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One set of rules for all comps

hypertex

hypertex

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 5, 2007
457
58
Bullhead City, Arizona
All competitions are governed by rules. The majority of users use bolt guns and the rules reflect that fact. The semi-auto rifle now has evolved to the point that it is not uncommon at competitions. The rules have not evolved; they are still in the process. No consistency exists.

I propose a standard set of rules be created that matches can subscribe to. Peer review is capable of monitoring these rules. Equipment neutral would be the goal. Insurance requirements should also be addressed and the rules structured so that the various insurance bodies would require a match to subscribe to a standard rule st.

Our sport is evolving. There is randomness in the management and this is dangerous to you and me as competitors. The variety in match rules cannot serve but to deter from our sport. I ask that some of the more senior members here and abroad consider the formation of a peer reviewed set of rules that can be applied to all matches. <I think this is how NASCAR started>

There should be no such thing as a <insert rifle> unfriendly match.

Well if that isn't a mouthful of ranting I don't know what is -


1.Bolt back, mag out when moving.
2.Rifle to be carried in a manner which leaves the hands free, muzzle up/down
3.Finger is not in the trigger unless actually executing a stage
4.Range safety is paramount, if you see something amiss, act accordingly and help correct the situation.
5.Upon shooting a stage, muzzle discipline(the 180 rule) shall be observed.
6.Negligent discharge will DQ the shooter from the match.

some other common items:

A. The RO is always right
B If an RO is in error, see rule A
C.No tracers, AP or steel core bullets.
D.No alcohol on the range until all clear is called for the day.
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

No equal equipment like pussyfied NASCAR with there car of tomorrow, I think the way Rifles Only does it is perfect, "bolt back, mag out", and a scoring system of points, instead of % for each stage, again like Rifles Only, the bolt back mag out evens the field IMHO with bolt guns and gas guns, the scoring with % is confusing, points make scoring easier to score and easier for the competitor to understand, we should all have carry hands free, muzzle down, chamber flagged. But in no way do I want the NRA involved in Practical/Tactical matches!
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

Agreed Brian. Par times yes points yes
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

Having seen this from the behind the planning, I agree the perception is that semi autos are at a disadvantage, however that is only the way it appears because of load out.

If we think about it, everyone is working from a bolt back mag out position during movement from one shooting position to another. Because the semi is loaded they lose that round, hence the perception of a disadvantage.

Two problems here, prior, proper planning, and magazine distribution and load. Unfortunately with a larger caliber semi auto <span style="font-style: italic">(.30 parent)</span> the only magazine choices are 20 rounds or more. So people tend to load the magazine up, start the stage which constantly requires them to eject the chambered round. If you added magazine and loaded them appropriately as an example:

Stage requires 3 shots from position 1, unload move to position 2, 3 shots from position 2, move to 3, etc. The logical load out would would be no more than 3 rounds in the magazine with enough magazines to handle the entire stage, working with a dump pouch. <span style="font-style: italic">(or you just mark them well and drop them)</span>

The issue is the rigs used. How do you load out your kit to carry 5 magazines loaded properly. If this was a carbine class it would be easy, drills that require you to reload at speed while moving from standing to kneeling, to prone are done all the time under time and speed with a few round. <span style="font-style: italic">(Pat Rodgers meusoc comes to mind)</span> 5 round standing, reload & drop, 5 rounds kneeling reload & drop, 5 round prone in less than 20 seconds I think it was... ? <span style="font-style: italic">(might be 3 rounds but you get the point)</span>. The question is, when was the last time anyone practiced that... everyone likes the idea of a semi auto working like a bolt gun, but you have to bridge the carbine and precision elements together. I don't see that happening. Everything thinks like a bolt gun but using a gasser. The only time they see it as an advantage is during drills like the Mover, or in the case of our friend from Canada who shot the 600 yard dot drill in 8 seconds, there.

I recommend updating your training to work more like a carbine using a precision Semi Auto... this will solve the problem. Kit yourself out like you're driving a carbine and not like you are driving a bolt action. I bet you see a difference in the perceived problems.

I wish I could say, weapon on safe, thumb riding the safety, finger straight along the receiver, but unfortunately with so many people using them, you just can't. There is no way to guarantee that a guy you never met who showed up with his $1000 DPMS with all sorts of grand ideas is going to handle himself correctly. Speed is the biggest threat to safety, when you push people faster that is where and when the mistakes happen.
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

I understand the reasoning behind bolt back, mag out.

But every other action shooting competition has people moving with guns loaded and chambered.

