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Piston Rifles Accuracy

Blackrifle1

Blackrifle1

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 1, 2012
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Las Vegas, NV
I know a lot of people "bash" piston rifles because of the "if it ain't broken, don't fix it" mentality.(pertaining to the DI rifle)I have no issues with piston rifles, in fact I see the benefits of having one for specific reasons. My next rifle will absolutely be a GAP 10 - I know they are NOT piston guns. I really won't go into why I want a GAP (for obvious reasons)

There's been some talk about piston rifles not being accurate- or not as accurate as a DI rifle. While I'm no expert by any means and I'm not here to dispute which one is more accurate. I thought it was just cool to see a shooter win a sniper challenge shootout with a piston rifle!

See LINK below for article.....
Click on Link HERE
 
Re: Piston Rifles Accuracy

? funny as the link said Tony using a piston POF at 1/2 moa so your going with a GAP?
 
Re: Piston Rifles Accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pat M</div><div class="ubbcode-body">? funny as the link said Tony using a piston POF at 1/2 moa so your going with a GAP? </div></div>

Yes, I'm going with a GAP....just thought it was cool the guy one the match with a piston. By the way, I have a piston POF in 5.56 and love it.
 
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Plenty satisfied with the accuracy of my POF 308 and LMT 5.56 piston guns. The POF set up with a PRS stock and Giessele trigger is more accurate than I can shoot it consistently. That said the GAP 10 is a great platform.
 
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I have a couple LMT 5.56 Gas Piston rifles, and they are both crazy accurate with the right ammo.

I just loaded up some 77-gr SMK's and have no problem hitting the same spot repeatably on steel at 450-yards. A couple weeks ago I went to the range and printed a 1.5" group at 200-yards using factory Black Hills red box 69-gr SMK. 4 of the 5 printed 0.55", and the flyer was me, not the rifle as I'm having a difficult time dealing with the heavy military single-stage trigger.

I have both Piston and DI rifles, and won't say one is better then the other. The only pro/con I see is the DI is lighter, and the Piston runs cleaner.
 
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In terms of accuracy I don't think there would be a difference between the DI and Piston. The machining quality of Gas weapons are of extreme high quality these days and I do not think you could go wrong with either one. That being said if it was my money I would opt for the new LMT MWS or a KAC.
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ggmanning</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Plenty satisfied with the accuracy of my POF 308 and LMT 5.56 piston guns. The POF set up with a PRS stock and Giessele trigger is more accurate than I can shoot it consistently. That said the GAP 10 is a great platform. </div></div>

Same here. I can consistently shoot sub 1 MOA but my POF 308 is capable of 3/8th MOA accuracy which I have been able to do a few times. I'm striving to become a half MOA shooter. But that requires more time, practice and money!

High end auto loaders and bolt guns have become more accurate than than the shooters that use them in most cases. Regardless of Piston or DI whatever reputable company you pick and invest in is not a bad choice. The only advantage that companies like POF and LWRC offer over others like LaRue and GAP, when not concerning full auto fire and SBRs is the ease of cleaning. Also in some cases regulated gas. Isn't GAP offering the Noveske Switchblock on their rifles now?
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankythefly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In terms of accuracy I don't think there would be a difference between the DI and Piston. The machining quality of Gas weapons are of extreme high quality these days and I do not think you could go wrong with either one. That being said if it was my money I would opt for the new LMT MWS or a KAC. </div></div>

The only reason I posted this subject is because most of the custom shops (custom, not regular manufacturers)that build AR's only build DI rifles because THEY believe they are more accurate than a piston rifle. FYI.... I spoke to someone at GAP and they confirmed this.
 
Re: Piston Rifles Accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackrifle1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankythefly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In terms of accuracy I don't think there would be a difference between the DI and Piston. The machining quality of Gas weapons are of extreme high quality these days and I do not think you could go wrong with either one. That being said if it was my money I would opt for the new LMT MWS or a KAC. </div></div>

The only reason I posted this subject is because most of the custom shops (custom, not regular manufacturers)that build AR's only build DI rifles because THEY believe they are more accurate than a piston rifle. FYI.... I spoke to someone at GAP and they confirmed this. </div></div>

I still don't follow this logic. It all has to do with what you want to do with the gun. There is no right or wrong answer. Put it this way. For arguments sake lets lay this out so people have a better understanding of each system and their uses.

