Been eyeing the Scorpion for a while now, and thought I had my mind made up until I stumbled across the Stribog. Anyone here run either in a side by side? If so, which would you lean towards?
- Thread starter TheBigCountry
- Start date
Shot a couple Scorpions and handled a Stribog. My opinion is that you won’t want either once you put your hands on a MPX and it’s absolutely worth the increase in price.
Between those two the Scorpion is the better made gun, but even it you’ll dump some money into improving because it’s still not great out of the box. CZ also has better aftermarket parts support, which both of them need.
Between those two the Scorpion is the better made gun, but even it you’ll dump some money into improving because it’s still not great out of the box. CZ also has better aftermarket parts support, which both of them need.
Thank you. What stood out to you about the MPX that makes you recommend it over all 3? It’s almost 2x the cost of the Scorpion it seems
I had a Scorpion. I did not have it very long.
Pros:
- Reliable
Cons:
- The most gawd-awful trigger I ever, EVER encountered. Twelve+ pounds of creeping, gritty garbage with a lloonnng reset.
- Recoil impulse from the small buffer spring and very heavy, anvil-like bolt was quite jarring for a 9mm
- Proprietary plastic magazines won't fit any magazine loader I've ever encountered
- The fitment of the "lower" and "upper" literally rattled despite continual attempts to tighten
- Cocking lever and innards gritty and rough
Did I mention the trigger SUCKS? I am not exaggerating; that trigger was the most horrendous one I have ever encountered in 60 years of shooting. At the time I owned the thing a couple years ago, CZ offered an upgraded trigger - for some ridiculously high price for a firearm of this type. I got the pull down to about six pounds by replacing the trigger spring and got some of the grittiness out via a lot of time with 1000 to 2000 grit wet lap automotive sandpaper, but the design of the trigger makes it impossible to eliminate even most of the creep without compromising safety.
It was stone cold reliable, though. That's all I can say for it. Accuracy was meh. Not terribly good. Or bad.
I traded it in on a cheap AR-style PCC in the same price range with which I've been far happier, despite its having to be returned to the manufacturer because quality 9mm factory ammo would not fit in the chamber. It's been fine since. I thought about investing in an MPX, but, no more than I compete with a PCC, the cheapie is fine. If I were going to compete a lot with a PCC, I would get an MPX or JP GMR-15 or, most likely, get someone knowledgeable to help me build a quality AR-style one which uses Glock mags. I don't know enough about other platforms to offer any knowledgeable opinion.
Pros:
- Reliable
Cons:
- The most gawd-awful trigger I ever, EVER encountered. Twelve+ pounds of creeping, gritty garbage with a lloonnng reset.
- Recoil impulse from the small buffer spring and very heavy, anvil-like bolt was quite jarring for a 9mm
- Proprietary plastic magazines won't fit any magazine loader I've ever encountered
- The fitment of the "lower" and "upper" literally rattled despite continual attempts to tighten
- Cocking lever and innards gritty and rough
Did I mention the trigger SUCKS? I am not exaggerating; that trigger was the most horrendous one I have ever encountered in 60 years of shooting. At the time I owned the thing a couple years ago, CZ offered an upgraded trigger - for some ridiculously high price for a firearm of this type. I got the pull down to about six pounds by replacing the trigger spring and got some of the grittiness out via a lot of time with 1000 to 2000 grit wet lap automotive sandpaper, but the design of the trigger makes it impossible to eliminate even most of the creep without compromising safety.
It was stone cold reliable, though. That's all I can say for it. Accuracy was meh. Not terribly good. Or bad.
I traded it in on a cheap AR-style PCC in the same price range with which I've been far happier, despite its having to be returned to the manufacturer because quality 9mm factory ammo would not fit in the chamber. It's been fine since. I thought about investing in an MPX, but, no more than I compete with a PCC, the cheapie is fine. If I were going to compete a lot with a PCC, I would get an MPX or JP GMR-15 or, most likely, get someone knowledgeable to help me build a quality AR-style one which uses Glock mags. I don't know enough about other platforms to offer any knowledgeable opinion.
Last edited:
I have both a Scorpion and a Stribog (along with a MP5 clone and APC 9 Pro). IMHO the Stribog is better out of the box. Scorpion has a horrible trigger and pistol grip. There's a reason why there are so many upgrades for the Scorpion. The only upgrade I've installed on the Stribog is the HB Industries non-reciprocating charging hand mod. Otherwise, do either take Glock mags? Safety Harbor Firearms is supposed to be,making a Glock lower for the Stribog.
