Over working brass

[SlowMiss6.5]

One other reloading question, figured I’d start a new thread because it’s a different topic

I’ve been using a Lee FL die to push the should back a few thousands. Removing the decapping rod and expander button shows the neck OD is reduced to .283 and then expanded to .289 (gives about 1-2 thou tension so good there). Loaded ammo is about .290-.291.

Those number are with Hornady brass. I recently bought some 6.5 cm Lapua (comp rifle) and 6.5cm Peterson brass (hunting rifle) and wondering if this would be considering over working the brass?

Because I don’t have a high dollar annealer, I don’t plan on annealing at all. Trying to get good brass life and wondering if going to a custom honed FL die or bushing/mandrel setup is worth it? I think I could potentially benefit from an ES standpoint with more consistent neck tension

 

[spife7980]

I’d prefer it only size down to .287-.288 but that extra 5thou won’t cause a drastic decrease, especially if you anneal.

If I were going to be loading 200+ rounds a month with it I would probably change just for my piece of mind, if you’re only shooting that much a year then I’d stick with what you have.

 

[hafejd30]

I load 6.5 with a Lee collet die. Run about .0015 neck tension. Otherwise I use Redding or similar bushing setups. Size .003 under then expander mandrel. Gets me about .0015 on those. My go to now is the collet dies though

Personally I think you’re working your brass too much. Down the road it will lead to split necks if you don’t anneal. But not annealing also won’t yield great results several firings in if your only moving brass a couple thousandths

 

[SlowMiss6.5]

I load 6.5 with a Lee collet die. Run about .0015 neck tension. Otherwise I use Redding or similar bushing setups. Size .003 under then expander mandrel. Gets me about .0015 on those. My go to now is the collet dies though

Personally I think you’re working your brass too much. Down the road it will lead to split necks if you don’t anneal. But not annealing also won’t yield great results several firings in if your only moving brass a couple thousandths

If did a similar setup as your Redding bushing, I would size the brass down to approx .285 (.003 under mandrel, .002 mandrel below finished diameter). So that works the brass neck about .002” less compared to my FL. Thats why I am a bit hesitant to buy a bushing die and mandrel setup

I’ve considered doing a body die and then the Lee collet but figured the body die would size the neck just as much as my FL die

 

[hafejd30]

If did a similar setup as your Redding bushing, I would size the brass down to approx .285 (.003 under mandrel, .002 mandrel below finished diameter). So that works the brass neck about .002” less compared to my FL. Thats why I am a bit hesitant to buy a bushing die and mandrel setup

I’ve considered doing a body die and then the Lee collet but figured the body die would size the neck just as much as my FL die

You’re not moving it a ton right now. For some reason I saw more sizing when I read it first. Although you could reduce it. But again without annealing you’ll get more spring back as you get more loads on it. Depends on your use whether that matters or not. I shot a lot of 308 rounds with many reloads on the brass before I got into annealing. Although annealing made a measurable difference it still shot good before that and the brass lasted a long time. That’s Lapua brass loaded on the mild side.

The body die won’t size the neck. Just use it to bump the shoulder .002”. The collet sizes the neck only

I use Lee collet with Redding body as a go to

 

[CheapBasterd]

Your'e not overworking it any more than normal with standard dies.

I started using a .289 honed Forster die for both Hornady and Peterson Brass. Then running a .263 mandrel and getting no spring back from what I am measuring.
Expanded outer diameter is .290 finished round is .291 with Hornady Brass.

Annealing + .289 honed die + .263 mandrel have produced very consistent rounds and groups for me. Im getting single digit SD's and consistently around half MOA .4/.6
Before the honed die my groups were anywhere from above half to 1 MOA. More so in the .7-.8 MOA range.

For me, Hornady Brass is outperforming Peterson brass.

 

[SlowMiss6.5]

Your'e not overworking it any more than normal with standard dies.

I started using a .289 honed Forster die for both Hornady and Peterson Brass. Then running a .263 mandrel and getting no spring back from what I am measuring.
Expanded outer diameter is .290 finished round is .291 with Hornady Brass.

Annealing + .289 honed die + .263 mandrel have produced very consistent rounds and groups for me. Im getting single digit SD's and consistently around half MOA .4/.6
Before the honed die my groups were anywhere from above half to 1 MOA. More so in the .7-.8 MOA range.

For me, Hornady Brass is outperforming Peterson brass.

I did just receive a forester die in the mail but I didn’t have it custom honed (yet). The forester squeezes the mouths down a bit less than the Hornady, down to about .284/.285.

