They all do. What they don't bring is MONETARY value which seems to be what you're looking for.
- Thread starter Zigjib
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They all do. What they don't bring is MONETARY value which seems to be what you're looking for.
I’ll give you that PRS gives you the ability to work on executing good fundamentals under pressure and highlights the need to think faster than you are shooting but you show me the professional gunslinger who has 90 seconds to build a position or two or three or five, and shoot 5 known distance targets, twice, with no requirement to hit the target in any specific location, or deliver any amount of energy, with no spotter or help from anyone, and no need for concealment or cover. And I don’t want to hear about some guy in the sixties shooting Viet Cong with a 30-06. I’m talking in the modern era.
Michael Jordan wasn’t a professional until he played baseball because sportsball professionals are good at any discipline?
The PRS matches I’ve been to (several hundred local and pro series matches over the last 4 years) are full of good dudes. I don’t see the attitude the OP seems to be concerned about. And equipment advancement works both ways. Maybe team matches in particular and stuff where you are finding, ranging and engaging with a team but pure PRS? I don’t see it other than as a personal hobby that gives you more trigger time which wouldn’t be bad but isn’t “training” anymore than Patrick Mahomes playing Madden.
The attitude people refer to mostly comes from arguments on forums. The people who just have fun don't get into those conversations much. Hell, the ones that usually bitch online are typically kitty cats in person.
Go check out any thread everyones favorite mid packer gets into. Thats the kind of impression many forums give off of PRS and guys like that are terrible for the game they say they want to grow.
It's the same as bad product reviews for actual good products. A few people losing their shit on forums can look bad to passerby.
So, I can't completely blame anyone who hasn't shot matches to think its a bunch of egos and assholes.
You need to stop assuming that shooting sports have to mimic real life to be useful.
I will ask you again. If shooting sports didn't have practical value, why do professional gunmen get paid to go participate in them?
I've seen LE guys show up to a USPSA match and never be seen again after seeing their first match placement.
To be fair I've also seen regular joes do the same after their first ass kicking.
Some people can't get over their self image.
A lot of men in general tie in shooting with their masculinity/self image/ego. It's one of the first things I mention in a class. Basically nothing about shooting is natural or instinctual. But for some reason, we men folk feel that we should be naturally good at it because we are men.
Classes full of women are far easier to teach. They have no ego tied in with shooting. They take the instruction and apply it almost immediately without much to do about it.
Men, while they still listen and try what you tell them.....always doing things like tell you why they usually do what they do. You can be sitting next to them on firing line critiquing, they'll take your advice on say their grip, but also say "yea, I've always done it like this since I was X years old, and have been shooting for so long and doing well....blah blah blah."
Basically, they have to tell you why they are good at shooting.
It's a pretty odd phenomenon.
I wasn’t generalizing to all shooting sports. Specifically the PRS, in accordance with the OPs question. But also:
Because their training departments don’t realize it’s a waste of time and they have your tax dollars to spend anyway.
I used to turn my nose up at what PRS was morphing into. Mostly until about 5-7yrs ago, stages were fairly realistic. You'd have some weird shit like swinging props every now and then, but in general, we used rifles that were "practical" and the stages were similar to real life. I won my first single day/regional with a bone stock AI-AT and that wasn't uncommon then.
Once it started morphing into barricade benchrest, I was a bit high on my horse about it. But I've since realized that you can still get something out of it that you can use outside of match settings.
Also, I had to take a step back and see that attendance was increasing. So, despite what I thought, shooters had spoken and barricade benchrest is what they want.
Once it started morphing into barricade benchrest, I was a bit high on my horse about it. But I've since realized that you can still get something out of it that you can use outside of match settings.
Also, I had to take a step back and see that attendance was increasing. So, despite what I thought, shooters had spoken and barricade benchrest is what they want.
LOL right. Like you would know.
Definitely not a waste of time and money to send your guys somewhere where someone else makes the rules. They'll learn more than that, but if that's all they learned......how to deal with different things they have no control over.....it's worth the time and money.
I approach a prop as a particular height and solidity. What object it actually is? That’s irrelevant to me. Maybe I’m not familiar with the set piece style in the lower 48.
Because it makes you a better shooter, it's the cutting edge of practical precision shooting.
The best prs shooter in the world also happens to be former marine sniper, current AMU member who when he is not kicking everyone's ass at prs, is training the tip of the spear in the US military and government on running long guns. Dev Cag, HRT, and many others. The best military and le shooters in the world, get trained by a "prs" guy.