I have 2 scorpions and as they others have stated, it eats anything you give it. I load mags by hand ,so no issues there.
The trigger is heavy ,but I learned how to use it and have no problem hitting 4” plates in competitions from 40-50 yards on the clock.
The trigger is heavy ,but I learned how to use it and have no problem hitting 4” plates in competitions from 40-50 yards on the clock.
I have had a Gen I Scorpion for a few years now. Function wise, it runs great. It will shoot anything from 115 grain to 158 without failure. Aftermarket support is good for it, but it needs it. The trigger, as others have said, is horrible. The $10 spring kit from HB industries helps a lot, but still leaves much to be desired.
I’m going to sell my Scorpion soon and get a 9mm upper for my AR and just run the CMMG ARC mags. Faxon makes a good upper, and it would come in under your price point. Just a thought...
I’m going to sell my Scorpion soon and get a 9mm upper for my AR and just run the CMMG ARC mags. Faxon makes a good upper, and it would come in under your price point. Just a thought...
When I was shooting PCC in USPSA I had the opportunity to shoot alot of MPX's and Scorpions. If I were looking for something to use as a "sub gun" I would get the MPX over the scorpion.
That said if I were looking for something to compete with I would go with an AR9 of some sort. I ran mine enough get classified and for a lot of rounds of practice. Probably around 10K rounds in the year I was messing with it. It was ridiculously reliable(Run them dripping wet) and much flatter than either of the above options. As a note mine was a cheap 1st gen PSA with a tuned load, buffer, comp, and a JP trigger spring. I probably had less than $600 in the gun and another $100 in magazine extensions. It was a great gun for sporting purposes.
I sold it after I lost interest in PCC and got all my money back.
That said if I were looking for something to compete with I would go with an AR9 of some sort. I ran mine enough get classified and for a lot of rounds of practice. Probably around 10K rounds in the year I was messing with it. It was ridiculously reliable(Run them dripping wet) and much flatter than either of the above options. As a note mine was a cheap 1st gen PSA with a tuned load, buffer, comp, and a JP trigger spring. I probably had less than $600 in the gun and another $100 in magazine extensions. It was a great gun for sporting purposes.
I sold it after I lost interest in PCC and got all my money back.
Absolutely love my Scorpion. I plan on owning a Stribog as well, but I won't get rid of the Scorpion. I researched the hell out of it and knew about the horrible grip angle and horrible trigger when I bought it. I ordered the Magpul grip the day I brought it home. I haven't upgraded the trigger yet, but I will. I'm 4 months into a suppressor wait, and then this thing will be the cat's ass... The suppressor comparisons between this and the MPX are why I had to give the MPX a hard pass. There are a lot of YouTube evaluations and even if you don't agree with their reasoning or like the host, you can at least watch and see how the guns perform and are manipulated. I can't wait to get a Stribog as well, but for now, my Scorpion makes me smile every time I shoot it.
Just a question, but when I shoot a match I see a lot of AR9's breaking firing pins. Never had an issue with a Scorpion.
I’m still leaning to the Scorpion; thanks to all that have replied. But, an email from PSA showed me an AR9 if theirs for a very attractive price (Gen 4 8” with brace) for a very nice price. How does their AR9 compare to the scorpion?
I have the scorpion (pistol version with brace) and it’s awesome. The trigger was about 8 lbs I put the $10 spring in it and it’s 5.5 lbs now. I just put the Magpul grip on it and although I like it I just did it to try it as the factory grip was just fine for me.
Mine lives Folded in a backpack in my truck. Carried under my ccw
The mags from magpul (35 rounds) are dirt cheap and run like a top.
As far as how it fits a magazine loader, yeah I don’t use one.....but I can ask my sister I think she needs one to load hers
If your familiar and like the AR platform then go that route. I like the MP5 platform etc for sub guns and the scorpion is closer to the MP5 than the AR
Mine lives Folded in a backpack in my truck. Carried under my ccw
The mags from magpul (35 rounds) are dirt cheap and run like a top.
