OCW vs Ladder...

[Judd]

To prevent jacking the other load development thread.

I read the link and was very taken back at how much sense it appears to me the OCW makes over Ladder testing...the guy broke it down so even a dummy (me) or caveman could understand.

Anyway...what do you do? I have been ladder testing but after reading the article I am thinking an OCW test is what I should be doing. Especially since the place I have to shoot over 200 is 120 miles from my house and the 100/200yd range is SUPER close.

Thanks.

 

[DamnYuppie]

Re: OCW vs Ladder...

I personally found that they both end up at the same load but the ladder test gets me there quicker and with far fewer rounds then OCW.

 

[Cape_hunter]

Re: OCW vs Ladder...

OCW IMHO is just another tool to be used. I prefer it but many dont.

http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/#/ocw-vs-ladder/4529811360

 

[Judd]

Re: OCW vs Ladder...

Cape Hunter that is the exact page I was reading (assuming you posted it on the other page) thanks!

I was just wonder % wise what guys used...ladder vs OCW. Looks like we are at 50/50

 

[TexIndian]

Re: OCW vs Ladder...

I use the ladder, but my range allows me to get out to 500yds if needed. I recently shot a series at 300 yards and all the rounds (10 different charge weights) hit within a 3 inch circle. Kinda hard to get a reading from that. OTOH, if I had been using OCW at 100, I'd have to be a hell of a measurer to tell much difference between the POI of the groups.

 

[eagleskier]

Re: OCW vs Ladder...

For a lot of us I think that it comes down to what range we have available. Since I only have access to a 200 yard range, I use the OCW.

 

[Deadshot2]

Re: OCW vs Ladder...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OldTex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use the ladder, but my range allows me to get out to 500yds if needed. I recently shot a series at 300 yards and all the rounds (10 different charge weights) hit within a 3 inch circle. Kinda hard to get a reading from that. OTOH, if I had been using OCW at 100, I'd have to be a hell of a measurer to tell much difference between the POI of the groups. </div></div>

With either method the longer the range the easier to see the differences in load. My issue with the "Ladder" is that it doesn't take into consideration any error with the load like varying neck tension. The OCW method using 5 round groups tends to negate an error in a single round and with the ladder, that was all you had for that charge weight.

 

[Tripwire]

Re: OCW vs Ladder...

Every time I see this question come up it makes me shake my head in utter amazement.....

What's keeping you from doing both, and comparing the results with an analytical mind to find out for yourself?

Other than available range distance......

I've stuck with OCW for the past 10 years because it works......and loads developed that way have never not performed at distance.

Outstanding load development begins with a quality barrel with the proper twist, a quality bullet, a logical choice of powder/primer/brass, and good equipment to put it all together......not to mention a proficiency in pulling a trigger. Once you've mastered all that, then having questions about the testing method itself seems a little silly.

 

[Deadshot2]

Re: OCW vs Ladder...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
What's keeping you from doing both, and comparing the results with an analytical mind to find out for yourself?

</div></div>

There are a lot of people that want to find that accuracy node using a minimum number of rounds. Either to conserve barrel life or they are "cheapskates" and don't want to fire one more round than necessary. Those are the ones that usually use only the Audette "Ladder".

 

[Rthur]

Re: OCW vs Ladder...

Ladder test @ 300 has worked well in the past. If these results don't give the answers go to the OCW test.

"cheapskates" thats a good one. I always quit looking when I find something. YMMV

 

[yourcfi]

Re: OCW vs Ladder...

I have tried and had sucess with both. 6 in one half dozen in the other. Both worked fine.

 

[TheGonz]

Re: OCW vs Ladder...

I do both. I ladder at.5 gr starting 10% low then once I find the node I ocw the 4 that impact at the node. As with any of the testing, distances past 300 will give you better data. I ocw at 500 for groups at least4 round grps twice. IMO ocw with 3 -4 shots is a waste if you don't ladder first. Obviously you have to shoot well in order to get good results. Shooting in the node is the only way to go and u only need to do that ladder once, then u can play with seating depths and I ladder those also to see if the node changes, rarely does.

