Gunsmithing Optical scanning for cnc part
- Thread starter hunter223
- Start date
What is it?
You might talk to DepTaylor here
https://www.m40rifle.com/forum/m40/28038-m40-stocks-round-2a
I believe he had it done for his M40 stocks.
https://www.m40rifle.com/forum/m40/28038-m40-stocks-round-2a
I believe he had it done for his M40 stocks.
There are scans, and then there are scans....
In today's world, most companies won't even touch gun parts as they get riled up over the ITAR certs. That is what I ran into anyways.
If you look back to the 2015 Sniper's Hide Cup Rifle we built, that is exactly what I did. I scanned a Manner's T5A stock and 4x machined it from American Black Walnut. It was a very ambitious project.
Next, assuming you find a company that will do it, you need to tell them what format you want. This is critical. Mucho critical.
Last, lean on the pen. You'll spend about $4500+ for a water tight model from a vetted company. That just covers the scanning. You want programming too?
That is really going to cost. First, you'll need to know exactly what machine your going to do this on. Post Processor editing will have to be done. That's $200/hr work easily. Tool package, work holding, etc. . . Once that is decided, a program can be generated. Just a simple text file. That portion is generally $100 hr for 3X work and it goes north from there as you add the 4th and 5th axis.
Been here, done it, and it aint cheap. I did all of this work in house. The scan work was through a grad student at an engineering college.
Good luck.
C.
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In today's world, most companies won't even touch gun parts as they get riled up over the ITAR certs. That is what I ran into anyways.
If you look back to the 2015 Sniper's Hide Cup Rifle we built, that is exactly what I did. I scanned a Manner's T5A stock and 4x machined it from American Black Walnut. It was a very ambitious project.
Next, assuming you find a company that will do it, you need to tell them what format you want. This is critical. Mucho critical.
Last, lean on the pen. You'll spend about $4500+ for a water tight model from a vetted company. That just covers the scanning. You want programming too?
That is really going to cost. First, you'll need to know exactly what machine your going to do this on. Post Processor editing will have to be done. That's $200/hr work easily. Tool package, work holding, etc. . . Once that is decided, a program can be generated. Just a simple text file. That portion is generally $100 hr for 3X work and it goes north from there as you add the 4th and 5th axis.
Been here, done it, and it aint cheap. I did all of this work in house. The scan work was through a grad student at an engineering college.
Good luck.
C.
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Thanks for the help brother. That exact rifle is the inspiration for the project. I do have some help on the equipment side as far as tooling and the actual stock making just need help getting the model to him.
A 3 axis CNC router is gonna be about the worse thing in the world to make a stock with. You really need at least a 4th axis to make it so it that does not take 4+ setups with literally 100+ hrs in a standard 3 axis CNC router.
I have access to some laser scanning/cmm equipment, but even if i sent you a polygonal model or point cloud you are gonna have a hell of a time reverse engineering it without expensive software.
It takes a parametric scan that is water tight to do this. By water tight I mean no gaps. That was the ass kicker for us. Getting the mesh file to convert to a solid that wasn't comprised of 8 figures worth of little bitty effing triangles for CAM to try and manage.
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It was made of absolute bitch...but we did it. I had to add $42,000.00 worth of infrastructure to my business to build that damn gun. Totally worth it though IMO as we (I) learned a lot of stuff from it.
The way to do this is divorce yourself from the scan rabbit hole. Get on a CAD system and draw the stock from scratch. This way you control everything. The rub will be creation of all the organic shapes. It's not easy to do. Not for me anyway. If done correctly, you can literally "morph" this thing into a variety of different configurations. Parametrics make this possible as the nodes become flexible.
Good luck.
C.
PS. As mentioned, a 3X router is going to suck at this. I'd rather get out an axe and do it with that. You'll have at least 4 setups, not to mention, all the work holding that will have to be created as well. Avoid. . .
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It was made of absolute bitch...but we did it. I had to add $42,000.00 worth of infrastructure to my business to build that damn gun. Totally worth it though IMO as we (I) learned a lot of stuff from it.
The way to do this is divorce yourself from the scan rabbit hole. Get on a CAD system and draw the stock from scratch. This way you control everything. The rub will be creation of all the organic shapes. It's not easy to do. Not for me anyway. If done correctly, you can literally "morph" this thing into a variety of different configurations. Parametrics make this possible as the nodes become flexible.
Good luck.
C.
PS. As mentioned, a 3X router is going to suck at this. I'd rather get out an axe and do it with that. You'll have at least 4 setups, not to mention, all the work holding that will have to be created as well. Avoid. . .