Alot of current mil and le guys shoot to refine their skills and get trigger time. Some become amazing competitors and some don't, but they all can take lessons and skills back to their community. There is no downside and I'm actually surprised more guys don't do it.
They all have dedicated prs team/shooters as well. This weekend 2 day national match was won by AMU guy and 5th was a guy on Marine shooting team. Both really good dudes.
For years delta brought in the top civilian shooters to teach them like rob leatham ect.
If you want to learn to be the best shooter you are probally going to be taught by a civilian and most likely a guy with no military experience.
I don't think anyone ever left a PRS match being less of a shooter then when they arrived. Who cares if you are the best or mid pack you are out there shooting something and learning how to be a better shooter. If you enjoy it and can afford it go do it. If you would of told me 4 years ago I could throw a bag on a half ass wobbly two by four barricade and consistently hit a 12 inch target at 600 yds I would of called you a liar now I'm not happy if I don't hit it 9 out of 10 shots. PRS did that for me.
Only on the forums. Actual Competition is a nice brotherhood/sisterhood. One of the nicer shooting sports and most shooting sports are REALLY friendly.
No shit the brain is important. You should exercise it. Often. I used to lift weights and run as a swimmer. Water Polo/Basketball/Football was a game in the offseason, it was just a game and was totally different that competitive swimming, and yet somehow we manage
They aren't much of a professional then. I've got my ass kicked in everything I've ever tried. I learned and got better.
Again, not much of a pro if you can't take some shit talk. And shit talking doesn't really happen unless its between good friends.
Show me in the rules where you have to have a specialized gun. Use your issue gun. I;ve shot with a civilian M4, M1A, AI, etc... It ain't the gun my friend.
My attitude is I don't give a shit if I have to skip some stages/props because of knees and being old. I'm gonna push myself to be better than I was yesterday. Competitions are very welcoming and very valuable. You get out what you put in. I've never won dick at the prize table (I did get a brass marker in a free drawing). What I have earned are some skills, friends, contacts to help with shooting related stuff and a nice place to relax on weekends.
Another Example: We shoot F-Class once a week. I shoot off a bipod and rear bag at 1k. Everyone shoots some 284 Win variant. I shoot a 6.5 Creedmoor (We're in the 2ks w/o a trigger fail Mr. DeathbyDismount) and the SOB AI i mentioned. All I care about is did I improve. Get some tips on handloading, learned its probably not a good idea to short action 284, found a stop the bleed class. It was a bargin for the range fee.
To paraphrase the wise sage of the Goodwrench Car #3 "Do you want to shoot or don't you"
You have the absolute wrong idea about competition. If you are there to win, do what it takes to win. If you want to learn, go learn. If your worried about how you look, you need therapy.
And when "training" is fun you get more out of it.
1. Maybe, I see less toxic traits in PRS as a whole than Service Rifle competition. Service Rifle competitors constantly talk down other sports such as 3 gun, PRS/NRL and F Class while their sport dies. That being said folks like Brandon Green and Dan Lowe are excellent individuals. The PRS crowd is way more inviting than SR and advertises at the local level a helluva lot better which is the key to keeping any shooing sport alive. This is coming from someone who primarily shoots PRS, but also shoots Service Rifle on the Air Force High Power Rifle Team as a Space Force member. Right now there is no way to be on the team without shooting SR, but I'm looking to change that once I'm in an NCOIC role. That or pushing to get rid of the International Team which has zero participation. I don't necessarily care about SR, but I am practicing it more to prove a point.
2. A sniper has many jobs and typically shooting plays a small role in that. PRS provides snipers the ability to practice the marksmanship portion of their job in something that is much more realistic than static target distances on paper. However there are a lot of benefits to shooting paper that I think would help a lot of PRS shooters. Agreed not everything in PRS can be brought over to a snipers marksmanship job, but lessons learned, skill honed, TTPs developed and gear used can help them be more lethal with their issued gear. Honestly the military would of been a lot better off if it would have looked at what PRS shooters use for their rigs and used that to help write requirements with snipers who also shoot the sport. Maybe then you wouldn't have the MK22 that has inherent design flaws concerning POA POI depending on how you are using the rifle. If a LEO or Mil sniper cannot show up to a match and get humbled, then they have other problems. LEO snipers are the worst in my experience about getting humbled, but mil snipers are better about it. Several 10th SFG snipers come to our local matches and return to get better. Especially when a space nerd beats them.
