Officials vs Range Officers

[Lowlight]

If anyone was listening to the Everyday Sniper Podcast this week, I had a discussion regarding matches and range officers with Caylen.

https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...eat-episode-with-caylen.6961782/#post-7970110

Now quickly, I am not sure what Caylens' plan is for his match when he says, no traditional range officers as we have seen in the past. On this subject, I agree, and over the last year or so I have been thinking about this quite a bit. I see a bunch of matches that either run short on Range Officers, need a metric ton of them or just plain fall down in this area.

It sounds to me Caylen was talking support staff, and I get that, moving around making sure things run right.

Me, I was thinking more of "Officials" as we had in war games during my USMC Days. Think Dirty Dozen and George Kennedy when he was the Observer...

These "Officials" would be your referee during the war games. Like George did during the Capture the Flag game in the Dirty Dozen.

The biggest issue I see is scalability for these events to have the right number of range officers. The current model is one to two ROs at a stage to both Spot and as a Scorekeeper. It sort of pre-establishes the number of range officers and puts them in the mode of scorekeeper more than safety officer. Yet in a typical match, and I will use 100 shooters as a round number, you need at least 2 per stage, which can mean, 20 to 40+ range officers just to manage the event.

If we have a 100 shooters and use 10 squads as an example with 10 shooters each, that is 10 to 1 shooter vs Range Officers. So why not just embed an Observer in a squad? In fact this way, the day before you can actually Shoot the Range Officers in the event with the MD acting as an observer then have a few core guys who are match support follow the single squad to let them shoot the match also while learning the stage to answer any questions. There has to be an incentive, shooting the match you are working is one of those we can offer.

Most matches have booklets detailing the stage, the Observer can go over basic ground rules, and then "Observe" the squad shooting the stage before moving on. They only need a set of binos to verify, or just issue the squad a tripod and Spotter for use. For the most part, he stays out of glass and watches the shooters. On the clock he watches of safety, off the clock he watches for scoring and rules. We have ten experienced guys who can spot and score, he just makes sure it's all above board.

You can even rotate them on two-day events to no one RO is with the same squad all weekend. The hard part would be the MD needs to set the squads up to separate some of the "Teams" so it's not all the same group in a single squad. A bit more variety in who is actually in the squad.

Resource wise, it's a lot less work, match wise it should move better, and you give them the power to Stage DQ shooters for issues. This is the most important part, enforcement has to move beyond a stern talking too, and don't get me wrong I am guilty of it too. Start taxing Points for rules violations. If you want to be NASCAR and you are missing a lug nut at the end of the event, you get taxed for a rules violation.

If you capped matches to 100 shooters and had no more than 10 stages a day, and 10 shooters per squad, that is 10 Range Officers to cover the same ground. You can then have wandering support for other issues, target repair, water replenish, etc. It beats trying to do too much with too many people or too few Range Officers. It becomes a scalable program that can then move beyond the 4 corners of the series. With the number of matches per weekend spread across the country, scalability is the issue. As well this opens up the door to actually do more.

The current model was never scaled, it's the same as what we did in 2003, and 2011, prior to the PRS. The only difference is bigger numbers, more drama and a lot more resources necessary. It's consistent and can be replicated regardless of the layout of the range. It's adaptable, want more shooters, you can still make a squad bigger, or just add a stage and attach a squad too it.

It's not so much self-scoring as squad-based scoring and spotting. You just have an official overseeing it. We have 10 guys in a squad doing nothing but watching either the Shooter or ROs, and then complaining about missed hits or other issues. If you have an official right there he can rule on the spot, and he is not ruling against himself, did that hit, "Never heard it" the Spotter didn't see it, and no-hit was called, I agree" or even, yes I heard it hit, give him the point. Safety can be looked at during transitions because the Official is not watching the steel, he can watch the shooter.

Enforcement again is key, if someone or some squad is caught playing fast and loose with the rules, even a single point fudge should be a 1 year ban from sanctioned competition. End of story, you got caught, you're banned. Sure you can shoot a match, but don't let their score count for anything. You are paying for nothing until the ban is over.