As far as how it fits a magazine loader, yeah I don’t use one.....but I can ask my sister I think she needs one to load hers
If your familiar and like the AR platform then go that route. I like the MP5 platform etc for sub guns and the scorpion is closer to the MP5 than the AR
Do you run your mpx suppressed at all? If so any issues?
Just curious as I had several scorpions at different times and none of them ran supressed reliably for me.
Interesting. Every review I've read raves about their performance suppressed. It's that main reason I chose the Scorpion over the MPX.
Another vote for CZ Scorpion here.
The trigger is rough, but easily fixed with a spring change.
As mentioned, some aftermarket $ can make it perfect according to your preference. For me that was:
- HBI trigger and spring
- HBI charging handle
- HBI AK style safeties
- HBI paddle magazine release
- Magpul grip
- Reptilia Zhukov Folder Adapter
- Magpul Zhukov stock
- HBI K (5.3”) conversion barrel and handguard, Form 1 SBR
- MP5 style grip (A3 tactical I think)
- Troy Micro BUIS
- Troy Micro BUIS
- Sig Romeo5
- Form 1 suppressor from a Diversified Machine Kit.
The trigger is rough, but easily fixed with a spring change.
As mentioned, some aftermarket $ can make it perfect according to your preference. For me that was:
- HBI trigger and spring
- HBI charging handle
- HBI AK style safeties
- HBI paddle magazine release
- Magpul grip
- Reptilia Zhukov Folder Adapter
- Magpul Zhukov stock
- HBI K (5.3”) conversion barrel and handguard, Form 1 SBR
- MP5 style grip (A3 tactical I think)
- Troy Micro BUIS
- Troy Micro BUIS
- Sig Romeo5
- Form 1 suppressor from a Diversified Machine Kit.
I love my scorpion. As others have said, it’s easy to improve the stock trigger and grip. Shooting it suppressed puts a smile on everyone who shoots its face. Probably one of my favorite Gus to shoot!
I really like my scorpion SBR. as others have said the trigger isn't great, but I don't think it's all that bad.
the right answer though is the very underappreciated B&T TP9. Everyone that shoots it loves it. the trigger isn't great, the sights are terrible, and the mags are stupid expensive. but it's 100% reliable and so much fun. bonus point - you can get a thigh holster for extra tac-ninja points.
the right answer though is the very underappreciated B&T TP9. Everyone that shoots it loves it. the trigger isn't great, the sights are terrible, and the mags are stupid expensive. but it's 100% reliable and so much fun. bonus point - you can get a thigh holster for extra tac-ninja points.
Scorpion here also. Went with the Carbine length.
Yep, trigger had to be fixed.
I went with the CZ Customs trigger because the spring change still didn’t do it for me.
I also got rid of the factory grip, I didn’t like the Glock-like angle of it.
But really.... how many people ever leave anything factory stock?
I run 147gr sub-Sonics through it with a can.
It’s quiet fun!
Yep, trigger had to be fixed.
I went with the CZ Customs trigger because the spring change still didn’t do it for me.
I also got rid of the factory grip, I didn’t like the Glock-like angle of it.
But really.... how many people ever leave anything factory stock?
I run 147gr sub-Sonics through it with a can.
It’s quiet fun!
I heard people are having cycling issues with the Stribog. Google "stribog" and "failure to feed" or "magazine failure" and you will see what I mean. Seems like they shipped too early before quality checking and perfecting the design.
What do you estimate the total $ is?
That gun is perfect dude.
I’m in love with 9mm sbrs, I want them all but for now I have an mp5k clone and a 4.5”ar9 sbr. I’m definitely waiting for the a3 stribog to get here. But will own a scorpion too. I just don’t want to pay 200$ premium right now because they are hard to find (micro) but I’m a little upset that my osprey won’t fit under a HBi handgaurd without modifications. The fella at my lgs shoots pcc matches and had a mpx that was a finicky little bitch, It made for a lot of good jokes between us. “Just think if you could finish a stage, you’d be good” that sort of thing......I’ve heard others pretty mad about their mpx’s being temperamental too. But when you hold an mpx it feels nice like it’s worth the money, very solid and the finish is super nice. Probably the best of best in that aspect, even better than b&t.
Thanks man.
I’ve never shot an MPX but always thought they would be a really sweet setup as well.
While I don't have a Stribog I do have a Scorpion carbine and I really like it, its a fun little carbine that just works and has enough aftermarket support so you can set it up to you liking.
