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Pastor Dead

Re: Pastor Dead

Once you put an LEO (or anyone for that matter) in a life-threatening situation, that person can usually legally use deadly force to protect themself or another.

At that point the attacker's occupation, or method of attack become fairly irellevant.
 
Re: Pastor Dead



It seems to me that Pastor hadn't nailed down the 10 commandments, especially number 5...just saying.
 
Re: Pastor Dead

No chance they could have just scared the guy and he tried to run. No uniformed officers around, a bunch of lunatics with guns jumping out of an escalade. There is no way the guy could have thought these were MS13 or worse....just saying.
 
Re: Pastor Dead


Wasn't aware that that the cops were uniformed. I take back my statement. Can't blame the Pastor then.
 
Re: Pastor Dead

After reading further I must qualify my statement above. If I wasn't making a drug buy and that scenario transpired around me I likely would be dead also.
 
Re: Pastor Dead


This looks like a case of mistaken identity. I had a situation when I was driving through downtown Ft. Worth,TX late one night in a white Grand Prix many years ago. When a unmarked car with a single blue light on it's roof with two guys yelling for me to pull over. I came to a full stop with them on my left side, the passenger flashed a badge, which at that point I think could this be a fake. So I hit the gas with them in hot pursuit, has I look down the rode I then see marked police cars coming from side streets,so I come to a full stop with drawn guns pointed at me. I am told to get out of the car which I do. They then make sure I am unarmed and go through my car looking for drugs. The cops got word that a drug buy was to go down with a white Grande Prix, a classic case of mistaken identity, so I see how this tragedy could happen.
 
Re: Pastor Dead

A deputy from a near by jurisdiction told me the officers of the newly formed Drug Unit in Toccoa were only wearing badges around their neck for idenification. A friend that works for the G.B.I told me they better start writeing alot of tickets to pay the wrongful death lawsuit they will have to pay. They are circleing the wagons for damage control. I know an officer can lite someone up if a vehicle is used as a weapon and they should. This is a s$#t sandwich either way you look at it! Bad for the pastor bad for the officer's and the city.
 
Re: Pastor Dead

Problem is the officer can not put himself in a position of danger when other options are available and then justify the use of deadly force. Any good DA or training officer will tell you that.

Now from what I see from the video the officers left the position of advantage, their vehicle, during a "felony stop" to approach someone sitting in the driver’s seat of a running car. Dumb in my view and not how we trained to do things with agencies in my neck of the woods.

Now I'm sure there is a whole lot more to this story then this video, but I feel the local LEO is now starting to back peddle just a little bit, so take that for what it is.



 
Re: Pastor Dead

If you watch the video closely you'll see that the Pastor's vehicle was already backing up when the Escalade pulls up. First thing that the officer in the wife beater does is draw his pistol from his s.o.b. holster as soon as he steps out of the escsalade. I also noticed at the scene of the accident that all of the windows in the pastor's car are rolled up. Sheriff claims that officers identified themselves twice and just wanted to talk to him and that he wasn't connected to drugs.

So let me get this straight... Pastor goes in to use ATM to get money for tires on wifes car. Exits store and gets in his vehicle and starts backing out when a black escalade pulls up very close. He pulls forward a little so that he can turn sharp enough to clear escalade. Guy jumps out of escalade dressed like a thug and draws pistol. Other undercover officer walks behind pastors car as it's moving in reverse. Pastor continues to get the hell out of dodge and undercover officer in wife beater shoots him. About fifteen seconds(give or take) goes by from the time the escalade pulls up and the Pastor is shot.

I believe this guy would still be alive if these were uniformed officers or in a marked cruiser. Just my opinion.
 
Re: Pastor Dead



Not sure what the Pastor was thinking when this took place, but he was probably scared, perhaps he thought he was getting car jacked. Absolutely no winners in this deal, damn shame.
 
Re: Pastor Dead

When you watch the man go into the store and watch him go to the ATM and come back out ........ you have PLENTY of time to come up to him prior to when they did.

That young man should still be alive to this day.
 
Re: Pastor Dead

This has to be one of the most ridiculous cases I've ever seen.
 
Re: Pastor Dead

Guess what,when all is said and done.Let's say the cops get no billed on the Grandjury-what till the FBI and all that USC 1983 shit starts to happen.

