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OpEd: Are we losing it? ...Or, what are we losing?

Greg Langelius *

Resident Elder Fart
Full Member
Minuteman
Aug 10, 2001
9,245
6,025
AZ
Reading a lot of the current topics here on SH, I am impressed with the zeal and rhetoric, as well as the lack of self restraint. Believe me, I sympathize.

I also see the provocation that drives this. We are being baited, and pals, we are taking it all down; hook, line, and sinker.

In practical terms, the provocateurs are voting to bell the cat. In impractical terms, the cats are taking them seriously, going out on the back fence, and caterwauling to the benefit of no one, and in some serious danger from hotheaded potshotters.

Stop talking shite.

All it does is to convince the whackazoids that we just may be a real threat after all; when in truth, democracy has no better friends than we, and if they were in any way right to fear us, there'd be windrows of their sympathizers already in the ground.

They're wrong, we all know it; and our serious lack of self restraint is doing us a lot of disservice.

PSA Ends.

Greg
 
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Most days I strive not to be a "whackazoids" yet I fear if we do only what we have always done our liberty and our freedom will be lost. I would never advocate making foolish or unfounded threats. But I do think we need to find another way if we intent our children to enjoy the freedom our fathers gave to us.
 
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I get what you're saying, but it cuts both ways Greg, and I think you at risk of falling into a moral equivalence where there isn't one. When someone says they intend to violate your rights, and then openly fantasizes/threatens to use government power to do it I think that's a far sight worse than saying you intend to keep your rights and to defend yourself.
Who is worse?
The criminal who boasts he's going to break into your home in the middle of the night, threaten your family, and steal your stuff; or the home owner who says he's got a shotgun ready if he tries it?
Do you not see a difference between someone who claims they're going to disarm you, curtail your liberty, and reeducate you, and someone who says they're going to resist this?
One side is clearly the aggressor, and one side is talking (quite openly at this point) about abridging our Constitutional rights. This makes them defacto, domestic enemies even if they are speaking vaguely of someone else doing the heavy lifting for their plans.

If those of us who have taken an oath to defend the Constitution aren't shy of our intention to do just that, are we whackazoids? Is someone who CCWs a pistol for the unlikely event that they are target for a violent crime a whackazoid? By whose yardstick?
 
Agree completely; but here, we are just talking to the choir (or are we? If we are not, they probably just count our musings as something we'd prefer they do not.).

In any case this entire field of questions is never going to be resolved with a keyboard, and throwing gasoline around next to an open flame can tend to become inflammatory.

If that's what we seek, then we are fools; and they hold the moral high ground because we cede it to them willingly.

Of course there are differences, but it's not about the differences, it's about how one chooses to resolve them. That is never going to happen on this Internet forum, or any other.

Consider what LL's byline about the words of Frank Outlaw is really saying.

One may be allow oneself to be shaped by their own words, or choose to shape them judiciously in the first instance. The least said is the best said, and recognizing that talk has very limited effect, perhaps saying nothing holds the greatest eloquence.

Were I to be wary of another it would not be the one who babbles; it would be the one who watches me closely, and says nothing. Someone is always watching us, saying nothing.

They can only hurt you if you let them; perhaps especially in this context.

The right of free speech includes the right to remain silent; which some say is golden.

Greg
 
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Greg you need to change your board name to Professor Guru.
 
The President of the USA just had his personal attorney raided by the FBI. So far we have seen nothing to justify that. A few squeals of displeasure should be expected.


I wonder where was the voice of the Whackazoids when Jews were loaded onto trains?

I agree with don’t over react, but that does not mean don’t react at all!
 
The President of the USA just had his personal attorney raided by the FBI. So far we have seen nothing to justify that. A few squeals of displeasure should be expected.


I wonder where was the voice of the Whackszoids when Jews were loaded onto trains?

I agree with don’t over react, but that does not mean don’t react at all!
I think the point is more "don't vent hotheaded but non-serious ideas on the internet, because big brother is watching," than swear to do nothing no matter what.
 
I think the point is more "don't vent hotheaded but non-serious ideas on the internet, because big brother is watching," than swear to do nothing no matter what.
I understand the point. If I were them, when I stopped hearing the nuts cracking. I would be more concerned.
 
