anyone use this ? have experience with it ?
Good, bad or otherwise... opinions ??
http://www.doityourselfdocuments.com/trusts/kits/nra.htm
Good, bad or otherwise... opinions ??
http://www.doityourselfdocuments.com/trusts/kits/nra.htm
Suppressors NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
- Thread starter Sendero_Man
- Start date
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
This has been debated and hashed out so many times...
You're best bet to be safe and secure is to have a lawyer well versed in NFA items draft your trust for you. The added peace of mind for you and your inheritors is worth the cost.
I used Apple Law Firm in Florida, they transferred the documents to a KY based lawyer for her review under state regs for trusts. I suggest you do the same.
This has been debated and hashed out so many times...
You're best bet to be safe and secure is to have a lawyer well versed in NFA items draft your trust for you. The added peace of mind for you and your inheritors is worth the cost.
I used Apple Law Firm in Florida, they transferred the documents to a KY based lawyer for her review under state regs for trusts. I suggest you do the same.
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This has been debated and hashed out so many times...
You're best bet to be safe and secure is to have a lawyer well versed in NFA items draft your trust for you. The added peace of mind for you and your inheritors is worth the cost.
I used Apple Law Firm in Florida, they transferred the documents to a KY based lawyer for her review under state regs for trusts. I suggest you do the same. </div></div>
+1000! The ATF will look at the trust itself. Legalzoom is not an ATF Trust service either. Best to find a lawyer who's done these as well, some will tell you they can, but it is a very specific document.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This has been debated and hashed out so many times...
You're best bet to be safe and secure is to have a lawyer well versed in NFA items draft your trust for you. The added peace of mind for you and your inheritors is worth the cost.
I used Apple Law Firm in Florida, they transferred the documents to a KY based lawyer for her review under state regs for trusts. I suggest you do the same. </div></div>
+1000! The ATF will look at the trust itself. Legalzoom is not an ATF Trust service either. Best to find a lawyer who's done these as well, some will tell you they can, but it is a very specific document.
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
yep, yep
before i did mine, i read the old posts about it.
i had a lawyer do mine as well.
yep, yep
before i did mine, i read the old posts about it.
i had a lawyer do mine as well.
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
One thing that is nice about this "do it yourself" document is that it seems like it is specifically oriented to NFA Trusts (unlike other do-it-yourself Living Trust products such as WillMaker or other downloadable forms).
As it seems to be a common approach to have an out-of-state lawyer who is familiar with NFA draft the trust, then have an in-state lawyer review for applicability to local trust law, perhaps this do-it-yourself approach can save you some money by using the form to draft your NFA trust, then only pay one lawyer for your in-state review. Just a guess on my part.
One thing that is nice about this "do it yourself" document is that it seems like it is specifically oriented to NFA Trusts (unlike other do-it-yourself Living Trust products such as WillMaker or other downloadable forms).
As it seems to be a common approach to have an out-of-state lawyer who is familiar with NFA draft the trust, then have an in-state lawyer review for applicability to local trust law, perhaps this do-it-yourself approach can save you some money by using the form to draft your NFA trust, then only pay one lawyer for your in-state review. Just a guess on my part.
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RacingMars</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing that is nice about this "do it yourself" document is that it seems like it is specifically oriented to NFA Trusts (unlike other do-it-yourself Living Trust products such as WillMaker or other downloadable forms).
As it seems to be a common approach to have an out-of-state lawyer who is familiar with NFA draft the trust, then have an in-state lawyer review for applicability to local trust law, perhaps this do-it-yourself approach can save you some money by using the form to draft your NFA trust, then only pay one lawyer for your in-state review. Just a guess on my part. </div></div>
Do you want to trust that "do it yourself" document vs. 10 years in federal prison for one of multiple violations they could get you on? It's just not worth the risk.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RacingMars</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing that is nice about this "do it yourself" document is that it seems like it is specifically oriented to NFA Trusts (unlike other do-it-yourself Living Trust products such as WillMaker or other downloadable forms).
As it seems to be a common approach to have an out-of-state lawyer who is familiar with NFA draft the trust, then have an in-state lawyer review for applicability to local trust law, perhaps this do-it-yourself approach can save you some money by using the form to draft your NFA trust, then only pay one lawyer for your in-state review. Just a guess on my part. </div></div>
Do you want to trust that "do it yourself" document vs. 10 years in federal prison for one of multiple violations they could get you on? It's just not worth the risk.
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
Apple did mine too and I'm very pleased. Well worth the money to have the peace of mind. Their trust also comes with very specific instructions on how to use the trust for NFA items.
Apple did mine too and I'm very pleased. Well worth the money to have the peace of mind. Their trust also comes with very specific instructions on how to use the trust for NFA items.
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RacingMars</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing that is nice about this "do it yourself" document is that it seems like it is specifically oriented to NFA Trusts (unlike other do-it-yourself Living Trust products such as WillMaker or other downloadable forms).
As it seems to be a common approach to have an out-of-state lawyer who is familiar with NFA draft the trust, then have an in-state lawyer review for applicability to local trust law, perhaps this do-it-yourself approach can save you some money by using the form to draft your NFA trust, then only pay one lawyer for your in-state review. Just a guess on my part. </div></div>
Do you want to trust that "do it yourself" document vs. 10 years in federal prison for one of multiple violations they could get you on? It's just not worth the risk. </div></div>
How can you get 10 years over a trust they approved?
A friend of mine provided me his trust to use as a template. I compared it to other online samples I have reviewed and it was basically just a Quicken trust which was given to him by his friend and Class III dealer.....one of the biggest machine gun dealers and private collectors in the country. Rather than spend 2 days typing out the whole thing I just bought a copy of Quicken and used his trust as a guide. So far I have gotten back two suppressors approved on the trust by Agent Al Lamberger.
So if the agents reviews it and approves it and I havent provided any false or misleading info....how can I catch a 10 year prison sentence?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RacingMars</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing that is nice about this "do it yourself" document is that it seems like it is specifically oriented to NFA Trusts (unlike other do-it-yourself Living Trust products such as WillMaker or other downloadable forms).
As it seems to be a common approach to have an out-of-state lawyer who is familiar with NFA draft the trust, then have an in-state lawyer review for applicability to local trust law, perhaps this do-it-yourself approach can save you some money by using the form to draft your NFA trust, then only pay one lawyer for your in-state review. Just a guess on my part. </div></div>
Do you want to trust that "do it yourself" document vs. 10 years in federal prison for one of multiple violations they could get you on? It's just not worth the risk. </div></div>
How can you get 10 years over a trust they approved?
A friend of mine provided me his trust to use as a template. I compared it to other online samples I have reviewed and it was basically just a Quicken trust which was given to him by his friend and Class III dealer.....one of the biggest machine gun dealers and private collectors in the country. Rather than spend 2 days typing out the whole thing I just bought a copy of Quicken and used his trust as a guide. So far I have gotten back two suppressors approved on the trust by Agent Al Lamberger.
So if the agents reviews it and approves it and I havent provided any false or misleading info....how can I catch a 10 year prison sentence?
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
You must silence your common sense talk lofty......you are undermining the koolaid drinking......
You must silence your common sense talk lofty......you are undermining the koolaid drinking......
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
LOL.......I make no bones about it, Im not a fan of attorneys. However, if Im doing something wrong, I surely would like to know about it.
What could I have possibly done thats criminal?
I figure if Quicken is good enough for a guy that has one of the largest and most expensive class III collections in the world, its good enough for me.
LOL.......I make no bones about it, Im not a fan of attorneys. However, if Im doing something wrong, I surely would like to know about it.
What could I have possibly done thats criminal?
I figure if Quicken is good enough for a guy that has one of the largest and most expensive class III collections in the world, its good enough for me.