My ES are not good, around 40 with 4 time shot Hornady brass and about 50 with Peterson virgin brass (this will likely improve on second firing). All the I can think is my neck tension isn’t very consistent and that’s were my ES spread is coming from

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

I did just receive a forester die in the mail but I didn’t have it custom honed (yet). The forester squeezes the mouths down a bit less than the Hornady, down to about .284/.285.

My ES are not good, around 40 with 4 time shot Hornady brass and about 50 with Peterson virgin brass (this will likely improve on second firing). All the I can think is my neck tension isn’t very consistent and that’s were my ES spread is coming from

Keep in mind, people greatly overestimate what they think their ES should be. For example, ammo with a 5sd will have an ES of around 30. True to life 5sd ammo is extremely good ammo. 10sd ammo will have around a 60es. And 10sd ammo is still pretty good ammo.

And that doesn't include rounds on the extreme ends, even 5sd ammo will show an ES of over 40 over long sample sizes. 10sd ammo can have an ES over 80 in extreme examples. And it's random (as in, you can't predict when you'll see someone on the far end of bell curve). Which is one of the reasons SD is a better stat.

And then there's the general misunderstanding of how SD and ES work. For example, you'll constantly see people list out their chrono numbers like "5sd 10es." When that combination isn't possible long term and is only a product of small samples. Generally speaking, your ES is going to be 4x your SD for 95% of your shots and 6x your SD for just under 100% of your shots......with larger ES the other <1%. Some people might just be listing what their chrono shows, but most are listing it because they don't realize the ES in those sample sizes is close to worthless.

 

[SlowMiss6.5]

Keep in mind, people greatly overestimate what they think their ES should be. For example, ammo with a 5sd will have an ES of around 30. True to life 5sd ammo is extremely good ammo. 10sd ammo will have around a 60es. And 10sd ammo is still pretty good ammo.

And that doesn't include rounds on the extreme ends, even 5sd ammo will show an ES of over 40 over long sample sizes. 10sd ammo can have an ES over 80 in extreme examples. And it's random (as in, you can't predict when you'll see someone on the far end of bell curve). Which is one of the reasons SD is a better stat.

And then there's the general misunderstanding of how SD and ES work. For example, you'll constantly see people list out their chrono numbers like "5sd 10es." When that combination isn't possible long term and is only a product of small samples. Generally speaking, your ES is going to be 4x your SD for 95% of your shots and 6x your SD for just under 100% of your shots......with larger ES the other <1%. Some people might just be listing what their chrono shows, but most are listing it because they don't realize the ES in those sample sizes is close to worthless.

I wish I was overestimating, I’ve seen an ES I’d about 40 on Hornady 4th shot brass (10 shot data sample) and about 50fps on some virgin high quality brass (10 shot data sample). So if I recorded a lot more shots, my ES would be even larger than what I’ve found lol

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

I wish I was overestimating, I’ve seen an ES I’d about 40 on Hornady 4th shot brass (10 shot data sample) and about 50fps on some virgin high quality brass (10 shot data sample). So if I recorded a lot more shots, my ES would be even larger than what I’ve found lol

This reinforces my point. You can't say your ES would be that much higher with longer shot strings. You don't get to pick when you see your ES. Which is again why it's a bad stat. You might get your 99% ES with two shots or it might take 1000 shots.

My point is, a 40 and 50 es aren't that bad. You're overestimating how low you think your ES *should* be.

A 40 or 50 ES over 10 shots is not bad at all.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

For example, you can take an average velocity of 2850fps and an SD of 7fps and generate 1000 random shots. You'll have around 50 shots that are on the +/- 3@ sides of the bell curve. That would be an ES of around 42fps

You don't get to choose when those shots show up. Focus on your standard deviation.

 

[SlowMiss6.5]

For example, you can take an average velocity of 2850fps and an SD of 7fps and generate 1000 random shots. You'll have around 50 shots that are on the +/- 3@ sides of the bell curve. That would be an ES of around 42fps

You don't get to choose when those shots show up. Focus on your standard deviation.

Now I see your point, thank for taking time to explain that to me!

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Now I see your point, thank for taking time to explain that to me!

No prob. We all start out thinking "well, extreme spread encompasses all my shots, so that's what I'll use." When it's actually pretty rare that you know your real SD or ES. But, ES only uses two data points and SD uses them all. So, while you may not know your true SD/ES, your SD is much better at giving you an idea what those numbers are.

And, you can figure out what your ES *should* be, based on your SD.....generally speaking. You can't really figure out what your SD is based on your ES......as it's only two data points.

Another very easy way to think about it.....let's say you shoot 10 shots. Your ES is only consisted of two of those shots. So you're totally throwing out 80% of your data in favor of 20%.

 

[SlowMiss6.5]

Wanted to get thoughts on if using a standard FL die like Lee after annealing using an induction annealer would be considered over working the brass? Or does the annealer essentially reset the work hardening clock?

