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OT: Tankless water heaters

GBTX01

GBTX01

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Sep 14, 2001
109
68
44
Dallas, TX
We are building a new home and are trying to decide whether to use a tankless water heater, water heater with recirculator or just a regular water heater. The house is electric and propane. My concern is that since the house is propane I'd like to be as efficent as I can and not waste propane needlessly.

The builder is trying to sell me on a traditional water heater with a recirculation pump to have "hot water on demand". It really doesn't bother me if I have to wait 20-30seconds to get hot water at the tap. I'm trying to figure out if it is going to be worth the extra $3k to get a Tankless system.

Anyone have a tankless system that is happy or unhappy with their system. What would you do different if you did it over? Thanks.
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

I've had one of each at separate homes. The tankless was nicer. The recirculating system is fine but sometimes you want cold water (brushing your teeth or a glass to drink) and the only thing in the lines is water that is 105+. I'd go with the tankless.
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

thankless I installed mine myself 2 years ago it cut my gas bill quite a bit and I don't run out of hot water. mine is a rheem
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

Tankless is the way to go but Id get some more prices...2K is 2much.
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

We have an eternal tankless and it rocks, best shower ever.

Just make sure the heads are high output, we originally had low output heads and it would drop off, we went to higher output and it was perfect.
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

2K is way over price I found mine for $1500 in home depot so I started looking on line and ordered the exact same one NEW! same model # output every thing for $650
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

I was looking at water heaters...Amazon had a 50 gallon tankless style replacement for less than $500. The builder is trying to get you to buy more so he can mark it up - the only difference between electric tankless and tank style is the requirement to run additional power feeds to the water heater, so he'll charge you for the wire and electrician's time. The builder is in it for the profit - you have to live with the house.

If I had to do it over I would go with a tankless style...when my tank style dies it's getting replaced with a tankless. The price break is about even if you care to look around.
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

During the remodeling of our house, I installed a Takagi T-K3 propane tankless hot water heater:

http://www.takagi.com/index.php?product_id=1&page_id=2

Not only does it provide hot water, but we also heat the entire 1800 sq. ft. house with it. The old boiler (84% efficiency - ack!) and electric hot water heater occupied several square feet of floor space in our utility room; the new heater is the size of a small suitcase and hangs on a wall above the laundry sink. Nice little piece of equipment, albeit a bit noisy.

I'm presently building a 2000 sq. ft. garage/workshop/office, and will be using another T-K3 to heat that area and provide hot water.

I do not know where your contractor's $3K figure is coming from, as I bought the unit plus the direct vent conversion parts for under $900 from a plumbing supply house.
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

Tankless Hot water is the way to go. Do the research, buy a quality unit, and dont look back. You will need to install an isolation kit to maintain you unit.
I have an externally mounted unit, no issues, plenty of hot water, very little footprint in the house. You wont regret your choice.
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

Do any of you guys have a utility bill comparison between the two. I'm sure i could find the information online, but I would prefer to hear it from people who probably aren't selling me anything.
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shootinsurveyor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do any of you guys have a utility bill comparison between the two. I'm sure i could find the information online, but I would prefer to hear it from people who probably aren't selling me anything. </div></div>

I don't have a solid direct comparison for a few reasons:

1) I was using electricity to heat my water before installing the tankless unit;

2) I added about 750 sq. ft. to my home during the renovation;

3) A new family member arrived shortly after the renovation;

4) People take longer showers in our house now that the hot water supply is unlimited
smile.gif


The last issue will be the major driver behind any changes in your utility bills.
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

We will upgrade in the future to tankless. The one thing to remember is to have one between kitchen and washing machine, and one dedicated to the bathrooms. The specific models we have looked at can run a dish washer, washing machine and shower all at once, but we have a pretty fair split distance between everything so one device can be placed within four feet of either kitchen and washing machine, and the second device can be placed within three feet of either bathroom. That will rid the basement of a large gas burner tank, several feet of old pipe in the basement, and make room for the next future project...small bore hvac(efficiency is the way to go)
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

Well I guess I am the sole voice of dissent! I say go with a tank. My family rented a super-swanky lake house cabin deal for the week of 4th of July a year ago. It had a tankless water heater, and it was miserable. It took longer to find the happy medium between penguin nutsack and satan's jacuzzi. Showers went like this-