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RacingMars</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing that is nice about this "do it yourself" document is that it seems like it is specifically oriented to NFA Trusts (unlike other do-it-yourself Living Trust products such as WillMaker or other downloadable forms).
As it seems to be a common approach to have an out-of-state lawyer who is familiar with NFA draft the trust, then have an in-state lawyer review for applicability to local trust law, perhaps this do-it-yourself approach can save you some money by using the form to draft your NFA trust, then only pay one lawyer for your in-state review. Just a guess on my part. </div></div>
Do you want to trust that "do it yourself" document vs. 10 years in federal prison for one of multiple violations they could get you on? It's just not worth the risk. </div></div>
How can you get 10 years over a trust they approved?
A friend of mine provided me his trust to use as a template. I compared it to other online samples I have reviewed and it was basically just a Quicken trust which was given to him by his friend and Class III dealer.....one of the biggest machine gun dealers and private collectors in the country. Rather than spend 2 days typing out the whole thing I just bought a copy of Quicken and used his trust as a guide. So far I have gotten back two suppressors approved on the trust by Agent Al Lamberger.
So if the agents reviews it and approves it and I havent provided any false or misleading info....how can I catch a 10 year prison sentence? </div></div>
Quicken is not checked against your state laws. If the ATF/NFA tried to get specific at any point the trust would be deemed invalid and you would be in the possession of Class 3 items without proper registration. There are to many ways then could come after it. Will they ever do that? Who knows.... do I feel better that I spent the money on the attorney's trust? Hell yes!
The quicken version is also NOT NFA firearms specific.... it's to broad. You need something that is correctly worded. It also is not specific in the passing down of the items once you are dead and gone.
I started out with Quicken.... then I felt it was not concrete enough for me.
http://nevadaguntrustattorney.com/2011/09/16/gun-trust-issues-using-quicken-willmaker/
http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2009/05/batfe-seeks-to-seize-nfa-firea.html
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RacingMars</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing that is nice about this "do it yourself" document is that it seems like it is specifically oriented to NFA Trusts (unlike other do-it-yourself Living Trust products such as WillMaker or other downloadable forms).
As it seems to be a common approach to have an out-of-state lawyer who is familiar with NFA draft the trust, then have an in-state lawyer review for applicability to local trust law, perhaps this do-it-yourself approach can save you some money by using the form to draft your NFA trust, then only pay one lawyer for your in-state review. Just a guess on my part. </div></div>
Do you want to trust that "do it yourself" document vs. 10 years in federal prison for one of multiple violations they could get you on? It's just not worth the risk. </div></div>
How can you get 10 years over a trust they approved?
A friend of mine provided me his trust to use as a template. I compared it to other online samples I have reviewed and it was basically just a Quicken trust which was given to him by his friend and Class III dealer.....one of the biggest machine gun dealers and private collectors in the country. Rather than spend 2 days typing out the whole thing I just bought a copy of Quicken and used his trust as a guide. So far I have gotten back two suppressors approved on the trust by Agent Al Lamberger.
So if the agents reviews it and approves it and I havent provided any false or misleading info....how can I catch a 10 year prison sentence? </div></div>
Quicken is not checked against your state laws. If the ATF/NFA tried to get specific at any point the trust would be deemed invalid and you would be in the possession of Class 3 items without proper registration. There are to many ways then could come after it. Will they ever do that? Who knows.... do I feel better that I spent the money on the attorney's trust? Hell yes!
The quicken version is also NOT NFA firearms specific.... it's to broad. You need something that is correctly worded. It also is not specific in the passing down of the items once you are dead and gone.
I started out with Quicken.... then I felt it was not concrete enough for me.
http://nevadaguntrustattorney.com/2011/09/16/gun-trust-issues-using-quicken-willmaker/
http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2009/05/batfe-seeks-to-seize-nfa-firea.html
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
What state laws are you refering to? Or what kind of examples of a scenario should I be concerned about?
My state allows approved class III items....approved by BATFE I mean. So as long as ATF approved my trust and issued me the stamp, what laws specifically would I be violating?
When you say its too broad......in what way?
What is some of the language in a Quicken trust that would be improper per NFA standards. What issues does an NFA tailored trust narrow down VS a Quicken version?
Edit: OK....I read your links. I see what you are saying.....I dont think that attorney has ever read a Quicken trust. 90% of the issues he addresses in the article are addressed by Quicken.
Thats more legal mumbo jumbo scare tactics designed to seperate you from your money.....something attorneys are very fond of and very adept at doing.
What state laws are you refering to? Or what kind of examples of a scenario should I be concerned about?
My state allows approved class III items....approved by BATFE I mean. So as long as ATF approved my trust and issued me the stamp, what laws specifically would I be violating?
When you say its too broad......in what way?
What is some of the language in a Quicken trust that would be improper per NFA standards. What issues does an NFA tailored trust narrow down VS a Quicken version?
Edit: OK....I read your links. I see what you are saying.....I dont think that attorney has ever read a Quicken trust. 90% of the issues he addresses in the article are addressed by Quicken.
Thats more legal mumbo jumbo scare tactics designed to seperate you from your money.....something attorneys are very fond of and very adept at doing.
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What state laws are you refering to? Or what kind of examples of a scenario should I be concerned about?
My state allows approved class III items....approved by BATFE I mean. So as long as ATF approved my trust and issued me the stamp, what laws specifically would I be violating?
When you say its too broad......in what way?
What is some of the language in a Quicken trust that would be improper per NFA standards. What issues does an NFA tailored trust narrow down VS a Quicken version? </div></div>
Valid question.... They can say it's good and then comeback 5 years later and say.... Nope that is not a legal trust, we changed things. Whose to say a gun trust won't end up in the same situation?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What state laws are you refering to? Or what kind of examples of a scenario should I be concerned about?
My state allows approved class III items....approved by BATFE I mean. So as long as ATF approved my trust and issued me the stamp, what laws specifically would I be violating?
When you say its too broad......in what way?
What is some of the language in a Quicken trust that would be improper per NFA standards. What issues does an NFA tailored trust narrow down VS a Quicken version? </div></div>
Valid question.... They can say it's good and then comeback 5 years later and say.... Nope that is not a legal trust, we changed things. Whose to say a gun trust won't end up in the same situation?
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: K_4c</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What state laws are you refering to? Or what kind of examples of a scenario should I be concerned about?
My state allows approved class III items....approved by BATFE I mean. So as long as ATF approved my trust and issued me the stamp, what laws specifically would I be violating?
When you say its too broad......in what way?
What is some of the language in a Quicken trust that would be improper per NFA standards. What issues does an NFA tailored trust narrow down VS a Quicken version? </div></div>
Valid question.... They can say it's good and then comeback 5 years later and say.... Nope that is not a legal trust, we changed things. Whose to say a gun trust won't end up in the same situation? </div></div>
That is exactly the point.
The BATFE is notorious for issueing rulings and findings and just deciding overnight that someone may or may not be a criminal.
An attoney written trust is no more immune from that than a Quicken trust.
Its unfortunate that we allow such things as American citizens, but if the ATF wants to make you a criminal, they will.
ATF: Making law abiding citizens into criminals since 1886.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: K_4c</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What state laws are you refering to? Or what kind of examples of a scenario should I be concerned about?
My state allows approved class III items....approved by BATFE I mean. So as long as ATF approved my trust and issued me the stamp, what laws specifically would I be violating?
When you say its too broad......in what way?
What is some of the language in a Quicken trust that would be improper per NFA standards. What issues does an NFA tailored trust narrow down VS a Quicken version? </div></div>
Valid question.... They can say it's good and then comeback 5 years later and say.... Nope that is not a legal trust, we changed things. Whose to say a gun trust won't end up in the same situation? </div></div>
That is exactly the point.
