Noveske AR-10

[widnerkj]

So, I'm jumping in... Feet first. I've got to get myself an AR-10, and I sort of have a plan. I'm just a little confused. I know I want to use a Noveske 21" Barrel, and I'd like to use the Iron Ridge upper & lower (because of the 23 MOA machined into the upper). But I'm reading the Noveske barrel is specifically for Armalite patterned upper recievers. I'd like to do it DMPS on account of me being partial to magpul magazines. Are the uppers diffrent? I thought the lowers were just slightly diffrent.
Any help / ridicule / jeers will be appreciated.

 

[Thorax]

Re: Noveske AR-10

They are different and incompatible.

You'll find the receiver threads and the tube receptical for the barrel to not fit the Noveske.
Noveske has no fit clauses all over the ar10/p308 stuff they sell.

You'd be better off with a Kreiger/Douglas/Lilja/Schneider/Shilen barrel anyways since they have more than 2 years experience in making barrels.

I was wanting to build a 308 myself but have found brick walls every where I looked for information....either no one knows, or they feel that you should pay them for what should be free information.
Screw that BS...

Why should I support a company with my hard earned dollars if they cannot tell me thier own product will, or will not, fit without issues ?

I'm going to EDM/mill a block of 7075-T651 to my specs.
I know it's such a stretch to have a full understanding of MasterCam and be able to use a few CNC machines.....right ?
47$ worth of aluminum and about 3 hours of my time vs. 600+$ and not knowing it will work with the components I choose....hmm, lemme think about that...

 

[toddk]

Re: Noveske AR-10

Armalite barrels will fit in the DPMS receiver. The threads limit the interchange of barrel nuts and handguards with proprietary barrel nuts but have nothing to do with the barrel extension fitting into the receiver.

Headspace and the length of the lugs may be an issue, as well as the gas because of the different springs, buffers and gas system lengths Armalite and DPMS use.

 

[Falar]

Re: Noveske AR-10

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Thorax</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You'd be better off with a Kreiger/Douglas/Lilja/Schneider/Shilen barrel anyways since they have more than 2 years experience in making barrels.

</div></div>

If you think John Noveske is new to barrels you would be mistaken. He was at Pac-Nor prior to starting his own company and the two companies are still affiliated with one another.

In fact, if you read this article it appears that at least as of this date (in 2008) his barrels were made by Pac-Nor employees:

http://new.defensereview.com/noveske-rif...rview-part-one/

 

[Badshot308]

Re: Noveske AR-10

widnerkj, look at this thread http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...111#Post1765111 There were links given http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=62&t=378850 and http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=121&t=413443 that give relevant information on the differences between the various 308 AR's. The AR10 was never adopted by the US military as a service rifle and there is no mil-spec for them. Every manufacturer is doing their own proprietary thing. You have to pick a platform and then purchase the parts made for it or compatible with it. Thorax was told this and didn't like the answers he was given. If he wants to machine his own weapon, best of luck to him. If you choose the DPMS platform, just know that DPMS has changed their upper receiver rail height so that depending on what receiver you obtain, it may or may not line up with and an aftermarket four railed handguard. You'll need to do research and ask some questions to do a build.

 

[widnerkj]

Re: Noveske AR-10

I really like the look of the Iron Ridge arms recievers, and really like the 23 moa cant machined into the rail on the upper. But I'd like to use Magpul mags. If I do this build, I'll probally (most likely) be using a FF tube. I'd love to run a DD light rail, but it doesn't look like the billet upper will allow that. I'm still just in the planning and research part of it, as I have 2 6.5 grendels to put together. That project is still a long way off. But for sure I want that Noveske 21" Barrel. If i have to use armalight mags, then so be it.

 

[Badshot308]

Re: Noveske AR-10

I believe he has a DD rail installed in this photo http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2010/01/27/iron-ridge-arms-a-308-built-for-precision/ Also looks like they're building both platforms,Armalite AR10 and DPMS.

 

[Thorax]

Re: Noveske AR-10

There was not a single answer in the thread I posted....not one.

Oh there were links....but neither of those links provide a single iota of data on which brand upper fits which brand lower.

OK, it's easy to say that a DPMS upper will not work with the Noveske Armalite style barrel.
Do you know more than that....as in WHY ?
What are the exact dimensional differences ?

Ah....so you don't know.
The links you provided will not even come within 600 miles of an answer.
You did bother to check for pertinance....right ?