<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">All high end top of the line companies </span></span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">AUTO LOADERS</span>
Piston: 1 to ~1/2 MOA accurate (POF, LWRC, HK)
DI guns: 1 to 3/8 MOA accurate (Noveske, GAP, KAC, Les Bare, LaRue, LMT, JP)

<span style="font-weight: bold">Bolt Rifles </span>
Precision "tactical" bolt rifles: 1/2 to 1/4 MOA (McMillan, AI, GAP, APA, Surgeon, Etc.)
Bench rest bolt action: <1/4 MOA (Usually custom)

The largest variable in weapon systems as capable as the ones listed above is the shooter himself. It takes practice and time behind the gun to become proficient with it for its intended use. Many people want a Do All Shoot All gun but this is not the case at all. You wouldn't bring a GAP 10 to a Bench rest match just like you wouldn't bring a Bench gun to a tactical rifle match. The right tool for the right job.

Now that being said the difference between Piston and DI in terms of accuracy is <span style="text-decoration: underline">NEGLIGIBLE </span>when being used for their intended roles. Auto-loaders are used in more of a DMR/ REPR role. Which allows for faster followup shots or multiple target engagement within 1500 yards(depending on system capability). With Piston you gain reliability and less maintenance for longer durations and higher round counts. On the other side of the coin are tactical bolt rifles which have an advantage of using larger magnum calibers over the AR-10 platform. This gives them longer range, flatter trajectory, better wind bucking and higher fist shot hit probability at extended ranges (1000+ yards).

Which is more accurate when concerning DI and Piston is irrelevant. When they are both sub MOA and completely capable of accomplishing the specific job they are meant for. When it comes to Full auto, SBRs, and suppressors. Piston is in a league of it's own. Just look at the FAL, HK G3/91 and AK platforms. Known for reliability. So combining the accuracy and modularity of the AR platform and reliability of piston system is just the undeniable evolution for the better.
 
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Ok so my JP CTR-02 and JP LRP-07 can clearly out shoot my SCAR 16 & 17 but I can hold a MOA or better with the SCARs with optics on them. The SCARs have Aimpoint micros on them now so aiming error alone changes the equation....but I can still hit the steel plates I am aiming at all the way to 400 yards. So the question is probably better in context. Piston guns have their place....and they shine when used within their capabilities.
 
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My POF in 5.56 will hang in there with green tip out to 700. Rock Creek makes the OEM barrels for POF..... your gonna be hard pressed to find a better match grade hand lapped barrel on an AR unless you go with the Les', GAPs etc. doesn't have much to do with the piston/DI issue but I'm just sayin
wink.gif


I haven't tortured it but 300 rounds in a two hour span is about the max i've pushed it.

That being said, I can be a dickhead to this thing and run it dry and hot without a hitch. Which brings me to me next point, POF uses heat sinks at the base of the barrel inside the handguards, I can't say for sure that it sheds x amount of heat better than it not being on there but seems to work and at least they are thinking about trying to move heat away from the bore faster.

i only got a 1-4x on it so my eyes aren't good enough for me to put the reticle in a 1 MOA target everytime much less say, "Yeah its a 1/2 or 3/4 MOA shooter" but at distance it seems like a lot less.
 
Re: Piston Rifles Accuracy

Look at the number of gas guns that have won matches at Camp Perry and other national high power matches......how many piston based AR15's do you see out there? All this bullshit about piston guns being more reliable is a joke. There is simply more to go wrong on a piston gun than there is on a DI gun. If you want a piston rifle, buy a rifle that was designed for a piston, not a gun that was retrofitted with a piston. Piston guns are usually poorly balanced as well.

I'm not disputing they shoot accurately enough for tactical shooting, but DI gas guns tend to rule the roost.
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigBlue&Goldie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Look at the number of gas guns that have won matches at Camp Perry and other national high power matches......how many piston based AR15's do you see out there? All this bullshit about piston guns being more reliable is a joke. There is simply more to go wrong on a piston gun than there is on a DI gun. If you want a piston rifle, buy a rifle that was designed for a piston, not a gun that was retrofitted with a piston. Piston guns are usually poorly balanced as well.