The BATFE is notorious for issueing rulings and findings and just deciding overnight that someone may or may not be a criminal.
An attoney written trust is no more immune from that than a Quicken trust.
Its unfortunate that we allow such things as American citizens, but if the ATF wants to make you a criminal, they will.
ATF: Making law abiding citizens into criminals since 1886.
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
my original question was on the do it yourself for a reason... I can't find a lawyer to do a NFA trust in Wyoming. I have even called the Wyoming State Bar for a referral and have had none.
Any one have any other ideas on how to find a lawyer in Wyoming, that knows our laws to do a NFA / gun trust ?
And NO, I am not gonna use a third party out of state. ie guntrustlawyer.com
my original question was on the do it yourself for a reason... I can't find a lawyer to do a NFA trust in Wyoming. I have even called the Wyoming State Bar for a referral and have had none.
Any one have any other ideas on how to find a lawyer in Wyoming, that knows our laws to do a NFA / gun trust ?
And NO, I am not gonna use a third party out of state. ie guntrustlawyer.com
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sendero_man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">my original question was on the do it yourself for a reason... I can't find a lawyer to do a NFA trust in Wyoming. I have even called the Wyoming State Bar for a referral and have had none.
Any one have any other ideas on how to find a lawyer in Wyoming, that knows our laws to do a NFA / gun trust ?
</div></div>
Yeah because the gun trust lawyers down in Florida know your state laws... Haha... You already did the dirt work and asked practicing lawyers and even they had no answer. I'd really try to reach out to other class 3 owners(in your state) and see what route they went. Or perhaps, touch bases with an NFA rep for the most sound answer.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sendero_man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">my original question was on the do it yourself for a reason... I can't find a lawyer to do a NFA trust in Wyoming. I have even called the Wyoming State Bar for a referral and have had none.
Any one have any other ideas on how to find a lawyer in Wyoming, that knows our laws to do a NFA / gun trust ?
</div></div>
Yeah because the gun trust lawyers down in Florida know your state laws... Haha... You already did the dirt work and asked practicing lawyers and even they had no answer. I'd really try to reach out to other class 3 owners(in your state) and see what route they went. Or perhaps, touch bases with an NFA rep for the most sound answer.
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Quicken is not checked against your state laws. If the ATF/NFA tried to get specific at any point the trust would be deemed invalid and you would be in the possession of Class 3 items without proper registration. There are to many ways then could come after it. Will they ever do that? Who knows.... do I feel better that I spent the money on the attorney's trust? Hell yes!
The quicken version is also NOT NFA firearms specific.... it's to broad. You need something that is correctly worded. It also is not specific in the passing down of the items once you are dead and gone.
I started out with Quicken.... then I felt it was not concrete enough for me.
</div></div>
I paid $450 to an attorney who specializes in NFA trusts. I have family members on the trust, and I may move in the future, in-state and possibly out-of-state. I can call my lawyer at any time, and have him amend the trust at any time to fit my needs. If I have kids to add, or parents to take off, I can go to my lawyer.
Can quicken do that? Maybe I should word it differently: Do you trust quicken to do that?
I sleep well at night, but if quicken let's you sleep at night, more power to ya.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Quicken is not checked against your state laws. If the ATF/NFA tried to get specific at any point the trust would be deemed invalid and you would be in the possession of Class 3 items without proper registration. There are to many ways then could come after it. Will they ever do that? Who knows.... do I feel better that I spent the money on the attorney's trust? Hell yes!
The quicken version is also NOT NFA firearms specific.... it's to broad. You need something that is correctly worded. It also is not specific in the passing down of the items once you are dead and gone.
I started out with Quicken.... then I felt it was not concrete enough for me.
</div></div>
I paid $450 to an attorney who specializes in NFA trusts. I have family members on the trust, and I may move in the future, in-state and possibly out-of-state. I can call my lawyer at any time, and have him amend the trust at any time to fit my needs. If I have kids to add, or parents to take off, I can go to my lawyer.
Can quicken do that? Maybe I should word it differently: Do you trust quicken to do that?
I sleep well at night, but if quicken let's you sleep at night, more power to ya.
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: K_4c</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sendero_man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">my original question was on the do it yourself for a reason... I can't find a lawyer to do a NFA trust in Wyoming. I have even called the Wyoming State Bar for a referral and have had none.
Any one have any other ideas on how to find a lawyer in Wyoming, that knows our laws to do a NFA / gun trust ?
</div></div>
Yeah because the gun trust lawyers down in Florida know your state laws... Haha... You already did the dirt work and asked practicing lawyers and even they had no answer. I'd really try to reach out to other class 3 owners(in your state) and see what route they went. Or perhaps, touch bases with an NFA rep for the most sound answer. </div></div>
everyone in WY that I know has one, did not do a trust. just had SO sign off
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: K_4c</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sendero_man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">my original question was on the do it yourself for a reason... I can't find a lawyer to do a NFA trust in Wyoming. I have even called the Wyoming State Bar for a referral and have had none.
Any one have any other ideas on how to find a lawyer in Wyoming, that knows our laws to do a NFA / gun trust ?
</div></div>
Yeah because the gun trust lawyers down in Florida know your state laws... Haha... You already did the dirt work and asked practicing lawyers and even they had no answer. I'd really try to reach out to other class 3 owners(in your state) and see what route they went. Or perhaps, touch bases with an NFA rep for the most sound answer. </div></div>
everyone in WY that I know has one, did not do a trust. just had SO sign off
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kimberseries1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Quicken is not checked against your state laws. If the ATF/NFA tried to get specific at any point the trust would be deemed invalid and you would be in the possession of Class 3 items without proper registration. There are to many ways then could come after it. Will they ever do that? Who knows.... do I feel better that I spent the money on the attorney's trust? Hell yes!
The quicken version is also NOT NFA firearms specific.... it's to broad. You need something that is correctly worded. It also is not specific in the passing down of the items once you are dead and gone.
I started out with Quicken.... then I felt it was not concrete enough for me.
</div></div>
I paid $450 to an attorney who specializes in NFA trusts. I have family members on the trust, and I may move in the future, in-state and possibly out-of-state. I can call my lawyer at any time, and have him amend the trust at any time to fit my needs. If I have kids to add, or parents to take off, I can go to my lawyer.
Can quicken do that? Maybe I should word it differently: Do you trust quicken to do that?
I sleep well at night, but if quicken let's you sleep at night, more power to ya. </div></div>
Good point kimber....
Each state has different laws as what can define a trust. They all have different parameters. But the ATF/NFA is checking the trusts in accordance with state laws regarding trusts. They had a major backup about 2 years ago because they were having all the trusts laws checked. That's about the time I researched and made the decision to spend the money on the lawyer written trust.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kimberseries1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Quicken is not checked against your state laws. If the ATF/NFA tried to get specific at any point the trust would be deemed invalid and you would be in the possession of Class 3 items without proper registration. There are to many ways then could come after it. Will they ever do that? Who knows.... do I feel better that I spent the money on the attorney's trust? Hell yes!
The quicken version is also NOT NFA firearms specific.... it's to broad. You need something that is correctly worded. It also is not specific in the passing down of the items once you are dead and gone.
I started out with Quicken.... then I felt it was not concrete enough for me.
</div></div>
I paid $450 to an attorney who specializes in NFA trusts. I have family members on the trust, and I may move in the future, in-state and possibly out-of-state. I can call my lawyer at any time, and have him amend the trust at any time to fit my needs. If I have kids to add, or parents to take off, I can go to my lawyer.
Can quicken do that? Maybe I should word it differently: Do you trust quicken to do that?
