On the quest for lower SD, what next?

[Halfnutz]

Currently sizing with Hornady dies, Hornady brass.
Powder is measured with a beam scale, I am on the list for V4 autotrickler so I'm sticking with the Redding scale for now.
Looking at mandrel dies for 6.5 CM but I think to get the most out of them I need to anneal. Should an AMP be my next acquisition?
On my last range trip my SD was 16 for 10 rounds. 43.7gr. Staball with Hornady140gr HPBT. I get the same with American Gunner.

I just recieved a Redding neck lube convenience kit to try treating the necks prior to seating to see if it makes a difference.

 

[tnc]

First place I would start would be better brass. Peterson or Lapua. Hornady brass is junk. Just my opinion and I know plenty might disagree

 

[Halfnutz]

First place I would start would be better brass. Peterson or Lapua. Hornady brass is junk. Just my opinion and I know plenty might disagree

I've got 500+ Hornady so I'm kinda set on working with what I have.

 

[Buzzinga]

I've got 500+ Hornady so I'm kinda set on working with what I have.

This might not be what you want to hear, but if you stick with this long enough you're going to realize you can't get the best results without using the best components. I'd skip the AMP for now and start buying Lapua brass. You could put the 500 pcs of Hornady on the PX to recoup some of your money.

 

[Buzzinga]

Also, I'd reckon you could lower your SD by adjusting your powder charge weight.

 

[Ledzep]

I have shot multiple 20-50 shot samples specifically testing SR vs. LR primer pocket and Lapua vs. Peterson vs. Hornady brass and saw no meaningful difference in ES/SD, nor accuracy data across the tests. This was all virgin brass, 140 eld-M, 41.5gr H4350 weighed to .02gr. I didn't take the time to "tune" each case so take it for what it's worth, but ES/SD numbers were within 1 or 2 fps of each other. The Lapua and others are tougher in the head and handle over-normal pressures better and/or for more cycles but that was about the only difference I found.

As a VERY loose trend, slower velocity produces lower SD. What I've seen stick out more than anything is that a given powder in a given cartridge+bullet combination tends to have very similar ES/SD data across powder charge variation. In other words, 40-42gr of H4350 always produces 8-10fps SD regardless of whether you're at 40, 40.5, 41, etc... Not saying that happens every time but that's been the trend over the few thousand rounds I've documented.

Changing powder type has had the single biggest impact on accuracy and ES/SD in my testing. Swapping Varget vs. H4350 vs. IMR 4166 vs. RL-16 etc... produces large changes quickly. Next is changing powder charge-- specifically lowering it pretty much always produces lower dispersion. Finally seating depth seems to have an impact on dispersion but best-to-worst results in seating depth testing was ~1/2-1/3 the scale of powder charge ladder in terms of group size. Saw no real effect of seating depth on ES/SD.

Auto trickler will help, then I'd look at neck treatment. Uniforming neck wall thickness, material condition, I.D. surface finish, and lubricity. I would not chase your tail trying to get much better than 7-9fps SD over a statistically viable sample size (my testing shows that to be 20 at the bare minimum, 35-50 being something you can be very confident in your results).

Then there's the issue of accuracy and repeatability of chronographs to begin with.... Even lab radars often have probably 3-7fps of 'noise' in the reading it gives you which can be readily seen in the difference of the difference between two of them recording the same shots over a sizeable string.

Annealing with AMP lost 10-15fps on the average velocity. No change in ES or SD, but it will keep velocity from 'migrating' over multiple firings, and will make cases last longer.


ETA: What is your intended goal that you want to achieve by reducing SD's?

You can go all the way down the rabbit hole and end up not improving things by as much as a guy might hope. At the end of the day despite what I know I CAN do to improve performance... for plate matches, practice, and general <1200yd target practice, I throw charges out of a thrower. I weigh the first 10 charges out of the thrower to make sure the average powder weight is where I want it, then I throw charges without weighing to make my ammo.

Why? Thrown charges with .3-.4gr variation from round to round has much less impact on the end result than a guy might think. Rather spend the time shooting than trickling to .02gr. YMMV.

 

[jakelly]

So to recap-
You’re locked on Hornady brass
Throw your powder charges
Don’t waste much time fussing with brass
And chronograph data is suspect, so why bother

 

[Ledzep]

Sorta. I mean it's up to everyone how anal they need to be and how anal they want to be. You can do things to improve performance, no question there. There is, however, definitely a point of diminishing returns along the way in terms of "effort in" vs. "results out", and depending on what you're doing, the difference between an SD of 6fps and an SD of 12 fps might account for a single digit % increase in hit probability while requiring several times more input effort. Again, up to everyone to determine for themselves what it's worth.

