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Gunsmithing Odd problem with a new rifle...

M113A3

Sergeant of the Hide
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 18, 2018
168
43
San Francisco
When using either an MDT or Magpul AICS mag (only mags I have) I notice that I have issue closing the bolt. This is more prevalent when the mags are fully loaded. The rounds chamber and the bolt is fully forward but hangs up (very stiff) so I have to use extra force to close the bolt... this goes away the fewer rounds in the mag. This happens without firing a single round when I am just cycling the action to test.

The odd thing is that this does not happen when the mags are unloaded... Thoughts?

General rifle info:
KRG Whiskey 3 Gen 6
Deviant action
 
I'd look at mag height in relation to the action. Sounds like the mag sits high enough for the rounds to cause extra friction. The more rounds in the mag, the greater the pressure from the spring, the more friction you get. Just to figure it out, try spacing the action off the stock some more and see if it goes away.
 
First, use automotive wet-lap or whatever 1000-grit or finer sandpaper you can find to polish the feed lips. This will help some. You don't need to bend them, assuming feeding is otherwise reliable.

Then, try taking the coil spring out of the Magpul mag and use wire twist ties to fasten a couple of coils together, then reassemble the mag. This will reduce pressure in a full magazine.

Does this alleviate your issue? Is feeding improved, especially from a full mag?

If so, you have encountered the same issue as me. You can either leave the Magpul spring coils wired together or cut them. Unfortunately, the MDT mags have leaf springs which are not amenable to wiring - not enough room for the wire when the mag is fully loaded; I know because I tried.

I obtained a couple of MDT's longer, finer springs for their 12-round magazines; cutting a "fold" or two off the longer, finer spring reduced pressure and allowed easier feeding, but still not as slick as the Magpul (the full-length 12-round spring won't fit in a 10-round mag without cutting). It must be acknowledged that brass cartridge cases are going to drag more on the steel mags than on plastic. Polishing the lips helps.

@MDT_Josh, here's another report of stiff feeding with the standard 10-round mag spring. At a recent match, I spoke with several other shooters who are also experiencing overly stiff feeding from MDT 10-rounders, although everyone otherwise appreciates the solid build. However, in fairness to MDT, I must point out that, for me, feeding was too stiff in Magpul and Accurate mags as well as my MDT mags.
 
I have 4 MDT mags and a bunch of AICS.. all of them feed a Deviant just fine.

I am going with the first reply, #2 in this thread. I’ve seen lots of systems have similar issues, then the same mag in another rifle and the once problem mags work great and don’t have excessive drag. I’ve scene it sever enough that the mag catches are hard to lock the mag in. I doesn’t take much for a mag catch to cause these types of issues or a stock bottom bottom metal height issue to do the same.
 
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Thanks guys - I will be looking into all these to smooth things out. Once O get this fixed I will check back in.
 
I have 4 MDT mags and a bunch of AICS.. all of them feed a Deviant just fine.

I am going with the first reply, #2 in this thread. I’ve seen lots of systems have similar issues, then the same mag in another rifle and the once problem mags work great and don’t have excessive drag. I’ve scene it sever enough that the mag catches are hard to lock the mag in. I doesn’t take much for a mag catch to cause these types of issues or a stock bottom bottom metal height issue to do the same.
My issue occurred with a Stiller TAC-30 action in an MPA BA Comp chassis. Mags (all brands) click in easily and actually have a tiny amount of play. I'm certainly not going to "space the action off" the chassis! However, I do have a spare MPA magazine latch I can shorten to "lower" the mags and see if it makes any difference without having the mags flop around excessively in the well - it's all mags that feed stiffly in my rifle, so it would be nice to have a "single source solution" rather than have to modify all my mags (simple though that may be by cutting springs).
 
My issue occurred with a Stiller TAC-30 action in an MPA BA Comp chassis. Mags (all brands) click in easily and actually have a tiny amount of play. I'm certainly not going to "space the action off" the chassis! However, I do have a spare MPA magazine latch I can shorten to "lower" the mags and see if it makes any difference without having the mags flop around excessively in the well - it's all mags that feed stiffly in my rifle, so it would be nice to have a "single source solution" rather than have to modify all my mags (simple though that may be by cutting springs).
Meh, my suggestion takes way less time than installing a new latch and tells you if that's the issue without having to return the old one. It wasn't suggested as a permanent fix if that's how you took it.
 
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My advice: Banding one of the spring coils to another might yield a temporary fix worth trying I’d be curious to know if it does. I haven’t tried to know for sure. Without a doubt it’s pressure from the rounds from what you describe. Feed lip problems cause obvious issues ie binding or extremely stiff closing action. Playing with the feeds lips will do nothing for you as the follower will still be pushing rounds up with same pressure fully loaded and the top round sits higher than the feed lips. Because you describe it getting easier when the magazine has less rounds, and completely gone when empty rules out the feed lips entirely. The proper way to fix this is a light skim bedding job by a gunsmith, or the mag latch height needs to be adjusted. I recommend accurate ordnance. They’ve done this twice for me with Stiller tac30aw actions. Give them a call and they’ll be happy to walk you through it and give some advice either way. They’ve had ridiculously fast tune around times for me too. Great guys! Good luck friend.
 