Why not with rifles as well?
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

Many that shoot comps, use them as a learning tool/event only. Having one set of "Rules" is about "Fairness only".

Playing fair will teach/instill what, to a Tactical shooter?
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rrflyer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I understand the reasoning behind bolt back, mag out.

But every other action shooting competition has people moving with guns loaded and chambered.

Why not with rifles as well?</div></div>

Velocity,

it is much easier to stop a pistol round than it is a rifle round.

plus, rifle matches are not held in small bays with berms surrounding them.
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

Uniform rules equal a sanctioning body.
I do not know if we are ready for that. Matches countrywide are still a little disparate.

I think taking the ten major matches in the country and incororating them into a "chamionship" type series for point to enter into a final match would best incorporate the best of all the different schools of thought.

I know exactly where hypertex is coming from, but disagree on the application. I was a the same match that he was that spurred his current outlook. I was shootign a gasgun and fell on my face.
Now, if I had directed my energy at adapting instead of griping I would have done better-my bad. As Lowlight pointed out, managing gear for the stage is imperative.

Hypertex, I'd be inclined to agree if it weren't for a shining piece of evidence that counters everything you or I may have thought about gasguns being discriminated against-
<span style="font-weight: bold">our fellow 'Zonie steve123 took <span style="text-decoration: line-through">third</span> second place with a gasgun.</span>


I just chose to stick to boltguns after the match so I can focus better with teh platform that I shoot better.
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

I did a search on the site and saw that there was no discussion on this issue. I sat down and thought about it and added some personal experience to the opening post. I believe that a core set of safety rules needs to be developed. RO has it right- for any of you that have been to training or a comp at RO know that Jason's safety briefing is the standard all others should be held to.




<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...I think the way Rifles Only does it is perfect, "bolt back, mag out", and a scoring system of points, instead of % for each stage, again like Rifles Only, the bolt back mag out evens the field IMHO with bolt guns and gas guns, the scoring with % is confusing, points make scoring easier to score and easier for the competitor to understand, we should all have carry hands free, muzzle down, chamber flagged... </div></div>

Absolutely perfect.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... But in no way do I want the NRA involved in Practical/Tactical matches! </div></div>

Talk about ruining a sport...

Having the aforementioned national body have anything to do with this is just introducing an alien element into our sport. Peer review is best.
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Having seen this from the behind the planning, I agree the perception is that semi autos are at a disadvantage, however that is only the way it appears because of load out. ..
</div></div>

I agree with this entire post.

There are some onerous misapplications of rules in the name of safety:

2crva52.jpg


Semi's only: bolt back, mag out as transitioning to another window. Bolt guns only need to have bolt back. I see now that I should have just dealt with it, but at the time I mused that 12 mag changes in one stage was a little excessive.
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hypertex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All competitions are governed by rules. The majority of users use bolt guns and the rules reflect that fact. The semi-auto rifle now has evolved to the point that it is not uncommon at competitions. The rules have not evolved; they are still in the process. No consistency exists.

I propose a standard set of rules be created that matches can subscribe to. Peer review is capable of monitoring these rules. Equipment neutral would be the goal. Insurance requirements should also be addressed and the rules structured so that the various insurance bodies would require a match to subscribe to a standard rule st.

Our sport has evolving. There is randomness in the management and this is dangerous to you and me as competitors. The variety in match rules cannot serve but to deter from our sport. I ask that some of the more senior members here and abroad consider the formation of a peer reviewed set of rules that can be applied to all matches. <I think this is how NASCAR started>

There should be no such thing as a <insert rifle> unfriendly match.

Well if that isn't a mouthful of ranting I don't know what is - </div></div>

I can certainly identify with your frustration.

I've been to 3 different matches with RO's that were unsure exactly what the rules were for those people shooting semiauto at their stage. Even to the point of going to different stages run by different RO's and having to do the semiauto juggle differently while all the bolt guys just open their bolt and carry on to the rest of the stage. For instance one RO let me put the rifle on safe when transitioning between holes then at another stage I had to make sure the bolt was locked back,drop the mag and put the rifle on safe then transition to another hole then put in the mag,drop the bolt and take the safety off.That was friggen awesomely ridiculous.

When shooting over a barricade and transitioning to another level on the barricade and/or transitioning through various holes in barricades I'd prefer to put the semiauto on and off safety between positions rather than having to lock back the slide and single load or put in a new mag for each hole or new position on the barricade. It just makes sense doing it this way.
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Uniform rules equal a sanctioning body.
I do not know if we are ready for that. Matches countrywide are still a little disparate.
</div></div>

Don't sports/activities that have a grounded set of rules in place fair better when finally "going national?" Additions to the core set would be common, but everyone would know that e.g."bolt back, mag out" was being enforced at this particular comp.