I've set back more than my share of barrels, rechambered, reamed, faced and crowned piles upon piles of them.
I'm not too proud to admit that I am not good enough to make my own barrel.

I'll also let you know that I'm usually a bolt rifle kind of person.
I also prefer revolvers to semi auto pistols.
If you get in the shit you know reliability is much more important than being able to put rounds down the barrel a bit quicker.

Go google up where Noveske barrels have been on a Camp Perry long range high power winning rifle and then I MIGHT consider them worthy of use....but untill then it is Schneider or Lilja on every centerfire rifle I own.

BTW, since a 308 is so inherently accurate....a garden hose will do 1 inch groups at 100 yards.
Show me the 2 and 3 inch groups at 1000 yards.
If you can do that... http://www.riflebarrels.com/winners/1000yards.htm
with a Noveske, I MIGHT consider one.

 

[Badshot308]

Re: Noveske AR-10

You're a troll, get lost.

 

[Thorax]

Re: Noveske AR-10

I'm asking you directly for info or proof.

That is not trolling.
Calling someone a troll and having zero correct or related info is trolling .

Thanks for playing though.

"Monte, tell our contestant what he's won today"

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Noveske AR-10

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: widnerkj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, I'm jumping in... Feet first. I've got to get myself an AR-10, and I sort of have a plan. I'm just a little confused. I know I want to use a Noveske 21" Barrel, and I'd like to use the Iron Ridge upper & lower (because of the 23 MOA machined into the upper). But I'm reading the Noveske barrel is specifically for Armalite patterned upper recievers. I'd like to do it DMPS on account of me being partial to magpul magazines. Are the uppers diffrent? I thought the lowers were just slightly diffrent.
Any help / ridicule / jeers will be appreciated. </div></div>

Here is what I would suggest you do:

Instead of getting hung up on names and cool parts, define the role that this rifle needs to fill.

What range will it be used at.
What projectile do you need to send to the target?
What IS the target?
What optics do you plan to equip it with?

Then you can design a rifle that will meet that goal.

I am guessing from reading your post that you are not quite sure what system/parts is best for what. That's not a big deal and it's why you need to ask questions. For one, the added cant of the IRA upper may not be needed for certain scope/load/range combinations. Certain magazines will be less suited to certain bullets (due to COL). Certain bullets will require a faster or slower twist barrel.

We can go on and on.

Mission drives the equipment. Not the other way around.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Noveske AR-10

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Thorax</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They are different and incompatible.</div></div>

Incorrect.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Thorax</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You'll find the receiver threads and the tube receptical for the barrel to not fit the Noveske.
Noveske has no fit clauses all over the ar10/p308 stuff they sell.</div></div>

The Receiver threads are NOT on the barrel. An AR10 barrel will fit into a DMPS upper. I have checked the measurements. Have you?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Thorax</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You'd be better off with a Kreiger/Douglas/Lilja/Schneider/Shilen barrel anyways since they have more than 2 years experience in making barrels.</div></div>

Until you are in the upper .001% of shooters you will more than likely see no difference in practical accuracy between the top tier of barrel makers.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Thorax</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was wanting to build a 308 myself but have found brick walls every where I looked for information....either no one knows, or they feel that you should pay them for what should be free information.
Screw that BS...</div></div>

Apparently you didn't look hard enough. I paid not a dollar for any of the information I used to build my AR10. Most were happy to give whatever info they had.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Thorax</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why should I support a company with my hard earned dollars if they cannot tell me thier own product will, or will not, fit without issues ?</div></div>

Seems to me you may not have been asking the right questions. I would think that if you had the skill to program a CNC you would be able to bust out the calipers and do some measuring. Or you could try not coming off like a total ass and ask some of us who have the parts in hand to do some measuring for you.

Of course if you look for more than ten minutes you may find the thread where I already posted measurements including headspace with the bolts mixed and matched.

Now I will post a caveat. I have not assembled and fired a Armalite/DPMS Mutt. I have only test fit the parts. If you DON'T know what you are doing, leave it alone. Since I was working with one owned rifle and one borrowed rifle I did not have the luxury of risking even minor damage.

 

[widnerkj]

Re: Noveske AR-10

Well, I talked with my brother a bit about it. And he thinks I'm sort of wasteing my time on persueing an AR-10. He said I should just take his PTR-91 next time I go home because he's a lefty and it's WAY too right handed for him. Thanks for the info guys, and I'll probally do one up in the next two years or so. I have to find a better place to live, and find some good ranges in the meantime.