For me, I enjoy being able to toss together a 50 cal ammo can full of ammo in an afternoon that will last me several matches and practice sessions. With several top 10-15 finishes in national level 2-day matches it doesn't seem to be meaningfully hurting performance on target. YMMV.

 

[Halfnutz]

I have shot multiple 20-50 shot samples specifically testing SR vs. LR primer pocket and Lapua vs. Peterson vs. Hornady brass and saw no meaningful difference in ES/SD, nor accuracy data across the tests. This was all virgin brass, 140 eld-M, 41.5gr H4350 weighed to .02gr. I didn't take the time to "tune" each case so take it for what it's worth, but ES/SD numbers were within 1 or 2 fps of each other. The Lapua and others are tougher in the head and handle over-normal pressures better and/or for more cycles but that was about the only difference I found.

As a VERY loose trend, slower velocity produces lower SD. What I've seen stick out more than anything is that a given powder in a given cartridge+bullet combination tends to have very similar ES/SD data across powder charge variation. In other words, 40-42gr of H4350 always produces 8-10fps SD regardless of whether you're at 40, 40.5, 41, etc... Not saying that happens every time but that's been the trend over the few thousand rounds I've documented.

Changing powder type has had the single biggest impact on accuracy and ES/SD in my testing. Swapping Varget vs. H4350 vs. IMR 4166 vs. RL-16 etc... produces large changes quickly. Next is changing powder charge-- specifically lowering it pretty much always produces lower dispersion. Finally seating depth seems to have an impact on dispersion but best-to-worst results in seating depth testing was ~1/2-1/3 the scale of powder charge ladder in terms of group size. Saw no real effect of seating depth on ES/SD.

Auto trickler will help, then I'd look at neck treatment. Uniforming neck wall thickness, material condition, I.D. surface finish, and lubricity. I would not chase your tail trying to get much better than 7-9fps SD over a statistically viable sample size (my testing shows that to be 20 at the bare minimum, 35-50 being something you can be very confident in your results).

Then there's the issue of accuracy and repeatability of chronographs to begin with.... Even lab radars often have probably 3-7fps of 'noise' in the reading it gives you which can be readily seen in the difference of the difference between two of them recording the same shots over a sizeable string.

Annealing with AMP lost 10-15fps on the average velocity. No change in ES or SD, but it will keep velocity from 'migrating' over multiple firings, and will make cases last longer.


ETA: What is your intended goal that you want to achieve by reducing SD's?

You can go all the way down the rabbit hole and end up not improving things by as much as a guy might hope. At the end of the day despite what I know I CAN do to improve performance... for plate matches, practice, and general <1200yd target practice, I throw charges out of a thrower. I weigh the first 10 charges out of the thrower to make sure the average powder weight is where I want it, then I throw charges without weighing to make my ammo.

Why? Thrown charges with .3-.4gr variation from round to round has much less impact on the end result than a guy might think. Rather spend the time shooting than trickling to .02gr. YMMV.

Thanks for all of that, that gives me some things to think about.
For all the Lapua advocates, I'm having a hell of a time even finding any. I'm on Discord, and frequent multiple websites for components. "I got's what I got's and that's what I'm working with for now."
The rifle is a Nucleus and the accuracy is there on paper. The SD is just not single digit where I would like it to be. I'll be in Frank and Marc's class again in August, I'd like to have things dialed in as best I can by then.

 

[Mike Casselton]

@Halfnutz have you tried getting the powder charge up to 44.0?
Staball, like a lot of other ball powders, tends to lower SD as the charge weight increases.

I totally understand the desire to throw powder charges. Staball will drop the same charge over and over through a regular powder measure. That sure beats the hell out of 4350 though my Chargemaster.

 

[Halfnutz]

@Halfnutz have you tried getting the powder charge up to 44.0?
Staball, like a lot of other ball powders, tends to lower SD as the charge weight increases.

I totally understand the desire to throw powder charges. Staball will drop the same charge over and over through a regular powder measure. That sure beats the hell out of 4350 though my Chargemaster.