I just queried the OP of a match posting about the rules yesterday. No answer yet even though he encouraged questions about the comp to be submitted freely.
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

When shooting over a barricade and transitioning to another level on the barricade and/or transitioning through various holes in barricades I'd prefer to put the semiauto on and off safety between positions rather than having to lock back the slide and single load or put in a new mag for each hole or new position on the barricade. It just makes sense doing it this way.
</div></div>

All too typical. If this is to be the norm, then so be it-but let it be the norm. Lowlight is right though in using the carbine mentality inre load out and mag discipline to deal with varying situations.
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hypertex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I just queried the OP of a match posting about the rules yesterday. No answer yet
</div></div>

I think he responded "bring lots of mags" which would lead me to believe they are gonna say "mag out, bolt back". I doubt he wioll comment on the barricade specific question as that will indicate there will be a barricade with ports or not...



With regard to the standardization, I feel that the disparate nature is good right now, because "the best way" may not be found yet. That's why I think a circuit would be good for folks to see how everyone else does it.

<span style="font-size: 26pt">
Keep the NRA as far from Practical Precision as possible!</span>
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

If your feet aren't moving I would certainly let you put it on safe... that barricade you have in this post would only require bolt guns to have the bolt back and the semis to be on safe if it was up to me. The only question for me would be the 180 rule, are you going to break 180 trying to move from hole to hole in the barricade as it is presented. The platform looks a little narrow so do you have to turn sideways or can you move into it with the muzzle forward ?

We generally adhered to mag out locked back only when moving from place to place. Not necessarily shot to shot, a barricade from sitting kneeling and standing would be mag out but then you only need 3 mags.

One issue we saw early on with bolt guns, was the fact nobody practiced magazine changes and it created a lot of malfunctions during the O Course when we ran that. That is the reason we made it more universal as it added another skill set to the mix, can you load your rifle from the magazine without causing a problem ? Lots of people actually get it wrong.
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... are you going to break 180 trying to move from hole to hole in the barricade as it is presented. The platform looks a little narrow so do you have to turn sideways or can you move into it with the muzzle forward ?
</div></div>

It was 8'x8' -ish, easily accommodating even someone of my svelte stature. No 180 concerns, straight in and out. (can I say that on the internet?)
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Uniform rules equal a sanctioning body.
I do not know if we are ready for that. Matches countrywide are still a little disparate.

I think taking the ten major matches in the country and incororating them into a "chamionship" type series for point to enter into a final match would best incorporate the best of all the different schools of thought.

I know exactly where hypertex is coming from, but disagree on the application. I was a the same match that he was that spurred his current outlook. I was shootign a gasgun and fell on my face.
Now, if I had directed my energy at adapting instead of griping I would have done better-my bad. As Lowlight pointed out, managing gear for the stage is imperative.

Hypertex, I'd be inclined to agree if it weren't for a shining piece of evidence that counters everything you or I may have thought about gasguns being discriminated against-
<span style="font-weight: bold">our fellow 'Zonie steve123 took third place with a gasgun.</span>


I just chose to stick to boltguns after the match so I can focus better with teh platform that I shoot better. </div></div>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Uniform rules equal a sanctioning body.
I do not know if we are ready for that. Matches countrywide are still a little disparate.

I think taking the ten major matches in the country and incororating them into a "chamionship" type series for point to enter into a final match would best incorporate the best of all the different schools of thought.

I know exactly where hypertex is coming from, but disagree on the application. I was a the same match that he was that spurred his current outlook. I was shootign a gasgun and fell on my face.
Now, if I had directed my energy at adapting instead of griping I would have done better-my bad. As Lowlight pointed out, managing gear for the stage is imperative.

Hypertex, I'd be inclined to agree if it weren't for a shining piece of evidence that counters everything you or I may have thought about gasguns being discriminated against-
<span style="font-weight: bold">our fellow 'Zonie steve123 took third place with a gasgun.</span>


I just chose to stick to boltguns after the match so I can focus better with teh platform that I shoot better. </div></div>

Hey Sobrbiker883,

I was writing my post and you beat me to the submit button as usual.