You ain't seen nothing yet. You can indict a ham sandwhich in a Federal Grand Jury.Having taken part on the front lines of the "war on drugs" there is NO QUARTER-when a shooting is PERFECTLY JUSTIFIED you have critical and potential life ruining exposure on a violation of civil rights case. Add a little "situation" and Houston,we have a fucking problem.

All their phones will be tapped-you mark my words.Politicians don't get the PERP walk-LEO's do. And if you think I'm, full of shit-shoot me a PM. I've done it as a Patrolman, Detective,Detective Sergeant and Lieutenant.

ANY officer that is involved in Drug enforcement activity had better realize the juice ain't worth the squeeze.Add a "part-time" or reserve officer to the mix and it turns to a big shit sandwich. Vicarious Liability anyone?

As far as "plainclothes officer's" with just badges around their neck-are you kidding me. Shitbags up here actually use SELF-DEFENSE as a reason to assault cops-and what is worse the public "jury pools" give them creedence. ANY Chief law enforcement officer that allows "undercover" "unmarked" and non-uniform police officer's conduct these alleged drug raids doesn't give a shit about their pension or families. Shit goes bad to fast.

Put yourself in this situation, you are in your private vehicle and you are AMBUSHED by guys claiming to be cops-you haven't done anything. Are you going to submit-and 1)be confronted by real cops or 2) get jacked by some cop imposters? Especially if you have family in the car with you?I've PERSONALLY SEEN THIS SHIT HAPPEN.

A trained person would be in a HIGHLY STRESSED condition-put a civilian- especially an INNOCENT civilian in this situation and you can easily see how shit can go from bad to 15 years in Federal Prison.
 
Re: Pastor Dead

Well said Lt

I'd have been shooting back. The guy behind the car would have been flattened by my Z71 and the killer would have been on a two way engagement. No way am I going to submit to a bunch of thugs climbing out of an Escalade with 25inch tires. I am running and shooting in fear of my life. That situation is fubar. When they want to take someone they need to put on their big letter jackets so everyone knows who they are.
 
Re: Pastor Dead

Looks like a bum deal all the way around. Throw in people using phony police uniforms, body armor and home invasions and it's getting to be a pretty tough neighborhood.
 
Re: Pastor Dead

It was hard to see his badge against his dark shirt in the photos while he was just standing there, imagine if he was running at you with a gun.
 
Re: Pastor Dead

While I'll admit that this was a tragedy for both sides.....(more for the preacher...), I'd like to add that having a "visible" Badge is still enough to show your an LEO.

I don't wear a uniform to work......just a dress shirt, tie, slacks and a badge on my belt next to my gun. If I yell out, "Police! Stop!" and my badge is visible.....then that's all that's required. No where does it say that I have to be in a full duty uniform, driving a marked car to be a "real LEO".

Now.....that being said.......It's a tough situation when your trying to "not look like a cop".....but still wear enough identification to quickly show your a cop in a split second.

These guys should've used two teams.....one team that was competely undercover.....but doesn't confront suspects and then another team that would be called in to make the confrontation with the suspects, but would be highly visible & identifiable as LEO's.......it's called using good tactics & common sense.

When I go out in the field to look for a suspect on a case I'm working.....I'll get a marked unit to sit within a block of me & wait for my instruction. Once I spot my "suspect"....I call the marked unit to make contact.....takes all the confusion & argument out of the equation......
 
Re: Pastor Dead

Why couldnt they have had a black and white there to make a traffic stop and then have the task force come up. How many times a week do you hear on the news where someone,a woman or some family residence was ambushed by criminals posing as cops. It used to be you could tell the good guys from the bad, not so much anymore, you have got to take care of yourself. Also the department using a deputy that has no arrest powers, what is up with that. Looks like to me with all the lawsuit happy lawyers you have runnig around the country departments would there training up to date to avoid that.
I guarantee you if it had been the other way around the LEO's wouldnt stop until justice was served.
I happen to personally know some of the people involved in this. I hope justice is served.
 
Re: Pastor Dead

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mgd45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While I'll admit that this was a tragedy for both sides.....(more for the preacher...), I'd like to add that having a "visible" Badge is still enough to show your an LEO.

I don't wear a uniform to work......just a dress shirt, tie, slacks and a badge on my belt next to my gun. If I yell out, "Police! Stop!" and my badge is visible.....then that's all that's required. No where does it say that I have to be in a full duty uniform, driving a marked car to be a "real LEO".