I'll have to check my notes from load development to see where I stopped for sure. I know I went over 44.0 with no pressure signs. 43.7 just seemed to be my happy spot with a 5 round per charge weight OCW test. FWIW I drop and trickle to weight.
I use a ProChrono just to get an idea of where things are during OCW. At 43.7 with 5 rounds it gave me an SD of 3.3
Used a magneto speed for the 10 rounds I checked last weekend.
I've checked the ProChrono against the magneto speed in the past and they dont match exact but it does show within a reasonable amount. If nothing else they do match up for which rounds are faster or slower. The SD was within 2 between the two iirc, and averages close as well during the comparison.

 

[Mike Casselton]

If you use a good repeatable technique, you don't need to trickle up. It'll drop spot on.

 

[CK1.0]

I use Hornady brass, drop StaBall straight into cases (dropping powder for 100rds takes ~15mins) using a very average Lyman Brass Smith powder measure (~$50), and yet somehow, amazingly, even without using Lapua brass, still get single digit SD's. 1moa or smaller at 1000 yards on the regular.

No auto-trickler. No Prometheus. I don't turn necks, I don't uniform flash-holes, I don't weigh anything. I do everything else though, every single time.

I also use a ProChrono and it's perfectly fine (had, and got rid of a Labradar, hated it).

Annealing is a must IMO. I'm an AMP user now (yes, they're sick), but even the DIY drill/torch method is worth doing (and I did that for a long time). Every. Single. Firing. (that's important no matter what method you use)

I 100% recommend using a mandrel, it cut my SD's in half.

To me, bullet-seating tells the story of how things are going to go: if seating isn't smooth and consistent round to round, round after round, you’ll see it down range and in higher SD’s. My best trick is probably dry-tumbling my lube off after sizing/mandrel in corn cob media: it gets all the lube off (which is important and often overlooked) and it leaves dust in the necks to help with seating so you don't have to dick around with graphite or whatever.

For me it takes 13 steps:
1. anneal (this used to be after drying so I wasn't handling dirty brass, AMP doesn't care)
2. deprime (mostly just so they'll dry faster)
3. wet-tumble with a couple handfuls of SS pins and Armor All Wash & Wax + Lemishine for 90mins (even if the brass never hit the ground)
4. brass dryer 2.5hrs
5. Spray-on lanolin/alcohol lube (swirled around in a plastic container, wait for alcohol to evaporate)
6. FL resize w/ bushing (painfully exact -.002" bump)
7. Mandrel (-.002" under bullet OD)
8. dry-tumble in corn cob 45mins
9. trim
10. chamfer/deburr (by hand, removes less material and is more consistent, 3 twists chamfer, 2 twists deburr, that's it)
11. prime
12. powder (after cycling a full hopper's worth of powder through the measure before starting or weighing anything)
13. bullet seating

Sucks. Works great.

 

[smoothy8500]

The SD is just not single digit where I would like it to be. I'll be in Frank and Marc's class again in August, I'd like to have things dialed in as best I can by then.

Ignoring the SD's, what's the vertical dispersion of your current loads at longer distances such as 800-1K yards? If it's relatively flat, good enough.

 

[918v]

Currently sizing with Hornady dies, Hornady brass.
Powder is measured with a beam scale, I am on the list for V4 autotrickler so I'm sticking with the Redding scale for now.
Looking at mandrel dies for 6.5 CM but I think to get the most out of them I need to anneal. Should an AMP be my next acquisition?
On my last range trip my SD was 16 for 10 rounds. 43.7gr. Staball with Hornady140gr HPBT. I get the same with American Gunner.

I just recieved a Redding neck lube convenience kit to try treating the necks prior to seating to see if it makes a difference.

I like 44.6grs of Staball

 

[Halfnutz]

I like 44.6grs of Staball

Velocity and barrel length?

 

[Halfnutz]

Ignoring the SD's, what's the vertical dispersion of your current loads at longer distances such as 800-1K yards? If it's relatively flat, good enough.

I haven't gotten to shoot that far yet. Local range is only 200. For longer I trip up to a buddies place.

 

[308pirate]

I haven't gotten to shoot that far yet. Local range is only 200. For longer I trip up to a buddies place.

What's the extreme spread of your load's MV? How many data points in that sample set?

ES is more important than SD

 

[Halfnutz]

What's the extreme spread of your load's MV? How many data points in that sample set?

ES is more important than SD

ES is 50 or 51 for 10 rounds.

 

[308pirate]

ES is 50 or 51 for 10 rounds.

That's your range of variation. For a rough estimate of impact on elevation, assuming a normal distribution, your MV range is average ± ES/2.

Plug that into a ballistic solver and see how far downrange do you start having excessive elevation dispersion.

