Nuisance inside case neck burrs

[brassgoblin]

Hey guys, a bit long winded but I believe in fully describing a topic or issue to prevent un-needed confusion or conversation.

I've got a re-occurring issue on my brass, of which, I have the culprit figured out but am looking for advice on the best way to remedy the effected cases.

I've got a pretty heavy inside and outside burrs that forms on the necks after wet tumbling. I'm fairly confident this is because i'm wet tumbling not once but twice. Once with dirty fired cases before re-sizing and once again after re-sizing to get the lube off. I've tried limiting the tumbler time to only an hour to see if it helped, hasn't really made a difference. Basically the case mouths are getting peened or rounded over from what I can only assume is excessive tumbling in my wet tumbler, this jives with my curious lack of needing to trim.

This burr effects my ability to expand my necks via a mandrel, as my only contact surface is the burr itself.

The burr is heavy enough that when I trim on my Henderson trimmer the inside & outside chamfer cut by the Henderson cutter isn't enough to remove the burrs completely. Easily felt with a feeler tool or fingernail. Experimenting, I ran the case over a VLD chamfer tool incrementally until the burr was gone, this leaves a knife-like edge on the case mouth which, while getting rid of my burr, it also made the case primed to peen over again in the tumbler.

I attached a picture of a fired case the has the inside burr still. It may be tough to see, i'm not sure. But even on a fired case I cannot insert a bullet until I cut away the burr. Which gets me back into the knife-edge scenario. Obviously this is negatively effecting consistency and I can feel it seating my bullets.

SO My question is, what would be the best route to cut away the burrs and my 500+ piece's of brass from this lot that have it? Without re-creating the problem down the road during the next tumbling. I was thinking an LE wilson reamer would do the job, especially since I've already got on of their trimmers and all the case holders to go with it. Any advice is welcomed. Thanks in advance!

 

[rustyinbend]

Please tell me you're "NOT" using steel pins when you wet-tumble ...

 

[cooper_257]

use a vibratory tumbler with dry media and you won't have to deal with that. wet tumbling gets the brass to clean on the inside and makes for less consistent loads.

 

[rustyinbend]

use a vibratory tumbler with dry media and you won't have to deal with that. wet tumbling gets the brass to clean on the inside and makes for less consistent loads.

Couldn't disagree more ... but I will defend your right to hold those misguided opinions to my last gasping breath.

 

[rustyinbend]

Hey guys, a bit long winded but I believe in fully describing a topic or issue to prevent un-needed confusion or conversation.

I've got a re-occurring issue on my brass, of which, I have the culprit figured out but am looking for advice on the best way to remedy the effected cases.

I've got a pretty heavy inside and outside burrs that forms on the necks after wet tumbling. I'm fairly confident this is because i'm wet tumbling not once but twice. Once with dirty fired cases before re-sizing and once again after re-sizing to get the lube off. I've tried limiting the tumbler time to only an hour to see if it helped, hasn't really made a difference. Basically the case mouths are getting peened or rounded over from what I can only assume is excessive tumbling in my wet tumbler, this jives with my curious lack of needing to trim.

This burr effects my ability to expand my necks via a mandrel, as my only contact surface is the burr itself.

The burr is heavy enough that when I trim on my Henderson trimmer the inside & outside chamfer cut by the Henderson cutter isn't enough to remove the burrs completely. Easily felt with a feeler tool or fingernail. Experimenting, I ran the case over a VLD chamfer tool incrementally until the burr was gone, this leaves a knife-like edge on the case mouth which, while getting rid of my burr, it also made the case primed to peen over again in the tumbler.

I attached a picture of a fired case the has the inside burr still. It may be tough to see, i'm not sure. But even on a fired case I cannot insert a bullet until I cut away the burr. Which gets me back into the knife-edge scenario. Obviously this is negatively effecting consistency and I can feel it seating my bullets.

SO My question is, what would be the best route to cut away the burrs and my 500+ piece's of brass from this lot that have it? Without re-creating the problem down the road during the next tumbling. I was thinking an LE wilson reamer would do the job, especially since I've already got on of their trimmers and all the case holders to go with it. Any advice is welcomed. Thanks in advance!