I think using Officials vs Range Officers can solve a lot of issues moving forward, especially considering the number of matches across the US. Plus it helps to have a consistent look across the field. Then. you know what to expect.

 

[FishDr]

Here you are Frank, giving away your valuable advise for free! Is anyone listening???
MDs, PLEASE PAY ATTENTION … school is in session

 

[mahlv]

I like this idea. I shot a lot of 3-d archery over the years, it’s all self scored. There’s always a grumbling about the super squads, umbrella shooters we called them, but an observer/ro would alleviate that quite a bit I’d guess.
Something else that happened on the 2 day shoots is top flight for the guys going for the buckle/trophy. So on Sunday, if you’re Saturday score had you in the top 10-15, then in order for you to compete for awards you had to shoot in the top flight squad on Sunday. Sometimes score started from zero, sometimes both days counted.

 

[Mormegil87]

I like the idea. But if competitors are going to be expected to spot and/or score, specifically at two day events, match fees need to be addressed.

 

[Lowlight]

LOL Match Fees

 

[Mormegil87]

LOL Match Fees

There's a reason I shoot the one day matches. $50 versus $250+. Not counting travel, hotels, food etc. I shoot one two day match a year because it's an hour from my house and the MD does a good job blending field and game stages. Beyond that, they already aren't really worth it.

 

[Lowlight]

of course they are not worth it, the series never scaled or addressed this in any meaningful way. it's the same model as 2003, yet with 2x more people shooting.

The fact they let just anyone host a match, and these stages are on constant repeat, there is no reason to change. You all dictated what you wanted and got what you deserved.

One day matches are much better for that very fact,

 

[mahlv]

I'll elaborate on my '3-d archery' reference, could have been more clear and descriptive if I want to contribute right?

Frank's suggestions are pretty in line with how the 3-d comps were ran as far as scoring being managed by each individual squad. The biggest hangup people had was the possibility of someone undercutting the 'honor system' and pencil whipping their score cards (cheating). Top flighting the squads on the second day seemed to handle that fear pretty effectively IMO. Archery 3-d does not demand as strict of a standard for safety as a rifle match obviously, so the suggestion of an observer or RSO with each squad is a great method to have a Match official that can focus a lot more attention to safety during each squads' execution of a stage. How much time and attention do two or even three RO's have on scoring as opposed to safety these days? No disrespect to any RO's or MD's, honestly if/when I have ever been a spotter or RO, my focus has been eaten up on making sure I see an impact or miss, the safety aspect is sorta taken for granted that we are all looking out for each other.

Top Flights
In these archery shoots, at least the 2-day comps, the Sunday squads were formed with Saturday's top shooters from each class having to shoot together and keep score together on Sunday. Any doubts about the legitimacy of a guy that scored in the top 10 on Saturday were usually put to bed on whether or not he showed up to shoot in the top flight Sunday. I saw some no-shows on more than one occasion, but there were also legitimate reasons for guys to not shoot topflight on Sunday if they chose to not compete for awards (equipment failure, wanted to shoot Sunday with family, etc.).

My "umbrella" shooter and super squad comments have a different meaning than what was conveyed it sounds like. In a lot of the bigger archery comps, there were always a couple of groups of guys packing umbrellas out on the course. Often times, an umbrella would be deployed to deflect wind away from a fellow shooter so he could get steady making the shot, or hiding a hand signal showing the yardage of a target (most shoots were unknown distance), or shading the sun etc... Same gamers, different sport, they're EVERYWHERE!!

So, ya, I do like Frank's idea and I have seen the same premise work pretty well, and I do think it would be effective at rifle comps. The first benefit right off the bat is reducing the number of RO's needed by half or more. It falls along the lines of "this is a hobby, not NASCAR" in that it puts the honor system into the equation, now if prize tables would go away...(dreaming). I think a variation of this would also be something that's scale-able, but big picture stuff eludes my pea brain any more.

 

[Mormegil87]

Again I agree with Frank's idea. That being said the new question becomes: If $250 is already considered expensive, not counting ancillary costs (food, travel, lodging etc.) how are MD's and the different series supposed to get competitors to do their own scores and their own spotting? It's not a big deal at a one day match because the match fee is $50ish, not $225+.