I sleep well at night, but if quicken let's you sleep at night, more power to ya. </div></div>
Good point kimber....
Each state has different laws as what can define a trust. They all have different parameters. But the ATF/NFA is checking the trusts in accordance with state laws regarding trusts. They had a major backup about 2 years ago because they were having all the trusts laws checked. That's about the time I researched and made the decision to spend the money on the lawyer written trust.
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sendero_man</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: K_4c</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sendero_man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">my original question was on the do it yourself for a reason... I can't find a lawyer to do a NFA trust in Wyoming. I have even called the Wyoming State Bar for a referral and have had none.
Any one have any other ideas on how to find a lawyer in Wyoming, that knows our laws to do a NFA / gun trust ?
</div></div>
Yeah because the gun trust lawyers down in Florida know your state laws... Haha... You already did the dirt work and asked practicing lawyers and even they had no answer. I'd really try to reach out to other class 3 owners(in your state) and see what route they went. Or perhaps, touch bases with an NFA rep for the most sound answer. </div></div>
everyone in WY that I know has one, did not do a trust. just had SO sign off </div></div>
If everyone is getting an easy LEO sign off why do you want the trust?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sendero_man</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: K_4c</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sendero_man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">my original question was on the do it yourself for a reason... I can't find a lawyer to do a NFA trust in Wyoming. I have even called the Wyoming State Bar for a referral and have had none.
Any one have any other ideas on how to find a lawyer in Wyoming, that knows our laws to do a NFA / gun trust ?
</div></div>
Yeah because the gun trust lawyers down in Florida know your state laws... Haha... You already did the dirt work and asked practicing lawyers and even they had no answer. I'd really try to reach out to other class 3 owners(in your state) and see what route they went. Or perhaps, touch bases with an NFA rep for the most sound answer. </div></div>
everyone in WY that I know has one, did not do a trust. just had SO sign off </div></div>
If everyone is getting an easy LEO sign off why do you want the trust?
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
probably the same reason I have a trust, that owns NFA items separate from the business, as a dealer.... I want my wife to have access to certain things
probably the same reason I have a trust, that owns NFA items separate from the business, as a dealer.... I want my wife to have access to certain things
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">probably the same reason I have a trust, that owns NFA items separate from the business, as a dealer.... I want my wife to have access to certain things </div></div>
Yes, that's a good point, but I'm asking what SM's reason is..... not yours. I got mine because although I did have a chief LEO that would sign I hated to keep bothering him for signatures. So, the trust was the easiest way for me to get it sent off and be protected by the document, it would also give my family access to the items if something happened to me.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">probably the same reason I have a trust, that owns NFA items separate from the business, as a dealer.... I want my wife to have access to certain things </div></div>
Yes, that's a good point, but I'm asking what SM's reason is..... not yours. I got mine because although I did have a chief LEO that would sign I hated to keep bothering him for signatures. So, the trust was the easiest way for me to get it sent off and be protected by the document, it would also give my family access to the items if something happened to me.
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
I'm going to have my friend who's an attorney review the links KY posted (not busting your balls KY, they're great links and I'm curious on the validity of the claims by the site) and then review the trust that most of the local shops are using which are likely Quicken Trusts. I will say this though. No one can go to Prison just because the trust is one day deemed invalid by the BATFE. They would revoke the stamp and seize the NFA items. If the possessor didn't comply only then could they pursue criminal charges. Those stories are nothing more than scare tactics to drum up business. Here's the follow-up to the alleged threat of 10 years in prison.
<span style="font-style: italic">
<span style="font-weight: bold">"The BATFE and individual have requested that the details not be disclosed. The BATFE does not want to jeopardize similar ongoing investigations involving invalid trusts. We can state that the issues involved with this action have been covered elsewhere on this website."</span></span>
Since it's not an active investigation and a closed case it would be public information. I HIGHLY doubt the individual being harassed by the BATFE would not want to disclose everything since according to the original article they were made aware of the situation by a blog post. They inserted that statement simply to scare anyone using a Trust to contact them and again generate business. It's very convenient that one of their "Gun Trust Lawyers" came in to save the day.
I'm going to have my friend who's an attorney review the links KY posted (not busting your balls KY, they're great links and I'm curious on the validity of the claims by the site) and then review the trust that most of the local shops are using which are likely Quicken Trusts. I will say this though. No one can go to Prison just because the trust is one day deemed invalid by the BATFE. They would revoke the stamp and seize the NFA items. If the possessor didn't comply only then could they pursue criminal charges. Those stories are nothing more than scare tactics to drum up business. Here's the follow-up to the alleged threat of 10 years in prison.
<span style="font-style: italic">
<span style="font-weight: bold">"The BATFE and individual have requested that the details not be disclosed. The BATFE does not want to jeopardize similar ongoing investigations involving invalid trusts. We can state that the issues involved with this action have been covered elsewhere on this website."</span></span>
Since it's not an active investigation and a closed case it would be public information. I HIGHLY doubt the individual being harassed by the BATFE would not want to disclose everything since according to the original article they were made aware of the situation by a blog post. They inserted that statement simply to scare anyone using a Trust to contact them and again generate business. It's very convenient that one of their "Gun Trust Lawyers" came in to save the day.
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">An attoney written trust is no more immune from that than a Quicken trust.</div></div>Reality Check: It's not the ATF that gets charged with an NFA violation.
The ATF can approve the transfer, but that doesn't automatically make possession of item legal. Once an NFA item is made illegal it can never be made legal, so it must be surrendered and destroyed.
Of course, one can't claim to be a victim unless one blames someone else for what happened. Don't be a hater simply because fools and their NFA weapons are so easily separated from each other.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">An attoney written trust is no more immune from that than a Quicken trust.</div></div>Reality Check: It's not the ATF that gets charged with an NFA violation.
The ATF can approve the transfer, but that doesn't automatically make possession of item legal. Once an NFA item is made illegal it can never be made legal, so it must be surrendered and destroyed.
Of course, one can't claim to be a victim unless one blames someone else for what happened. Don't be a hater simply because fools and their NFA weapons are so easily separated from each other.
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">An attoney written trust is no more immune from that than a Quicken trust.</div></div>Reality Check: It's not the ATF that gets charged with an NFA violation.
The ATF can approve the transfer, but that doesn't automatically make possession of item legal. Once an NFA item is made illegal it can never be made legal, so it must be surrendered and destroyed.
Of course, one can't claim to be a victim unless one blames someone else for what happened. Don't be a hater simply because fools and their NFA weapons are so easily separated from each other. </div></div>
Is there's no appeal prior to destruction or can an Attorney revise an invalid trust making it valid again and enable the possessor to retain the NFA item?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">An attoney written trust is no more immune from that than a Quicken trust.</div></div>Reality Check: It's not the ATF that gets charged with an NFA violation.
The ATF can approve the transfer, but that doesn't automatically make possession of item legal. Once an NFA item is made illegal it can never be made legal, so it must be surrendered and destroyed.
Of course, one can't claim to be a victim unless one blames someone else for what happened. Don't be a hater simply because fools and their NFA weapons are so easily separated from each other.
Is there's no appeal prior to destruction or can an Attorney revise an invalid trust making it valid again and enable the possessor to retain the NFA item?