 

[Deadshot2]

Re: OCW vs Ladder...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rthur</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
"cheapskates" thats a good one. I always quit looking when I find something. YMMV </div></div>

Same here. I was kind of "poking" at some fellow shooters that are so cheap they even select their powders, not on the basis of how they perform, but on how many rounds per pound they can load from it.

 

[Tomekeuro85]

Re: OCW vs Ladder...

Here's what I did, and it got me a very close to half MOA load out of my factory rem 700 .223.


I did the ladder test at 300... but instead of shooting 10 total rounds I did this:

10 rounds of increasing powder charge and repeated the test 5 times on 5 targets. Each target was a separate ladder test.

I fired the rounds in a random order, some high to low, some low to high, but never 2 in a row on the same target.


So as an example:

First shot- Charge 1 of 10 from row 1 on target A.
Second shot- Charge 10 of 10 from row 2 on target B.
Third shot- Charge 5 of 10 from row 3 on target C
Fourth shot- Charge 10 of 10 from row 4 on target D
Fifth shot- Charge 1 of 10 from row 5 on target E.
Sixth shot- Charge 2 of 10 from row 1 on target A.
Seventh shot- Charge 9 of 10 from row 2 on target B.

So on and so on.

I did that and marked each shot as I went, until I got thru all 50 rounds.

All 5 targets had a result that was close enough to know that was the load I should go with. Doing it just once seems silly to me as it could be a total fluke.

When you get the same result 5 times in a row, especially while randomizing the firing order, it's hard to blame chance.

As you mentioned some "cheapskates" may not want to waste 50 rounds developing a load. But this is better and faster than what I used to do before I learned of the ladder test... Pretty much guess and check.

 

[TwoGun]

Re: OCW vs Ladder...

I think they both have merits. I have read many ideas on the subject and the two that stick with me are German Salazar and Bryan Litz. German was speaking of the problem with fantastic OCW loads that often produce fliers. His experience was that often times what's good for long range score was not the perfect ocw group. What I got from Litz was the problem of finding a particular load the left the barrel when the crown was a circle and not an oval and there are certain powder load combinations that will do that over a wide range of conditions (i.e. .308 FGMM). Now we add in the next variable that while the crown is oscillating from oval to round, the barrel is oscillating in a sine wave of some circular fashion.

Now from what I understand because I'm new to ladder tests is that the optimum is to try have the bullet leave the barrel when it's at 12:00 o'clock in it's oscillation. I'll quote from the second sticky (Powderin' It) in this forum.

<span style="color: #990000">"ENTER THE "NODE." The node is the very top of the wave and very bottom. For ultimate accuracy, you want your bullet exiting the muzzle precisely when it has flexed all the way up, STOPPED [for a nano second] before it begins it journey flexing back down. This is why you had a decent group or two during the ladder test, despite differing powder charges.</span>

And with all luck, the crown will be somewhat round and not oval at that point.

I find the ladder test interesting. I just recently did a 100 yard ladder test (Jered Joplin's advice from the Powderin' It thread) and I think one can find some worthy data in that type of test. I like it because 100 yards is handy especially for public ranges and it takes out some of the atmosphere variable. I did mine a little differently so I could see the wave more clearly across the charge spectrum.

Assuming the most accuracy with the lowest fliers can be achieved with a top node, I think the only way you're going to find that is with a ladder (and perhaps across different powders and bullets). If you're content with sticking to one powder, one bullet, OCW will probably be just fine. 3 different powders with 3 different bullets is a lot of OCW. I think the quicker path would probably be ladder.

 

[Judd]

Re: OCW vs Ladder...

A lot of good info and perspectives, I appreciate it. If I can get a semi calm day I have a couple OCW tests loaded up and will see what happens.

 

[boltgunluvr]

Re: OCW vs Ladder...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deadshot2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rthur</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
"cheapskates" thats a good one. I always quit looking when I find something. YMMV </div></div>

Same here. I was kind of "poking" at some fellow shooters that are so cheap they even select their powders, not on the basis of how they perform, but on how many rounds per pound they can load from it.

</div></div>

People that choose powder based on the # of rds stand a chance of accidentally light loading and......kaboom! Not the sharpest tools in the shed.