To be clear my comments were mostly about iconsistancies in how each RO ran the semiauto's at different stages.Also my reference happened during different stages in one match .Actually Hypers problem did not happen to me at the match he's referring to but I did hear about it because he asked me If I was run the same way he was.Which is the other part of my point.

Another thing is that I know and like some of the RO's and match directors I'm referring to and like the shoots a whole lot as well.Since this is script I just wanted those reading this to know I'm not the least bit mad but was a little annoyed at the time.It's just that they are newer practical precision matches and some things are still being worked out.So no biggy to me.It'll all get figured out eventually.

For once things came together for me and I managed "ahem a 2cnd place" but a few of those stages I wasn't able to finish which cost a fair amount of points.I bet you can guess which ones since you were shooting semi.
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

steve123, that's why I think I started this, it's not that I didn't have a good time and all, far from it. I was just a little mad(annoyed) and perhaps let's up that to disappointed.
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

Sorry steve123, I didn't mean to slight you with the "3rd", I just didn't remember straight!!

Point's the same though, you stayed focused and didn't let anything toss your game. That kind of mental attitude is main thing I am currently working on improving in my training!

As to the match in reference, I think the RO's did a great job and it was an excellent first multi day match. I've been to others that paled in comparison.

Consistency is very key. Having been on both sides, I have tried to be as consistent as possible when I have the pleasure of RO'ing. That said, its hard enough for all the RO's ay one match to be consistent-let alone try to come up with rules that can be congruous match to match. Every venue is different and
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

So let's see what we have so far:

1.Bolt back, mag out when moving.
2.Rifle to be carried in a manner which leaves the hands free, muzzle up/down
3.Finger is not in the trigger unless actually executing a stage
4.Range safety is paramount, if you see something amiss, act accordingly and help correct the situation.
5.Upon shooting a stage, muzzle discipline(the 180 rule) shall be observed.

some other common items:

6. The RO is always right
7 If an RO is in error, see rule 6
8.No tracers, AP or steel core bullets.
9.No alcohol on the range until all clear is called for the day.
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

1. I agree keep the NRA out and as far away as possible, we don't need a bunch of classifications, set course's of fire, or to have a lawyer explain the rules at the safety meeting.

2. Steve123 is a machine, you could hand him your own rifle and he would beat you with it.

I like having the inconsistency to a point, it keeps you on your toe's. Adapt and overcome
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

The NRA has a CoF out but it's more carbine oriented, and out to 500Y.

The NRA affiliation can be very useful for getting new matches and programs started at gun clubs. You can then go outlaw once your feet are in the door, so there are situations where it's useful.

For instance - Having match staff that are NRA certified RSO's (an easy 1 day class) can go a LONG way in swaying a membership body at a gun club toward permitting the match.

To that end, I don't want one set of rules. I want matches with different flavors, different CoF's, different standards of success, and different guns. We can all vote with our feet.

Bolt open, mag out sounds fine at first, but what about top loaders? A lot of people shoot them and are effective.

Mag changes and forced reloads while you are on the gun during an engagement are not the same tactically as an "unload 'n show clear" of the rifle as soon as you are finished engaging a target because you are on your way to a different one.

In matches we mandate a lifted and unlocked bolt on BA when moving or displacing position (like moving between barricade points).

Muzzle and trigger discipline need to be enforced always, but as far as the rifle's firing condition, I hold out that this is perfectly safe, and is consistent with established standards.

It's up to the facility and the MD to set up the safety rules according to the risk management that they deem appropriate. If a certain match requires the gun totally empty and a chamber flag in, then that's what you do.

If a competitor is that much of a chicken noodle hoagie that extensive protocols are necessary just to avoid a catastrophe, that's a different problem.

--Fargo007
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

I kinda enjoy the total difference in venues. The matches will go away if someone comes to a guys place and tells him how to run his match. Directors run matches with rules that are comfortable to them. Thats just it. Or it will revert back to a bunch of guys on the range/farm.
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jon Lester</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Directors run matches with rules that are comfortable to them. </div></div>

Even director's don't ignore the basics. The list will get at the ones that are recognized as basic. A match that is advertised to the public recognizes the base set, whatever it eventually will be called, perhaps like a movie rating.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fargo007</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Bolt open, mag out sounds fine at first, but what about top loaders? A lot of people shoot them and are effective.
</div></div>

Same should apply, no ammo in the well. Since the advent of the mag-fed bolt-action, perhaps this type of rifle should go the way of cap and ball.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fargo007</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Muzzle and trigger discipline need to be enforced always, but as far as the rifle's firing condition, I hold out that this is perfectly safe, <span style="font-weight: bold">and is consistent with established standards. </span>[empahsis added]

</div></div>

Just spurring discussion on this, and trying to find out what these secret established standards actually are><span style="text-decoration: line-through">limp</span> wet noodle standing by...
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

Expounding on the movie rating idea:

Yeah, the match is being held as an 'R'
or
This year they've designed it as 'G' to speed things up.

etc.