Me- Damn I feel dirty. Let's turn on the shower knob to dead center between hot/cold.
Shower- You want water at 34F? OK, here it is.
(wait a minute)
Me- I guess I didn't turn it up enough. I'll turn it to about 75% to hot.
Shower- You want it at 36F? Why the hell didn't you ask for it in the first place, here it is.
(wait a minute)
Me- Sumbitch I'll bump it up to 80%!
Shower- So you didn't like 34 or 36? Well how about 150F, jackass? I don't answer to you.
Me- Holy fucktard, that's hot! I'll bump it down to 77%.
Shower- Now you're pissing me off. I have determined you will never be happy, but seeing as you're holding a pipe wrench let's see if 100F will make you happy.
Me- Perfect.
(enter shower and begin washing hair)
Shower- Wait for it...
(rinsing hair)
Shower- Wait for it...
(begin washing face)
Shower- HOW ABOUT SOME 34F AGAIN? Gotcha, bitch!
Me- AAAGH!
(turn knob to about 78% while gasping for breath and turning into a woman)
Shower- I thought you knew better. Here's 160F water.
Me- AAAGH!
(turn knob back to 77%)
Shower- Wanna play again? OK, here's 100F again.
Me- Let's get this over with.
(speed through and begin rinsing off)
Shower- You're boring. Here's some 34F again.
Me- Fucking shower!
Shower- hehehe. See you tomorrow...

The above experience was repeated every day for a week. While it probably was due to a shitty thermostat for the tankless water heater, that experience was enough for me to have a tankless water heater replaced with a tank prior to purchasing my house.
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Halcyon612</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well I guess I am the sole voice of dissent! I say go with a tank. My family rented a super-swanky lake house cabin deal for the week of 4th of July a year ago. It had a tankless water heater, and it was miserable. It took longer to find the happy medium between penguin nutsack and satan's jacuzzi. Showers went like this-

Me- Damn I feel dirty. Let's turn on the shower knob to dead center between hot/cold.
Shower- You want water at 34F? OK, here it is.
(wait a minute)
Me- I guess I didn't turn it up enough. I'll turn it to about 75% to hot.
Shower- You want it at 36F? Why the hell didn't you ask for it in the first place, here it is.
(wait a minute)
Me- Sumbitch I'll bump it up to 80%!
Shower- So you didn't like 34 or 36? Well how about 150F, jackass? I don't answer to you.
Me- Holy fucktard, that's hot! I'll bump it down to 77%.
Shower- Now you're pissing me off. I have determined you will never be happy, but seeing as you're holding a pipe wrench let's see if 100F will make you happy.
Me- Perfect.
(enter shower and begin washing hair)
Shower- Wait for it...
(rinsing hair)
Shower- Wait for it...
(begin washing face)
Shower- HOW ABOUT SOME 34F AGAIN? Gotcha, bitch!
Me- AAAGH!
(turn knob to about 78% while gasping for breath and turning into a woman)
Shower- I thought you knew better. Here's 160F water.
Me- AAAGH!
(turn knob back to 77%)
Shower- Wanna play again? OK, here's 100F again.
Me- Let's get this over with.
(speed through and begin rinsing off)
Shower- You're boring. Here's some 34F again.
Me- Fucking shower!
Shower- hehehe. See you tomorrow...

The above experience was repeated every day for a week. While it probably was due to a shitty thermostat for the tankless water heater, that experience was enough for me to have a tankless water heater replaced with a tank prior to purchasing my house.
</div></div>

You show yourself as a man of great patience. I would have removed the tank through the the bathroom wall. Dont fuck with me before the hot shower.
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

I was a plumber before going to school. And tank-less water heaters are the only way to go! And it is most cost effective to do it when you are fist building the house as opposed to converting over from a more traditional style tanked water heater after the fact.

Max
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

Those with Tankless systems. Are you using one large tankless system for the entire home or are you using multiple smaller tankless heaters for the different areas of the home?
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

Don't buy a cheap tankless hotwater heater. The brand I use the most is Rannai. Due to the fact that is what my main supply house carries. The ones from lowes and Home Depot have a lot of bad reviews.
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

We love ours. Installed it myself in 2008, no problems at all. Buy the isolater valves and do your cleaning on a regular basis. We are on propane also and in the winter the gas savings gets lost in the fog due to the furnace. In the summer is when it really jumps out at you. Had a propane tank style before so it is a fairly good comparison, but cannot give you hard numbers due to weather variations.
watch the cost of the venting pipe as long runs can get expensive (ours totaled 5 feet). If your house is a two story or a large one story you may want to consider using 2 units located near where you need them.
Our system cost about $1200 total, with me doing the work and a friend running the gas pipe for free.
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