I think that the B&T's, Mp5 and MPX are all better weapons, but they all come with a premium price. I kind of view the Scorpion as a sort of Glock/AK of the PCC world, its not the most refined PCC out there but it just runs, and for maybe around a hundred bucks, you can address most of the guns criticism(Grip Angle/Safety,Trigger weight).
As a semi automatic range toy/cheep plinker, I think its perfect
With all this being said, I've never heard a bad thing about the Stribog
I think that the B&T's, Mp5 and MPX are all better weapons, but they all come with a premium price. I kind of view the Scorpion as a sort of Glock/AK of the PCC world, its not the most refined PCC out there but it just runs, and for maybe around a hundred bucks, you can address most of the guns criticism(Grip Angle/Safety,Trigger weight).
As a semi automatic range toy/cheep plinker, I think its perfect
With all this being said, I've never heard a bad thing about the Stribog
I have both a scorpion and a cmmg. The HD trigger makes a night and day difference in the scorpion but I think i like the cmmg better.
If shortest overall is the main thing get a scorpion. If not look for a used cmmg. Got mine for less than $800
If shortest overall is the main thing get a scorpion. If not look for a used cmmg. Got mine for less than $800
You should definitely go with the Scorpion. Once you've dumped enough cash into it to pay for an MPX you'll love it.
All jokes aside. I have shot both and "for me" the Stribog was the clear winner. So, I bought one. Just the dimensions and weight distribution sold me. Also, out of the box the trigger is crisp and fast. I added an MCARBO spring kit (for $14.99, FYI) and the trigger is ridiculous. The first 500 rounds I put through it was a cornucopia of different ammo. It ate everything. I have seen plenty of horror stories about the polymer mags breaking in the direct blowback (gen 2, what I have.) But, the Gen 3 (delayed blowback) is shipping with steel reinforced mags. So, there's a fix on the horizon. Also, I have heard plenty of stories about the gen 3 having feeding issues. For me though, no issues. I had no intrest in dumping a bunch of money into the gun after I bought it. And I'm a trigger snob. The Bog was the clear winner for me. That said, I have plenty of range buddies who act like their scorpion is the second coming. I guess it's all about what you're looking for. I'd highly recommend you try to rent or borrow both.
All jokes aside. I have shot both and "for me" the Stribog was the clear winner. So, I bought one. Just the dimensions and weight distribution sold me. Also, out of the box the trigger is crisp and fast. I added an MCARBO spring kit (for $14.99, FYI) and the trigger is ridiculous. The first 500 rounds I put through it was a cornucopia of different ammo. It ate everything. I have seen plenty of horror stories about the polymer mags breaking in the direct blowback (gen 2, what I have.) But, the Gen 3 (delayed blowback) is shipping with steel reinforced mags. So, there's a fix on the horizon. Also, I have heard plenty of stories about the gen 3 having feeding issues. For me though, no issues. I had no intrest in dumping a bunch of money into the gun after I bought it. And I'm a trigger snob. The Bog was the clear winner for me. That said, I have plenty of range buddies who act like their scorpion is the second coming. I guess it's all about what you're looking for. I'd highly recommend you try to rent or borrow both.
There's a bunch of 'em sold but mine's been a problem child from day one. Bought it 3 months ago and haven't shot it yet! Brought it home, unboxed it,racked the bolt open and it wouldn't close. Before the 35th person asks, there was NO MAG in the rifle. Returned it to Ruger ( after waiting 2 weeks for Fed-X to pick it up from FFL) Finally got it back...same thing, no change. Called Ruger again, was told send it in from home, so UPS picked it up next day. Got it back, works fine. Tuesday I started putting my $450-500 worth of accessories on it and got as far as removing the rear site. Broke 3 US made screw tips trying to get the over torqued screws out. Tried heat, PB Blaster, WD-40 and Liquid Wrench. Called Ruger AGAIN, told the pleasant lady "I'm not being the guy who rounds out the screw-heads or breaks them off in the barrel" She was great and once again, for the THIRD time, it's on the way back to Ruger. Hopefully the bitch-ass "Herc" who loaded up the screws with thread-loc and over torqued them, will get the job!