I'm not disputing they shoot accurately enough for tactical shooting, but DI gas guns tend to rule the roost. </div></div>

That's because majority of competition shooters use DI guns and have been using DI guns for as long as they can remember. There are also many more companies that produce DI guns than piston. Once people realize that the stigma of piston guns being less accurate than DI and start using them more in competitions. I think you will see more piston rifles taking home the gold.

Also High Power rifle matches use "service rifles" as defined in the high power rules... here

As for reliability. Get out and shoot and you tell me which one is more reliable.
 
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Good barrel, bolt interface, good ammo, good trigger...and shooter doing his/her job. Constant debate between DI/piston but these are the things that make a difference.
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigBlue&Goldie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Look at the number of gas guns that have won matches at Camp Perry and other national high power matches......how many piston based AR15's do you see out there? All this bullshit about piston guns being more reliable is a joke. There is simply more to go wrong on a piston gun than there is on a DI gun. If you want a piston rifle, buy a rifle that was designed for a piston, not a gun that was retrofitted with a piston. Piston guns are usually poorly balanced as well.

I'm not disputing they shoot accurately enough for tactical shooting, but DI gas guns tend to rule the roost. </div></div>

While it is true that DI guns run the roost (as you put it)in matches. I do believe shooters are just using DI guns more because of that's what they are use to using. However, a solid built piston rifle I believe does add some benefits over a DI gun - don't kid yourself that there's no benefit of a piston rifle. That's just haters nay-say.

As we all know - the military is now using them for certain appplications - probably for a good reason.
wink.gif
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sebben</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigBlue&Goldie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Look at the number of gas guns that have won matches at Camp Perry and other national high power matches......how many piston based AR15's do you see out there? All this bullshit about piston guns being more reliable is a joke. There is simply more to go wrong on a piston gun than there is on a DI gun. If you want a piston rifle, buy a rifle that was designed for a piston, not a gun that was retrofitted with a piston. Piston guns are usually poorly balanced as well.

I'm not disputing they shoot accurately enough for tactical shooting, but DI gas guns tend to rule the roost. </div></div>

That's because majority of competition shooters use DI guns and have been using DI guns for as long as they can remember. There are also many more companies that produce DI guns than piston. Once people realize that the stigma of piston guns being less accurate than DI and start using them more in competitions. I think you will see more piston rifles taking home the gold.

Also High Power rifle matches use "service rifles" as defined in the high power rules... here

As for reliability. Get out and shoot and you tell me which one is more reliable. </div></div>

I do get out and shoot, which is why I can speak on this matter. I have shot many disciplines with an AR15, and in every case there was never any indication of DI guns being unreliable. Piston guns are the latest cool guy gear. Anybody that has ever owend a properly built AR15 knows they can go thousands of rounds without being cleaned. FWIW, a POF is the only AR based rifle that I have ever seen that required 2 people to clear a stuck round due to a dirty chamber.....after less than 400 rounds. My statement still stands, if you want a piston rifle, get a rifle that was designed for a piston.
 
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"a POF is the only AR based rifle that I have ever seen that required 2 people to clear a stuck round due to a dirty chamber.....after less than 400 rounds"

Upon what do you base that conclusion. It was most likely an issue with the round and not the rifle. Carbon build up would not require that sort of effort.
 
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DI is inherently more accurate than GP due to these factors:
- DI does not have any reciprocating mass in front of the breach.
- GP setups impart force against the gas block to initialize the action.
This force is transferred to the barrel.
- DI systems do in fact use a piston, they are just perfectly in line with the bore.
This ensures that you do not have any asymmetric forces acting on the barrel.

There are plenty of other arguments, but this is the core of the accuracy point.
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr. Phil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">DI is inherently more accurate than GP due to these factors:
- DI does not have any reciprocating mass in front of the breach.
- GP setups impart force against the gas block to initialize the action.
This force is transferred to the barrel.
- DI systems do in fact use a piston, they are just perfectly in line with the bore.
This ensures that you do not have any asymmetric forces acting on the barrel.