 

[Lowlight]

ROs and Spotters are not paid, how does this have any bearing on the cost?

Managing a prize table is harder and more time consuming, constantly adjusting squads so last-minute buddies can be in the same squad is more time consuming and labor-intensive. Buying tablets, coordinating the weekend, managing all the other things that might go into a weekend is more than standing there and spotting.

You are deflecting away from the actual discussion of managing a match and trying to work with less Range Officers

 

[mahlv]

Agreed RoterJager, the pricing is probably always gonna be like was said somewhere else "we just jacked up the price until the demand fell off a bit, and then backed up a few bucks"

 

[Mormegil87]

I get there is a lot that goes into a match, I donate a ton of my own time helping my local MD with our one day matches and his two day. Not just ROing, but setting targets, getting ranges, cutting lanes etc.

What I'm asking is this:

The current expectation for two day matches is that as a competitor, you pay your $250 and you go shoot the match then go home. You don't have to spot, you don't have to score, you don't have to RO. You pay your $250, you shoot, you leave. If the MD's or series, change the expectation by having competitors RO, spot and/or score. Don't you think that will have an impact on attendance of two day matches? At least in the short term until that expectation becomes the norm?

 

[Lowlight]

I am the one who did it, I admitted it o the podcast,

We were charging $175 for the SH matches at Rifles Only, they were filling up fast and for no reason at all, I pushed the price to $250 and that is where everyone else went and stayed.

I did it because there were only about 6 matches a year across the country, we had $250,000 prize tables and I was bringing in more and more every time, and the matches were sold out in seconds, not even minutes, but seconds, so I looked at Jacob and said $250.

No rhyme, no reason, just because, and frankly it didn't change my bottom line as more was invested in the events, but also because of my arrangement with Rifles Only. I made a fixed amount more or less, so we did it for no other reason than I could and nobody complained.

Fast forward a dozen years, (Literally) and nobody bothered to revisit it. I actually lowered the price of the SH events in Colville, and put in a model to charge the juniors less money, they pay about $150 or so. This was on the series to establish and set the price, but it's a group of individuals who all want their cake and be able to buy beer too so the price was convenient

Nothing is done outside of what the market will bear. What does spending $50k as the Official X of the PRS get you outside of the mention you are that company? The market will pay them $50k in marketing money, yet what is the return on Investment. Everyone wants their money, none can say what it buys.

Full disclosure I have not taken any money from an SH event in 3 years, I have returned 100% of my cut to the shooters since bitching about prize table behavior. I stopped asking for prizes and just give money to the top finishers.

 

[mahlv]

RE: prize table woes....
How did it come to be that the MD has to be the drug pusher for all of these manufacturers? Maybe if a mfg. could require a little more public relations out of their "sponsored shooters", for example, have the sponsored shooter(s) set up a booth along with some of "X" company representatives at each match giving out discounts and/or promoting product. It seems the mold is set, and the poor MD's have to do the death march of all the prep required at a minimum for each match, and THEN also deal with the prize tables.

Could it really come down to "Who needs Who" more?

 

[Lowlight]

Exactly

I have had Pro-Athletes take classes from me who have real money sponsorship who see the loose relationships in the gun world and laugh.

These guys sign contracts, have real responsibilities at events, have after-hour responsibilities, meet and greet, etc, they have to "EARN" the sponsorship, on top of performing.

It's not just a performance-based system, it's more.

Pro-level guys with sponsorship really should not be using the prize table, that should be for new shooters who don 't have access to gear. Pros have access to all sort of stuff and honestly, if you are paying out of pocket, your sponsorship sucks ass.

It's a bunch of superfly nobodies pretending to be something they are not demanding free shit because their real sponsorship is a scam.

And don't get me wrong, I give away far to much shit on my end, to the point where companies will pay smaller websites for advertising and none to me because why would they, they know we will still mention them for free.

 

[Lowlight]

Here is a question,

What is the average number of hours to set up a match, tear it down, and to host a prize table?

How many hours do we think it takes to set up, clean up, tear down and prepare for the match.

With this information, we can then determine the actual costs of competition and how much should be charged for its participation.