Can we have some details about the tumbler? Tumbler brand ... caliber ... soap used ... pins/no-pins ... drying method ...
I wet-tumble (no pins) after decapping for 90 minutes, and then again after sizing for 60 minutes ... in my Frankford Arsenal wet tumbler using the FA brass-cleaning packets ... and I get nothing remotely resembling what you're describing. My stuff comes out clean, unmodified, and ready to load. There's something going on here that we're missing ...

 

[Evintos]

You might have to order a custom size from LE Wilson if the reamer OD and case ID don't match up well.

 

[cooper_257]

Couldn't disagree more ... but I will defend your right to hold those misguided opinions to my last gasping breath.

when I can get single digit E's and SD with consistent seating pressure I don't see the need of all the hassle of wet tumbling and having to dry your brass. I would rather spend my time shooting more than making pretty ammo. You should probably go get a manicure to go along with your wet tumbled perfectly clean brass.

 

[simonp]

I wet tumble after sizing to clean off lube and whatever else the brass may have picked up along the way but never with pins and usually only 15-30 minutes.

Even my first wet tumble when the brass is dirty for 90-120 minutes with pins doesn't have that effect on the brass, something is amiss here.

 

[straightshooter1]

Hey guys, a bit long winded but I believe in fully describing a topic or issue to prevent un-needed confusion or conversation.

I've got a re-occurring issue on my brass, of which, I have the culprit figured out but am looking for advice on the best way to remedy the effected cases.

I've got a pretty heavy inside and outside burrs that forms on the necks after wet tumbling. I'm fairly confident this is because i'm wet tumbling not once but twice. Once with dirty fired cases before re-sizing and once again after re-sizing to get the lube off. I've tried limiting the tumbler time to only an hour to see if it helped, hasn't really made a difference. Basically the case mouths are getting peened or rounded over from what I can only assume is excessive tumbling in my wet tumbler, this jives with my curious lack of needing to trim.

This burr effects my ability to expand my necks via a mandrel, as my only contact surface is the burr itself.

The burr is heavy enough that when I trim on my Henderson trimmer the inside & outside chamfer cut by the Henderson cutter isn't enough to remove the burrs completely. Easily felt with a feeler tool or fingernail. Experimenting, I ran the case over a VLD chamfer tool incrementally until the burr was gone, this leaves a knife-like edge on the case mouth which, while getting rid of my burr, it also made the case primed to peen over again in the tumbler.

I attached a picture of a fired case the has the inside burr still. It may be tough to see, i'm not sure. But even on a fired case I cannot insert a bullet until I cut away the burr. Which gets me back into the knife-edge scenario. Obviously this is negatively effecting consistency and I can feel it seating my bullets.

SO My question is, what would be the best route to cut away the burrs and my 500+ piece's of brass from this lot that have it? Without re-creating the problem down the road during the next tumbling. I was thinking an LE wilson reamer would do the job, especially since I've already got on of their trimmers and all the case holders to go with it. Any advice is welcomed. Thanks in advance!

You could simply add a step in your process to chamfer/deburr those cases before trimming using a chamfering tool that has something like a 15° cut (like this one).

Then in the future, you might consider modifying how you wet tumble. That peening of the case mouths is the result of the cases banging against each other (not a result of any media you may be using). That can be mitigated by limiting the amount of time they're being tumbled and being sure you have enough water and/or media to soften the banging going on. Unless the brass is really, really dirty (like they're being ejected into mud or dirt that's clinging to the inside), you really don't need to tumble them for very long. Using HOT HOT water with Dawn and the proper amount of Lemishine, tumbling them for 20-30 minutes is more than enough time and limits the amount of peening going on (been there done that). In fact, this hot water solution just in a bucket with a little bit of sloshing with your hands can do the job too.

 

[brassgoblin]

Can we have some details about the tumbler? Tumbler brand ... caliber ... soap used ... pins/no-pins ... drying method ...
I wet-tumble (no pins) after decapping for 90 minutes, and then again after sizing for 60 minutes ... in my Frankford Arsenal wet tumbler using the FA brass-cleaning packets ... and I get nothing remotely resembling what you're describing. My stuff comes out clean, unmodified, and ready to load. There's something going on here that we're missing ...