I have the same issue with MDT's in a MPA and Deviant action. 7 in the mag is fine, 8 - 9 tight, 10 works but rides stupid high. In my case bending the lips does not work - bend them so 8 - 10 ride right makes the others ride too low. I just deal with it on the MDT's since I like the shorter mags. The bolt is not as hard with the magpuls but they are sloppy in the MPA so I don't use them.
 
I have the same issue with MDT's in a MPA and Deviant action. 7 in the mag is fine, 8 - 9 tight, 10 works but rides stupid high. In my case bending the lips does not work - bend them so 8 - 10 ride right makes the others ride too low. I just deal with it on the MDT's since I like the shorter mags. The bolt is not as hard with the magpuls but they are sloppy in the MPA so I don't use them.


Have you tried the mags in another rifle?

I have the MDT mags no issues in all of my rifles, several are Deviants. But the only MDT chassis I have has a Vudoo in it, so I don't want to go thru the hassle to test that combo. I will say though that when at matches you see a lot of people, often there is a guy who can only use "his mags" without issue and it usually because the action/bottom metal or action/chassis spacing is off just a tiny bit. It could be the mag catch or the action height.

If it because of one magazine, toss the mag... but if it is something else it is worth fixing the issue not the symptom.
 
Have you tried the mags in another rifle?

I have the MDT mags no issues in all of my rifles, several are Deviants. But the only MDT chassis I have has a Vudoo in it, so I don't want to go thru the hassle to test that combo. I will say though that when at matches you see a lot of people, often there is a guy who can only use "his mags" without issue and it usually because the action/bottom metal or action/chassis spacing is off just a tiny bit. It could be the mag catch or the action height.

If it because of one magazine, toss the mag... but if it is something else it is worth fixing the issue not the symptom.

Yes, but nobody likes that answer! They work fine in an XLR. Ride height with the MPA appears to be the problem.
 
My issue occurred with a Stiller TAC-30 action in an MPA BA Comp chassis. Mags (all brands) click in easily and actually have a tiny amount of play. I'm certainly not going to "space the action off" the chassis! However, I do have a spare MPA magazine latch I can shorten to "lower" the mags and see if it makes any difference without having the mags flop around excessively in the well - it's all mags that feed stiffly in my rifle, so it would be nice to have a "single source solution" rather than have to modify all my mags (simple though that may be by cutting springs).

My Stiller Action is just terrible... it bind's no matter what is in the Mag. I just don't buy the "oh, you need to change the way you run your bolt" solution either.

But it does take force to run the bolt forward with any mag in and even without a mag. Just not a fan of the Stiller... I think the anti-bind groove is over-engineering that creates the very problem they are trying to solve.
 
A quick update - so with the MDT if I chamber a round and the drop the mad there is a click and the the bolt closes with ease so it is how the mag is seating IMHO. As for the mag itself the feed lips are to tight when combined with the spring tension with 12 rds.

As for the Magpul same things i.e. drop the mag no problem.

Cheers
 
A quick update - so with the MDT if I chamber a round and the drop the mad there is a click and the the bolt closes with ease so it is how the mag is seating IMHO. As for the mag itself the feed lips are to tight when combined with the spring tension with 12 rds.

As for the Magpul same things i.e. drop the mag no problem.

Cheers

Sounds like the lips are higher (looser) on the front than the back of the mag. The magpul is likely solved by sanding the top of the lip down at the front. For the MDT, measure the gap at the front and the back with a caliper. If the front is wider then it is higher than the rear - you can bend them with a pair of bull-nose pliers and some care.
 
Another update... There appears to be two or more issues. (high level)

1) With a fully loaded mag (in this test the magpul 10 rd) as soon as the bolt travels forward the is a springy tension at the very end which requires some force to push forward before I can move the bolt handle into the locked position.

2) With the KRG mag I have been adjusting the feed lips a bit. Wider makes things worse while a little bit narrower helps but it still hangs up when trying to move the bolt forward

3) the mag catch pin keeps walking out

KRG asked be to send the chassis back for them to check it but before I do I plan on calling Defiance about the springy tension after which I will reach out to the gunsmith as well.

Cheers
 
A quick update - I borrowed an AI mag and the issue was not nearly as bad with the AICS mags. So I think this might be a mag issue but there could be some adjustment needed as well. I am likely going to visit the gunsmith to get this sorted.
 
Well the sandpaper tip worked well for the mag issue. The two other issues are the mag has to have a slight forward tilt to insert correctly. I think I need to adjust the chassis... still need to work this out.

Additionally the rear part of the action is shorten for a larger ejection port so if you do not initially push straight forward the bolt can bind up on my deviant tactical... not sure if other folks have this issue?
 
Additionally the rear part of the action is shorten for a larger ejection port so if you do not initially push straight forward the bolt can bind up on my deviant tactical... not sure if other folks have this issue?

Not sure what you are talking about here. Defiance has some of the tightest tolerances of the available actions. So much so that some people avoid them as dust can slow them down quickly. They don't have the kind of play that can cause a bind. My guess is you are having feed ramp / bullet angle issues.
 
It has nothing to do with a dirty action or tolerances. If you look at the rear of the action the initial entry point is shortened to allow for a larger ejection port... this is the area I am talking about.

SH_POST.JPG
 
Ok final update. I spoke to Roy at Defiance who was super helpful and explained that the any pressure on the bolt that does not go straight forward can cause the issue. He suggested that I dry fire and use my thumb on the rear of the bolt to get it going straight forward thus avoiding the issue I am experiencing!

Cheers