Rifle Scopes Nikon exodus to... Zeus?

[Thunderskunk]

Mornin folks,

I was a Nikon fanboy. Vortex left a sour taste in my mouth after I bought a “.25 MOA per click” AR scope and it turned out they meant “.25 at 50 yards.” Shortly after they changed the wording in their advertising and manuals. I’m not saying they’re bad optics, but I don’t plan on buying from them again.

So why Nikon? They’re a premier manufacturer of “glass.” Camera lenses, other sport optics, even coordinate measuring machines which I’ve gotten to know working with them. They fit the budget, and performed well. From an engineering standpoint, you get what you pay for. I’d rather the corners be cut by a company specializing in optics technology and tooling over anything else (sorry Sig).

Nikon decided to cut ties with rifle scopes. I cried myself to sleep a few nights in a row, now I’m over it. I read the beginners guide threads, and Zeiss immediately caught my eye. They’re known as the premier CMM manufacturer in the manufacturing world. They’ve got some specialized optics applications too. I had no idea they made rifle scopes.

So what’s the scoop? Am I making a good move? Once I commit, that’s it. All the Nikon stuff out the door, and a slow and painful investment in the new. It sounds like Zeiss is a good bit pricier, but I don’t have all that many guns to put optics on anyways. Probably end up buying used to start anyhow.

 

[Olen_4504]

There are SO many better scopes out there than Nikon. Don’t fret.

You need to define your budget and use for the scope for anyone to help you out with what to look at next

 

[308pirate]

@Thunderskunk What is your application?

Zeiss scopes, at least those marketed in the USA, are not well thought out for precision rifle use.

They are heavy in BDC reticles and MOA adjustments. BDC reticles are definitely not compatible with precision marksmanship. MOA adjustments are not incompatible per se, but milliradians offer some compelling advantages over minutes of arc.

If precision rifle shooting is what you mostly do, there are better choices than Zeiss for the same money. Steiner for one.

Vortex's high end offerings (Razor and AMG lines) are outstanding instruments and I think that your reason for completely dismissing Vortex, based on some misprint on one of their low end scopes, is ridiculous

 

[Austinjunks]

I have a Conquest V4 on my 224 hog rifle, it's a nice scope but I wouldn't use it from precision stuff. All of my precision stuff is Bushnell Elite. I have had a great experience with Bushnell products.

 

[Thunderskunk]

Use case is competition, and I’m glad for the feed back. I shoot CMP GSMM with a NM AR. The current scope is an M-223 with something other than a BDC: definitely not about that BDC life. Tried it on the ACOG and that 400m mark never ended with a good grouping.

I did not realize the V4 was a .5MOA adjustment, and since that’s the only scope legal for CMP, that rules that out.

I have an incredible opportunity to shoot a competition with the M2010. The next match probably won’t happen until 2022, so I’ve got two years to prep. Thus my next search is an equivalent to the Leupold Mark 4 ERT 6.5-20x50 M5A2. My Nikon choice was a Nikon Monarch, which would be a Zeiss conquest of some sort I believe, but at twice the price. I’ll get issued the real thing come the competition, but until then I’m just looking for something close enough that I can develop a data book at the range we’re competing at.

Other than that, I’ve got a rimfire I might not bother replacing and a few spotting scopes.

 

[Iron Worker]

I have Athlon Cronus BTR Trijicon Tenmile SWFD SS and two Zeiss V6 scopes ,the glass on the Zeiss is better than them all .

 

[308pirate]

Use case is competition, and I’m glad for the feed back. I shoot CMP GSMM with a NM AR.

Ok that will color my advice. I competed in NRA and CMP service rifle for years, left just before the switch to optics but unlike many of the service rifle competitors who had no clue about optics I was already pretty familiar with their use.

Is the max magnification still 4.5X?

I'll have more to add later on tonight.

 

[308pirate]

I have Athlon Cronus BTR Trijicon Tenmile SWFD SS and two Zeiss V6 scopes ,the glass on the Zeiss is better than them all .

Superior tracking and mechanical reliability trumps superior glass in the OP's application, which is one many here are completely unfamiliar with.

 

[Thunderskunk]

Superior tracking and mechanical reliability trumps superior glass in the OP's application, which is one many here are completely unfamiliar with.

Half of the latter competition is spotting.

I have to believe 60% of the ridiculous price point of an ACOG is for “tracking and mechanical reliability,” but yea it’s extremely important.

 

[Thunderskunk]

Oh and yes, max is 4.5X for CMP. Before I was looking into the little adaptor for the M1 peep sight as I’ve got a bit of astigmatism in my shooting eye, but the scope focus makes it a non-issue.

 

[308pirate]

Half of the latter competition is spotting.

I have to believe 60% of the ridiculous price point of an ACOG is for “tracking and mechanical reliability,” but yea it’s extremely important.

Spotting? I use a Kowa TSN-600 for that.

ACOGs are not scopes that you dial constantly. They are rugged but not the way you're thinking.