Facilities have it a bit easier because it's a permanent structure, field matches often require the targets set up just prior to the match and taken down right after. A place dedicated to PRS type events, like a K&M should be even easier because it's designed around the event and can stay the same from month to month, a lot less work.

but typically what are we seeing for hours or at the very least, what is your understanding of the time it takes to arrange, and then execute a match?

 

[Mormegil87]

Just from personal experience 6-10 for a one day. We don't do prize tables until our season finale so our set up is straight forward, set up targets, get ranges, set props. MD does CoF prior to set up. Then tear down. We've got the actual set up time for our one day matches down to under 3 hours. We can't leave anything in place over the weekend so we've tried to make our set up and take down as efficient as possible. If our MD had to do it all himself, I can't even guess the amount of time it would take.

I'm not even going to bother guessing on the two day matches because I'd be taking a wild ass guess. The match style and how much work has to go into actual site prep (cutting lanes, clearing shooting areas, building props etc.). No idea on the prize table time. From what little I've dealt with the prize table stuff, it seems like a royal PIA.

 

[Lowlight]

If you spent 1 day before and 1 day after, and not including time spent during the match, you have at least 24 hours right off the bat.

24 hours of setting up and tearing down, you have 48 hours for the match, and let's just make it easy and call it 8 hours for admin stuff.

just off the top of my head, you have 80 hours of work.

80 hours divided by $300 = $3.75 per hour.... for just labor.

And trust me, a good MD is obsessing over every little detail for a lot longer.

None of this includes targets, t-posts, paint, tablets, practicsore shit, gas, 4 Wheelers, etc.

 

[Lowlight]

I just asked Phil V how long to set the Gunwerks match this weekend, in setting up he is over 48 hours and that does not include the admin stuff the others are doing for him.

But 2 guys with over 48 hours so far without counting the match weekend.

 

[Mormegil87]

That is the kind of info that needs to be out there.

 

[Lowlight]

It's out there, everyone knows this is the case, nobody wants to talk about it because it's not a,

WHAT ABOUT ME. issue,


All the shooters care about them, what about me,

What about my expenses, what about my time, what about my sponsorship, what about my prize, what about my family

Nobody forces anyone to show up or compete, but yet we have a ton of Monday morning QBs saying fees are too high. Why is that, because it's the ME TOO crowd.

Me, me and just for a good measure, me.

It's not cheap, or easy, but it can be made more efficient. This where the series come in... or not.

 

[mahlv]

Me me me is an American epidemic

 

[Mormegil87]

I think that was the crux of Jim's discussion, are they actually too high and why aren't two day matches filling up? I don't know that it's necessarily a cost issue. That'd be too simple. I think it's a saturation and value issue among several other smaller factors.

I'll use myself as an example. I'm an average shooter. I used to shoot a couple two day matches per year. I've since switched to the one day matches and one two day match each year. I feel the quality of our one day match is pretty high, so we are very fortunate. I can shoot our entire season of one day matches for the cost of a two day match and as you mentioned in the podcast, be home for dinner. On top of that, it feels more like a community with several of us shooters helping set up and take down, build props, RO/Spot and mentor new competitors.

 

[Lowlight]

It's really not the cost, but the quality vs the cost, as well as an oversaturation.

On top of that, why would a mid-pack, even a 20th to 40th place shooter bother beyond the necessary experience needed to be a better competitor? Why show up when a 1-day local match can give you the same level of experience without the hassle.

Again, scalability, the Series has let you down. In their need to fill pockets, they flooded the market with sub-par events with nothing to capture the audience's attention. The stages are stale, the drama is real, it's no fun and the prizes are watered down heavily.

It's the tighter groups that have the stats, where they have a larger core community. The K&M region, Alabama, Kansas, those areas have both shooters and facilities that host multiple events. Both monthly and 2 days. yet if you come in from out of town there is no way you are beating the core members who shoot these places every month.

repetition in competition has it's merit, if you do the same thing season after season, event after event at the same place, eventually you get good at it.

One day events are better, cheaper, easier, less money all around, better in regards to time away, it's a huge win. As I noted, I shoot them here and go home when I feel like it. I hardly ever stay to the end, and who cares. I get what I want out of it, and leave.