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100%!!
A point cloud would absolutely suck! It's an almost completely useless file format. Goes back to the dark ages of digitizing the shape. Then you are constrained to just one tool and it has to be the same diameter as the probe used to generate the cloud.
Money ahead just to duplicate the thing, you'll save a whole lot of time that way unless you're planning on making these in any appreciable quantity.
FWIW:
This is not easy stuff to do. Not in the least. "Spectators arrogance" will cost a great deal of money in the end when pursuing this. One would think that if an airplane wing, formula 1 front end, etc can be designed and built, a stupid gun stock shouldn't be an issue. It isn't if you can generate the model(s) from scratch first in CAD. The chit sammich starts when reverse engineering this stuff and manipulating the files into something else.
As I've said, its not impossible, but you will be spending some coin to do it. Doesn't really pencil out for a one off job. (just ask me. . .)
So... If you had access to a fishing rod you would run out and buy a boat? Listen to these knowledgeable guys that are giving you free advice.
Time ahead to model the stock in a CAD program. Perfect dimensions and surfaces to the best of your ability to model, which amounts to watching YouTube tutorial videos and fucking with things for a couple weeks. Scanning and converting that to a solid part file that something like Mastercam can use is a bitch.
Also agree that a 3 axis router is going to be not the best tool. 4th axis opens a lot of doors for this type of project. You don't want multiple setups and fixtures. It invites seams and ugly gaps that you're going to have to sand out. At which point you might as well be using a duplicator.
I was working at LRI when that stock was being built. Not a light undertaking. It almost didn't happen a couple times despite the infrastructure available. Not gonna say you can't do it, just going to be hard with a 3 axis router, especially if you don't have CAM software to generate code and toolpaths. I would think even if you could get a model, that last part you'd pay a pretty penny for, outsourcing.
Also agree that a 3 axis router is going to be not the best tool. 4th axis opens a lot of doors for this type of project. You don't want multiple setups and fixtures. It invites seams and ugly gaps that you're going to have to sand out. At which point you might as well be using a duplicator.
I was working at LRI when that stock was being built. Not a light undertaking. It almost didn't happen a couple times despite the infrastructure available. Not gonna say you can't do it, just going to be hard with a 3 axis router, especially if you don't have CAM software to generate code and toolpaths. I would think even if you could get a model, that last part you'd pay a pretty penny for, outsourcing.
NX actually does a pretty good job laying a surface over a point cloud and smoothing it out. That's a $30k software though and you still need to under stand how to use it, like not having to high a polynomial so you can machine it. Plus you have to get the point cloud in the first place, which for us at least was $50k+ for the scanner and software to generate the point cloud.
I'm sure Catia could also do it. I know you run Solidworks Chad but not sure if it's as good with surfaces as NX, as I have barely touched Solidworks and it didn't have any of the add on packages. Siemens CAD only.
With as many stock makers as there are out there it seems like it would be a WHOLE lot cheaper to find a profile you like from one of them. Even if you have to inlet it for whatever custom action you are using.
I love making stuff myself to. I just can't justify it most of the time when a quality company is already making what I need. If I factor in my time at even $10/hr it doesn't pan out. Now if I need something custom that I can't find, draw it up and down to the lathe or VMC.
I'm sure Catia could also do it. I know you run Solidworks Chad but not sure if it's as good with surfaces as NX, as I have barely touched Solidworks and it didn't have any of the add on packages. Siemens CAD only.
With as many stock makers as there are out there it seems like it would be a WHOLE lot cheaper to find a profile you like from one of them. Even if you have to inlet it for whatever custom action you are using.
I love making stuff myself to. I just can't justify it most of the time when a quality company is already making what I need. If I factor in my time at even $10/hr it doesn't pan out. Now if I need something custom that I can't find, draw it up and down to the lathe or VMC.
Now that people have discussed the inherit problems with the idea. I say more power to you if you want to make stocks with a 3 axis wood router, but you know the issues that face you.
I think if you want to make a a stock you could possibly make this happen in 3 setups with the correct fixturing. (cut inlet, Flip to side cut leaving a 1/4" of material from center line, Flip over cut leaving another 1/4", then hand finish by removing part and hand fit bottom metal)
But, I'd say design the stock yourself.
I think if you want to make a a stock you could possibly make this happen in 3 setups with the correct fixturing. (cut inlet, Flip to side cut leaving a 1/4" of material from center line, Flip over cut leaving another 1/4", then hand finish by removing part and hand fit bottom metal)
But, I'd say design the stock yourself.