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I talk about no plans because I have no plans to talk about.

This set of conditions is past the point of blowing over, others will not allow that now. Let them pick up the stones.

But I am also mindful of the fates of those who pick up the pitchforks and brandish the torches. They go down with the first wave.

The cooler heads prevail.

I make no plans because von Clausewitz got it right on the first try. Plans are all, always doomed to fail, very near the outset.

The only plan that works is to have no plan; but to have a goal, be vigilant, and be flexible. That's a plan real people can handle.

What I talk about, I do so openly, because common sense is a threat to no one.

Be kind, be resolute, and seek resolution.

...Or sit at the keyboard, talk tough, and see what that buys the rest of us.

'They' talk tough because that's all 'they' have..., talk. When you have right on your side, you can afford to be doing all the listening; and be sure to listen, to all of it.

Arguing with fools only tires you out, tending to annoy the fools even worse; and they're already bad enough as they are.

I don't care how may ways it cuts. The cuts are just a distraction. They perpetuate the fallacy that internet forums actually solve real problems.

We are not here to solve such problems; that must take place elsewhere. Trying to do that here anyway serves us poorly.

Greg
 
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This is exactly why I ghosted Facebook. My patience was waxing thin of the constant bell ringing.

I now look for leadership by example from the newly elected and am found wanting.

At this point I’m debating on next move, or preparing for Lexington pt II.

If it were not for my young family, I would be longing for the time to cut fence, and sort some bastards out.

I pray it can be fixed with means of democracy, but I comprehend that institution has been overrun, and is being used against us.

So, I’ll wait quietly.

“For I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man”

-Jefferson-


Bender.
 
Misfortune never comes at a convenient moment.

When all the choices are unconscionable, it is better to respond than to act out of hand.

Have a conscionable response at hand.

...And I'm talking far too much...

Greg
 
Lon Hourichi did?

Lavoy Finicum is dead.....

Where is it enough?

I’m not looking for blood. Im looking for leadership to counter this full court press against our constitution.

When is it enough? Not a rhetorical question.

I’m truly wondering......
 
What happens when civil response falls on deaf ears? What options are left?
I don’t think you could organize and plan a Rebellion easily. They own all comms. A spontaneous uprising is the only way it would work.

And People will suffer as long as it’s sufferable.
 
Lon Hourichi did?

Lavoy Finicum is dead.....

Where is it enough?

I’m not looking for blood. Im looking for leadership to counter this full court press against our constitution.

When is it enough? Not a rhetorical question.

I’m truly wondering......


You are right. The issue as I see it is that there is no point in drawing a red line, because your red line is not going to be the same as anyone elses, and even if it were telling them where it is only give them a tool to use against you. A better policy, be the change you want. Work to elect the people who believe in freedom. Become successful in your own life. Help others succeed, then they will have something worth fighting along side of us for. I mean fighting in a metaphorical sense and in a sense of winning elections.
 
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How dangerous is "DANGEROUS"? What speech will prick the ears of those who watch us and send them forth to knock on (break down) our doors in the dead of night? How careful do we have to be? No more metaphor or literary devices that the intentionally ignorant could misconstrue as "threats of violence"? This is real thought police stuff.

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

How dangerous is that? Is that "hate speech"? I have literally seen every and any conservative opinion branded as "hate speech" now. Is anyone triggered by that oath? Are the secret police triggered? What does it take to trigger them?

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America
and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation
under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."


Anyone else? How many more did I just trigger? Is it hate speech for me to be discussing the concept of a "trigger", since it's gun related and a symptom of my cisnormative, whitepreviledgegulit? Did you see what I did there? Did you see how I acknowledged the existence of a higher power in both of those? I'll bet that makes a lot of:

giphy.gif


I've seen no plans. I seen no stated intentions other than to live our oaths, and fight within the system to preserve our liberty and our way of life. We are the only people, ever, to pledge our allegiance and sacred honor not to a race of people, or a piece of land, or a king, or a government, but to a document. We swear to a set of ideas about the value of each and every unique individual human life, the rights we enjoy to live in liberty, and to a set of ideals to reach for as we perfect our Republic. When THAT becomes "hate speech" it will be time to stop talking. Which of these are NOT under attack from the left?