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">probably the same reason I have a trust, that owns NFA items separate from the business, as a dealer.... I want my wife to have access to certain things </div></div>
Yes, that's a good point, but I'm asking what SM's reason is..... not yours. I got mine because although I did have a chief LEO that would sign I hated to keep bothering him for signatures. So, the trust was the easiest way for me to get it sent off and be protected by the document, it would also give my family access to the items if something happened to me. </div></div>
same reason as FM... wife, kids, trustees to have and use...and if I die, the trust keeps/retains ownership. cans with a legacy... grin
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">probably the same reason I have a trust, that owns NFA items separate from the business, as a dealer.... I want my wife to have access to certain things </div></div>
Yes, that's a good point, but I'm asking what SM's reason is..... not yours. I got mine because although I did have a chief LEO that would sign I hated to keep bothering him for signatures. So, the trust was the easiest way for me to get it sent off and be protected by the document, it would also give my family access to the items if something happened to me. </div></div>
same reason as FM... wife, kids, trustees to have and use...and if I die, the trust keeps/retains ownership. cans with a legacy... grin
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">An attoney written trust is no more immune from that than a Quicken trust.</div></div>Reality Check: It's not the ATF that gets charged with an NFA violation.
The ATF can approve the transfer, but that doesn't automatically make possession of item legal. Once an NFA item is made illegal it can never be made legal, so it must be surrendered and destroyed.
Of course, one can't claim to be a victim unless one blames someone else for what happened. Don't be a hater simply because fools and their NFA weapons are so easily separated from each other. </div></div>
Not that I'm disagreeing with you but this really seems like entrapment..... Approve and deny all in the same sentence.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">An attoney written trust is no more immune from that than a Quicken trust.</div></div>Reality Check: It's not the ATF that gets charged with an NFA violation.
The ATF can approve the transfer, but that doesn't automatically make possession of item legal. Once an NFA item is made illegal it can never be made legal, so it must be surrendered and destroyed.
Of course, one can't claim to be a victim unless one blames someone else for what happened. Don't be a hater simply because fools and their NFA weapons are so easily separated from each other.
Not that I'm disagreeing with you but this really seems like entrapment..... Approve and deny all in the same sentence.
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">An attoney written trust is no more immune from that than a Quicken trust.</div></div>Reality Check: It's not the ATF that gets charged with an NFA violation.
The ATF can approve the transfer, but that doesn't automatically make possession of item legal. Once an NFA item is made illegal it can never be made legal, so it must be surrendered and destroyed.
Of course, one can't claim to be a victim unless one blames someone else for what happened. Don't be a hater simply because fools and their NFA weapons are so easily separated from each other. </div></div>
Is there's no appeal prior to destruction or can an Attorney revise an invalid trust making it valid again and enable the possessor to retain the NFA item? </div></div>
That would be amending a trust. So yes, that can be done. I had my quicken made trust (same name, address, people involved) rewritten by the law firm and then checked by a local lawyer. The nice thing is, whenever I have a question or need some help that law firm is there for me at no charge.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">An attoney written trust is no more immune from that than a Quicken trust.</div></div>Reality Check: It's not the ATF that gets charged with an NFA violation.
The ATF can approve the transfer, but that doesn't automatically make possession of item legal. Once an NFA item is made illegal it can never be made legal, so it must be surrendered and destroyed.
Of course, one can't claim to be a victim unless one blames someone else for what happened. Don't be a hater simply because fools and their NFA weapons are so easily separated from each other.
Is there's no appeal prior to destruction or can an Attorney revise an invalid trust making it valid again and enable the possessor to retain the NFA item? </div></div>
That would be amending a trust. So yes, that can be done. I had my quicken made trust (same name, address, people involved) rewritten by the law firm and then checked by a local lawyer. The nice thing is, whenever I have a question or need some help that law firm is there for me at no charge.
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: K_4c</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not that I'm disagreeing with you but this really seems like entrapment..... Approve and deny all in the same sentence. </div></div>Entrapment is a defense. It is conduct by a law enforcement agent inducing a person to commit an offense that the person would otherwise have been unlikely to commit. The ATF would have had to talk you into committing a crime that you would otherwise not have committed. Approval is not entrapment, it's just a rule that you can't rely on their administrative mistakes as a defense for you doing it wrong in the first place.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is there's no appeal prior to destruction or can an Attorney revise an invalid trust making it valid again and enable the possessor to retain the NFA item? </div></div><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That would be amending a trust. So yes, that can be done. I had my quicken made trust (same name, address, people involved) rewritten by the law firm and then checked by a local lawyer.</div></div>Trusts get amended all the time; that's what they're for. But was your first trust deemed unlawful; weapons deemed to be unlawfully possessed, and you appealed?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: K_4c</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not that I'm disagreeing with you but this really seems like entrapment..... Approve and deny all in the same sentence. </div></div>Entrapment is a defense. It is conduct by a law enforcement agent inducing a person to commit an offense that the person would otherwise have been unlikely to commit. The ATF would have had to talk you into committing a crime that you would otherwise not have committed. Approval is not entrapment, it's just a rule that you can't rely on their administrative mistakes as a defense for you doing it wrong in the first place.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is there's no appeal prior to destruction or can an Attorney revise an invalid trust making it valid again and enable the possessor to retain the NFA item? </div></div><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That would be amending a trust. So yes, that can be done. I had my quicken made trust (same name, address, people involved) rewritten by the law firm and then checked by a local lawyer.</div></div>Trusts get amended all the time; that's what they're for. But was your first trust deemed unlawful; weapons deemed to be unlawfully possessed, and you appealed?
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
Then why "approve" a faulty trust? Why not protect its citizens and allow a better description of what is needed in a NFA trust rather then just approving it? Just because a lawyer writes up a trust does not make it bullet proof. Human is to error and even those practicing may interrupt a state/federal law incorrectly.
Then why "approve" a faulty trust? Why not protect its citizens and allow a better description of what is needed in a NFA trust rather then just approving it? Just because a lawyer writes up a trust does not make it bullet proof. Human is to error and even those practicing may interrupt a state/federal law incorrectly.
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
I just want to see evidence of 1 person whose trust was approved, then deemed invalid, and the outcome...
were they charged?
did they lose an item?
were they informed and given an opportunity to revise the trust?
no other issues, they didn't provide false info, didn't commit an additional offense, they just had an incorrectly written trust.
because much like justifiable homicide w/ reloads, NFA items, police officers using odd calibers, etc, etc...
I personally think this is just a bunch of chicken shits being paranoid.
I just want to see evidence of 1 person whose trust was approved, then deemed invalid, and the outcome...
were they charged?
did they lose an item?
were they informed and given an opportunity to revise the trust?
no other issues, they didn't provide false info, didn't commit an additional offense, they just had an incorrectly written trust.
because much like justifiable homicide w/ reloads, NFA items, police officers using odd calibers, etc, etc...
I personally think this is just a bunch of chicken shits being paranoid.
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: K_4c</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Then why "approve" a faulty trust? Why not protect its citizens and allow a better description of what is needed in a NFA trust rather then just approving it?</div></div>Seriously? Your question is why does the ATF not give out legal advice for the purpose of protecting you against your own mistakes?
It's a free country: You're free to own NFA items; but that means you're also free to take responsibility for your own screw-ups.
Look: I am a lawyer and I used a lawyer more familiar with the NFA than I am to draft my trust. Then I sent it to a State lawyer to go over it for compliance with State law. I did that not because I'm part of some vast left-wing conspiracy to keep lawyers in business. I did it because, given the harsh penalties in the NFA, there's a very small risk of a catastrophic result. That, and I'm not using my NFA trust to hold popsicle sticks - In an era when cans cost a grand each I can't justify saving a few hundred bucks on the document that underpins the whole thing.
Do you need a lawyer? No. Not yet. Maybe never. Are lawyers getting rich off giving you a six hundred dollar trust document? Give me a break... Have I seen perfectly valid contracts and other documents drawn-up by laypeople on cocktail napkins at 3am? Sure. But the second best thing you can use a lawyer for is to defend you. The best thing you can use a lawyer for is to ensure your compliance with the law so that no future defense will become necessary.