There are plenty of other arguments, but this is the core of the accuracy point.
</div></div>

I don't really believe one is any better than the other.
I have both and the piston guns shoot just fine.
Too many other factors that really make a difference including shooter, conditions, distance, ammo, chamber ...etc etc.
 
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None of which is a factor before the projectile leaves the barrel. Pistols aren't truly freefloated, which is the only real active difference as far as I'm concerned. My repr is nearly half moa, so I'm not concerned.
wink.gif
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smschulz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr. Phil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">DI is inherently more accurate than GP due to these factors:
- DI does not have any reciprocating mass in front of the breach.
- GP setups impart force against the gas block to initialize the action.
This force is transferred to the barrel.
- DI systems do in fact use a piston, they are just perfectly in line with the bore.
This ensures that you do not have any asymmetric forces acting on the barrel.

There are plenty of other arguments, but this is the core of the accuracy point.
</div></div>

I don't really believe one is any better than the other.
I have both and the piston guns shoot just fine.
Too many other factors that really make a difference including shooter, conditions, distance, ammo, chamber ...etc etc. </div></div>
One platform starts with issues that it has to overcome and the other does not.
Yes, you can make a GP gun accurate, but it is not inherently so.

My post served to address the OP's specific question, not to stoke the DI vs. GP debate.
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigBlue&Goldie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">. My statement still stands, if you want a piston rifle, get a rifle that was designed for a piston.</div></div>

I would think that POF and LWRC rifles were designed for a piston. It would the retro fits that are not. Personally, I run a piston (LWRC) in my 10.5" SBR because I feel there is less blowback than a DI gun. 12.5"+, DI gets the nod. I had a 16" LWRC piston rifle and sold it after awhile, as I felt it was not really needed.
 
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The DI is inherently more likely to be accurate, but POF and LWRC have brought the accuracy difference down to non-existent or insignificant. I don't regard the SCAR to anything more than a bullet hose, which has it's place. The precision version of the SCAR is going to be VASTLY more expensive to buy, if it's even made available. That speaks volumes about the current version.
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chainring</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The DI is inherently more likely to be accurate, but POF and LWRC have brought the accuracy difference down to non-existent or insignificant. I don't regard the SCAR to anything more than a bullet hose, which has it's place. The precision version of the SCAR is going to be VASTLY more expensive to buy, if it's even made available. That speaks volumes about the current version. </div></div>

You sir, have arrived at ASSUMPTION JUNCTION. Any and all that would like to get off the train here be advised. It looks like everyone else's...and smells like one too.

OP. Find the platform YOU like...and you think YOU'LL enjoy and roll with it. Change your mind? Sell the smoke poll and roll with something else. The subjective statements contained in the early posts are...just that, subjective.
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigBlue&Goldie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cause after it was cleaned it ran fine. The round was not the problem. The same gun had to go back to POF for feeding issues as well. </div></div>

This was fairly common with the "high end" pistol rifle companies like POF and LWRC. They've had bouts where their guns just didn't run well.
 
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There are so many facts that come into play when talking about accuracy that now a days if you buy any of these top guns and put on some good glass then it all BOILS DOWN TO SHOOTER.
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jevan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are so many facts that come into play when talking about accuracy that now a days if you buy any of these top guns and put on some good glass then it all BOILS DOWN TO SHOOTER. </div></div>

Thank you! That's what I said.
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BravoSector1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

OP. Find the platform YOU like...and you think YOU'LL enjoy and roll with it. Change your mind? Sell the smoke poll and roll with something else. The subjective statements contained in the early posts are...just that, subjective. </div></div>

I agree, however - I already know what I want. I do have both DI and piston guns and like them both. I was just merely pointing out that a lot of people say that DI rifles ARE more accurate.....(I'm not arguing this fact one way or the other) My original post was to show that some shooters are shooting really well with a piston rifle - and winning a match!
 
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Got groups? Love to see more scar groups, especially any that are sub 1.5 moa. Not that 1.5 moa is a problem, with my shooting conditions and optic of choice 1.5 moa is plenty good.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BravoSector1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chainring</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The DI is inherently more likely to be accurate, but POF and LWRC have brought the accuracy difference down to non-existent or insignificant. I don't regard the SCAR to anything more than a bullet hose, which has it's place. The precision version of the SCAR is going to be VASTLY more expensive to buy, if it's even made available. That speaks volumes about the current version. </div></div>

You sir, have arrived at ASSUMPTION JUNCTION. Any and all that would like to get off the train here be advised. It looks like everyone else's...and smells like one too.