Interesting. I do it almost exactly as you do except I use dawn and lemishine. I do typically use pins during both tumbling's but have experimented with no pins on the second tumbling during troubleshooting of this issue and gotten the same result. Drying method is in the oven at 150 degrees

 

[brassgoblin]

You might have to order a custom size from LE Wilson if the reamer OD and case ID don't match up well.

Luckily they do. I Think this may be the best remedy for the effected cases

 

[brassgoblin]

You could simply add a step in your process to chamfer/deburr those cases before trimming using a chamfering tool that has something like a 15° cut (like this one).

Then in the future, you might consider modifying how you wet tumble. That peening of the case mouths is the result of the cases banging against each other (not a result of any media you may be using). That can be mitigated by limiting the amount of time they're being tumbled and being sure you have enough water and/or media to soften the banging going on. Unless the brass is really, really dirty (like they're being ejected into mud or dirt that's clinging to the inside), you really don't need to tumble them for very long. Using HOT HOT water with Dawn and the proper amount of Lemishine, tumbling them for 20-30 minutes is more than enough time and limits the amount of peening going on (been there done that). In fact, this hot water solution just in a bucket with a little bit of sloshing with your hands can do the job too.

Agreed. Were pretty much using a very similar method tumbling, however, I think you may be onto something with the amount of water. I hadnt thought of that yet. I usually leave about the top 2" of the tumbler empty to allow for more case agitation. But never thought to add more to decrease the violence of the tumbling. Great idea, I'll give it a try and report back.

As for the tool you linked. I've tried that, as mentioned in the original post. The burr is so heavy that in order for me to cut it completely away i effectively make a knifes edge on the mouth. Which is making it even easier for the mouth to peen over when tumbling again.

 

[Bd1]

Agreed. Were pretty much using a very similar method tumbling, however, I think you may be onto something with the amount of water. I hadnt thought of that yet. I usually leave about the top 2" of the tumbler empty to allow for more case agitation. But never thought to add more to decrease the violence of the tumbling. Great idea, I'll give it a try and report back.

As for the tool you linked. I've tried that, as mentioned in the original post. The burr is so heavy that in order for me to cut it completely away i effectively make a knifes edge on the mouth. Which is making it even easier for the mouth to peen over when tumbling again.

Your wet tumbler doesn’t have a baffle inside it that causes the cases to get picked up and dropped does it?. With mine the cases just sit in the down side and the pins wash around them.

 

[memilanuk]

Your wet tumbler doesn’t have a baffle inside it that causes the cases to get picked up and dropped does it?. With mine the cases just sit in the down side and the pins wash around them.

They don't necessarily need baffles for that to happen.

I have a Thumler's Tumbler... enough .223 Rem cases, and they just kind of churn - you almost can't leave them long enough to damage the mouths. A few .338LM cases, and they ride up and fall back down, peening the everloving crap out of the mouths in short order.

 

[rustyinbend]

I'm missing something here ... cuz I wet tumble for 90 minutes pre-sizing, and 60 minutes post-sizing (to remove lube), sometimes with a very full (hundreds of cases) Frankford Arsenal wet tumbler (no pins) using FA's little brass soap packette thingies ... dried for ~3 hours in my FA brass dryer ... and my brass comes out shiny clean with zero peening, neck issues, or any other problems ... and cleanup takes about 60 seconds once I've rinsed my cleaned brass. I obviously stumbled across a great solution (for me) very early in my reloading career, as this has worked for me for "years".