Reason I ask is because I got impatient waiting on my redding body die and Lee collet die so I loaded up some using the Lee FL and ES was only 8 fps and it shot well (small sample size of only 5 shots)

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Wanted to get thoughts on if using a standard FL die like Lee after annealing using an induction annealer would be considered over working the brass? Or does the annealer essentially reset the work hardening clock?

Reason I ask is because I got impatient waiting on my redding body die and Lee collet die so I loaded up some using the Lee FL and ES was only 8 fps and it shot well (small sample size of only 5 shots)

This video should give you a lot of good information on your question:

 

[kthomas]

No prob. We all start out thinking "well, extreme spread encompasses all my shots, so that's what I'll use." When it's actually pretty rare that you know your real SD or ES. But, ES only uses two data points and SD uses them all. So, while you may not know your true SD/ES, your SD is much better at giving you an idea what those numbers are.

And, you can figure out what your ES *should* be, based on your SD.....generally speaking. You can't really figure out what your SD is based on your ES......as it's only two data points.

Another very easy way to think about it.....let's say you shoot 10 shots. Your ES is only consisted of two of those shots. So you're totally throwing out 80% of your data in favor of 20%.

And if you really want to fuck with people, tell them that if you shoot more shots over a chrono, that your ES can increase while your SD may simultaneously decrease.

 

[straightshooter1]

Wanted to get thoughts on if using a standard FL die like Lee after annealing using an induction annealer would be considered over working the brass? Or does the annealer essentially reset the work hardening clock?

Reason I ask is because I got impatient waiting on my redding body die and Lee collet die so I loaded up some using the Lee FL and ES was only 8 fps and it shot well (small sample size of only 5 shots)

When thinking about "working the brass", think in terms of how bending a paperclip back and forth until is breaks. Bend the paperclip back and forth just a tiny amount and nothing apparent happens. But bend it back and forth a lot and in a short time it breaks do to the work hardening you've done with the bending.

The same goes for brass. The more movement involved, the quicker it work hardens. Minimize the movement, the slower the it'll work harden. When a brass case is fired it's expanded very little (a couple thousandths maybe). But when you size it, a sizing die can squeeze the neck down by .012 and then the expander ball or a mandrel will bring the size back up to whatever you may have chosen. That amount of movement doesn't work harden by much. It's the repeating that cycle an number of time that'll "over work" the brass making it much harder.

Annealing resets the grains of the brass making it softer and it's the amount of heat over a particular time that determine where the brass winds up. The amount of annealing is a function heat AND time. After annealing, one time through the FL sizing die doesn't change the hardness much. Annealing for the same amount of heat and time will reset the state if the grass grains even with just a little change.

Though not necessary for most shooters who reload, if one want to have the very best consistency from the brass and have the brass last as long as possible, it good to anneal after every shooting. Some shooters will have custom dies to go with their custom chambers to minimize that movement of sizing a piece of brass and as a result, they may not have anneal for a long time . . . or not at all.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

And if you really want to fuck with people, tell them that if you shoot more shots over a chrono, that your ES can increase while your SD may simultaneously decrease.

Yea, I conveniently always leave out that 0.3% of shots will have more than 6x your SD as extreme spread. Your 5sd ammo will have an ES over 40 and your 10sd ammo will have an ES over 80......at a very low %. And we don't get to choose when that happens.

 

[straightshooter1]

Yea, I conveniently always leave out that 0.3% of shots will have more than 6x your SD as extreme spread. Your 5sd ammo will have an ES over 40 and your 10sd ammo will have an ES over 80......at a very low %. And we don't get to choose when that happens.

Now that I replaced my MagnetoSpeed with the Garmin, I'm chronoing everything. Last month I fired 50 rounds and the SD was 5.4 and the ES was 23; guess it's good I stopped at 50 rounds. Last fall, two 30 round session, one with MS and other with Garmin, recorded an SD of 6.5 and 6.2 with ES's of 25 and 26 respectively. Most often, I get single digit SD (what was my goal when I started precision reloading), but there are times like this: 6 shots with SD 13.0 with an ES of 39 fps.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Now that I replaced my MagnetoSpeed with the Garmin, I'm chronoing everything. Last month I fire 50 rounds and the SD was 5.4 and the ES was 23; guess it's good I stopped at 50 rounds. Last fall, two 30 round session, on with MS and other with Garmin, recorded an SD of 6.5 and 6.2 with ES's of 25 and 26 respectively. Most often, I get single digit SD (what was my goal when I started precision reloading), but there are times like this: 6 shots with SD 13.0 with an ES of 39 fps.

Yep. I just rand a sample sim of 20,000 rounds with 6sd and then broke it into 6 shot strings. 10% of that sample had an SD of 9 or more.