A particular rating could mean just about anything, but it is established. Even something like "contains four 'R' rating stages so be prepared.
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps



I agree with Jon Lester on all counts.

People seem not to like the NRA rules but how do you think they got that way? Well-intentioned people thinking they know better than everyone else trying to impose rules on others.

Vote with your feet

Also IMHO the reason we are comfortable with guys running and gunning with AR and aks but not bolt guns is that there are a shocking number of bolt guns out there that you can discharge without touching the trigger (eg by flipping the safety on rem700 or by just banging the stocks on bubbad trigger jobs)
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

Safety is the only thing that should be standard at matches as far as rules. Match directors should be free to make up their own rules as long as the safety of the shooter is not in jeopardy.
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

No Thanks ! I shoot matches all over the US because I like the Variety. None are the same, Some are Wildly dif. Some have high hit %, some Low. Standard Rules would Suck.
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Safety is the only thing that should be standard at matches as far as rules. Match directors should be free to make up their own rules as long as the safety of the shooter is not in jeopardy. </div></div>

That's the point of this thread/topic. There is no standard. The unique particulars to a match should not be an issue unless safety is compromised.
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hypertex</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jon Lester</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Directors run matches with rules that are comfortable to them. </div></div>

Even director's don't ignore the basics. The list will get at the ones that are recognized as basic. A match that is advertised to the public recognizes the base set, whatever it eventually will be called, perhaps like a movie rating.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fargo007</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Bolt open, mag out sounds fine at first, but what about top loaders? A lot of people shoot them and are effective.
</div></div>

Same should apply, no ammo in the well. Since the advent of the mag-fed bolt-action, perhaps this type of rifle should go the way of cap and ball.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fargo007</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Muzzle and trigger discipline need to be enforced always, but as far as the rifle's firing condition, I hold out that this is perfectly safe, <span style="font-weight: bold">and is consistent with established standards. </span>[empahsis added]

</div></div>

Just spurring discussion on this, and trying to find out what these secret established standards actually are><span style="text-decoration: line-through">limp</span> wet noodle standing by... </div></div>

So anyone that doesn't have a magazine fed bolt action rifle shouldn't be allowed to compete.

Got it. What a great idea. I am surprised more match directors haven't caught on.

Since when is unlocking the bolt unless you are on target "secret?" It's commonly taught as a preferred method to the use of the safety on bolt action rifles for reasons others have since pointed out.

Best of luck,

--Fargo007
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

I'm trying to foster a discussion here. I comment to elicit discussion.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fargo007</div><div class="ubbcode-body">T
...
Bolt open, mag out sounds fine at first, but what about top loaders? A lot of people shoot them and are effective.
...
</div></div>

You actually brought it up
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

'Cover safe' and/or safety-on finger-out for autos might work as an alternative to bolt-up mag-out, but a minimum of training would be required for match participation.

I'm a veteran of the IPSC USA vs USPSA wars of the 80's, and because of that I'm with John and Rob and Lindy.
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

I see Brunos point(original point) being on a platform with a bunch of different holes in it, while moving from position to position(which only the gun really moves) that its ridiculous to show empty on a semi-auto.

On the other hand I agree with Lowlight on the way he said, "Speed is the biggest threat to safety, when you push people faster that is where and when the mistakes happen" and its not neccesarily the match pushing the individual faster its the shooter thinking he needs that extra 1/10th of a second. I'm not gonna mention names, but one of the countrys top shooters got DQ'd from my match because he tried going to quick, he ND'd and was gone. It was unfortunate because he is such a good guy, but the rules apply to everyone.
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

Bolt open, loaded mag in is inherently safer than a semi with the bolt help open.

A boltgun with the bolt open cannot be bumped in such a way as to make the bolt go forward into battery chambering a live round.

Not so with the semi (of an AR design for sure, and any other that use a small lever to hold the bolt back against spring tension).

-that's pretty much why the mags have to come out.