All of these would be better suited than an ACOG, the first three designed specifically for NRA/CMP Service Rifle:

Product Description

Product Description | Camera Land NY

cameralandny.com

Product Description

Product Description | Camera Land NY

cameralandny.com

Product Description

Product Description | Camera Land NY

cameralandny.com

Product Description

Product Description | Camera Land NY

cameralandny.com

 

[Thunderskunk]

The only reason I bring up an ACOG is it's what I'm used to. We're either shooting the ACOG or a CCO, and in eight years of seeing everything else break, I've never seen someone break either of the two. Night vision yes, but not optics.

When was the last time you spent $2k on a scope, mounted it to a rifle and then propped said rifle against a random truck tire? Or Laid it in the dirt while tying your shoes? Or picked it up with your fingers on the lenses? Or tossed it into the dump of a truck with a metal floor? This happens every single day in the Army, and those things keep holding zero. Not indestructible, but like I said I've never seen a broken one.

 

[Thunderskunk]

I just noticed the title of my thread was auto-corrected to "Zeus"...

 

[308pirate]

The only reason I bring up an ACOG is it's what I'm used to. We're either shooting the ACOG or a CCO, and in eight years of seeing everything else break, I've never seen someone break either of the two. Night vision yes, but not optics.

When was the last time you spent $2k on a scope, mounted it to a rifle and then propped said rifle against a random truck tire? Or Laid it in the dirt while tying your shoes? Or picked it up with your fingers on the lenses? Or tossed it into the dump of a truck with a metal floor? This happens every single day in the Army, and those things keep holding zero. Not indestructible, but like I said I've never seen a broken one.

I'm trying to help you get a proper scope for service rifle shooting. ACOGs, as good as they are for many things, are not it.

 

[koshkin]

A couple of comments: Nikon did not have anything to do with the design of their riflescopes for the last couple of decades. They were straight OEM products from the Phillipines with Nikon marketing muscle behind them.

A lot of current lower end Zeiss stuff seems to be following that same blueprint, but the higher end stuff is still very competitive.

Zeiss hates everything that has tactical implications which is why they are heavy on the hunting type stuff.

With Zeiss, I would not touch anything below the V6. I am mixed on the V6, but V8 is respectable.

One thing that I did not see is how much money you are looking to spend and how many different scope types you are looking for.

If all you need is a competition scope that goes up to 4.5x, there are not too many affordable options. If you are a serious competitor, just get a March 1-4.5x24 and be done with it.

It is expensive, but it is very good.

If you are looking for a range of different products and you are looking to stay with a single manufacturer that gets a little more difficult, and it ill cost you some money.

For a FFP 50mm scope, I am continuously impressed with the Element Nexus 5-20x50, but is around $1500.

Another scope that you may want to look at in terms of bang for the buck is Brownells MPO 3-18x50 for $1k.

Going below that for FFP precision scopes gets a little tricky, but doable. If you define your price range, I'll offer some more specific suggestions.

ILya

 

[Thunderskunk]

I'm trying to help you get a proper scope for service rifle shooting. ACOGs, as good as they are for many things, are not it.

Don't get me wrong, I agree wholeheartedly. I would never waste my own money on an ACOG because frankly I take generally good care of my equipment. Sorry, I didn't really get to the point with that post.

I've never heard of Athlon. It's got the "dream" parallax adjustment for the CMP high power, and man the price is nice.

 

[Thunderskunk]

One thing that I did not see is how much money you are looking to spend and how many different scope types you are looking for.

That's a shame about the offload of lower end products; I've seen it in quite a few products lately. Starrett comes to mind; I've paid $300 for a single tool from them and been very pleased. Had a height stand with their name on it come in and have .012 of error over 12" but the price was right.

I think it's still up in the air for the National Matches for 2021. If it happens and I have the capital, I might sell the M1 and chalk up for the March. If they don't have a definite answer by January, I'll probably take one of said suggestions to get by. I don't think the M223 I have will survive prep for Camp Perry.

As for the next bolt gun, I'm honestly not sure. I've had CMP blinders up for a bit, but these sniper competitions sound like an absolute blast. I've already seen a lot of great suggestions here, and as you said, it sounds like it's going to be hard to have the same brand optic for two very different styles of competition. Say $1k for now, and I'll adjust resources or keep my eye out for used-good should Camp Perry be closed.

 

[308pirate]

I've never heard of Athlon. It's got the "dream" parallax adjustment for the CMP high power, and man the price is nice.

I know that most highpower shooters are absolutely convinced that they have to have a parallax adjustment. They are wrong. What they need is a consistent head position behind the scope just like you had to have with a post and aperture.

If I were you: Leupold and done.

Cheap Athlons = china. I'm in no mood to buy anything from there. The high end Athlons are made in Japan.

 

[myronman3]

i swore off nikon scopes for adjustment value being 3x what it was supposed to be. on three different scopes no less.

 

[WB300]

What do you guys think of the Steiner P4xi 1-4, or the pricey NF NSX 4.5x?

 

[308pirate]

What do you guys think of the Steiner P4xi 1-4, or the pricey NF NSX 4.5x?

The Steiner is not a good buy for NRA/CMP Service Rifle. The turrets are mushy (I have one) and are there to zero the scope and be capped to not be touched again until it's time to re-zero. It's a great scope for a fighting or hunting rifle where you're either going to use the BDC reticle or just zero for MPBR and go.

The Nightforce was designed for Service Rifle competition.