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment II
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Amendment III
No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

Amendment VII
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

That last one has been in smoldering ruins for 100 years. Best I can tell they're not trying to quarter anyone in your house, but that could change quickly...

No plans, no schemes, no OPSEC required. What am I going to do? Pretty much nothing if we're talking about anything outside of voting and speaking, but if my opinions get branded hate speech then what? We are racing, RACING to civil war. Moral absolutism is always dangerous, even when it is actually moral. When it is immoral or neutral pretending to be moral it is doubly so. When the ends justify the means bad things happen quickly, and that is literally where we are. The left doesn't care about the process, or the rule of law, or anything. They only care about how the feel and reality be damned.
 
What am I supposed to do
If I want to talk about peace and understanding
But you only understand the language of the sword
What if I want to make you understand that the path you chose leads to downfall
But you only understand the language of the sword
What if I want to tell you to leave me and my beloved ones in peace
But you only understand the language of the sword

I let the blade do the talking...
So my tongue shall become iron
And my words the mighty roar of war
Revealing my divine anger´s arrow shall strike

All action for the good of all
I see my reflection in your eyes
But my new age has just begun

The sword is soft
In the fire of the furnace
It hungers to be hit
And wants to have a hundred sisters
In the coldest state of their existence
They may dance the maddest
In the morass of the red rain

Beloved brother enemy
I sing my sword song for you
The lullaby of obliteration
So I can wake up with a smile
And bliss in my heart
And bliss in my heart
And bliss in my heart

Coexistence, Conflict, combat
Devastation, regeneration, transformation
That is the best I can do for you

I see a grey gloom on the horizon
That promises a powerful sun to rise
To melt away all moons
It will make the old fires of purification
Look like dying embers
Look like dying embers
Look like dying embers


-Krigsgaldr-
 
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I am just so pleased to see how well my message has been received.

What part of "Stop talking shite" are you people having so much trouble understanding?

You deserve what you bring down on all our heads, and I guess I do too, for posting this topic.

Greg

PS Maybe if the Mods WOULD PLEASE simply lock the thread, it will stop. Probably not.

I don't know how many of our resident firebrands have actually had to survive a shooting war. I know for a fact that if they had seen what I've seen, they'd be putting on the brakes here.

Ignorance kills.
 
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It is absolutely crucial for the left to act first.

We of the.......not right, not center, not left.......just concerned about rule of law and living in a Republic that values the individual and abides by the Constitution must convince the great middle of the bell curve that their best interests are not served by the outlier on the left or their allies on the right outlier.

Let them keep talking as every time they do lately they expose a little of who they are.

In their frustration they are going to act.

It will be a final act.
 
If a private company is able to purchase private information from Facebook in order to "Understand you as a consumer". You can be quite sure that the Feds are doing the same, especially on this, and other, gun forums. I wouldn't be so quick to post comments or statements that can be construed as threats to anyone or anything. Be sure there is an agent for the anti gunners who is tallying the threats. Be sure they will be used against you/us.

What is it they say about the Tier One units? "Quiet professionals"? Well we could all take a lesson from them (well some of them). They know they are elite, they don't need to post it on forums or on facebook. They don't need to prove it. They know it for themselves. L

Before you go pointing fingers at the left or the right you need to make sure your house is in order. You need to carefully review the information before you. You also need to be armed with the knowledge that the Democrats and Republicans both benefit when a you say "I hate liberals" or "I hate conservatives". The balance of power is only in balance when conservatives and liberals dislike each other to the point that one will not listen to the other. You can see it here on this forum. If someone disagrees with what I say they call me a liberal (which couldn't be farther from the truth).

We do a disservice when we refuse to sit down with one another and have two way conversations. When this happens we lose.

(Que someone calling me a liberal...LOL)
 
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If a private company is able to purchase private information from Facebook in order to "Understand you as a consumer". You can be quite sure that the Feds are doing the same, especially on this, and other, gun forums. I wouldn't be so quick to post comments or statements that can be construed as threats to anyone or anything. Be sure there is an agent for the anti gunners who is tallying the threats. Be sure they will be used against you/us.