Now.....that being said.......It's a tough situation when your trying to "not look like a cop".....but still wear enough identification to quickly show your a cop in a split second.

These guys should've used two teams.....one team that was competely undercover.....but doesn't confront suspects and then another team that would be called in to make the confrontation with the suspects, but would be highly visible & identifiable as LEO's.......it's called using good tactics & common sense.

When I go out in the field to look for a suspect on a case I'm working.....I'll get a marked unit to sit within a block of me & wait for my instruction. Once I spot my "suspect"....I call the marked unit to make contact.....takes all the confusion & argument out of the equation...... </div></div>

Negative, a badge is NOT enough ID.It doesn't SAY THAT anywhere. Have YOU ever been in FRONT OF A FEDERAL GRAND JURY?

ANYBODY can buy a badge. As a shift commander that shit wouldn't happen on my watch. Bullshit-that's how shit goes bad. Its one thing if the correct person gets tapped when the situation arises-but THAT PERFECT SITUATION is few and far between.

In my AO,people get jacked by "fake" cops. I'm cop through and through-and I'll give the cop the benefit of the doubt. But chances are I'm not going to be on the Grand Jury.

Roll up on me like that and I'll tell you exactly what would happen-first whatever you are driving had better have more power than my C63AMG-cause you WILL be going on a chase. I'll stop when the marked cars catch up. 2nd) There had better be some uniforms visible if you approach me with a gun in your hand.

Mark my words-Cops are going to go to jail. "undercover"-plainclothes patrol is bullshit-all the bad guys know who you are-yes,you will get lucky on occasion. But imagine doing a "stop" like that on another agencies "plainclothes" detail. All it takes is one guy lacking experience and judgement and the bullets start flying.

You don't want to be in PAtrol uniform-fine-wear BDU's and all that shit with POLICE written on it. A badge and a chain doesn't make sense to me.

Back in February, an agency close to my home had an off-duty officer have a run in with another car-they are calling it a "road rage" thing. The off-duty guy gets out of his personal car,flashes his ID and says he's a cop. Guess what-he was involved with some Gangster's that didn't give a fuck if he was a cop. The cop got shot several times and literally had his head kicked in. He got off a full magazine with no success. They just caught the perp down in Philly,IIRC, after shooting up a parking lot. The gun came back a hit on ballistics. The cop is currently in rehabilitation.

When I came to work in a jacket and tie-uniform was with me if I needed to stop someone.
 
Re: Pastor Dead

I think you misinterpreted my post. My point wasn't that simply wearing a badge on a chain is "enough"........hence the fact that I explained how we do it at my Dept. & how I always try to have a marked patrol unit assist me when at all possible.

My point was that as long as you've clearly identified yourself as an LEO, using verbal commands & a clearly visible BADGE.......then your arrest powers are just as good as a Uniformed LEO.

Now, the suspect may have a great defense claim.......& your job may be made harder......but your powers of arrest are still there....
 
Re: Pastor Dead

unless you have no powers of Arrest such as the officer who delivered the fatal shots. Why was that dude even on the streets? Kinda like a Nun getting a boob job, no fucking point.
 
Re: Pastor Dead

NCIS Officer Involved in Rev. Ayers Shooting Not Authorized to Carry Weapon, Lawsuit Alleges


3/18/2010


The officer responsible for shooting and killing the late Rev. Jonathan Ayers should not have been carrying a gun nor acting in his capacity as a law enforcement officer. That’s according to allegations contained in the civil lawsuit filed on behalf of the widow of Rev. Ayers, former pastor of Shoal Creek Baptist Church in Lavonia.

Attorneys for Abigail Ayers filed the suit on Monday in U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Georgia in Gainesville against the Mountain Judicial NCIS drug task force, all cities and county governments in Stephens, Habersham, and Rabun counties, as well as all law enforcement agencies in those three counties.

In that suit, Ayer’s attorneys allege that the NCIS agent, Billy Shane Harrison, who shot Rev. Ayers, had failed to satisfy the minimum requirements of the Georgia Peace Officers Standards and Training Council in both 2008 and 2009 and according to Georgia State Law, should not have been allowed on the streets as a police officer and should not have been allowed to carry a weapon.

The suit also alleges that Stephens County Sheriff Randy Shirley, who hired Harrison and NCIS director Kyle Bryant, knew Harrison was not up to date on his training but nevertheless, allowed him on the streets and to use a gun anyway.