Equipment:
Well, every shooting sport is a game and that includes Service Rifle where we have lead weighted guns to make them rear heavy, shooting coats, and gloves, but several restrictions on optic powers, trigger weights and so on. SR is heavily focused on fundamentals and you cannot be in the top of PRS without a solid set of fundamentals. Yes, there are areas where some members in PRS let things slip, but they make it work for them. Simply having bad fundamentals in PRS won't cut it. NPA, shot process, follow through, rejecting bad shots, trigger pull/squeeze are king and you need most of those to perform well. Just because something has game aspects to it does not diminish the lessons learned, TTPs that can be brought over.
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Just remind them the Army and Marine corps have dedicated PRS shooters on their team. If the poor ass marines can field a team, the AF can.1. Maybe, I see less toxic traits in PRS as a whole than Service Rifle competition. Service Rifle competitors constantly talk down other sports such as 3 gun, PRS/NRL and F Class while their sport dies. That being said folks like Brandon Green and Dan Lowe are excellent individuals. The PRS crowd is way more inviting than SR and advertises at the local level a helluva lot better which is the key to keeping any shooing sport alive. This is coming from someone who primarily shoots PRS, but also shoots Service Rifle on the Air Force High Power Rifle Team as a Space Force member. Right now there is no way to be on the team without shooting SR, but I'm looking to change that once I'm in an NCOIC role. That or pushing to get rid of the International Team which has zero participation. I don't necessarily care about SR, but I am practicing it more to prove a point.
2. A sniper has many jobs and typically shooting plays a small role in that. PRS provides snipers the ability to practice the marksmanship portion of their job in something that is much more realistic than static target distances on paper. However there are a lot of benefits to shooting paper that I think would help a lot of PRS shooters. Agreed not everything in PRS can be brought over to a snipers marksmanship job, but lessons learned, skill honed, TTPs developed and gear used can help them be more lethal with their issued gear. Honestly the military would of been a lot better off if it would have looked at what PRS shooters use for their rigs and used that to help write requirements with snipers who also shoot the sport. Maybe then you wouldn't have the MK22 that has inherent design flaws concerning POA POI depending on how you are using the rifle. If a LEO or Mil sniper cannot show up to a match and get humbled, then they have other problems. LEO snipers are the worst in my experience about getting humbled, but mil snipers are better about it. Several 10th SFG snipers come to our local matches and return to get better. Especially when a space nerd beats them.
Equipment:
Well, every shooting sport is a game and that includes Service Rifle where we have lead weighted guns to make them rear heavy, shooting coats, and gloves, but several restrictions on optic powers, trigger weights and so on. SR is heavily focused on fundamentals and you cannot be in the top of PRS without a solid set of fundamentals. Yes, there are areas where some members in PRS let things slip, but they make it work for them. Simply having bad fundamentals in PRS won't cut it. NPA, shot process, follow through, rejecting bad shots, trigger pull/squeeze are king and you need most of those to perform well. Just because something has game aspects to it does not diminish the lessons learned, TTPs that can be brought over.
Our current team CC is trying to get us back to having a marksmanship unit, similar to the 60s when the AF dominated the shooting sports in the same fashion AMU does today. The Marines are in a weird reorg situation where they are trying to get into PRS, but not really. I shot with Nick Bazzone at the PRS finale and 2023 was his last year shooting for the Marine team unless that changed.
Yea Nick and Logan shoot for the Marines but you can only shoot for marine team for like 3 years before having to go back to fleet. You can shoot for the AMU for 20 years, and both the current AMU PRS guys are former marines ( plus Gossett but I think he is a smith for the team). Nick is retiring this year I think.
It would be awesome for every branch to have shooters who can than take those skills back to the school house and units to cross breed. It's a very small investment with a big ROI.
Interesting, one of the guys who helped select the mk22 is pretty well known PRS competitor. The other is borderline a legend in long range shooting. I actually couldn’t think of a better team to have determined specs for a sws.
I disagree with you, the mk22 has issues but it’s version 1 of a sws. A lot of shit written and talked about is by younger mil snipers who haven’t been around long enough to see version 1, 2, 4 ect of a weapon system. The problems will be addressed or mitigated.
Also it’s a consistent shift therefore like the 110/sr25 it can be adjusted for.