I'm not advocating for paranoia, I'm advocating for prudence.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: K_4c</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Then why "approve" a faulty trust? Why not protect its citizens and allow a better description of what is needed in a NFA trust rather then just approving it?</div></div>Seriously? Your question is why does the ATF not give out legal advice for the purpose of protecting you against your own mistakes?
It's a free country: You're free to own NFA items; but that means you're also free to take responsibility for your own screw-ups.
Look: I am a lawyer and I used a lawyer more familiar with the NFA than I am to draft my trust. Then I sent it to a State lawyer to go over it for compliance with State law. I did that not because I'm part of some vast left-wing conspiracy to keep lawyers in business. I did it because, given the harsh penalties in the NFA, there's a very small risk of a catastrophic result. That, and I'm not using my NFA trust to hold popsicle sticks - In an era when cans cost a grand each I can't justify saving a few hundred bucks on the document that underpins the whole thing.
Do you need a lawyer? No. Not yet. Maybe never. Are lawyers getting rich off giving you a six hundred dollar trust document? Give me a break... Have I seen perfectly valid contracts and other documents drawn-up by laypeople on cocktail napkins at 3am? Sure. But the second best thing you can use a lawyer for is to defend you. The best thing you can use a lawyer for is to ensure your compliance with the law so that no future defense will become necessary.
I'm not advocating for paranoia, I'm advocating for prudence.
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: K_4c</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not that I'm disagreeing with you but this really seems like entrapment..... Approve and deny all in the same sentence. </div></div>Entrapment is a defense. It is conduct by a law enforcement agent inducing a person to commit an offense that the person would otherwise have been unlikely to commit. The ATF would have had to talk you into committing a crime that you would otherwise not have committed. Approval is not entrapment, it's just a rule that you can't rely on their administrative mistakes as a defense for you doing it wrong in the first place.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is there's no appeal prior to destruction or can an Attorney revise an invalid trust making it valid again and enable the possessor to retain the NFA item? </div></div><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That would be amending a trust. So yes, that can be done. I had my quicken made trust (same name, address, people involved) rewritten by the law firm and then checked by a local lawyer.</div></div>Trusts get amended all the time; that's what they're for. But was your first trust deemed unlawful; weapons deemed to be unlawfully possessed, and you appealed?
</div></div>
Keep reading Graham. I wanted to amend my trust because I was not secure with the fact I had such an open ended document that could adversely affect my life for the negative IF it were to go bad.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: K_4c</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not that I'm disagreeing with you but this really seems like entrapment..... Approve and deny all in the same sentence. </div></div>Entrapment is a defense. It is conduct by a law enforcement agent inducing a person to commit an offense that the person would otherwise have been unlikely to commit. The ATF would have had to talk you into committing a crime that you would otherwise not have committed. Approval is not entrapment, it's just a rule that you can't rely on their administrative mistakes as a defense for you doing it wrong in the first place.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is there's no appeal prior to destruction or can an Attorney revise an invalid trust making it valid again and enable the possessor to retain the NFA item? </div></div><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That would be amending a trust. So yes, that can be done. I had my quicken made trust (same name, address, people involved) rewritten by the law firm and then checked by a local lawyer.</div></div>Trusts get amended all the time; that's what they're for. But was your first trust deemed unlawful; weapons deemed to be unlawfully possessed, and you appealed?
</div></div>
Keep reading Graham. I wanted to amend my trust because I was not secure with the fact I had such an open ended document that could adversely affect my life for the negative IF it were to go bad.
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: K_4c</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Then why "approve" a faulty trust? Why not protect its citizens and allow a better description of what is needed in a NFA trust rather then just approving it?</div></div>Seriously? Your question is why does the ATF not give out legal advice for the purpose of protecting you against your own mistakes?
It's a free country: You're free to own NFA items; but that means you're also free to take responsibility for your own screw-ups.
Look: I am a lawyer and I used a lawyer more familiar with the NFA than I am to draft my trust. Then I sent it to a State lawyer to go over it for compliance with State law. I did that not because I'm part of some vast left-wing conspiracy to keep lawyers in business. I did it because, given the harsh penalties in the NFA, there's a very small risk of a catastrophic result. That, and I'm not using my NFA trust to hold popsicle sticks - In an era when cans cost a grand each I can't justify saving a few hundred bucks on the document that underpins the whole thing.
Do you need a lawyer? No. Not yet. Maybe never. Are lawyers getting rich off giving you a six hundred dollar trust document? Give me a break... Have I seen perfectly valid contracts and other documents drawn-up by laypeople on cocktail napkins at 3am? Sure. But the second best thing you can use a lawyer for is to defend you. The best thing you can use a lawyer for is to ensure your compliance with the law so that no future defense will become necessary.
I'm not advocating for paranoia, I'm advocating for prudence. </div></div>
Point taken.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: K_4c</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Then why "approve" a faulty trust? Why not protect its citizens and allow a better description of what is needed in a NFA trust rather then just approving it?</div></div>Seriously? Your question is why does the ATF not give out legal advice for the purpose of protecting you against your own mistakes?
It's a free country: You're free to own NFA items; but that means you're also free to take responsibility for your own screw-ups.
Look: I am a lawyer and I used a lawyer more familiar with the NFA than I am to draft my trust. Then I sent it to a State lawyer to go over it for compliance with State law. I did that not because I'm part of some vast left-wing conspiracy to keep lawyers in business. I did it because, given the harsh penalties in the NFA, there's a very small risk of a catastrophic result. That, and I'm not using my NFA trust to hold popsicle sticks - In an era when cans cost a grand each I can't justify saving a few hundred bucks on the document that underpins the whole thing.
Do you need a lawyer? No. Not yet. Maybe never. Are lawyers getting rich off giving you a six hundred dollar trust document? Give me a break... Have I seen perfectly valid contracts and other documents drawn-up by laypeople on cocktail napkins at 3am? Sure. But the second best thing you can use a lawyer for is to defend you. The best thing you can use a lawyer for is to ensure your compliance with the law so that no future defense will become necessary.
I'm not advocating for paranoia, I'm advocating for prudence. </div></div>
Point taken.
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just want to see evidence of 1 person whose trust was approved, then deemed invalid, and the outcome...
were they charged?
did they lose an item?
were they informed and given an opportunity to revise the trust?
no other issues, they didn't provide false info, didn't commit an additional offense, they just had an incorrectly written trust.
because much like justifiable homicide w/ reloads, NFA items, police officers using odd calibers, etc, etc...
I personally think this is just a bunch of chicken shits being paranoid. </div></div>
I too would enjoy that read...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just want to see evidence of 1 person whose trust was approved, then deemed invalid, and the outcome...
were they charged?
did they lose an item?
were they informed and given an opportunity to revise the trust?
no other issues, they didn't provide false info, didn't commit an additional offense, they just had an incorrectly written trust.
because much like justifiable homicide w/ reloads, NFA items, police officers using odd calibers, etc, etc...
I personally think this is just a bunch of chicken shits being paranoid. </div></div>
I too would enjoy that read...
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Once an NFA item is made illegal it can never be made legal</div></div>
Right, an NFA item 'made' illegal. What exactly makes an NFA item illegal? Nothing of course. Now a person's or entity's possession of the NFA item might be deemed illegal, but as previously uttered "show me one example of this happening".
Thank you for spreading bullshit FUD that 'nfa' lawyers spout to scare people into their boilerplate trusts with the words 'NFA' scattered here and there.
I've seen two trust from 'NFA' lawyers and they both included crazy bullshit that made no sense such as "I Bob Smith, acting as Grantor, hereby transfer all existing and future NFA items into the Bob Smith NFA Trust". Oh really, you transfer all existing NFA items into your trust, before submitting this here trust to get the transfers approved by the BATFE. That shows a lack of understanding by these supposed experts.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Once an NFA item is made illegal it can never be made legal</div></div>
Right, an NFA item 'made' illegal. What exactly makes an NFA item illegal? Nothing of course. Now a person's or entity's possession of the NFA item might be deemed illegal, but as previously uttered "show me one example of this happening".