Ayers’ attorneys go on to allege officer Harrison’s authorization to “act with the general duties of a law enforcement officer” had been suspended on December 28, 2008 and had not been reinstated at the time he shot Rev. Ayers on September 1st, 2009.

The suit also alleges both officers Harrison and Chance Oxner, who is the officer shown on surveillance video standing behind Ayers’ automobile at the time of the incident at the Toccoa convenience store, had prior criminal records involving the use of drugs, including marijuana, as well as theft convictions and that Sheriff Randy Shirley and NCIS director Kyle Bryant knew of their criminal records and hired them anyway.

In December, a Stephens County grand jury ruled Harrison and the other agents involved in the Ayers incident were immune from prosecution and the shooting justified. But Ayers attorneys argue in their lawsuit that because Harrison was not legally authorized to act as a police officer on September 1st, neither he nor Sheriff Randy Shirley are immune from prosecution.

Finally, Ayers attorneys allege Harrison and the NCIS team involved violated Rev. Ayers’ 4th Amendment Rights, which state Americans have freedom from unreasonable seizure, and freedom from excessive, unreasonable, and unjustified use of force.

Abigail Ayers is suing for $5-million dollars. She is requesting a jury trial, compensation for the loss of her husband, compensation for all medical and funeral expenses, compensation for pain and suffering for herself and the Rev. Ayers and all attorneys fees.
 
Re: Pastor Dead

No doubt.
And I can tell you from my perspective that some crazy asshole jumping out of a pimped-up Escalade pulling a gun and yelling "Police, stop" is not sufficient reason for me not to light him up or run him over. It is clearly threatening behavior, and all the gang bangers wear shit around their neck, clocks even. So a 2 1/2 inch badge is not enough to get a reasonable person to think these people are police when they are jumping out of a pimp-mobile.
Unless they are going to take time to put on the blue windbreaker with POLICE on it in 6 inch letters they need to let the guy go and have a uniform stop him.
The undercover guys in our narc task force all have those windbreakers. And you can bet your ass they would not be trying to 'take somebody down' at the 7-11 because most of the people they are dealing with would shoot it out in a public place.
 
Re: Pastor Dead

Simple the officers involved need to spend the rest of their lives in prison getting ass fucked by the population, oops sorry doesn't cut it! no amount of money makes up for the loss of life. The people are getting tired of this "police state" we are living in.
 
Re: Pastor Dead

I'd have been shooting back. The guy behind the car would have been flattened by my Z71 and the killer would have been on a two way engagement. No way am I going to submit to a bunch of thugs climbing out of an Escalade with 25inch tires. I am running and shooting in fear of my life. That situation is fubar. When they want to take someone they need to put on their big letter jackets so everyone knows who they are.
________________________________________________________________



X2 crumpmd
 
Re: Pastor Dead

agree

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: crumpmd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No chance they could have just scared the guy and he tried to run. No uniformed officers around, a bunch of lunatics with guns jumping out of an escalade. There is no way the guy could have thought these were MS13 or worse....just saying. </div></div>
 
Re: Pastor Dead

Maybe some good will come out of this. It's just a shame that a man of the cloth who dose so much good had to die because the higher up's screw up's,but THEY to will have to answer to a higher up some day them selves.
 
Re: Pastor Dead

You can blame this on a useless, pointless, futile war on drugs. Our goverment has been fighting this for 30 years, did we as a country not learn anything from the 1920s. Spend the money on educating our children, I drive by a gambling boat everyday and have for 20 years and never spent a dime, I drive by liquor stores everyday, I dont drink. Legalize them, tax them, regulate them, users are users. They could be sold at every 7-11 store and I wouldnt buy them. LEOs are just as responsible for esculating the violence as the drug dealers! After seeing the video, I probably would have died that day also, but if there is a god in heaven, I would have taken those two pricks with me.
I am not a cop hater in no shape ,form or fashion. I just feel our country as a whole, is going about finding the solution to our nations drug problem the wrong way. Its been 30 years and this shit aint working!!!!!!!!!
 
Re: Pastor Dead

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sgj2025</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Its been 30 years and this shit aint working!!!!!!!!! </div></div>

Actually....it is working. The question is "Was it worth it...."
 
Re: Pastor Dead

Not here.

Heck, the gov't has actually gotten into growing it themselves, here in Manitoba.