If building a new house and can wing it I say install a geothermal system with a heat exchanger. Its pretty much free Hot water. Bought our house in May with geothermal, which is all electric and our electric bill in a 2,000 square foot home is $75 to $85 year round. It provides both our A/C and Heat.

http://buschursrefrigeration.com/geothermal/the-waterless-geothermal-vertical-loop/
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

FWIW, I work for a utility co. I'd go with the tankless in a heartbeat.
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Smith97z71</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If building a new house and can wing it I say install a geothermal system with a heat exchanger. Its pretty much free Hot water. Bought our house in May with geothermal, which is all electric and our electric bill in a 2,000 square foot home is $75 to $85 year round. It provides both our A/C and Heat.

http://buschursrefrigeration.com/geothermal/the-waterless-geothermal-vertical-loop/ </div></div>

That's not a bad idea when you buy a existing home with Geo. To install Geo new the increase of cost to install takes about 20 years to recover. My HVAC contractor informed me of this. Which is odd seeing how his specialty is GEO thermal.

Do you live in a warmer climate? I have built a bunch of house with Geo and none of them have electric bills that cheap.
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

My brother had a tankless, due to windstorms last year he lost power to his home for a few days, the tankless water heater didn't work. It runs on natural gas, but the tankless needs electricity to operate. He went back to a 50 gallon tank after the tankless started giving him problems,it was about 6 years old.
He also likes having a 50 gallon water supply in case of emergencies.
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wdebo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Smith97z71</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If building a new house and can wing it I say install a geothermal system with a heat exchanger. Its pretty much free Hot water. Bought our house in May with geothermal, which is all electric and our electric bill in a 2,000 square foot home is $75 to $85 year round. It provides both our A/C and Heat.

http://buschursrefrigeration.com/geothermal/the-waterless-geothermal-vertical-loop/ </div></div>

That's not a bad idea when you buy a existing home with Geo. To install Geo new the increase of cost to install takes about 20 years to recover. My HVAC contractor informed me of this. Which is odd seeing how his specialty is GEO thermal.

Do you live in a warmer climate? I have built a bunch of house with Geo and none of them have electric bills that cheap. </div></div>

I live in NW Ohio so I wouldn't exactly say a warmer climate but it has been warm this year. The unit I have is a waterless geothermal meaning that its all copper lines with refrigerant through and through. This is in contrast to the older units that run water lines in the ground and then have an exchanger from water to refrigerant. Also the compressor is a slightly larger unit than what the installer recommended. This might be why ours is cheaper probably mainly due to it being a waterless unit. My uncle has a Geothermal unit and I don't believe his bill is as cheap as ours here but his is a much older unit that uses the water
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

An other option is the high efficiency electric tank type heater, its tank and insulation design lower the heat loss to less than 5 degrees per day. Basically the water you pay to heat stays hot.

On any tank system a recirculating system (on a timer) is a nice option, even better if an additional return line is run and the cold water supply is not used.

I like tankless, as an option if the lay out of the house is such that it works as venting these units can get expensive. They do have an electronic ignition and are electronically controlled so they do need power to operate.

Check out the available energy calculators on line to compare the cost to heat using gas,propane and electric.

For me I have a Super Store tank off of my boiler.

Decisions decisions... good luck

Garett
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

We have municipal water and natural gas.

The sewage surcharge on the water bill has risen so much lately that water consumption has become our most annoying consideration.

The thought of running the 'hot' water down the drain for 20-30 seconds, waiting for the 'hot' to magically, finally appear, has brought me to the point of cringing every time I open a water tap. I have actually deactivated a little-used small bathroom.

My home is older than public electricity distribution. It wasn't on the 1860 county tax map, but it is on the 1880 tax map.

The water consumption outlets are so far apart in the house that multiple tankless heaters would be needed. Not an option.