No but I'd buy some line and bait and try to catch some damn fish instead of listening to people on the shore asking wtf. I am listening to the knowledgeable guys offering free advice to which youve offered none. I'm not saying I'm going to grab this thing by the nuts and make it my bitch. I'm not being arrogant or thinking I know more than the guys that are offering advice which is exactly why I asked. I've talked to Chad and several other knowledgeable people on the phone and I may be able to do something somewhat reasonable. I'm not trying to shoot for the moon on attempt number one. Just dabbling to see what can be done and what my options are. I'll post back when I find anything out. Thanks!
If 3x router is all you got and you have some room in Z, then get a rotary table and a tail stock. You don't need a live 4th for this. Manually indexing the part is fine. Just ensure that you ONLY rotate the dividing head/rotary head (whatever you get) in ONE direction. You go backwards, the backlash will feck this all up.
Biggest thing is ensuring it won't crash on the gantry moving the tool.
C.
-Edit: 86 the tail stock. what you really want is a pillow block setup. Something that will hold the front end, yet not put any pressure on the material. If you load it, it'll squeal and chatter like no other. You want the material completely static and unbiased.
Next, look at Chick Work holding/vices. They make some very cool dovetail setups. You'll spend a little, but it'll be a better way to go. DO NOT go down the rabbit hole of using the stupid dogs and spurs typical of a duplicator. Any cnc router worth a shart is going to have much higher feed rates than what a guy will use on a manual machine. You need to ensure the part stays on point for positioning.
Have fun. Measure twice, cut once....
Biggest thing is ensuring it won't crash on the gantry moving the tool.
C.
-Edit: 86 the tail stock. what you really want is a pillow block setup. Something that will hold the front end, yet not put any pressure on the material. If you load it, it'll squeal and chatter like no other. You want the material completely static and unbiased.
Next, look at Chick Work holding/vices. They make some very cool dovetail setups. You'll spend a little, but it'll be a better way to go. DO NOT go down the rabbit hole of using the stupid dogs and spurs typical of a duplicator. Any cnc router worth a shart is going to have much higher feed rates than what a guy will use on a manual machine. You need to ensure the part stays on point for positioning.
Have fun. Measure twice, cut once....
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As always buddy, thank you for the help we do have a 4x router. Have all the workholding and tooling we need already as they've done some wood stocks before but this will be the first in this method The guy that's going to be programming is going to be doing it in exchange for a few stocks so I'm not out any money there. Received a few reasonable quotes for modeling with a money back guarantee from the metrology firm. They will produce a step file for me and my partner will program it. I'll call you later today about the surfed t5
If 3x router is all you got and you have some room in Z, then get a rotary table and a tail stock. You don't need a live 4th for this. Manually indexing the part is fine. Just ensure that you ONLY rotate the dividing head/rotary head (whatever you get) in ONE direction. You go backwards, the backlash will feck this all up.
Biggest thing is ensuring it won't crash on the gantry moving the tool.
C.
-Edit: 86 the tail stock. what you really want is a pillow block setup. Something that will hold the front end, yet not put any pressure on the material. If you load it, it'll squeal and chatter like no other. You want the material completely static and unbiased.
Next, look at Chick Work holding/vices. They make some very cool dovetail setups. You'll spend a little, but it'll be a better way to go. DO NOT go down the rabbit hole of using the stupid dogs and spurs typical of a duplicator. Any cnc router worth a shart is going to have much higher feed rates than what a guy will use on a manual machine. You need to ensure the part stays on point for positioning.
Have fun. Measure twice, cut once....
Step is ok, but I'd insist on a parametric. Steps are "dumb". You won't have any capacity to do any meaningful editing. The other big thing is making sure your artifact piece is as clean as you can make it. Most scanners seem to like a medium grey color. No gloss. Satin finish, but I'd go one step beyond rattle can. Do it in paint that'll level out well. Seemed to help in our case.
pend a little time ensuring the surfaces are smooth and inclusion free. Also know that most stocks that are bladder cast often have some variance from the Ying and Yang. One side will be sharp whiles the other is more rolled. McMillan is famous for this, drives me nuts during setups.
Fix that shit now. The scanner will see it and its a bitch to resolve in software.
Good luck.
C.
pend a little time ensuring the surfaces are smooth and inclusion free. Also know that most stocks that are bladder cast often have some variance from the Ying and Yang. One side will be sharp whiles the other is more rolled. McMillan is famous for this, drives me nuts during setups.
Fix that shit now. The scanner will see it and its a bitch to resolve in software.
Good luck.
C.
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