 

[SlowMiss6.5]

When thinking about "working the brass", think in terms of how bending a paperclip back and forth until is breaks. Bend the paperclip back and forth just a tiny amount and nothing apparent happens. But bend it back and forth a lot and in a short time it breaks do to the work hardening you've done with the bending.

The same goes for brass. The more movement involved, the quicker it work hardens. Minimize the movement, the slower the it'll work harden. When a brass case is fired it's expanded very little (a couple thousandths maybe). But when you size it, a sizing die can squeeze the neck down by .012 and then the expander ball or a mandrel will bring the size back up to whatever you may have chosen. That amount of movement doesn't work harden by much. It's the repeating that cycle an number of time that'll "over work" the brass making it much harder.

Annealing resets the grains of the brass making it softer and it's the amount of heat over a particular time that determine where the brass winds up. The amount of annealing is a function heat AND time. After annealing, one time through the FL sizing die doesn't change the hardness much. Annealing for the same amount of heat and time will reset the state if the grass grains even with just a little change.

Though not necessary for most shooters who reload, if one want to have the very best consistency from the brass and have the brass last as long as possible, it good to anneal after every shooting. Some shooters will have custom dies to go with their custom chambers to minimize that movement of sizing a piece of brass and as a result, they may not have anneal for a long time . . . or not at all.

Thank you for the insight!

I think I’ll just ditch the FL die. So for someone that is planing on bumping the should with a redding body tie and neck sizing with a Lee collet die, how much impact/ benefit does annealing (after each firing) have? I’m using Peterson and Lapua brass, I’d like for them to last a long time but was told by Peterson that in their tests a piece should last +- 20 firings without annealing

My plan was to put together one of those DIY induction annealers. But if I’m not moving the brass much and wouldn’t benefit much from annealing, I can return the parts I’ve bought for it and save $250

 

[straightshooter1]

Thank you for the insight!

I think I’ll just ditch the FL die. So for someone that is planing on bumping the should with a redding body tie and neck sizing with a Lee collet die, how much impact/ benefit does annealing (after each firing) have? I’m using Peterson and Lapua brass, I’d like for them to last a long time but was told by Peterson that in their tests a piece should last +- 20 firings without annealing

My plan was to put together one of those DIY induction annealers. But if I’m not moving the brass much and wouldn’t benefit much from annealing, I can return the parts I’ve bought for it and save $250

After each firing there's not a lot of benefit. After each firing the work hardness is like an exponential curve, not a linear curve. How much it benefits you really depends on the type and level of shooting to do. What annealing after every firing does is makes your cartridges size to the same dimensions after every firing (more consistency from the springback).

I've done a lot of neck sizing only with a Lee collet die and bumping the shoulders back afterwards and I've found that annealing after every firing still helps with getting consistent results for the shoulder bump. Without annealing at all, that shoulder bump will become less and less consistent as you continue to fire them. Non anneal brass doing this will certainly last a lot longer than FL sized brass that isn't annealed. But, annealing makes it much better. . . even if the annealing is done only after the 2nd or 3rd firing.

In terms of improvement in performance that annealing might provide, I took some numbers of an annealing test on YouTube and calculated their SD's and ES's since it wasn't done on the video:

Here's a chart illustrating heat vs ductility an state of the grains (I hesitate to show this as a time factor is not shown, but hope it helps):

Oh. . .and, this is me on my knees having fun playing golf :

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Thank you for the insight!

I think I’ll just ditch the FL die. So for someone that is planing on bumping the should with a redding body tie and neck sizing with a Lee collet die, how much impact/ benefit does annealing (after each firing) have? I’m using Peterson and Lapua brass, I’d like for them to last a long time but was told by Peterson that in their tests a piece should last +- 20 firings without annealing

My plan was to put together one of those DIY induction annealers. But if I’m not moving the brass much and wouldn’t benefit much from annealing, I can return the parts I’ve bought for it and save $250

If you don't anneal you will have to eventually choose between two actions:

- don't change the way you set your neck diameter. If you don't, as the brass hardens, it won't size the same way. Just making up numbers here, but let's say you use a .241 mandrel to set your neck ID....as brass hardens it won't spring back to the same diameter over the life of brass. This may affect things like velocity consistency. And not all the brass will harden the same way over time, so it might be inconsistent neck diameter in the same batch of ammo.

- keep tools on hand like several different mandrel sizes. Then you have to change up and find the right tools that give you your desired neck ID. Say you want it to be .241.....you'll have to change mandrels (likely a few times) over the life of the brass to get the target .241 ID.


If you anneal, you will mostly use all the same tool from the first loading to the 20th loading.......mostly.