regular part of shooting for well over a century. The dry lube is graphite, it is present as a propellant granule coating/static charge deterrent, and has been so since around the time smokeless powder was introduced. Its primary purpose is as an electrical conductor, equalizing static charges within the mass of propellant before it can build up to cause a static discharge that ignites the mass. Thank graphite for the convenient fact that propellants may be safely shipped via conventional commercial transportation. The 'carbon fouling' most of us cuss at is primarily composed of unburnt graphite residues from those coatings. It coats the bore with a layer of dry lubricant, and is one of the reasons velocities alter after the first few shots out of a CCB.

Treating bullets and bores with moly is rather a bit redundant, IMHO, and preconditioning a bore with graphite simply parallels the process many moly shooters often use.

There is a lot of knowledge being presented on this site that CCB POI deviations are more the result of a cold shooter than of a cold, clean bore. I think they are absolutely true, as long as one understands that cold, dry bores <span style="font-style: italic">do</span> affect the velocity of the initial shot(s). Whether these velocity variances consequently cause a different POI is rather more a factor of the load's relationship with the barrel's accuracy node; and whether or not the two velocities (cold/dry, warm/fouled) inhabit the barrel's accuracy node velocity range.

If they do, it's all about the shooter. If they don't, there is an additional factor.

In this case, it may pay to alter the powder charge slightly up or down, to see if the cold, clean and warm, fouled velocities can be brought into line with a (more) common POI

I had, at one time, considered that a barrel tuner could be used to alter harmonics to aid in this, but soon discovered the tuners caused more problems than they solved. Once tuned, they can induce amazing accuracy; but once conditions like ambient temperature alter, they need to be retuned.

The net effect is a rifle that goes out of tune every time the weather changes significantly. Better to live within a larger, more stable accuracy bubble, than to chase a tiny one incessantly. This is why BR shooters are always tweaking their loads throughout the duration of the match; they are chasing that tiny bubble. With time, they become adept at matching tweaks to temperature charges. Logically, a tuner could be used the same way, but I found it just a case of too too many shots and too much time; and all I was accomplishing was to substitute constant tuner manipulation for a one-time load development cycle.

Greg
 
Re: NEWER SUBJECT: Can cold bore zero errors be .

Napa Lock-Ease, is graphite in a carrier, mostly evaporates off. Maybe like what Greg is using?
 
Re: NEWER SUBJECT: Can cold bore zero errors be .

Very much. I just like the Hoppe's thicker resulting viscosity. I use the acetone to produce a thin layer of moderately viscous lube, not a thin layer of thin lube.

I learned the thinner/lube trick when working at IBM, where we used it with a heavy grease to leave a very thin layer of the grease within the innards of complex electric typewriter mechanism subassemblies. As long as you don't overload and bog down the assemblies, the advantage of grease is its tenacity.

I may end up doing something of this sort with the bores and graphite, to establish a longer term bore protectant that doesn't need to be removed before shooting; and yes, I recognize that this is precisely what moly does.

I just don't like playing with complexities involved in recruiting a number of lubricants to the party; and I much prefer a lubricant which can be stripped out more easily for bore inspection and wear determination, and can still be removed and restored relatively simply at will. The entire panoply of cleaning products has been evolving for well over a century to accomplish this very task.

Greg
 
Re: NEWER SUBJECT: Can cold bore zero errors be .

Sentry Solutions in NH makes an alcohol(?) based bore conditioner to be used after cleaning. If I'm not mistaken, it was recommended by Rock Creek for use during break-in. They don't anymore because they've changed their lapping process and say it isn't necessary. SS also make dry lubricants for use in sub-zero conditions.
With respect to CBZ - how much of a factor is the mechanical component vs. the mental aspect?