What is it they say about the Tier One units? "Quiet professionals"? Well we could all take a lesson from them (well some of them). They know they are elite, they don't need to post it on forums or on facebook. They don't need to prove it. They know it for themselves. L

Before you go pointing fingers at the left or the right you need to make sure your house is in order. You need to carefully review the information before you. You also need to be armed with the knowledge that the Democrats and Republicans both benefit when a you say "I hate liberals" or "I hate conservatives". The balance of power is only in balance when conservatives and liberals dislike each other to the point that one will not listen to the other. You can see it here on this forum. If someone disagrees with what I say they call me a liberal (which couldn't be farther from the truth).

We do a disservice when we refuse to sit down with one another and have two way conversations. When this happens we lose.

(Que someone calling me a liberal...LOL)

Go to a left web site.

Their threats are not couched in poetry or parable.

Shit members of Congress have wished physical harm openly on the President.

But it is good they speak
 
I get it Greg. We are echoing here.
But this is how change starts.

I do not want war.

But they only understand the language of the sword.

Those who pound their swords into plowshares, will be subject to those who didn’t.

I know you know this.

I struggle with that as well.
 
If a private company is able to purchase private information from Facebook in order to "Understand you as a consumer". You can be quite sure that the Feds are doing the same, especially on this, and other, gun forums. I wouldn't be so quick to post comments or statements that can be construed as threats to anyone or anything. Be sure there is an agent for the anti gunners who is tallying the threats. Be sure they will be used against you/us.

What is it they say about the Tier One units? "Quiet professionals"? Well we could all take a lesson from them (well some of them). They know they are elite, they don't need to post it on forums or on facebook. They don't need to prove it. They know it for themselves. L

Before you go pointing fingers at the left or the right you need to make sure your house is in order. You need to carefully review the information before you. You also need to be armed with the knowledge that the Democrats and Republicans both benefit when a you say "I hate liberals" or "I hate conservatives". The balance of power is only in balance when conservatives and liberals dislike each other to the point that one will not listen to the other. You can see it here on this forum. If someone disagrees with what I say they call me a liberal (which couldn't be farther from the truth).

We do a disservice when we refuse to sit down with one another and have two way conversations. When this happens we lose.

(Que someone calling me a liberal...LOL)

You describe healthy discourse.

What if the other side refuses to discourse.

Despite all the talk of "resistance" to Obam he got just about everything he wanted.

The "resistance" wont even say yes now when offered more than what they ask for.
 
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If there is an "enemy" here it is not in the political camps.

Barbarians act like barbarians why should we be shocked by that.

The enemy IS the media.

Given great responsibility based on the principle they report neutral facts they have become the harmful antagonizer with a decided bias toward one of the barbarian camps.

Because of this there is no reason for one of the barbarians to even feign honesty.

They know they can do or say whatever and the watchdog will give them favorable propaganda.

If things go hot it will fall entirely on the shoulders of the media for not doing their job and exposing the crimes and hypocrisy, emboldening those that see to destroy the Republic.

Blame it perhaps on the believers in law for not providing a similar propaganda machine but the idea of such is a basrtardization of what the First Amendment acknowledges.

A moral and Just people is a non negotiable requirement.........
 
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You describe healthy discourse.

What if the other side refuses to discourse.

Despite all the talk of "resistance" to Obam he got just about everything he wanted.

The "resistance" wont even say yes now when offered more than what they ask for.

Brother I hear you! I know of what you speak. I've been in the midst of liberals (Family) as the speak ill of the POTUS... etc. I've corrected them, and I've been told "you're watching too much Fox News" and "You're brainwashed by Rush". And, I don't have a good answer for you. I do know that the discussion of violence on an open forum is not the solution. I'm totally down for a counter protest, as long as its civil.

I've said this once a day everyday for the last 20 years. Conservatives have a serious PR issue. Why, because we are not reaching the younger audience. Look at the people that represent us they are not hip and cool. They struggle to draw the younger crowd. They defiantly don't get the press. A huge step forward would be a fresher younger face of the NRA.
 
By now we know the media for who they are.

Let them bray.

Veer, when you come out and bait honest and well meaning individuals, you make it clear your time here is past.

For me, you end now. You are ignored.

Greg
 
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By now we know the media for who they are.

Let them bray.