In case anybody cares ... my full process is:

1. Decap (Lee Universal Decapping Die)
2. Clean / Dry (FA Tumbler and Dryer - 90 minutes)
3. Anneal (AMP)
4. Lube (Imperial for small loads / One Shot for large loads)
5. FL Size (Reading Type-S Bushing Die w/ bushings from SAC)
6. Clean / Dry (FA Tumbler and Dryer - 60 minutes)
7. Trim if necessary (Henderson) (Chamfer and Deburr along for the ride)
8. If no Trim necessary - Chamfer and Deburr
9. Brush Necks
10. Add Neolube #2 to inside of necks
11. Mandrel (21st Century)
12. Primers
13. Powder Charge
14. Seat Bullets (AMP Press)

One thing I've learned that has surprised me ... is that the "Mandrel" step (a) going "last" in the brass prep process, and (b) using residual Neolube #2 from Step #10 ... gives me a righteous seating force curve on my AMP Press. Moving the Mandrel step to any earlier place in the process (like prior to the second cleaning for instance) ... directly and negatively impacts the consistency of my seating force. Having the AMP Press makes that measurable ... which is really nice. So much of my work in the past was a "guess" regarding neck tension and seating force until I got my AMP Press.

Obviously ... this is shared with the caveat that it works for "me", but "you" should do whatever works for you.

 

[rustyinbend]

when I can get single digit E's and SD with consistent seating pressure I don't see the need of all the hassle of wet tumbling and having to dry your brass. I would rather spend my time shooting more than making pretty ammo. You should probably go get a manicure to go along with your wet tumbled perfectly clean brass.

I like pedicures WAY better than manicures ... but a "mani/pedi" day is good too.

 

[memilanuk]

So much of my work in the past was a "guess" regarding neck tension and seating force until I got my AMP Press.

Now for the million dollar question... do you *shoot* any better for obsessing over the trace lines on your AMP press?

 

[Cascade Hemi]

I stopped wet tumbling. It isn't worth all of the extra steps and complication.

 

[rustyinbend]

Now for the million dollar question... do you *shoot* any better for obsessing over the trace lines on your AMP press?

I feel like I am ... my SD's are shrinking a bit, and my long distance hits (over 1,000 yards) have improved in my local distance matches every month. That said, it could just be a steady refinement of literally "everything" that I obsess over. I have Parkinson's, so the meticulous nature of the reloading "quest for unobtainable perfection" is really good for my small motor skills. For me, it's more about the "journey" than it is about any potential "destination". Plus ... I'm retired and this is my favorite hobby, so I have no problem investing in the time to chase the numbers. Thanks for asking ... it's a valid question. The short answer is (a) maybe, and (b) but I'm enjoying the attempt.

 

[Cardboard Assassin]

I'm missing something here ... cuz I wet tumble for 90 minutes pre-sizing, and 60 minutes post-sizing (to remove lube), sometimes with a very full (hundreds of cases) Frankford Arsenal wet tumbler (no pins) using FA's little brass soap packette thingies ... dried for ~3 hours in my FA brass dryer ... and my brass comes out shiny clean with zero peening, neck issues, or any other problems ... and cleanup takes about 60 seconds once I've rinsed my cleaned brass. I obviously stumbled across a great solution (for me) very early in my reloading career, as this has worked for me for "years".

In case anybody cares ... my full process is:

1. Decap (Lee Universal Decapping Die)
2. Clean / Dry (FA Tumbler and Dryer - 90 minutes)
3. Anneal (AMP)
4. Lube (Imperial for small loads / One Shot for large loads)
5. FL Size (Reading Type-S Bushing Die w/ bushings from SAC)
6. Clean / Dry (FA Tumbler and Dryer - 60 minutes)
7. Trim if necessary (Henderson) (Chamfer and Deburr along for the ride)
8. If no Trim necessary - Chamfer and Deburr
9. Brush Necks
10. Add Neolube #2 to inside of necks
11. Mandrel (21st Century)
12. Primers
13. Powder Charge
14. Seat Bullets (AMP Press)

One thing I've learned that has surprised me ... is that the "Mandrel" step (a) going "last" in the brass prep process, and (b) using residual Neolube #2 from Step #10 ... gives me a righteous seating force curve on my AMP Press. Moving the Mandrel step to any earlier place in the process (like prior to the second cleaning for instance) ... directly and negatively impacts the consistency of my seating force. Having the AMP Press makes that measurable ... which is really nice. So much of my work in the past was a "guess" regarding neck tension and seating force until I got my AMP Press.