I don’t think bringing a PRS bullet winner into the equation would provide for much in this realm. Unless that guys name is Bryan Morgan, who probably did have some insights…
I agree they would have been better off looking at PRS setups and trying to emulate most of the features. It's the cutting edge of practical precision rifle whether people want to admit it or not. I also firmly belive the modern prs rig built around a custom is more reliable than any sws out there.
The mk22 has serious issues. There is no way around it without a redesign. The fact it made it through down select and selection is a huge failure of those running the program.
I don't think he was saying they need golden bullet shooters, but they need to look at the equipment and how it's being used.
It's eye opening when you make the marketing or engineering folks for a big weapons company take a course and do some positional. They quickly understand the shortcomings of their systems that they think walk on water. I know of 2 massive companies who are in process of updating their well known sws after taking a pr class. A2 version should look much different.
The military , schoolhouse and contracting people are so far behind the times its not funny. The wheels move so slow even if they started with a modern system, it would be outpaced by the time it's actually fielded. We still have alot of units that haven't gotten their mk22 and it's been years since selection.
The mk22 has serious issues. There is no way around it without a redesign. The fact it made it through down select and selection is a huge failure of those running the program.
I don't think he was saying they need golden bullet shooters, but they need to look at the equipment and how it's being used.
It's eye opening when you make the marketing or engineering folks for a big weapons company take a course and do some positional. They quickly understand the shortcomings of their systems that they think walk on water. I know of 2 massive companies who are in process of updating their well known sws after taking a pr class. A2 version should look much different.
The military , schoolhouse and contracting people are so far behind the times its not funny. The wheels move so slow even if they started with a modern system, it would be outpaced by the time it's actually fielded. We still have alot of units that haven't gotten their mk22 and it's been years since selection.
The Mk22 has serious POI problems depending on how the rifle is shot. A whole redesign of the rifle will have to happen to eliminate something that isn’t a problem with standard R700 clone receivers in a good chassis. There was no real reason to stay away from that like Barrett did. Even if modularity is something was a requirement, that can be done utilizing a R700 clone.
How do you know it’s a “whole redesign”?
Who are you that you have such amazing insights for an issue that has only recently been brought to light?
Speaking from the experience you have at which sniper school you have attended recently?
edit I know you haven’t been to one, there are absolutely some courses that are not behind the times.
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I do agree there are PRS vendors who can certainly make products that would suit military applications. On a small scale it’s not just possible, it happens.
A lot of those vendors can’t answer the call to produce on the volume required just to outfit SOCOM let alone an entire branch. Thus they’re not even able to compete vs AI and Barret.
A lot of those vendors can’t answer the call to produce on the volume required just to outfit SOCOM let alone an entire branch. Thus they’re not even able to compete vs AI and Barret.
So much in this post that is nonsensical. WTF is the military going to take away from 30 lb 6 BR rifles set up for one individual with no thought of durability and longevity…
Even non military types know that there is only limited scope of overlap between the competition world and a 2 way range. Obviously marksmanship is marksmanship no matter where it is employed but looking at the constant equipment issues listed on this site for the national level matches should give any organization an idea of what to stay away from. Why would you emulate any of that when it could get you dead? Not to mention .mil contracts extend over how many years and have to accommodate many requirement changes as the area of operations changes. Different sized individuals, caliber options, etc.
I think the military has more than likely gleaned most of what they can implement into their programs at this point.
Of course we’ve had these conversations before and many don’t understand why the manufacturers of these systems don’t care about PRS. It’s obvious that it’s due to the requirements the military bases its decisions on and in the end you build what your customer wants if you want their $$$.
AI, Sako, Cadex, Barrett, FN, Sauer, etc understand this well and we are currently enjoying the fruits of their ingenuity.
I’m not going to have a discussion with you if your whole MO is to be a smart ass.
Dude your initial dive into the subject was to make assumptions to a selection process you know nothing about. Then to humble brag about beating special forces snipers. Honestly, what discussion is there to have? You don’t know people, the process, or the requirements or the system.
This whole conversation is ghey; just like PRS.
Really lost where I humble bragged about beating a special forces sniper. Also, having worked acquisitions before and written requirements, reviewed, and so on I’m more familiar than most on how systems are brought to the DoD.
You’re right maybe it was just bragging?Several 10th SFG snipers come to our local matches and return to get better. Especially when a space nerd beats them.
dude chill it’s a damn joke and so were the jokes they threw out to me while shooting. Similar threads