Greg
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Halcyon612</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well I guess I am the sole voice of dissent! I say go with a tank. My family rented a super-swanky lake house cabin deal for the week of 4th of July a year ago. It had a tankless water heater, and it was miserable. It took longer to find the happy medium between penguin nutsack and satan's jacuzzi. Showers went like this-

Me- Damn I feel dirty. Let's turn on the shower knob to dead center between hot/cold.
Shower- You want water at 34F? OK, here it is.
(wait a minute)
Me- I guess I didn't turn it up enough. I'll turn it to about 75% to hot.
Shower- You want it at 36F? Why the hell didn't you ask for it in the first place, here it is.
(wait a minute)
Me- Sumbitch I'll bump it up to 80%!
Shower- So you didn't like 34 or 36? Well how about 150F, jackass? I don't answer to you.
Me- Holy fucktard, that's hot! I'll bump it down to 77%.
Shower- Now you're pissing me off. I have determined you will never be happy, but seeing as you're holding a pipe wrench let's see if 100F will make you happy.
Me- Perfect.
(enter shower and begin washing hair)
Shower- Wait for it...
(rinsing hair)
Shower- Wait for it...
(begin washing face)
Shower- HOW ABOUT SOME 34F AGAIN? Gotcha, bitch!
Me- AAAGH!
(turn knob to about 78% while gasping for breath and turning into a woman)
Shower- I thought you knew better. Here's 160F water.
Me- AAAGH!
(turn knob back to 77%)
Shower- Wanna play again? OK, here's 100F again.
Me- Let's get this over with.
(speed through and begin rinsing off)
Shower- You're boring. Here's some 34F again.
Me- Fucking shower!
Shower- hehehe. See you tomorrow...

The above experience was repeated every day for a week. While it probably was due to a shitty thermostat for the tankless water heater, that experience was enough for me to have a tankless water heater replaced with a tank prior to purchasing my house.
</div></div>

This had me laughing. Hadn't felt like laughing this week. Thanks.
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

I have installed quite a few of the tankless water heaters. The only problem I have seen is when people cover the code required fresh air intake on newer homes so cold air isn't coming in their basement. When it gets really cold at night, no one is up using hot water, and the furnace runs nonstop it pulls air needed for combustion through the vent of the water heater since the new builds are built pretty air tight. If it gets cold enough the coil freezes and cracks.

Doubt you have to worry about that in Dallas though.
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

In cold climates, tankless water heaters suck dick. We and a neighbor have them in our cabins. The tankless water heater slows down the flow of water so that it can be warmed up. So the water just slowly drips out of the shower head. To cure that problem we need 2 tankless water heaters in line. One to warm up the water and a second to heat it. Ridiculous.
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

A good tankless heater like the Takati that I mentioned will heat over five gallons per minute. Either your heater sucks, or you have a water flow problem. Are you sure that the water inlet filter screen isn't clogged?
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

I used a tankless water heater in my old home. Best $800 I ever spent.

We had it located in the bathroom cabinet so that it would be close to the shower. This turned out to be a really good idea, as it got super hot within 5 seconds of turning it on. The downside is it took about a minute to get hot water to the kitchen, but it was worth it concerning my energy bill.

Depending on how big your house is I would recommend getting one for every bathroom, and each being $800 it's very affordable. My energy bill went down about $50 every month just because I got rid of my gas water heater.
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

Got one about 5 months ago and could not be happier too early to tell regarding savings but the entire family is very satisfied... but 3K is too high got ours for under 2K
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GBTX01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We are building a new home and are trying to decide whether to use a tankless water heater, water heater with recirculator or just a regular water heater. The house is electric and propane. My concern is that since the house is propane I'd like to be as efficent as I can and not waste propane needlessly.</div></div>
As long as the area where you're building your new house doesn't have frequent power outages I'd say go tankless. The only disadvanatge that I can see with tankless water heaters is that because they all have electronic ignition systems (and require electricity to sustain ignition), if the power goes out you've got no hot water.