OP. Find the platform YOU like...and you think YOU'LL enjoy and roll with it. Change your mind? Sell the smoke poll and roll with something else. The subjective statements contained in the early posts are...just that, subjective. </div></div>
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chainring</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The DI is inherently more likely to be accurate, but POF and LWRC have brought the accuracy difference down to non-existent or insignificant. I don't regard the SCAR to anything more than a bullet hose, which has it's place. The precision version of the SCAR is going to be VASTLY more expensive to buy, if it's even made available. That speaks volumes about the current version. </div></div>

Don't take any offense here but your estimate of the SCAR....especially the 17 is wildly off. I have achieved 1/2 MOA with my 17 and hand loads and the 16 can easily hold 1 MOA with the 77 SMK loads that are commercially available (I have not created a hand load for the 16 yet). Although I have a high opinion of the SCARs, I am by no means a "fan boy" of any specific weapon. Having said that, my JPs are more accurate....but the difference is virtually meaningless. Anyone who does their part with a SCAR and feeds it quality ammo will have more than acceptable real world precision accuracy. Now before all of the bolt gun guys jump on me here.... we are talking about real world accuracy and we are talking about semi auto guns. There is no semi auto made today that will provide a significant and measurable increase in real world accuracy....this is born out every month in the 3Gun Nation matches..... a 10" plate at 477 yards doesn't care what rifle shoots at it....and the SCARs are hanging in, if not excelling agains the OBRs, JPs, REPRs etc......all great guns but don't leave the SCAR out of the equation....it would not be an accurate assessment.
 
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To me, it's interesting that some of the most prominent names in the AR business don't use the op-rod driven rifles they were involved in developing.

Example 1: The HK416. One of the main personas involved with the HK416 owns 2 of them, but they are mostly safe queens. All his carbine courses are primarily shot with well-built DI guns.

Example 2: Magpul Masada and the ACR. How often do you see those in any of their courses, when it's their baby?

I run and attend a few high-volume courses throughout the year, and train with coalition partners in some of the most extreme weather/conditions that I never anticipated shooting in, like -22 C in 3ft of snow on a regular basis.

The thing that surprised me, but really shouldn't have, was how well M4's run in extreme cold, while AK's spray feces in the bed like it's cool. So, in the reliability aspect, if I wanted to achieve the "reliability" of the AK in my AR's, I would just not lube them, and by parts from the gun show vendors who have just let the flat black Krylon dry back at the trailer park, claiming it's milspec anodizing.

That takes away the piston=reliability argument for me, moving on to accuracy. DI guns are the record-holders for service rifle, after kicking the M14 to the curb, which is an op-rod driven gun with loads of issues to overcome, as those who have chased the accuracy rabbit with them are already painfully aware of.

Ask yourself why the military never adopted the Colt Model 703, op-rod driven M16 back in the late 1960's:

[img:center]http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/80/piston1xc0.jpg/sr=1[/img]

colt703b.jpg


Cliff notes: It blew bigtime...more moving parts, less accurate, heavier, terrible recoil, more expensive to make, less reliable. (Notice the anti-carrier tilt raceways on the back of the carrier. Colt did their homework on that one, but it still sucked compared to the Model 603/M16A1.)

 
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Don't get me wrong.... I can out shoot my SCARs with my JPs all day, every day. I don't disagree that the DI guns with full floating hand guards are the way to go for pure accuracy....my question is what level of accuracy do you really need for your specific application?
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fmsniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I run a Daewoo K2 1/7 twist, I prefer it over my DI AR 15
IMG_0036-3.jpg

</div></div>

Nice K2...the first person I ever saw shot with 5.56 NATO was from a K2 on the DMZ in 1996. Canoed his head...

I describe the K2 as the unknown Asian bastard child of Stoner. Ejection is violent with that one.
 
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Tiger BDE ROK Soldiers carried them when I was at Camp Greaves in 1991, thats when I 1st ran into them...
They had the K1's as I remember

mine is very accurate for a 18 inch barrel and just plain reliable
 
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I was at Greaves as well. ROK Army soldier shot a North Korean SOF Scout Swimmer in the head when he tried to evade with his swim buddy, who was never seen again.