They grow/grew it up in the mines, underground, to prevent 'theft'. How 'bout that.
 
Re: Pastor Dead

Well......I must admit that I probably put my foot in my mouth with that last statement.....cuz it came out wrong.

What I meant to convey, is that I believe the WOD has made a difference in how the average person views drug use as compared to the 60's & 70's.....

But....yeah, probably not worth the time, effort, & money involved in fighting it.....
 
Re: Pastor Dead

Police agencies that I have been affiliated with have policies to avoid these situations. This was bad from the get go. Many agencies and dept.'s have gone to this style of brash "hard core" take downs. Officers drawing guns with no provocation, tackling suspects and escalating the FORCE CURRICULM. The over use of tasers is another huge issue. These guys watched "Bad Boyz" once too many times, and they will enjoy being in prison for a long time!

Walking up slow and showing ID, would of prevented this.
 
Re: Pastor Dead

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sgj2025</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can blame this on a useless, pointless, futile war on drugs. Our goverment has been fighting this for 30 years, did we as a country not learn anything from the 1920s. Spend the money on educating our children, I drive by a gambling boat everyday and have for 20 years and never spent a dime, I drive by liquor stores everyday, I dont drink. Legalize them, tax them, regulate them, users are users. They could be sold at every 7-11 store and I wouldnt buy them. LEOs are just as responsible for esculating the violence as the drug dealers! After seeing the video, I probably would have died that day also, but if there is a god in heaven, I would have taken those two pricks with me.
I am not a cop hater in no shape ,form or fashion. I just feel our country as a whole, is going about finding the solution to our nations drug problem the wrong way. Its been 30 years and this shit aint working!!!!!!!!! </div></div>

Actually, it's been more like 45 years (Johnson administration) and as usual the psuedo-intellectual bromide, "lets legalize it so we can tax it", is lazily floated as a solution...

Your clear inference is that it's okay to tolerate or encourage (lets be real here as only imbeciles {and dopers} think narcotic use would decline in such a legal environment) other people to fuck up their lives as long as it generates revenue. Revenue that will undoubtedly be pissed away to promote yet more corruption, unaccountability and further need for yet more tax revenue...

Of course it won't be your kids that will be victims of the new tolerant approach. Just other people's kids. And people you don't like very much?
 
Re: Pastor Dead

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Actually, it's been more like 45 years (Johnson administration) and as usual the psuedo-intellectual bromide, "lets legalize it so we can tax it", is lazily floated as a solution...

Your clear inference is that it's okay to tolerate or encourage (lets be real here as only imbeciles {and dopers} think narcotic use would decline in such a legal environment) other people to fuck up their lives as long as it generates revenue. Revenue that will undoubtedly be pissed away to promote yet more corruption, unaccountability and further need for yet more tax revenue...

Of course it won't be your kids that will be victims of the new tolerant approach. Just other people's kids. And people you don't like very much?
</div></div>

I don't consider myself an imbecile of any sort, however I do believe in the legalization of marijuana. You said narcotics in your post, so it's possible that you're referring to medical narcotics used illegally, in which case I'm in full agreement.

Regarding marijuana, I just don't see how it does enough harm to make it illegal. Unlike several legal things, namely alcohol and tobacco, pot isn't physically habit forming. Nor does it cause cancer at a higher rate than tobacco.

Yes, it alters your state of mind. So does alcohol. The Policemen that I've talked to have stated that it's easier to subdue someone high rather than someone who is drunk. How many times do you hear of someone going on a rampage after smoking pot? Unless you count rampaging through the fridge...

I wrote another paragraph about the possible reasons marijuana was originally banned but it sounded a bit too much like conspiracy theory so I'll just refer to http://www.drugwarrant.com/articles/why-is-marijuana-illegal/ this site.

I've got a bit more to add to the argument but I'll post it later. It's nice out and I'm going swimming.

Before anyone says that I'm just a dope smoking hippie, I want to state that I haven't smoked pot once. Or tried any other drugs. I've been around them plenty of times but it's just not my scene.
 
Re: Pastor Dead

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Macduff</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Actually, it's been more like 45 years (Johnson administration) and as usual the psuedo-intellectual bromide, "lets legalize it so we can tax it", is lazily floated as a solution...