 

[ORD]

Re: Noveske AR-10

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: widnerkj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, I talked with my brother a bit about it. And he thinks I'm sort of wasteing my time on persueing an AR-10. He said I should just take his PTR-91 next time I go home because he's a lefty and it's WAY too right handed for him. Thanks for the info guys, and I'll probally do one up in the next two years or so. I have to find a better place to live, and find some good ranges in the meantime. </div></div>

DOH!!!

I respectfully disagree with your brother re: your "wasting" your time on an AR-10. You might as well be comparing apples to groundhogs when comparing the AR-10 platform rifles to the G3/HK-91 clones. The PTR-91 rifles are excellent "battle rifle" clones. They ones I have shot have been extremely reliable with a wide range of ammunition and usually capable of sub-2MOA accuracy with decent ammo/shooter (NOT foreign mil surplus, etc.). With a good trigger job (Williams or Springfield) and optics, they are capable of slightly better than that. BUT...they will never be close to what a quality AR-10/LR-308 build can do in terms of accuracy. If it gets you some trigger time to practice and you enjoy shooting it...that is all that matters. Just don't expect too much from it or as much as you can get from the AR-10.

 

[widnerkj]

Re: Noveske AR-10

No, no, I'm not giveing up on the idea. I'm just putting it on the backburner for a little while. I've got a plan, and I need to spend some time putting away cash for it. (I do have 2 grendel's to build soon as I'm stateside again.) I've pretty much decided I'm going to run an Armalite profile rifle. There seems to be a little better support that route. As I'm not a big dpms fan. I figure in a few months I'll be getting on backorders for pieces of the rifle.

 

[widnerkj]

Re: Noveske AR-10

I am sold on the Noveske kool aid. I've played with a few H&K's and I'm a sucker for the polygonal rifleing. and 21" is about right for my idea of a .308 I don't plan to shoot 1k anytime soon, and if i do, that grendel should be the hot ticket.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Noveske AR-10

You didn't really read what I posted above did you?

 

[widnerkj]

Re: Noveske AR-10

Oh i did LoneWolf, I'm figureing this will be for working the 300m - 800m as it is a little difficult to find a longer range for the time being. I figure 21" is ideal for hunting, and goofing off. I do have a Winchester model 100, but it's a carbine, and has a 16" (I'm pretty sure) it's not terribly accurate, but it does shoot minute of deer. I really want to build up an AR-10 that shoots FAR above my own ability for the time being. I'm feeling 168 grain ish. for mostly shooting steel and paper terrorists for the time being. I'm not up on my own ability to compete, as i've been deployed for a year and have seen my rifle twice. yuck! and before that, I was living in the peoples republic of kalifornia, so not much range time out in San Diego. I'm recovering though. Will soon be out where I can shoot all the time when not working. (crosses fingers)

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Noveske AR-10

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: widnerkj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I figure 21" is ideal for hunting, and goofing off.</div></div>

Really it's not. An AR10 with a Noveske 21" is a pig of a rifle. It's not going to swing quick and it's not something you want to tromp around the woods with.

The 21" barrel is complete overkill for 600-800 and the 1:10 twist is optimized for the heavier projectiles (175-190 SMK). It will shoot 168 Gold Metal Match fine, but it's not what it was designed for.

For YOUR requirements I would go with the 16" or 18" Noveske. Length has little to do with accuracy. It has more to do with velocity, but velocity don't mean much if you are so tuckered out carrying it that you can't get it up on target. I doubt you are going to be taking game at 800 yards, and the 18" barrel will still have enough at that range to put something in the pot. I would also stick with 175gr Sierra Match Kings for general accuracy shooting. There is no reason to put 168 Sierras through that barrel.

I enjoy my 21" Noveske, but I built it to push the envelope of what a semi-auto can do. It's not a walking around in the woods rifle.

 

[ORD]

Re: Noveske AR-10

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 21" barrel is complete overkill for 600-800 and the 1:10 twist is optimized for the heavier projectiles (175-190 SMK). It will shoot 168 Gold Metal Match fine, but it's not what it was designed for.