Then decide if it's a problem that is worth solving.

 

[Halfnutz]

That's your range of variation. For a rough estimate of impact on elevation, assuming a normal distribution, your MV range is average ± ES/2.

Plug that into a ballistic solver and see how far downrange do you start having excessive elevation dispersion.

Then decide if it's a problem that is worth solving.

@800 +/- 5" (<.2 mils)
@900 +/- 6.5" (.2 mils)
@1000 +/- 8.5" (.236 mils)
@1100 +/- 11.5" (.29 mils)
@1200 +/- 15.5" (.358 mils)

*If I'm "mathing" correctly.

Loaded up some more last night, same brass (3rd loading), same powder charge, etc. I have an obvious difference the amount of pressure in seating on some of them. If the brass is inconsistent in sizing/spring back, then annealing should improve this correct?

 

[918v]

Velocity and barrel length?

24” 2820FPS

 

[sboone]

I use Hornady brass, drop StaBall straight into cases (dropping powder for 100rds takes ~15mins) using a very average Lyman Brass Smith powder measure (~$50), and yet somehow, amazingly, even without using Lapua brass, still get single digit SD's. 1moa or smaller at 1000 yards on the regular.

No auto-trickler. No Prometheus. I don't turn necks, I don't uniform flash-holes, I don't weigh anything. I do everything else though, every single time.

I also use a ProChrono and it's perfectly fine (had, and got rid of a Labradar, hated it).

Annealing is a must IMO. I'm an AMP user now (yes, they're sick), but even the DIY drill/torch method is worth doing (and I did that for a long time). Every. Single. Firing. (that's important no matter what method you use)

I 100% recommend using a mandrel, it cut my SD's in half.

To me, bullet-seating tells the story of how things are going to go: if seating isn't smooth and consistent round to round, round after round, you’ll see it down range and in higher SD’s. My best trick is probably dry-tumbling my lube off after sizing/mandrel in corn cob media: it gets all the lube off (which is important and often overlooked) and it leaves dust in the necks to help with seating so you don't have to dick around with graphite or whatever.

For me it takes 13 steps:
1. anneal (this used to be after drying so I wasn't handling dirty brass, AMP doesn't care)
2. deprime (mostly just so they'll dry faster)
3. wet-tumble with a couple handfuls of SS pins and Armor All Wash & Wax + Lemishine for 90mins (even if the brass never hit the ground)
4. brass dryer 2.5hrs
5. Spray-on lanolin/alcohol lube (swirled around in a plastic container, wait for alcohol to evaporate)
6. FL resize w/ bushing (painfully exact -.002" bump)
7. Mandrel (-.002" under bullet OD)
8. dry-tumble in corn cob 45mins
9. trim
10. chamfer/deburr (by hand, removes less material and is more consistent, 3 twists chamfer, 2 twists deburr, that's it)
11. prime
12. powder (after cycling a full hopper's worth of powder through the measure before starting or weighing anything)
13. bullet seating

Sucks. Works great.

Is there a reason you chamfer/debur after tumble rather than before? I usually full resize, chamfer, debur, clean primer pockets before tumbling in walnut media to get rid of lube and brass shavings. Just curious, only been reloading for a couple years abd want to hear the thought process

 

[308pirate]

If the brass is inconsistent in sizing/spring back, then annealing should improve this correct?

Yes, it should

 

[918v]

@800 +/- 5" (<.2 mils)
@900 +/- 6.5" (.2 mils)
@1000 +/- 8.5" (.236 mils)
@1100 +/- 11.5" (.29 mils)
@1200 +/- 15.5" (.358 mils)

*If I'm "mathing" correctly.

Loaded up some more last night, same brass (3rd loading), same powder charge, etc. I have an obvious difference the amount of pressure in seating on some of them. If the brass is inconsistent in sizing/spring back, then annealing should improve this correct?

Not necessarily.

The difference in seating pressure could be from case lube migrating inside the neck. Do you spray and shake?

 

[Halfnutz]

Not necessarily.

The difference in seating pressure could be from case lube migrating inside the neck. Do you spray and shake?

I use Imperial for sizing.

Last nights rounds were dry tumbled to remove lube and I used Redding dry neck lube prior to seating.

 

[918v]

I use imperial as well. I body size first then neck size. I don’t lube the neck or the shoulder. I wipe off the cases with a t-shirt. If any of the imperial gets in the neck it will cause friction issues which will cause ES issues. If you’re throwing lubed cases into a dry tumbler this may be happening.