They had a WP duffel stuffed with demo, CHICOM copies of the M16 with 1800's style revolver pistol grips, 20rd 5.56 mags, pistols, & cameras.

The deceased DPRK SOF guy looked to be in his mid-late 30's, extremely well-built, unlike most Koreans, and was wearing a ROK E-7/PSG uniform under his wetsuit, with 2 patches sewn in the wrong places.

The overwhelming impression I felt was that he had been doing this waaaay longer than me, and was a seasoned veteran of SOF, and probably had done numerous water infils like this along the Imjin and Han estuary region where we were locked in there, for SR missions and pre-invasion prep contingencies (why the demo?).

When people told me that 5.56 is an anemic man-stopper after that, I chuckled to myself, and it was ROK 62gr M855 spec with the steel penetrator, not M193.
 
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Ha! small world, "Stands Alone"

I remeber that and the Submarine later that went aground, had a few bodies wash up in the river.

Got my EIB at Warrior base
smile.gif


I was Scout Pltn 1/506..at the time then moved up to JSA for QRF, but spent most days on Sniper ridge, in a Hide, life sucked at that point, over-watching the DML. At least I never had to give tours
 
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"Stands Alone!"...."Sleeps Together!" is what we responded with...

I was also 1/506th Scouts, with an MI Branched PL who was prior enlisted E-6 B4 and SOTIC, Panama vet. BC was former SF, and right before I left, we got a BN CSM from SFOD, who's brother was Regimental CSM for 75th, and I think had been in the Unit as well. They were Guamanian and hard-chargers. He immediately demanded we have a flat range built right next to the BN HQ right there between the north end of the bldg and the fence, by the gate where the motor pool was directly across from.

1/1st SFG ran a SOTIC MTT for us right after I got there.

We also had a DPRK sub run aground on the east coast while I was there, after a 6-man SOF team had done some SR in that region. They executed the sub crew, then went on a killing spree, with TF160 and us doing QRF, ROK Army LT.s getting killed left and right. They would kick in adashi's rural cabins, blast him and hajimaj, eat their chow, rest, and repeat. That went on for months during that 96-97 winter.

Good times.
 
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I was there during the sub run I did 4 tours in Korea..
at SOTIC 5th SFG we did MTT's as well.

1st Groupers were out of CP Kim in Yongsan back in the day I am guessing still?

I have 24 years in, trying to decide to retire or not..
 
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I think the new breed of piston driven rifles have surpassed the old spray the creek bed down versions
 
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Thanks for all the input guys. Like I said before.....I'm not here to debate whether pistons are good or bad (I actually like them) But I find it hard to understand when people say piston rifles aren't or can't be reliable when an AK-47 is a piston operated weapon and recognized as the most reliable gun in the world.
 
Re: Piston Rifles Accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackrifle1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for all the input guys. Like I said before.....I'm not here to debate whether pistons are good or bad (I actually like them) But I find it hard to understand when people say piston rifles aren't or can't be reliable when an AK-47 is a piston operated weapon and recognized as the most reliable gun in the world. </div></div>

The reality is that AK's aren't as reliable as they are touted to be. They regularly malfunction in every single high volume shooting session I have been present on in the past 18 years, with one rare set of exceptions with regard to type/country of origin:

The Valmet Rk62 and Sako Rk92/95 variants, made in Finland. I can honestly say that I have yet to see one malf, and I've been working with them since 2005 now. They still suck to carry, have the terrible AK ergos, etc., but they are the only AK variant I have seen out of them all that doesn't malf. The Finns have their own waffle mags, and higher quality brass-cased 7.62x39 made by Sako, which I believe have a lot to do with their reliability recipe. The Finnish variants are also extremely accurate for a standard assault rifle.

Every other AK, AKM, & AK74 variant I have worked with are one of a few things:

Reliable for the first 2,000-4,000rds, then not
Not reliable out of the box
Damaged or defective out of the box
Damaged in the act of shooting within the 1st 1,000rds

The Romanian guns are one of the worst offenders of all, as are the North Korean copies of the AKM.
East German & Polish guns usually run well for 2,000-4,000rds, but will break down if not maintained under professional army standards of weapon maintenance, etc.