Your clear inference is that it's okay to tolerate or encourage (lets be real here as only imbeciles {and dopers} think narcotic use would decline in such a legal environment) other people to fuck up their lives as long as it generates revenue. Revenue that will undoubtedly be pissed away to promote yet more corruption, unaccountability and further need for yet more tax revenue...

Of course it won't be your kids that will be victims of the new tolerant approach. Just other people's kids. And people you don't like very much?
</div></div>

I don't consider myself an imbecile of any sort, however I do believe in the legalization of marijuana. You said narcotics in your post, so it's possible that you're referring to medical narcotics used illegally, in which case I'm in full agreement.

Regarding marijuana, I just don't see how it does enough harm to make it illegal. Unlike several legal things, namely alcohol and tobacco, pot isn't physically habit forming. Nor does it cause cancer at a higher rate than tobacco.

Yes, it alters your state of mind. So does alcohol. The Policemen that I've talked to have stated that it's easier to subdue someone high rather than someone who is drunk. How many times do you hear of someone going on a rampage after smoking pot? Unless you count rampaging through the fridge...

I wrote another paragraph about the possible reasons marijuana was originally banned but it sounded a bit too much like conspiracy theory so I'll just refer to http://www.drugwarrant.com/articles/why-is-marijuana-illegal/ this site.

I've got a bit more to add to the argument but I'll post it later. It's nice out and I'm going swimming.

Before anyone says that I'm just a dope smoking hippie, I want to state that I haven't smoked pot once. Or tried any other drugs. I've been around them plenty of times but it's just not my scene.
</div></div>

So as an admitted non-imbecile you acknowledge the inevitable increase in the abuse of marijuana and other narcotics in the event of such legalization, and you are okay with that as long as the various governments get more tax money to piss away?

I'm interested in just why it is that tragedies like the one discussed here avail themselves to those who pipe up about the need for legalization of narcotics as a harbinger of good tidings in stark contrast to the obvious (to the visionaries) folly of the present posture of drug prevention. Is it the need to appear "above" the pedestrian masses and their group-think? Or is there another motive?

I have no doubt that some of this "pragmatism" is profit driven; People who stand to benefit from more widespread drug use are clearly among those who merely claim to be frustrated with the seeming fruitlessness of the last 45 year's effort. Add to that number the indifference of those who care only to satisfy their own desires regardless of the toll it takes on people they do not know or care for. And of course those who benefit from a distracted, frequently inebriated society of consumers of the largess of the ruling benefactors.


I see only downside.
 
Re: Pastor Dead

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
So as an admitted non-imbecile you acknowledge the inevitable increase in the abuse of marijuana and other narcotics in the event of such legalization, and you are okay with that as long as the various governments get more tax money to piss away?

I'm interested in just why it is that tragedies like the one discussed here avail themselves to those who pipe up about the need for legalization of narcotics as a harbinger of good tidings in stark contrast to the obvious (to the visionaries) folly of the present posture of drug prevention. Is it the need to appear "above" the pedestrian masses and their group-think? Or is there another motive?

I have no doubt that some of this "pragmatism" is profit driven; People who stand to benefit from more widespread drug use are clearly among those who merely claim to be frustrated with the seeming fruitlessness of the last 45 year's effort. Add to that number the indifference of those who care only to satisfy their own desires regardless of the toll it takes on people they do not know or care for. And of course those who benefit from a distracted, frequently inebriated society of consumers of the largess of the ruling benefactors.


I see only downside. </div></div>

Yes, there will probably be an increase in the use of marijuana. I doubt there will be a noticeable increase in the use of hard drugs if only marijuana is legalized. Those that are inclined towards using hard drugs are going to do them. I don't subscribe to the "gateway drug" idea. Yes, there is a correlation between the use of pot and harder drugs. No, I don't believe that the use of hard stuff is attributable to marijuana. Correlation does not prove causation. The same correlation could be made between alcohol I'm sure. Those with a personality disposed towards trying harder and harder stuff are going to do it, whether or not they're able to try weed first and then move on or not. I don't advocate for legalizing everything, many drugs have too many harmful effects or are too addicting, such as heroin, meth, or prescription painkillers. I do think that marijuana, a naturally grown herb, should be legal if someone is so inclined towards that.

You bring up money, something I really didn't touch on at first. Legalizing marijuana brings us many benefits not only through the taxes it will bring in. The largest benefit is that it will free up our overtaxed criminal justice system. The local Fayette County, Ky jail is overcrowded. How many of those behind bars are there for possession of weed?