Obviously ... this is shared with the caveat that it works for "me", but "you" should do whatever works for you.

This looks a LOT like my process except I use pins and only clean for 60 minutes both times.

I also dont chamfer and deburr but I think I need to start. I find the case mouths get peened (its just barely perceivable but I suspect my 6BR chamber has a tight neck so that lip at the case mouth occasionally causes issues when trying to chamber - makes getting the round in the last little bit and closing the bolt hard).

I have a Giraud so I can easily trim but so far I haven't had to based on measurements as the cases haven't grown (~4 firings).

So for chamfer / deburr do you use a hand tool and if so how can you ensure consistency (ie how to avoid more material removal on one case than another?) Also if you chamfer / deburr every time doesn't it slowly make the neck shorter and shorter (based on the fact I'm not seeing any growth anyways)?

 

[Cardboard Assassin]

I feel like I am ... my SD's are shrinking a bit, and my long distance hits (over 1,000 yards) have improved in my local distance matches every month. That said, it could just be a steady refinement of literally "everything" that I obsess over. I have Parkinson's, so the meticulous nature of the reloading "quest for unobtainable perfection" is really good for my small motor skills. For me, it's more about the "journey" than it is about any potential "destination". Plus ... I'm retired and this is my favorite hobby, so I have no problem investing in the time to chase the numbers. Thanks for asking ... it's a valid question. The short answer is (a) maybe, and (b) but I'm enjoying the attempt.

More data never hurts. I would imagine the AMP press would make it easy to spot outliers from the norm (which could cause unexpected results on target).

So how do you use it? Do you let the press do its thing and keep an eye on the result and ensure it has trended similar to the other rounds? If you find a round that is very different does that get identified and kept as a sighter or similar?

 

[Cardboard Assassin]

They don't necessarily need baffles for that to happen.

I have a Thumler's Tumbler... enough .223 Rem cases, and they just kind of churn - you almost can't leave them long enough to damage the mouths. A few .338LM cases, and they ride up and fall back down, peening the everloving crap out of the mouths in short order.

I find similar.

On my 223 or 556 cases for example I never notice peening, but on my 6BR it's definitely an issue.

Softer brass maybe (IVI vs Lapua)?

 

[rustyinbend]

So for chamfer / deburr do you use a hand tool and if so how can you ensure consistency (ie how to avoid more material removal on one case than another?) Also if you chamfer / deburr every time doesn't it slowly make the neck shorter and shorter (based on the fact I'm not seeing any growth anyways)?

My Henderson Trimmer does the chamfer/deburr by design, and works great, so all I need is to brush the neck. When I don't trim, I use a hand-tool with a drill-holder (see photo) and a hand drill on low-speed. I (unscientifically) give it just a second or two (until it feels smooth) on the chamfer tool to give myself a nice edge, but not take off too much brass. I've measured pre and post-chamfer and the case length difference is either "zero" or "almost zero". I can see how someone with a drill and an overexuberant desire to give a great chamfer ... could over do this technique, but I'm pretty careful ... probably ends up being less than 10 revolutions.

 

[rustyinbend]

More data never hurts. I would imagine the AMP press would make it easy to spot outliers from the norm (which could cause unexpected results on target).

So how do you use it? Do you let the press do its thing and keep an eye on the result and ensure it has trended similar to the other rounds? If you find a round that is very different does that get identified and kept as a sighter or similar?

That's literally "exactly" what I do. Two primary uses ... (1) identify outliers and use them as barrel-warmers and sighters, and (2) verify that I'm hitting my target seating force and getting consistency from my processes upstream.

I didn't realize just how "off" my guess was on my seating force and neck tension ... until I got my AMP Press.

Mostly though, I'm a "Gadget Guy" and if I can find (or make up) a justification to get that next "cool gadget" ... I will.

 

[memilanuk]

Mostly though, I'm a "Gadget Guy" and if I can find (or make up) a justification to get that next "cool gadget" ... I will.

Guilty as charged

Every once in a while I shake it off and dial things back a bit. Maybe.

 

[rustyinbend]

Guilty as charged

Every once in a while I shake it off and dial things back a bit. Maybe.