Thank you for spreading bullshit FUD that 'nfa' lawyers spout to scare people into their boilerplate trusts with the words 'NFA' scattered here and there.
I've seen two trust from 'NFA' lawyers and they both included crazy bullshit that made no sense such as "I Bob Smith, acting as Grantor, hereby transfer all existing and future NFA items into the Bob Smith NFA Trust". Oh really, you transfer all existing NFA items into your trust, before submitting this here trust to get the transfers approved by the BATFE. That shows a lack of understanding by these supposed experts.
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Look: I am a lawyer............. </div></div>
/thread.
You needn't say another word......I know everything I need to know regarding any further post of yours on this subject.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Look: I am a lawyer............. </div></div>
/thread.
You needn't say another word......I know everything I need to know regarding any further post of yours on this subject.
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vinson</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Once an NFA item is made illegal it can never be made legal</div></div>
Right, an NFA item 'made' illegal. What exactly makes an NFA item illegal? Nothing of course. Now a person's or entity's possession of the NFA item might be deemed illegal, but as previously uttered "show me one example of this happening".
Thank you for spreading bullshit FUD that 'nfa' lawyers spout to scare people into their boilerplate trusts with the words 'NFA' scattered here and there.
I've seen two trust from 'NFA' lawyers and they both included crazy bullshit that made no sense such as "I Bob Smith, acting as Grantor, hereby transfer all existing and future NFA items into the Bob Smith NFA Trust". Oh really, you transfer all existing NFA items into your trust, before submitting this here trust to get the transfers approved by the BATFE. That shows a lack of understanding by these supposed experts.
</div></div>
LOL.....number one rookie mistake people make in a trust for NFA items. They transfer ownership of said NFA items to the trust before they have even been approved by the ATF to own the items in the first place.
Like the other poster said, can someone please state an example of where someone had a trust approved by the ATF and then subsequently revoked and had their items seized or worse, put in prison?
One example please.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vinson</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Once an NFA item is made illegal it can never be made legal</div></div>
Right, an NFA item 'made' illegal. What exactly makes an NFA item illegal? Nothing of course. Now a person's or entity's possession of the NFA item might be deemed illegal, but as previously uttered "show me one example of this happening".
Thank you for spreading bullshit FUD that 'nfa' lawyers spout to scare people into their boilerplate trusts with the words 'NFA' scattered here and there.
I've seen two trust from 'NFA' lawyers and they both included crazy bullshit that made no sense such as "I Bob Smith, acting as Grantor, hereby transfer all existing and future NFA items into the Bob Smith NFA Trust". Oh really, you transfer all existing NFA items into your trust, before submitting this here trust to get the transfers approved by the BATFE. That shows a lack of understanding by these supposed experts.
</div></div>
LOL.....number one rookie mistake people make in a trust for NFA items. They transfer ownership of said NFA items to the trust before they have even been approved by the ATF to own the items in the first place.
Like the other poster said, can someone please state an example of where someone had a trust approved by the ATF and then subsequently revoked and had their items seized or worse, put in prison?
One example please.
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Look: I am a lawyer............. </div></div>
/thread.
You needn't say another word......I know everything I need to know regarding any further post of yours on this subject. </div></div>
Why? Because he's an Attorney? He's not getting paid for it, he's doesn't need your to referral business, and he's not at any benefit period. He probably makes twice your income or more and could give a shit less whether any of here call him. Graham even said himself he went to another Attorney regarding his own Trust as he was not an expert on NFA items. If anything you should be thankful he's bothering to chime in with an opinion and who knows how many years of schooling and experience in the justice field that most of us can't claim. Other than your ownership of NFA item(s) what makes your advice any more beneficial?
Everyone wants to hate on Attorneys until they fuck up and need one. They'll blame them if they lose, and they bitch when they win because they have to pay them. I have numerous attorney friends who are great people, but it never ceases to amaze me at the jackwagons at gathering or where ever that will bad mouth them based upon their occupation. What do you do for a living Lofty?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Look: I am a lawyer............. </div></div>
/thread.
You needn't say another word......I know everything I need to know regarding any further post of yours on this subject. </div></div>
Why? Because he's an Attorney? He's not getting paid for it, he's doesn't need your to referral business, and he's not at any benefit period. He probably makes twice your income or more and could give a shit less whether any of here call him. Graham even said himself he went to another Attorney regarding his own Trust as he was not an expert on NFA items. If anything you should be thankful he's bothering to chime in with an opinion and who knows how many years of schooling and experience in the justice field that most of us can't claim. Other than your ownership of NFA item(s) what makes your advice any more beneficial?
Everyone wants to hate on Attorneys until they fuck up and need one. They'll blame them if they lose, and they bitch when they win because they have to pay them. I have numerous attorney friends who are great people, but it never ceases to amaze me at the jackwagons at gathering or where ever that will bad mouth them based upon their occupation. What do you do for a living Lofty?
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
fwiw-Graham is a really good guy an anytime he chimes in on a thread, especially regarding legal stuff, he is doing it to help out, so chill out and listen to what he has to say.
fwiw-Graham is a really good guy an anytime he chimes in on a thread, especially regarding legal stuff, he is doing it to help out, so chill out and listen to what he has to say.
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
Sendero, I've done three with Quicken. The last one being approved last week. I would not hesitate to use it if I were you.
Sendero, I've done three with Quicken. The last one being approved last week. I would not hesitate to use it if I were you.
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
He may be a great guy, in fact I'm sure he is.
My point is he sees things through an attorneys eyes. Attorneys want you to use an attorney to get a legal opinion on how to wipe your ass these days. Everything to an attorney requires an attorney. They have succeeded in making this such a litigious society that you can't escape it.
I love it when people say everyone's hates an attorney until they need one......except most of the time you only need one because of another attorney!!
In any case, I'm not insulting him personally. I'm a prior law enforcement officer turned business owner and Ive known quite a few attorneys in my day.....even some I wouldn't want to see at the bottom of the Atlantic.
Just as a profession I tend to take everything they say with a grain of salt.
So back to my question, can any legal type here point to a specific case where a persons trust was found invalid and after which the ATF either seized the property or imprisoned the trustee?
Until such time I maintain that any other claim is hyperbole and legal bluster and fear tactics. If I file a proper trust, don't lie or falsify anything, the ATF approves it, I'm not going to jail......regardless of what an attorney says.
He may be a great guy, in fact I'm sure he is.
My point is he sees things through an attorneys eyes. Attorneys want you to use an attorney to get a legal opinion on how to wipe your ass these days. Everything to an attorney requires an attorney. They have succeeded in making this such a litigious society that you can't escape it.
I love it when people say everyone's hates an attorney until they need one......except most of the time you only need one because of another attorney!!
In any case, I'm not insulting him personally. I'm a prior law enforcement officer turned business owner and Ive known quite a few attorneys in my day.....even some I wouldn't want to see at the bottom of the Atlantic.
Just as a profession I tend to take everything they say with a grain of salt.
So back to my question, can any legal type here point to a specific case where a persons trust was found invalid and after which the ATF either seized the property or imprisoned the trustee?
Until such time I maintain that any other claim is hyperbole and legal bluster and fear tactics. If I file a proper trust, don't lie or falsify anything, the ATF approves it, I'm not going to jail......regardless of what an attorney says.
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vinson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thank you for spreading bullshit FUD that 'nfa' lawyers spout to scare people into their boilerplate trusts with the words 'NFA' scattered here and there.</div></div>Of course you are right: People who seek legal advice are probably better off taking your advice instead.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Look: I am a lawyer............. </div></div>/thread.