We've all heard people complaining about felons being released from prison after too short of a prison term. Why are they released? Often enough its because the prison system is overcrowded. If we let loose those behind bars whose only crime was possession of marijuana we would free up prison space for violent criminals while saving our state prison systems money.

You ask why I would bring this up? Because while the war on weed is a waste of resources. Even though I don't smoke I could probably go and find weed in 10 minutes. Prohibition didn't work in the 1920's, why should it now? It's just not feasible to totally ban something that people are able to grow themselves.

The last part of your message was a pretty good misdirection...in both messages you've written you've said nothing about why it should actually be banned. What about pot is so much worse than other, legal, substances that it should be banned? I've laid out my arguments, it's time to lay out yours.

Just to be sure, I'm not advocating for all drugs to be legalized. Only marijuana.
 
Re: Pastor Dead

I'd be dead too. No way I'm hanging around for a group of thugs with guns pointing at me, probably yelling what I cannot hear, regardless of them having something gold and shiny hanging from their neck. It could be a Cadillac hood ornimant for all I know.

I wouldn't care if they did legalize ALL drugs. Make a dime bag cost a dime and see how lucritive the drug trade becomes. Heroin for $5.99/lb and there'd be no need to go after drug trafficers, there wouldn't be any, they'd be selling snow cones to get some profit margin back. Would there be more users? Probably a small increase initially, but I doubt it would be noticable. I've had the opportunity to try all kinds of drugs over the course of my lifetime, especially during college, but I don't even consider it, not even pot. I'm not a user and THAT is the difference. Like other people who don't use drugs, I don't use drugs because of what they do to people, not because they're illegal. I speed in my truck all the time, legallity doesn't stop me. I think that the solution to WOD is an economic solution. Make the manufacture and sale of hard drug, growing and selling pot a legal and legitimate business and the competition of the market will remove the druglords and crime associated with the sales and manufacture end.
 
Re: Pastor Dead

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bryan27</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd be dead too. No way I'm hanging around for a group of thugs with guns pointing at me, probably yelling what I cannot hear, regardless of them having something gold and shiny hanging from their neck. It could be a Cadillac hood ornimant for all I know.

I wouldn't care if they did legalize ALL drugs. Make a dime bag cost a dime and see how lucritive the drug trade becomes. Heroin for $5.99/lb and there'd be no need to go after drug trafficers, there wouldn't be any, they'd be selling snow cones to get some profit margin back. Would there be more users? Probably a small increase initially, but I doubt it would be noticable. I've had the opportunity to try all kinds of drugs over the course of my lifetime, especially during college, but I don't even consider it, not even pot. I'm not a user and THAT is the difference. Like other people who don't use drugs, I don't use drugs because of what they do to people, not because they're illegal. I speed in my truck all the time, legallity doesn't stop me. I think that the solution to WOD is an economic solution. Make the manufacture and sale of hard drug, growing and selling pot a legal and legitimate business and the competition of the market will remove the druglords and crime associated with the sales and manufacture end. </div></div>


Exactly
 
Re: Pastor Dead

For those interested...
http://www.accessnorthga.com/detail.php?n=230152

GBI arrests Training Coordinator for SCSO
By Joe Kelly Staff

GBI agents have arrested the Training Coordinator for the Stephens County Sheriff’s Office in connection with an ongoing investigation into the status of training records of the drug task force officer involved in the shooting death of Jonathan Ayers in Toccoa last September.

Rev. Ayers - a Lavonia minister - was shot and killed during a botched drug bust at a Toccoa convenience store. A Stephens County grand jury later cleared the agents of any wrongdoing and Rev. Ayers' widow has filed a suit in connection with the incident.

Agents with the Georgia Bureau of Investigation’s Athens Regional Office charged 40-year-old Lieutenant Edwin Wilson with one Felony Count of False Statements and Writings. The charge stems from false statements Lt. Wilson allegedly made to agents last Friday related to training records of Billy Shane Harrison, an officer with the multi-jurisdictional drug task force in Toccoa, the Narcotics Criminal Investigation and Suppression Team (NCIS).

The investigation is being conducted by the Athens GBI Regional Office, separate from the investigation of the shooting which was conducted by the Cleveland GBI Regional Office.

Wilson was booked and processed at the Stephens County Jail and later released on bond.
 
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