You’re going to have the same issues with any brass. I use Hornady brass and don’t have these issues at all.

 

[smoothy8500]

@1000 +/- 8.5" (.236 mils)

*If I'm "mathing" correctly.

I use the same method @308pirate suggests to estimate expected vertical dispersion and it is usually right on at 1K, sometimes even less.

Seeing these numbers and exchanging with different numbers gives you an idea if chasing down a lower ES is really going to help your accuracy. For F-class that has a 1/2 MOA “x” ring, yes. For a steel silhouette, maybe 8 inches vs 4 inches is debatable.

 

[Halfnutz]

I use the same method @308pirate suggests to estimate expected vertical dispersion and it is usually right on at 1K, sometimes even less.

Seeing these numbers and exchanging with different numbers gives you an idea if chasing down a lower ES is really going to help your accuracy. For F-class that has a 1/2 MOA “x” ring, yes. For a steel silhouette, maybe 8 inches vs 4 inches is debatable.

That was +/- 8.5 inches at 1000 yards so a 17inch spread from the Hi to Low velocities.

 

[Ledzep]

I haven't tested .308 in the fixture, but history shows Varget is an obvious candidate.

6.5 Creedmoor in the 135-140gr class, Varget, H4350, and RL-16. Varget is slow but absolutely hammers (34-36gr) and has some of the better ES/SD numbers. H4350 and RL-16 are right on top of each other and work very well, especially for getting good velocity. 147-153gr stuff RL-23, H4831, RL-26 (ES is sometimes ugly depending on the barrel), H4350 (will be slow).

 

[smoothy8500]

That was +/- 8.5 inches at 1000 yards so a 17inch spread from the Hi to Low velocities.

I think your math may be off. Or my dumpy Nosler 175 308 are magic. They only show 13” with an ES of 50fps.

Either way, your ES of 50 needs to be tightened up with some more load development.

 

[Halfnutz]

I think your math may be off. Or my dumpy Nosler 175 308 are magic. They only show 13” with an ES of 50fps.

Either way, your ES of 50 needs to be tightened up with some more load development.

You're right I ran 60fps spread 2721-2781 but still came up with 17" @1000 on two separate calculators.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Annealing will not close the gap on 50fps spread.
How did you acquire your brass? 500 of one lot or piecemeal it together? Your case capacities could be all over the place if not the same lot.
I am not a huge fan of hornady, but have had good brass of theirs on occasion.
I'd go back to the reloading room to tighten your numbers.

 

[Halfnutz]

Annealing will not close the gap on 50fps spread.
How did you acquire your brass? 500 of one lot or piecemeal it together? Your case capacities could be all over the place if not the same lot.
I am not a huge fan of hornady, but have had good brass of theirs on occasion.
I'd go back to the reloading room to tighten your numbers.

These are all once fired Hornady Match from the same lot that I am using now. I have 2 other lots of 200. I keep them all separated.

I'll be playing with my powder charge some more for sure. Still thinking a mandrel won't help without annealing.

The rest of my brass prep includes unforming flash holes/primer pockets, trimming/chamfering.
Primers are WLR, having a hard time scoring BR or FGMM.

 

[Halfnutz]

Just got to where I can look at my notes.
Low 2737
Hi 2788
ES 51
SD 16

Strelok shows 14.7" spread at 1000yrds (.4mils)

 

[Ledzep]

Here's my results for 6.5 StaBall. 140 ELD-M, 2.810 COAL, Fed 210m. Accuracy was not very good in my barrel. 20 shots each below.

42.0gr:
AVG: 2653 FPS
ES: 53
SD: 13

43.5gr:
AVG: 2768
ES: 65
SD: 17

45.0gr:
AVG: 2900
ES: 89
SD: 18

Personally, I'd suggest a different powder if at all possible. RL-16, RL-17, H4350, IMR4350, H4831, Varget...

 

[CK1.0]

Is there a reason you chamfer/debur after tumble rather than before? I usually full resize, chamfer, debur, clean primer pockets before tumbling in walnut media to get rid of lube and brass shavings. Just curious, only been reloading for a couple years abd want to hear the thought process

Yes, I purposely deburr/chamfer after all the brass getting knocked around (tumbling) is over with. My thinking is that bullet-seating is important enough to where I want the case mouths in the best possible shape they'll ever be in when I seat the bullet.