You needn't say another word......I know everything I need to know...</div></div>OK, then I won't say another word. My mistake: I'll leave this Thread to those who know everything but not much more than that.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vinson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thank you for spreading bullshit FUD that 'nfa' lawyers spout to scare people into their boilerplate trusts with the words 'NFA' scattered here and there.</div></div>Of course you are right: People who seek legal advice are probably better off taking your advice instead.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Look: I am a lawyer............. </div></div>/thread.
You needn't say another word......I know everything I need to know...</div></div>OK, then I won't say another word. My mistake: I'll leave this Thread to those who know everything but not much more than that.
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ColoWyo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sendero, I've done three with Quicken. The last one being approved last week. I would not hesitate to use it if I were you. </div></div>
Why have you done three? Doing them for others puts liability on you should something happen regarding the trust. If a friend got his trust from you and needed some legal aid over using your trust, could you provide that for him/her?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ColoWyo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sendero, I've done three with Quicken. The last one being approved last week. I would not hesitate to use it if I were you. </div></div>
Why have you done three? Doing them for others puts liability on you should something happen regarding the trust. If a friend got his trust from you and needed some legal aid over using your trust, could you provide that for him/her?
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ColoWyo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sendero, I've done three with Quicken. The last one being approved last week. I would not hesitate to use it if I were you. </div></div>
Why have you done three? Doing them for others puts liability on you should something happen regarding the trust. If a friend got his trust from you and needed some legal aid over using your trust, could you provide that for him/her? </div></div>
Three suppressors.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ColoWyo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sendero, I've done three with Quicken. The last one being approved last week. I would not hesitate to use it if I were you. </div></div>
Why have you done three? Doing them for others puts liability on you should something happen regarding the trust. If a friend got his trust from you and needed some legal aid over using your trust, could you provide that for him/her? </div></div>
Three suppressors.
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
Oh gotcha, I thought you wrote three trusts....
Oh gotcha, I thought you wrote three trusts....
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He may be a great guy, in fact I'm sure he is.
My point is he sees things through an attorneys eyes. Attorneys want you to use an attorney to get a legal opinion on how to wipe your ass these days. Everything to an attorney requires an attorney. They have succeeded in making this such a litigious society that you can't escape it.
I love it when people say everyone's hates an attorney until they need one......except most of the time you only need one because of another attorney!!
In any case, I'm not insulting him personally. I'm a prior law enforcement officer turned business owner and Ive known quite a few attorneys in my day.....even some I wouldn't want to see at the bottom of the Atlantic.
Just as a profession I tend to take everything they say with a grain of salt.
So back to my question, <span style="font-weight: bold">can any legal type here point to a specific case where a persons trust was found invalid and after which the ATF either seized the property or imprisoned the trustee</span>?
Until such time I maintain that any other claim is hyperbole and legal bluster and fear tactics. If I file a proper trust, don't lie or falsify anything, the ATF approves it, I'm not going to jail......regardless of what an attorney says.</div></div>
<span style="font-weight: bold">THAT is the big question</span>. There are several attorneys who post over on MDshooters.com, one name of Rusty Shackleford, who INSIST this has happened, but never give specifics. They all want your money. See thread here: http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=7074 Contains full text of trust and link to PDF file (formatted for legal size paper).
As a medical doctor, I have my own reasons to mistrust liars. Ahem, LAWyers. (Same thing, different pronunciation) If it were up to lawyers, it would be illegal to buy bandaids and merthiolate for booboos.
I've run three cans through BATFe using a boiler-plate trust with NFA-specific language. My investment partner/lawyer friend says it's legit.
Why pay another $600 for a standard form trust that any first-year law student can (and probably did) cobble together. If NFA branch decides your trust is invalid, for whatever reason, unless your name is Spielberg or Gates, you will not be able to buy enough legal care to get justice (i.e. - keep your ass out of federal prison). ATF lawyers suck at the public teat, their bounty is endless and they work for the DOJ. There isn't, so far as I know, any legal malpractice insurance, or attorneys who sue other attorneys when they malpractice law. If a lawyer fucks up your paperwork, he's not going to take the heat and pay your fines for you.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He may be a great guy, in fact I'm sure he is.
My point is he sees things through an attorneys eyes. Attorneys want you to use an attorney to get a legal opinion on how to wipe your ass these days. Everything to an attorney requires an attorney. They have succeeded in making this such a litigious society that you can't escape it.
I love it when people say everyone's hates an attorney until they need one......except most of the time you only need one because of another attorney!!
In any case, I'm not insulting him personally. I'm a prior law enforcement officer turned business owner and Ive known quite a few attorneys in my day.....even some I wouldn't want to see at the bottom of the Atlantic.
Just as a profession I tend to take everything they say with a grain of salt.
So back to my question, <span style="font-weight: bold">can any legal type here point to a specific case where a persons trust was found invalid and after which the ATF either seized the property or imprisoned the trustee</span>?
Until such time I maintain that any other claim is hyperbole and legal bluster and fear tactics. If I file a proper trust, don't lie or falsify anything, the ATF approves it, I'm not going to jail......regardless of what an attorney says.</div></div>
<span style="font-weight: bold">THAT is the big question</span>. There are several attorneys who post over on MDshooters.com, one name of Rusty Shackleford, who INSIST this has happened, but never give specifics. They all want your money. See thread here: http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=7074 Contains full text of trust and link to PDF file (formatted for legal size paper).
As a medical doctor, I have my own reasons to mistrust liars. Ahem, LAWyers. (Same thing, different pronunciation) If it were up to lawyers, it would be illegal to buy bandaids and merthiolate for booboos.
I've run three cans through BATFe using a boiler-plate trust with NFA-specific language. My investment partner/lawyer friend says it's legit.
Why pay another $600 for a standard form trust that any first-year law student can (and probably did) cobble together. If NFA branch decides your trust is invalid, for whatever reason, unless your name is Spielberg or Gates, you will not be able to buy enough legal care to get justice (i.e. - keep your ass out of federal prison). ATF lawyers suck at the public teat, their bounty is endless and they work for the DOJ. There isn't, so far as I know, any legal malpractice insurance, or attorneys who sue other attorneys when they malpractice law. If a lawyer fucks up your paperwork, he's not going to take the heat and pay your fines for you.
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???
1) if yall are paying 600 bucks for a lawyer to draft up your NFA trust, your doing it wrong. shop around, it can be had for 200 bucks fairly easily.
2) one reason i went with a lawyer is because if something does get questioned or go wrong with the paperwork, you will have someone to go back to who will have to defend their legal actions. just like with taxes, you can do them yourself, but if you get called to the carpet for an audit, you will have to go alone or hire someone after the fact who will be trying to defend a layman's work. on the other hand, if you go to a CPA and you get audited, you have a person who will have to defend that and you because they did the work. make sense?
as has been said before, will it ever happen to a trust?? maybe not. but to me it was worth 200-250 bucks for me to have something taylored to me personally by a professional.
1) if yall are paying 600 bucks for a lawyer to draft up your NFA trust, your doing it wrong. shop around, it can be had for 200 bucks fairly easily.
2) one reason i went with a lawyer is because if something does get questioned or go wrong with the paperwork, you will have someone to go back to who will have to defend their legal actions. just like with taxes, you can do them yourself, but if you get called to the carpet for an audit, you will have to go alone or hire someone after the fact who will be trying to defend a layman's work. on the other hand, if you go to a CPA and you get audited, you have a person who will have to defend that and you because they did the work. make sense?
as has been said before, will it ever happen to a trust?? maybe not. but to me it was worth 200-250 bucks for me to have something taylored to me personally by a professional.
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