2 Days Events like the SHC used to be a destination, now they just punch a ticket to another which is no different from the first. It's no longer unique.

The model should have been scaled to make 2 Day event special, mean something different. There is no longer a storyline and the shine has worn off so people have moved on because they failed to step up.

If you follow the old SHC stuff, from the beginning we constantly pushed the envelope, from helicopters to sponsorships, from stages to star power, that is all gone.

The problem is, you all were too busy attacking me for pointing this stuff out, now it's too late and the ship sailed past the port when the direction could have been changed earlier and fixed the leaking boat. Instead, everyone said the boat was fine, leaks and all, and that Frank was the bad guy. When Frank the bad guy stopped talking about it, people started looking at this and decided it was no fun, just a leaky boat with very little to offer. Now all you have it smoke, mirrors, and overpriced sponsorships for the series that give very little back to the individuals who are participating. Ask this, what does "Official Rifle of the PRS" Money do for event # 23 on the season? How about event number 10, 30, 2, ?

 

[mahlv]

If a guy were smart, he would start a non-profit under the premise of "empowering the sport", start a media company (for profit) to cover events under the non-profit entity, and completely trump-icate the american system for his own (and buddies) benefit. All the while, the MD's would do all the heavy lifting, and the flocks of sheeple will hand over membership fees, match fees, merchandise costs, etc... Not gonna lie, i bought in, and as a new shooter enjoyed it while it lasted. I will be attending a lot more one day gigs locally next year and no more memberships for sure.

 

[Lowlight]

Look at all the people that flew to Ireland for the Guardian match... why fly to Ireland just for a PRS event, it's shiny and new.

Gary creates storylines, Gary invests as a Series Director, and works on storylines for what he is doing. No stress, no drama, it's about Gary, and I mean that in the best way. He is creating the want to attend.

When the last time you saw an original thought from a series to be spread across the events to help? NRL22... right, the best change in a long time and one of the main drivers to their success.

What innovation has come from the series as a whole and not individuals participating in said series?

Last time I read anything from change standpoint was removing the openness and pushing towards, us alone or else.

 

[Long Range 338]

If a guy were smart, he would start a non-profit under the premise of "empowering the sport", start a media company (for profit) to cover events under the non-profit entity, and completely trump-icate the american system for his own (and buddies) benefit. All the while, the MD's would do all the heavy lifting, and the flocks of sheeple will hand over membership fees, match fees, merchandise costs, etc... Not gonna lie, i bought in, and as a new shooter enjoyed it while it lasted. I will be attending a lot more one day gigs locally next year and no more memberships for sure.

Ouch, to the Series.... However isn't that exactly what Frank is advocating for? Attending a 2 day match would be a huge commitment for anybody that has to travel. Regardless of what some are trying to promote themselves to be, this is just a hobby at this point... Attending local one day matches and possibly a 2 day match would fill up anyone's schedule. Isn't this exactly why the NRL22 is a complete runaway success?

 

[lash]

Things being said in this thread needed and need to be said.

Here in Florida, I’m seeing that the competitive nature of the sport is still driving new shooters to try it out. The format will change and should evolve to survive. The economic beast is no different than a real animal. It must adapt to survive.

Point being, most of what is written above speaks to the real concerns and issues that must be addressed, or at least considered when developing a market strategy.

There are a lot of guys wanting to shoot rifles these days. Our paid LR practices draw more people than the local matches do. That says something.

 

[Long Range 338]

There is a ton of interest in LR shooting but many are turned off by the ultra competitiveness that is conveyed - IMO. Most shooters want to shoot for relaxation and fun, the competition aspect just keeps it interesting as the skill level rises. To promote the sport to the masses the more laid back style of the one day match may still be too much.

 

[Tim_WNC]

Back to the topic..my experience is much more in the 3 Gun world. So maybe PRS type is different.

Having a shooter, just a regular squad member, run the practiscore tablet or Run the timer on a stage just isn’t that big of a deal. Unless we’re talking blind stages, it just makes sense for squad members to “pitch in” to assist RO/Staff to ensure a smooth flowing match.