Dude ... I've got an AMP Annealer, an AMP Press, a Henderson Power Trimmer, a Labradar, and about every measurement tool you can think of. AND ... my Garmin Xero Chronograph is on the UPS truck for delivery today. I'm not sure I know how to "... dial things back ...". Clearly my "dial" is malfunctioning.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Dude ... I've got an AMP Annealer, an AMP Press, a Henderson Power Trimmer, a Labradar, and about every measurement tool you can think of. AND ... my Garmin Xero Chronograph is on the UPS truck for delivery today. I'm not sure I know how to "... dial things back ...". Clearly my "dial" is malfunctioning.

Do you have a couple of Dillon presses?

 

[rustyinbend]

Do you have a couple of Dillon presses?

No ... but I have a couple of Reading Presses (Big-Boy-II and T7-Turret).
Friends don't let friends buy Progressive Presses for volume reloading.

 

[brassgoblin]

I'm missing something here ... cuz I wet tumble for 90 minutes pre-sizing, and 60 minutes post-sizing (to remove lube), sometimes with a very full (hundreds of cases) Frankford Arsenal wet tumbler (no pins) using FA's little brass soap packette thingies ... dried for ~3 hours in my FA brass dryer ... and my brass comes out shiny clean with zero peening, neck issues, or any other problems ... and cleanup takes about 60 seconds once I've rinsed my cleaned brass. I obviously stumbled across a great solution (for me) very early in my reloading career, as this has worked for me for "years".

In case anybody cares ... my full process is:

1. Decap (Lee Universal Decapping Die)
2. Clean / Dry (FA Tumbler and Dryer - 90 minutes)
3. Anneal (AMP)
4. Lube (Imperial for small loads / One Shot for large loads)
5. FL Size (Reading Type-S Bushing Die w/ bushings from SAC)
6. Clean / Dry (FA Tumbler and Dryer - 60 minutes)
7. Trim if necessary (Henderson) (Chamfer and Deburr along for the ride)
8. If no Trim necessary - Chamfer and Deburr
9. Brush Necks
10. Add Neolube #2 to inside of necks
11. Mandrel (21st Century)
12. Primers
13. Powder Charge
14. Seat Bullets (AMP Press)

One thing I've learned that has surprised me ... is that the "Mandrel" step (a) going "last" in the brass prep process, and (b) using residual Neolube #2 from Step #10 ... gives me a righteous seating force curve on my AMP Press. Moving the Mandrel step to any earlier place in the process (like prior to the second cleaning for instance) ... directly and negatively impacts the consistency of my seating force. Having the AMP Press makes that measurable ... which is really nice. So much of my work in the past was a "guess" regarding neck tension and seating force until I got my AMP Press.

Obviously ... this is shared with the caveat that it works for "me", but "you" should do whatever works for you.

Just out of curiosity, have you found a need or experimented with re-applying neo lube after running the mandrel through the necks? Have you noticed inconsistent striations or removal of the lube inside the necks after running a mandrel?

Otherwise, our loading process looks very similar. I'll be ordering some neo lube though, you've jogged my memory about wanting to try that. I'm sick of the mess and inconsistency of the redding graphite lube.

 

[rustyinbend]

Just out of curiosity, have you found a need or experimented with re-applying neo lube after running the mandrel through the necks? Have you noticed inconsistent striations or removal of the lube inside the necks after running a mandrel?

Otherwise, our loading process looks very similar. I'll be ordering some neo lube though, you've jogged my memory about wanting to try that. I'm sick of the mess and inconsistency of the redding graphite lube.

I tried it both ways, and the results were identical ... with no advantage to the second application of Neolube. So I just figured why do it twice, when once worked great for both mandrel and seating. Now if you move your mandrel step earlier in the process and before cleaning, brushing, or other ... then you'd (obviously) need to do a second pre-seating application. As for me and the results on my AMP Press ... Neolube - Mandrel - Charge - Seat ... in that order, gave me the best results. I got THESE to apply and they work great. All of $10 for 200 of them. I go 1-for-10 ... meaning one "dunk" in the Neolube for every 10 case necks lubed.