Veer, when you come out and bait honest and well meaning individuals, you make it clear your time here is past.

For me, you end now. You are ignored.

Greg

Oh, teh woes is me. Your struggle was then, and in the RVN, and ours may well be here, at home, real damned soon, and to preserve the only form of government that I recognize as valid. Anything less, and you might as well mount the AAA with Hanoi Jane. We don't want it, we don't want to see it, but we will support and defend the Constitution if need be.
 
When is it enough?

It's enough when folks like you and I, and all the rest that recognize the rot in society, are sufficiently motivated as to dedicate a non-trivial amount of our own time, money, and talents toward the objective of making America great again (e.g., less infested by communists).

When a no-bullshit bunch of people are ready, willing, and able to work together locally to replace the local rot with good wood, we'll be well on our way to a more sane time.

So, I ask you, Bender, what more do you need to get off your ass and do your part to make your local government one the rest of the country looks to as a shining beacon of liberty? Is a leader the only thing you're lacking?
 
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Brother I hear you! I know of what you speak. I've been in the midst of liberals (Family) as the speak ill of the POTUS... etc. I've corrected them, and I've been told "you're watching too much Fox News" and "You're brainwashed by Rush". And, I don't have a good answer for you. I do know that the discussion of violence on an open forum is not the solution. I'm totally down for a counter protest, as long as its civil.

I've said this once a day everyday for the last 20 years. Conservatives have a serious PR issue. Why, because we are not reaching the younger audience. Look at the people that represent us they are not hip and cool. They struggle to draw the younger crowd. They defiantly don't get the press. A huge step forward would be a fresher younger face of the NRA.

Never thought of Bernie or Hillary as hip or cool.

Indoctrination through Dept of Ed does greater harm than Beyonce.

The establishment is aging out.

I dont think either side has thought about succession because the only way the will give up any of their power is through the funeral director.
 
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This is a war for the hearts and minds of the American people.
Most of us here feel the same about the 2a, it shall not be infringed.

However, if you look at the message the leftists are pumping out, "common sense gun control", "univerasal background checks," what they are trying to do is to get the bulk of the people, the moderates, to get on board with it. They have a goal and they are trying to sell it.

We have nothing to sell, but we need people to understand their rights and the agenda of the of the left.
 
The twitter boy pointed to California as the way forward and has declared the war won there.

If there is going to be a spark Im guessing it will occur there.

It has been determined that Los Angeles, Sacremento and the population centers represent the state.

What will the people in the other 95% of the territory say to that?

Twitter boy may be right in the sense that so goes California so goes the country.

Its the canary in the Coal Mine.

Lets go Jefferson!

All I got from Gregs original post is "Discretion is the better part of valor" and I think he is right.
 
You would think that there would be a common sense conversation, however those who oppose constitutional freedoms argue based on emotion and false narratives.

I have taken the position to have conversations without using negative adjectives or adverbs. Yeah so don't tell someone to pound sand or eff themselves.

We have to take the position of educating those who oppose. Before we hammer them with the facts and truth, we need to building a personal relationship with them so there can be a conversation. Changing an ideology doesn't happen overnight. I has taken decades for the socialists and communists to achieve the gains they enjoy today.

My personal experience with firearms with the DOD and outside is fairly broad. I can speak to all the fallacies of firearms as pronounced by the MSM, however the platform available to me to influence those who oppose firearms in any manner is non existent. Few view post via social media. MSM wont publish positive news about those who abide by the law and don't go on shooting sprees. The media will spin a positive event into a negative.

The only way to change the mentality of guns are evil and dangerous is to start with children, then teenagers, High-shoolers. While a recruiter, I use to take recruits to the local air to ground gun range, they'd watch A-10's, F18's drop practice bombs and shoot their gatling guns. We should use the active military and National Guard ranges around the nation and use them to educate the uneducated. Then will the ideology change.

So be nice and have a conversation, and if they become violent, well you know kill them ....





with kindness
 
I think that when I started this thread, I was trying to pour oil on troubled waters.

Well, the oil got there; but all it seems to have accomplished is to feed more flames.

Nothing I say seems to achieve my intended aim.

It calls into question whether my values are the same as The Hide's anymore.

I will have to think about this.

Greg
 
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