The good news is that you never run out of hot water and your gas bill will pay for the tankless water heater over the long run. I don't have any tankless versus tank type gas and water bills to compare, but after being a homeowner for nearly 20 years and using both tank and tankless water heaters in my own homes and paying the bills I know that tankless systems are definitely more energy efficient.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GBTX01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The builder is trying to sell me on a traditional water heater with a recirculation pump to have "hot water on demand". It really doesn't bother me if I have to wait 20-30seconds to get hot water at the tap. I'm trying to figure out if it is going to be worth the extra $3k to get a Tankless system.</div></div>
An <span style="font-style: italic">"extra $3K"</span> over the cost of a "traditional" tank type water heater system? Since it's a new house I'm sure that you'll be going with full copper plumbing (mandatory for tankless water heaters), so the main costs associated with the tankless system should really just be the costs of the water heater(s). Is the builder going to be using multiple tankless water heaters (individual water heaters close to the appliances are faster and more efficient due to shorter runs of piping). Or ONE BIG heater for the whole house? For $3K you're talking about two (2) top-quality, high-efficiency units flowing 9-10 GPM, or possibly one big mother flowing 15 GPM (commercial baby!).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone have a tankless system that is happy or unhappy with their system. What would you do different if you did it over? Thanks. </div></div>
My family and I have a single Takagi TK-2 (6.9 GPM) that we had installed when we bought our currrent house back in 2003. Next year will be 10 years without a hiccup. It's works fine, (it supplies a shower and the washing machine simultaneously), but <span style="font-style: italic">(knock-on-wood)</span>, when it dies I'll probably go with unit with 10 GPM for more capacity as I'd like the capacity to be able to supply both baths, the washing machine, and dishwasher at the same time. Not that I plan to do that, but the extra capacity won't hurt for the price.


Keith
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aries64</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since it's a new house I'm sure that you'll be going with full copper plumbing (mandatory for tankless water heaters)</div></div>

Honest question - why do you say that copper plumbing is mandatory for tankless hot water heaters?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll probably go with unit with 10 GPM for more capacity</div></div>

I'm not sure that I have enough fixtures in my house to flow 10 GPM of hot water
wink.gif
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

I have had one since 2006.Best thing I ever did.I have a Rheem and it is very good.You NEVER run out of hot water Temp fluctuations are non exhistant.If I ever move I will install another one as the first thing i do.If you have company, no one ever gets a cold shower.
I have also been able to run dishwasher,washing machine and shower all at the same time as well.
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

if you have a lot of lime and no water softener you will have problems with it, other wise they work great
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: E. Bryant</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aries64</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since it's a new house I'm sure that you'll be going with full copper plumbing (mandatory for tankless water heaters)</div></div>

Honest question - why do you say that copper plumbing is mandatory for tankless hot water heaters?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll probably go with unit with 10 GPM for more capacity</div></div>

I'm not sure that I have enough fixtures in my house to flow 10 GPM of hot water
wink.gif
</div></div>
Simple. Galvanized pipe rusts, copper doesn't. If there is any galvanized pipe upstream of the Inlet valve of a tankless water heater there is a greater chance of rust particles/chunks clogging the tubes in the heater. Rust can reduce flow rate (and efficiency) and lead to premature water heater replacement (stainless steel tubing does rust). I've got copper throughout starting from the street-in.

The tubing in a tankless water heater can also be clogged by hard water deposits, so even if a house has copper plumbing the tubing in a tankless water heater may still be susceptable to a restricted flow rate. <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">customgun1</span></span> alluded to this when he spoke of the absence of a water softener and high lime content in the water. Tankless water heater companies and certified tankless water heater installers usually explain all of this to prospective buyers.

Keith
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aries64</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Simple. Galvanized pipe rusts, copper doesn't. </div></div>

Ah, I see where you were coming from. I thought this was some sort of anti-plastic diatribe
wink.gif
There is no longer any galvanized pipe between my pump and my heater - it's all MDPE outside the house and PEX indoors.

You are correct in worrying about deposits. FWIW, my unit has a small screw-in screen on the cold water inlet, and prior to that, there are two large cartridge filters (one pre-softener and one after) to catch any crud that my well may produce).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The tubing in a tankless water heater can also be clogged by hard water deposits, so even if a house has copper plumbing the tubing in a tankless water heater may still be susceptable to a restricted flow rate.</div></div>

Anyone running hard water into a tankless unit would be wise to reverse-flush it with white vinegar about once a year. A set of 3-way isolation valves greatly simplifies the task.
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

I built my new home in 1998 and put in a tankless system. It did not take long for me to go back to the old style hot water heater because I had so much trouble with it and even when working it did not compete with a standard 30 gallon hot water heater. The hot water heater I had before was natural gas operated and I could hardly tell it was on the bill. The tankless took 4 thirty amp. 220 breakers and cost more to run than anything. I do not have access to natural gas in my new home but if I did that is the most economical solution.
 
Re: OT: Tankless water heaters

I wouldn't bother with an electric tankless heater - the power requirements just aren't practical. A typical propane or NG unit might provide 200,000 BTU/hr, which roughly equals 60kW. That's over 270A at 220V, which just isn't practical... much less economical!
 
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