For YOUR requirements I would go with the 16" or 18" Noveske. Length has little to do with accuracy. It has more to do with velocity, but velocity don't mean much if you are so tuckered out carrying it that you can't get it up on target. I doubt you are going to be taking game at 800 yards, and the 18" barrel will still have enough at that range to put something in the pot.</div></div>

This is sage advice! For your stated purposes, a 21" barrel is overkill. Once you get it equipped with optics, a loaded mag, any other accessories like a bipod, etc., you are looking at a minimum of around a 12.5lb rifle if not more. I have a 16" LW barreled AR-10 with a 1:11.25 twist and it is about the ideal balance for a hunting rifle. It is hell on deer out to over 400yds (furthest I have taken one with it) and it hammers 12" steel plates at 600yds. I run everything from 155gr Scenars to 175gr SMKs through mine and all are extremely accurate. For hunting, the Barnes 168gr TSX and TTSX loads work very well. I have not shot mine further than 600yds, but I have every faith and confidence in the rifle's ability to accurately reach targets well beyond that range, especially with my 155gr Scenar loads that recapture some of the MV lost to the shorter barrel and also have a very high BC. Also, on the positive side, with a VLTOR EMOD collapsible stock, ERGO grip, 4x optics and loaded 5rnd hunting mag, mine weighs in at right at 10lbs. Not light by hunting rifle standards...but not nearly as heavy/long as an AR-10 with an extra 5" of barrel, etc.

Like LoneWolf said...barrel length and accuracy don't have anything to do with each other. A quality barrel (like the Noveske bbls) will achieve accuracy regardless of how short you cut it (within reason), but at the expense of MV!

 

[fastford]

Re: Noveske AR-10

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Thorax</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They are different and incompatible.</div></div>

Incorrect.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Thorax</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You'll find the receiver threads and the tube receptical for the barrel to not fit the Noveske.
Noveske has no fit clauses all over the ar10/p308 stuff they sell.</div></div>

The Receiver threads are NOT on the barrel. An AR10 barrel will fit into a DMPS upper. I have checked the measurements. Have you?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Thorax</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You'd be better off with a Kreiger/Douglas/Lilja/Schneider/Shilen barrel anyways since they have more than 2 years experience in making barrels.</div></div>

Until you are in the upper .001% of shooters you will more than likely see no difference in practical accuracy between the top tier of barrel makers.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Thorax</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was wanting to build a 308 myself but have found brick walls every where I looked for information....either no one knows, or they feel that you should pay them for what should be free information.
Screw that BS...</div></div>

Apparently you didn't look hard enough. I paid not a dollar for any of the information I used to build my AR10. Most were happy to give whatever info they had.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Thorax</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why should I support a company with my hard earned dollars if they cannot tell me thier own product will, or will not, fit without issues ?</div></div>

Seems to me you may not have been asking the right questions. I would think that if you had the skill to program a CNC you would be able to bust out the calipers and do some measuring. Or you could try not coming off like a total ass and ask some of us who have the parts in hand to do some measuring for you.

Of course if you look for more than ten minutes you may find the thread where I already posted measurements including headspace with the bolts mixed and matched.

Now I will post a caveat. I have not assembled and fired a Armalite/DPMS Mutt. I have only test fit the parts. If you DON'T know what you are doing, leave it alone. Since I was working with one owned rifle and one borrowed rifle I did not have the luxury of risking even minor damage. </div></div>


you beat me to it!! LOL

 

[widnerkj]

Re: Noveske AR-10

I understand what you guys are telling me. And I'm takeing it to heart, just working out ideas in my head. this forum is here for you expirianced folk to keep me from makeing an expinsive (and possibly for sale shortly thereafter) mistake. I kind of doubt i'll trek around the woods looking for game with an "AR-10" platform, I like to tell myself I can if need be. But between the old winchester, and the Marlin 45-70 really is my first go to gun for hikeing the woods. (405 grain solids prove to be good medicine at reasonable distance) I've got the two good compromises for hunting rifles. I do love the AR platform, and it's inherient accuracy if you do your part. Double so if you are putting it together. (Take your time and use good parts) Someday when i get to devote plenty of time to the range I want to compete in Tactical / 3 gun matches, but for now, I really like having abnormal oddities from the realm of Firearms. Don't think me a troll, or someone who ignores all advice, I'm still learning, and strive to learn more every day. And I have the desire to learn to work out to 1k, but for now, I'm happy ringing a 10" gong at 375 with irons and my old weak eyes.

 

[CHEYTAC]

Re: Noveske AR-10

You should have to fill out a application and be approved to post on this site. Good grief,

 

[widnerkj]

Re: Noveske AR-10

lol too funny. just a weird night at work here