I think everybody knows wet-tumbling with SS pins will beat up on the case mouths, but dry-tumbling beats them up too (just not nearly as bad). With any kind of tumbling the cases bang into one and other, a lot, and when we chamfer/deburr a case mouth we're making it thinner at its edge and kind of sharpening it almost like a blade. I don't want anything banging into that edge and fucking it up even a little to where it may grab or cause friction when seating a bullet. I even get pissed if I drop cases before bullet-seating: unless I'm totally sure they didn't land on their mouth I redo the chamfer/deburring...

 

[CK1.0]

Here's my results for 6.5 StaBall. 140 ELD-M, 2.810 COAL, Fed 210m. Accuracy was not very good in my barrel. 20 shots each below.

42.0gr:
AVG: 2653 FPS
ES: 53
SD: 13

43.5gr:
AVG: 2768
ES: 65
SD: 17

45.0gr:
AVG: 2900
ES: 89
SD: 18

Personally, I'd suggest a different powder if at all possible. RL-16, RL-17, H4350, IMR4350, H4831, Varget...

IDK how that would tell you anything, those are some HUGE jumps in charge weight... I don't even know what data one could possibly glean from that?

Powder flavor has a lot less to do with accuracy than people make it out to IMHO. I shoot my ladders into a berm and just look at speeds in .2gr increments looking for nodes/flat-spots.

Though, (flame-suit on), I kinda think the OCW-thing is a load of BS. It's a rorschach test; people see what they want to see. Velocity is real.

 

[Ledzep]

I'm not saying it happens every time for every person.... But it's happened every time I've done 0.3gr increments and 20-50 shots per sample (5 or 6 times in 3 cartridges). So now I assume it's happening because the same trend of "more powder = more dispersion" has shown up in every cartridge and every powder I've tested so far. That 42gr charge shot a 1.2 MOA group IIRC, and by the time it was 45.0 it was 3 MOA. ETA: My point in sharing the velocity data is that combined with what I've seen for accuracy, I don't think 6.5 StaBall is a winner, nor do I think it's going to produce happy velocity spreads for the OP, regardless of how much massaging to the minutia he does.

Bumping 0.3gr does very little more than moving your average velocity about 20fps. Big sweeps to see big changes.

 

[CK1.0]

I'm not saying it happens every time for every person.... But it's happened every time I've done 0.3gr increments and 20-50 shots per sample (5 or 6 times in 3 cartridges). So now I assume it's happening because the same trend of "more powder = more dispersion" has shown up in every cartridge and every powder I've tested so far. That 42gr charge shot a 1.2 MOA group IIRC, and by the time it was 45.0 it was 3 MOA.

View attachment 7619869

Bumping 0.3gr does very little more than moving your average velocity about 20fps. Big sweeps to see big changes.

IDK. I don't want to derail the OP's thread. Let's just say I think it's probably better to shoot them right into a berm, that's just noise to me, I wouldn't want to base any of my decisions off groups shot while conducting a ladder.

 

[Choid]

How would you rank the powders you've tried as far as top performers for consistent velocity in the 308 and creedmoor appropriate powders?

I'm guessing H4350 for creedmoors and varget for 308?

Can't find any H4350 right now but I have some RL-16 on the way I ordered that should be here today. Just got an RCBS Matchmaster powder dispenser in the mail and hoping between that compared to a Hornady Autocharge Pro and switching from 6.5 Staball to RL16 will bring my SD down a little.

I like RL 16 more than 4350 for 6.5 Creedmoor. Can't speak to 6. SDs are similar, velocities are better. You can choose from all of your speed zones with 16, whereas with 4350, you are generally trying to stay in the top ones. I've seen SDs in the very low numbers with 16.

As far as 308, Varget and 4064 are generally my go to powders. But there are a lot of powders people love for 308. 8208 XBR is really good too, and I would probably use that except for that I keep all of mine for 223, where it is peerless.

 

[Choid]

IDK. I don't want to derail the OP's thread. Let's just say I think it's probably better to shoot them right into a berm, that's just noise to me, I wouldn't want to base any of my decisions off groups shot while conducting a ladder.

That's funny. My lowest SD load actually came from running a velocity ladder test into snow so deep that all of my targets were covered. Just shot at the snow.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Superformance is also a ball powder that's suitable for some 6.5 CM loads

 

[Halfnutz]

3rd loading on my brass and my ES jumped to 91. Seating pressure was sporadic so I had low expectations.
After a bit of looking and financial consideration I opted for the Anneal Eez. Just not ready to part with $1400 for an AMP and the cost of 5+ pilots.