The Bulgarian & Yugoslavian guns can be hit & miss, but will age quickly under a high volume or lacking maintenance schedule.

After all these years, the AK has gone from the myth of 100% reliability, to generally one of the lesser reliable assault rifles in the world in my experiences, which have included 11,500rd volumes in one day at times.

After taking a 2nd, and 3rd look at it, I can see that it beats itself apart by design, when you look at the manner in which the bolt carrier group and op-rod slam into the rear of the receiver, as well as the method for "securing" the barrel trunnion to the receiver.

The machined receiver guns tend to last longer for high-volume, and the sheet steel receiver guns are really a compromise in weapon life, accepting that the rifle will not last much longer than a 4,000-5,000rd service life, especially in 3rd world conditions. This helps with mass-production and proliferation to low-income nations, and makes a lot of sense from a Soviet logistics perspective of the Cold War era.
 
Re: Piston Rifles Accuracy

I've had really good luck with my LMT piston. Right around 1.5 moa with LC SS109.
 
Re: Piston Rifles Accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jonthomps</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've had really good luck with my LMT piston. Right around 1.5 moa with LC SS109. </div></div>

+1 my lmt rocks
 
Re: Piston Rifles Accuracy

That's surprising, but good to hear!!


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: loki*hunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chainring</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The DI is inherently more likely to be accurate, but POF and LWRC have brought the accuracy difference down to non-existent or insignificant. I don't regard the SCAR to anything more than a bullet hose, which has it's place. The precision version of the SCAR is going to be VASTLY more expensive to buy, if it's even made available. That speaks volumes about the current version. </div></div>

Don't take any offense here but your estimate of the SCAR....especially the 17 is wildly off. I have achieved 1/2 MOA with my 17 and hand loads and the 16 can easily hold 1 MOA with the 77 SMK loads that are commercially available (I have not created a hand load for the 16 yet). Although I have a high opinion of the SCARs, I am by no means a "fan boy" of any specific weapon. Having said that, my JPs are more accurate....but the difference is virtually meaningless. Anyone who does their part with a SCAR and feeds it quality ammo will have more than acceptable real world precision accuracy. Now before all of the bolt gun guys jump on me here.... we are talking about real world accuracy and we are talking about semi auto guns. There is no semi auto made today that will provide a significant and measurable increase in real world accuracy....this is born out every month in the 3Gun Nation matches..... a 10" plate at 477 yards doesn't care what rifle shoots at it....and the SCARs are hanging in, if not excelling agains the OBRs, JPs, REPRs etc......all great guns but don't leave the SCAR out of the equation....it would not be an accurate assessment. </div></div>
 
Re: Piston Rifles Accuracy

FWIW,

Since you guys wanted to throw the SCAR into the discussion.
Yes, the SCAR can be a very accurate platform.
However, it suffers from the exact same issue that the M14 / M1A experience.
It can be very accurate, but only until it gets hot.
Then you will notice POI shift due to the GP parts.
 
Re: Piston Rifles Accuracy

For accuracy, there's nothing wrong with a rifle built with a piston in mind.

As for a piston AR15 being more accurate than DI, physics dictates the obvious... with all things being equal the DI will be more accurate... or should i say precise?

Think about it, a DI AR15 was designed to have gas flow through the gas key and down the CENTER of the bolt, pushing it STRAIGHT back.

A Piston AR15 has a rod slapping the TOP of a converted bolt, exerting pressure and stress on the LOW REAR of the carrier...

Yes, I know some manufacturers put rails and all plethora of wonderful little gizmos to try and counteract this... but sorry, it doesn't matter what you do, the laws of physics state it quite simply... the one moving straight back with minimum friction (DI) will cause less sloppiness than the Piston AR.

So with all things being equal... i.e. shooter, barrel, ammo, weight of rifle, the entire shebang.... wouldn't it be safe to say that the DI would be superior in terms of how close it puts the little holes together?

Sure sure, know piston ARs don't crap where they eat, but a dirty bolt has never kept my DI ARs from running.

They build piston ARs for one reason, because suckers will buy them and pay extra for it.
 
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