Embedding an “official” with each squad makes a ton of sense to me.

 

[Lowlight]

The one who wins will be the person who establishes:

$150 2 Day event, or a $250 system where $100 per goes into the pot.

Observers per squad vs ROs

Consistency in the events,

Stages that speak to the practical application of precision rifle shooting

A reward system that acknowledges all levels

A tax system that moderates the individual shooter per event.

Easier entrance to participation, in terms of gear

A scalable program that gives you a straightforward path to success. (1 day feeders, 2 day qualifiers, 3 day national)

you all can figure it out from there

 

[Mormegil87]

I'm afraid if we go the other way and start cutting down on events you'll lose people. The only two day event I went to this year was an hour from my house. I feel the MD did an awesome job blending field and PRS, very similar to Phil Vs match. Unfortunately we had some nasty thunderstorms come through and day one got cancelled. He tried to make it an event, unfortunately circumstances dictated otherwise.

If we contract and go with fewer two day matches in a year. Many of us will abandon the two day system all together. It just ain't worth driving 10, 12, 14 hours, a $250 match fee, $200+ in ammo, and another couple hundred in food and lodging.


That all being said, the current system is a house of cards once you leave the core areas and it needs to be shored up. So the above may happen and may already be happening in front of our eyes.

 

[Namekagon]

At the NRA Highpower matches I've attended, competitors are expected to both spot/score and pull targets in the pits. This seems like a no-brainer. You do your best to give good pit service/scoring to fellow competitors so they treat you likewise.

 

[Lowlight]

It's interesting,

That posts about match drama, safety issue, etc, get a ton of traction. But something that might be an easier way to execute the events is left to wither.

It's almost as if the Series know it's not gonna move the needle so why bother trying to improve on it. Status quo is pretty much what people want, or at least it appears that way.

 

[lash]

I agree with your comments about which threads get the attention. However, I can say that the subjects of match safety and ROs and scoring and how to best handle these things are getting quite a bit of attention here locally and in a number of other locations here in the southeast. It’s true that changes are sometimes slow to mature, but I see momentum and see that some smaller clubs are taking heart to make things better.

Small clubs especially have to adapt or die, since most are run on a shoestring and no sponsors other than maybe a local shop or so helping out with things needed to actually hold a match. There are no resources to hire anybody and ROs are hard to come by, at least ones that are committed to helping run long range rifle events.

My point is that it may not seem like there is movement in the right direction, but your voice and others are heard here and I’ll bet elsewhere. Like many things, organic change often starts at the grass roots level and moves upward. At least that’s what I believe, but I’m an incurable optimist.

 

[wildmanpiet]

I agree with your comments about which threads get the attention. However, I can say that the subjects of match safety and ROs and scoring and how to best handle these things are getting quite a bit of attention here locally and in a number of other locations here in the southeast. It’s true that changes are sometimes slow to mature, but I see momentum and see that some smaller clubs are taking heart to make things better.

Small clubs especially have to adapt or die, since most are run on a shoestring and no sponsors other than maybe a local shop or so helping out with things needed to actually hold a match. There are no resources to hire anybody and ROs are hard to come by, at least ones that are committed to helping run long range rifle events.

My point is that it may not seem like there is movement in the right direction, but your voice and others are heard here and I’ll bet elsewhere. Like many things, organic change often starts at the grass roots level and moves upward. At least that’s what I believe, but I’m an incurable optimist.

Having been at a remote field match where medical attention was desperately needed I quickly realized what was truly important to me at matches. It’s not prize tables, karaoke, how a spinner stage is unfair for dasher shooters, or other scoring shenanigans. First and foremost the sport is about shooting so that should be happening. After the shooting part I want everyone making it home and since I am not an AG Cup competitor I want to have some fun... So to do my part in everyone getting home I now carry an AED and decently stocked EMT bag. Many local clubs are not swimming in funds and those supplies are not in startup/operations/maintenance budgets. I would rather put my money and support towards those grassroots groups where they are obviously doing it for love of the sport. So if I am at a match and driving there (Sorry WI Barrel Maker Classic) I should have a good amount of the medical supplies covered. If I am the one needing medical please patch me up or hook me up.
Have fun folks and may the wind forever be in your favor.