I advocate muzzle discipline and trigger finger discipline at all times. I am personally OK with semi's having a chambered round, safety on and finger out of trigger guard as long as muzzle discipline is maintained, but I only have input on one of the matches around here, and even there its limited.
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

OH yeah, FARGO, the NRA has no business trying to tell us how to run our matches. Keep them out!! Theres a reason why all the NRA sports are starting to become antiquated, i.e. smallbore/olympic pistol/standard high power.....
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

ND = DQ added to the core list

How about:

There shall be no live round in front of the bolt when...

Does this sound platform neutral enough?
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hypertex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ND = DQ added to the core list

How about:

There shall be no live round in front of the bolt when...

Does this sound platform neutral enough? </div></div>

No cause when the bolt is back on any weapon and anything in the magazine, there is a round in front of it ...... ready to be picked up and chambered.
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scottmilk9</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OH yeah, FARGO, the NRA has no business trying to tell us how to run our matches. Keep them out!! Theres a reason why all the NRA sports are starting to become antiquated, i.e. smallbore/olympic pistol/standard high power..... </div></div>

Not what I said. Please re-examine my remarks about the NRA and the narrowly useful context in which I bring them up.

I think the reason those sports are failing is that they are infected with hoardes of people who drive others away with their attitude and conduct, and it has actually less to do with the sports themselves.

Precision comps are by far the safest I have seen.



OP:

I will run my matches the way I want, consistent with the rules the facility imposes. Others are equally free to do the same. Unless I'm shooting in their match, I don't care.

Sobr lays it out well. It strains credulity to guard against the circumstance that an opened bolt action rifle will suddenly close and lock unintentionally, forcing a round into the chamber and firing it.

Yes - I brought up the question of top loaders in the context of "bolt up mag out." Your response was that the rifles should be rendered extinct which I had to struggle to take seriously.

Was that statement serious, or was that left handed humor?

--Fargo007
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Outsy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
No cause when the bolt is back on any weapon and anything in the magazine, there is a round in front of it ...... ready to be picked up and chambered. </div></div>

Plenty of non-removable-magazine bolt actions compete successfully. So when the conditions are "bolt back, mag out," there can be no rounds in the well of the top loaders either. Thus the wording "no live round in front of the bolt."
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fargo007</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scottmilk9</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OH yeah, FARGO, the NRA has no business trying to tell us how to run our matches. Keep them out!! Theres a reason why all the NRA sports are starting to become antiquated, i.e. smallbore/olympic pistol/standard high power..... </div></div>

Not what I said. Please re-examine my remarks about the NRA and the narrowly useful context in which I bring them up.

I think the reason those sports are failing is that they are infected with hoardes of people who drive others away with their attitude and conduct, and it has actually less to do with the sports themselves.

Precision comps are by far the safest I have seen.

</div></div>

I guess after re-examing what you said, i see where you are coming from. But still don't want any affiliation with the NRA. I also agree with you about the attitudes in the NRA shooting sports. Its hard to go to an F-class match here at our local range without having someone give you attitude. They really don't like us Tactical shooters(as they call us).
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

Cap & ball = humor

<span style="text-decoration: line-through">
fargo007 ... OP: I will run my matches the way I want said:
\
Sorry, not so; that is in regards to the rule list (at the top, #1-6) Who would participate in matches that didn't administer those rules as a general base for competing.

running a match = some things you will do regardless.

</span>
Click to expand...
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

quote=fargo007
...
OP:

I will run my matches the way I want, consistent with the rules the facility imposes.
...
--Fargo007
[/quote]

Jeez, you all are missing the point. By saying "consistent with the rules the facility imposes" you are referencing the list that is hopefully to be compiled here.
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fargo007</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Sobr lays it out well. It strains credulity to guard against the circumstance that an opened bolt action rifle will suddenly close and lock unintentionally, forcing a round into the chamber and firing it.
</div></div>

No straining required, unloaded means unloaded. Bolt back, mag out infers being unloaded(but we press-check and visually check too)
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hypertex</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Safety is the only thing that should be standard at matches as far as rules. Match directors should be free to make up their own rules as long as the safety of the shooter is not in jeopardy. </div></div>

That's the point of this thread/topic. There is no standard. The unique particulars to a match should not be an issue unless safety is compromised.</div></div>

Common sense is the standard. Doesn't matter if one guy wants your mag out and bolt back or another lets you move with mag in and bolt back. Both are safe.

We don't need a governing body.
 
Re: One set of rules for all comps

Rob01... We don't need a governing body. [/quote said:
I agree that the NRA or other body is not needed or desired. The ten commandments are common sense, but eventually needed to be codified.

But promoting anarchy so openly and in a public forum! tsk,tsk,tsk
Click to expand...
 
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