There's a bunch of 'em sold but mine's been a problem child from day one. Bought it 3 months ago and haven't shot it yet! Brought it home, unboxed it,racked the bolt open and it wouldn't close. Before the 35th person asks, there was NO MAG in the rifle. Returned it to Ruger ( after waiting 2 weeks for Fed-X to pick it up from FFL) Finally got it back...same thing, no change. Called Ruger again, was told send it in from home, so UPS picked it up next day. Got it back, works fine. Tuesday I started putting my $450-500 worth of accessories on it and got as far as removing the rear site. Broke 3 US made screw tips trying to get the over torqued screws out. Tried heat, PB Blaster, WD-40 and Liquid Wrench. Called Ruger AGAIN, told the pleasant lady "I'm not being the guy who rounds out the screw-heads or breaks them off in the barrel" She was great and once again, for the THIRD time, it's on the way back to Ruger. Hopefully the bitch-ass "Herc" who loaded up the screws with thread-loc and over torqued them, will get the job!
It can happen with any company. Gotta give Ruger CS credit, though.
Didn’t expect that from the Ruger PCC. Anyone else have a similar experience?
Stribog but I changed to a Lingle lower that uses Scorpion mags, AR grips and triggers.
Scorpion with a bunch of upgrades ain't bad (actually, it fits really well now).
Yugo AK stock with riser, trigger replacement and QD sling studs.
Yugo AK stock with riser, trigger replacement and QD sling studs.
Newer tried a Scorpion, But I love my MPX.
I finally have my stribog a3 and got it almost set up the way I want it. Folding brace, 6.3” barrel, 507c in a scalar works leap, and a stream light with a cloud switch mount. This thing is awesome. Even though I added a new barrel to my stribog, I gotta say stock for stock I prefer it to my friends scorpion. The scorpion has the aftermarket so I think that gives it the win in comparison. But I went with stribog because of the delayed blowback. And when you handle them side by side at the gun shop, just pulling back on the charging handle and dry firing them both the stribog is the king. The scorpion feels like shit in comparison. But I’ll probably also get a scorpion still lol.
I ended up getting both- Scorpion has the theta trigger and other HBi bits added to it- swopped out the SBA folder for the Manticore slider which, in retrospect, might not have been the best choice. It is a lot of fun to shoot- no complaints. But the Stribog is the tits, It's the A3 and I got the new updated bolt under the recall. Old one had no issues, but seemed wise to do the update).
It's slightly softer shooting than the Scorpion, but it feels lighter and quicker- I updated the trigger and disconnector springs with some AR spares- disconnector spring is identical size, the loops on the AR trigger spring are bigger, but the legs and all are identical length- trigger is not a very crisp 5.7 lbs.
It's slightly softer shooting than the Scorpion, but it feels lighter and quicker- I updated the trigger and disconnector springs with some AR spares- disconnector spring is identical size, the loops on the AR trigger spring are bigger, but the legs and all are identical length- trigger is not a very crisp 5.7 lbs.
I have the following and they're all great.
Scorpion, Stribog, Kriss Vector, USC/UMP, MP5RS, AR9
I love my scorpion the ergos are great, shoots great even suppressed too.
The stribog I don't have much time behind yet. but I don't see anything I don't like yet.
Scorpion, Stribog, Kriss Vector, USC/UMP, MP5RS, AR9
I love my scorpion the ergos are great, shoots great even suppressed too.
The stribog I don't have much time behind yet. but I don't see anything I don't like yet.
The huge aftermarket for the Scorpion is a clue, you don't see huge aftermarket for bad guns but you do see them for popular guns. Some of the stuff on the Scorpion does suck (grip, trigger) but that can be solved very easily and cheaply with aftermarket parts. There are smoother shooting guns but there are tradeoffs there too in reliability, cost, gas to the face when shooting suppressed, and in some cases aftermarket support. The Scorpion isn't perfect but it's exceptionally reliable, reasonably priced, the biggest shortcomings can be fixed easily and for little money, it's great to shoot suppressed, and it's a very well thought out package.
Scorpion...Do yourself a favor ETS C.A.M. Universal Loader for Rifles if you have ammo in a box!
Not sure how so many people miss this magazine loader for the scorpion.
Not sure how so many people miss this magazine loader for the scorpion.
In fairness- that's a clue to 2 things-1) the Scorpion has been in the market for a lot longer 2) the aftermarket is needed, because of the shitty grip, knuckle scabbing safety and suckish trigger.
Owning both and shooting both, with and without suppressors, including mods to the Scorpion, I'd still give the nod to the Stribog.