 

[Ben17]

My favorite matches have been the K&M club series 1 day matches where the RO/Squad leader shot and scored with the help the squad. It always seemed to go smooth. And the ROs where always very knowledgeable.

Also, I would like to see more stages(really all stages) like the one at the vortex rampage where you weren’t allowed to share wind after you shot and also used a range card to find and identify targets.

Adding on to that I think using range finders, milling, range cards or judging distance by eye all while on the clock would be an exciting change and add some realism. It would add to the sport by forcing the fundamentals and good habits such as zeroing out your turrets, having an accurate data card (not relying solely on a kestrel or phone), and having some field skills such as judging distance and scanning for targets.

I believe there would be less gaming the stages by doing this. One way I thought off is only having the stage brief at the stage or firing position where you don’t know the range to the target until the clock starts at some stages or not at all, or maybe all you get is the description of the target and range fan.

This would obviously call for longer stage times on some stages or less targets or even less stages.

Idk thoughts?

 

[LawnMM]

I like the match official travelling with each squad idea

 

[Alpine 338]

My favorite matches have been the K&M club series 1 day matches where the RO/Squad leader shot and scored with the help the squad. It always seemed to go smooth. And the ROs where always very knowledgeable.

Also, I would like to see more stages(really all stages) like the one at the vortex rampage where you weren’t allowed to share wind after you shot and also used a range card to find and identify targets.

Adding on to that I think using range finders, milling, range cards or judging distance by eye all while on the clock would be an exciting change and add some realism. It would add to the sport by forcing the fundamentals and good habits such as zeroing out your turrets, having an accurate data card (not relying solely on a kestrel or phone), and having some field skills such as judging distance and scanning for targets.

I believe there would be less gaming the stages by doing this. One way I thought off is only having the stage brief at the stage or firing position where you don’t know the range to the target until the clock starts at some stages or not at all, or maybe all you get is the description of the target and range fan.

This would obviously call for longer stage times on some stages or less targets or even less stages.

Idk thoughts?

I prefer matches in that format. Many of the team matches I shoot require you to search, aquire, range, and then engage the targets, all while the clock is ticking. Unfortunately, that's not for everyone. I see most PRS/NRL Shooters wanting the target location and distances handed to them on a silver platter.

 

[Alpine 338]

I like the match official travelling with each squad idea

I have shot many matches, where the squad does all the observing, spotting, and scoring for each other. It works well for many field style matches, where the only rules there are cover, safety, caliber, speed limit, time limit, and scoring.

I have also shot matches in this format, but the match had complicated stages, and complicated rules, that are interpreted differently by each squad. An example was one stage with a floating platform. The rules were you couldn't use any part of your body to stabilize the platform by touching the chain, support arms, or the ground. So the squad ahead of us sets up a tripod on the ground in front of the platform, and rest their rifle on that, while their body is on the platform. It wasn't in the rules saying you couldn't do that, but that was not the intent.

As a match director, I thought I had briefed the RO for a stage that required Shooters to setup their equipment (in the box) under the clock. Unfortunately, the RO started allowing set-up before time started, so I had to tell the RO to continue with the way he was running the stage to ensure consistency for every Shooter. Otherwise, there would be some drama.

 

[Forward543]

You need the same match official at each stage to verify it is run the same. At club level, a designated squad mom can run the safety and scoring, with the help of the squad and do away with ro's.
For a money model apply the attached document. For a 2 day match change the money input to $100 for payout, and raffle the prize table. You will likely need to cut t-shirts, lunches, dinner and most of the other extras at the match.

 

[Boatninja]

Things being said in this thread needed and need to be said.

Here in Florida, I’m seeing that the competitive nature of the sport is still driving new shooters to try it out. The format will change and should evolve to survive. The economic beast is no different than a real animal. It must adapt to survive.

Point being, most of what is written above speaks to the real concerns and issues that must be addressed, or at least considered when developing a market strategy.

There are a lot of guys wanting to shoot rifles these days. Our paid LR practices draw more people than the local matches do. That says something.

The beast must be fed