Out of the box, given the Stribog is often less expensive, and needs no mods, it make the case a bit stronger.
I've seen the vids of the earlier guns locking up- so far that hasn't been an issue- if it becomes one, I'll be the first to gripe about it.
Having owned all three, here's my opinion. I would stay away from the Stribog. Their QC is questionable so you may get lucky and be without issues or you may end up with a turd that jams and won't run anything consistently. My Stribog is long gone. Check around and you will find many other reviews very similar. Love or Hate...no in between.
The Scorpion has the most amount of after market support to 'make it your own' than anything save for the AR-15. It's unbelievable how easily and AFFORDABLY you can modify a Scorpion. Grip, safety, charging handle, trigger, barrels, handguards, stocks, braces...you name it. My Scorpion started out as an EVO 3 S2 carbine and did everything mentioned. I also SBR'd it and put in a HB Industries Micro K conversion kit. I run it suppressed and unsuppressed and it's been absolutely flawless, running every 9mm ammo I've ever thrown at it and it's shot it all well. I think I read someone else say the same thing...it's just super easy to shoot accurately with the Scorpion.
Now, my MPX started life as a Gen 2 8" SBR. I have since put in an ILWT K barrel and short handguard on it. Here's what I love about the MPX...it's easy to swap handguards and barrels and it's AR-like so most AR accessories work with it, but not all. The handguards, bolt and charging handle are MPX specific. I really like switching the handguards around depending on whether I want to 'tuck' my Omega 9K suppressor underneath the longer handguard or go with the shorter one. I like them both and run them both. I've been asked more than a few times...why have both a Scorpion and a MPX? Because they are both GREAT sub guns and I really like shooting them both...I can't give either of them up. They both have a 3 lug adapter on the barrels so swapping the can between them is super fast and easy.
However, if I HAD to get just one and money was no object, I'd get a MPX. But then again, we ALL know money always seems to factor into it and that might lead me to go with the Scorpion if I could only choose one. Tough choice though. What isn't a tough choice? Staying away from the Stribog. However, I will say, feedback I've read and heard about the service from the Stribog's importer is excellent. They seem extremely dedicated to going way above and beyond to make things right. That goes a long way. But so do Sig and CZ.
laduckkiller, I'm going to have to check out the ETS mag loaders. I've always been a huge fan of the Maglula loaders and have them for the MPX and Scorpion but I'm open to something better.
JP
The Scorpion has the most amount of after market support to 'make it your own' than anything save for the AR-15. It's unbelievable how easily and AFFORDABLY you can modify a Scorpion. Grip, safety, charging handle, trigger, barrels, handguards, stocks, braces...you name it. My Scorpion started out as an EVO 3 S2 carbine and did everything mentioned. I also SBR'd it and put in a HB Industries Micro K conversion kit. I run it suppressed and unsuppressed and it's been absolutely flawless, running every 9mm ammo I've ever thrown at it and it's shot it all well. I think I read someone else say the same thing...it's just super easy to shoot accurately with the Scorpion.
Now, my MPX started life as a Gen 2 8" SBR. I have since put in an ILWT K barrel and short handguard on it. Here's what I love about the MPX...it's easy to swap handguards and barrels and it's AR-like so most AR accessories work with it, but not all. The handguards, bolt and charging handle are MPX specific. I really like switching the handguards around depending on whether I want to 'tuck' my Omega 9K suppressor underneath the longer handguard or go with the shorter one. I like them both and run them both. I've been asked more than a few times...why have both a Scorpion and a MPX? Because they are both GREAT sub guns and I really like shooting them both...I can't give either of them up. They both have a 3 lug adapter on the barrels so swapping the can between them is super fast and easy.
However, if I HAD to get just one and money was no object, I'd get a MPX. But then again, we ALL know money always seems to factor into it and that might lead me to go with the Scorpion if I could only choose one. Tough choice though. What isn't a tough choice? Staying away from the Stribog. However, I will say, feedback I've read and heard about the service from the Stribog's importer is excellent. They seem extremely dedicated to going way above and beyond to make things right. That goes a long way. But so do Sig and CZ.
laduckkiller, I'm going to have to check out the ETS mag loaders. I've always been a huge fan of the Maglula loaders and have them for the MPX and Scorpion but I'm open to something better.
JP
