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Please help me choose a budget rifle to learn on.

F

frozentundra1

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Minuteman
Jun 15, 2014
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I suppose this is recurring thread that gets posted around here, so sorry about that.
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Goals:
I'd like to learn practical application of bolt action rifle marksmanship, to include a foundation for long range accuracy(1000 meters).
Rifle should be light enough to carry into the relatively remote shooting locations in my area without a pack mule.
Rifle should accept a muzzle brake(I've been looking at the JP recoil eliminator) to optimize ability to spot trace and splash.
Rifle should be fairly good to start with out of the box, but adaptability as my skills grow and needs change is a bonus.
I'd also like it to be capable of mid range hunting for whitetail deer at minimum.
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Background Information:
Most of my previous shooting has been centered around semi auto pistols and carbines. Most of my formal training has been focused on practical application of concealed handguns, which I've traveled and spent some time and money on.

The only centerfire bolt gun I currently own is an old Winchester Model 70 XTR in .264 Win Mag, and I've only really used it to hunt whitetail inside of 200 yards. .264 Win Mag, while capable ballistically, seems pretty logistically challenged for what I'd like to do. I've read that the barrels on these particular rifles don't hold up well with higher volume shooting, although I have no idea if this is actually true, or to what degree.

I already have a fixed 10X SWFA SS(mil-quad) and a Harris 6-9 BRMS that I've been using on a 16" AR to see if this is something I'm cut out for. When I don't screw up my fundamentals I've been able to shoot sub 2" groups at 200 yards with 77 grain IMI "razor core" and a rough mil-spec trigger, which is encouraging to me. This equipment would be transferred to the new bolt gun.
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Tentative Plan:
Buy a new rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor or .308 and sell my Model 70. Buy an inexpensive reloading setup, such as Lee 50th anniversary kit and related equipment. Probably buy a chronograph.

Rifles I've been considering in order of initial preference:
1. Tikka T3x Ctr 6.5 Creedmoor with 20" or 24" barrel. *This is on the high end of my budget. **A little worried about magazine price and availability.
2. Savage 10 BA Stealth 6.5 Creedmoor 24" *Also on the high end of budget. **Stock looks like it belongs on a cheap tacticool AK, but chassis looks capable to my untrained eye.
3. Savage 10 FCP-SR in .308 or 6.5, 20" or 24". *Budget friendly. **Read some horror stories about feeding issues with mags.
4. Ruger American Predator 6.5 Creedmoor 22". *Cheap. **Probably a terrible idea, but if you're going to go lightweight cheap starter, maybe go FULL lightweight cheap starter? Some people love them.
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Additional Considerations:
I'm on a tight budget because I'm reeducating for a career change. Attending a trade school full time.

I don't live out West(yet), so most places to shoot are inside 500 yards. I have a place to shoot 1K, but it's quite hard to access, so I'm not sure how frequently I'll actually wind up shooting long range in the next few years. There are a lot of thick woods around here. This may indicate a shorter barrel, but for some reason I find myself leaning toward 24" barrel and increased velocity in 6.5 Creedmoor with romantic notions of slightly enhanced long range capability. Somebody please talk some sense into me if I'm being irrational here. Is a 20" 6.5 silly? How much difference does the extra 4" make?
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Conclusion:

Thanks for taking the time to read any or all of this. Sorry for the long windedness. Just typing this out has helped me to organize my thoughts a little bit. With all the collective knowledge and experience on this forum I'd be stupid to not make an effort to get relevant advice before making an important decision about things I know relatively little about.

So, am I on track, or off base? Overlooking anything? Any and all advise will be greatly appreciated.
 
You are looking for a solution when no problem exists. Use what you have already.

One suggestion is that you can load your M70/264 down with lighter bullets and lower powder charge and at the same time take on load developement. It'll still be faster than a 6.5 creed, then make up a warm load with heavy bullets for 1000Y. You can buy a Whit machine muzzle brake which won't require threading/$80. All this is the cheap route and perfect for a guy on a tight budget. Imagine all the money saved just buying reloading components.

https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...de-bolt-action-rifles/6344351-model-70-builds

Otherwise get the Tikka.







 
Longer barrels usually go with long range shooting. A 20in will work, but you will lose a little velociy compared to a 24in barrel.

The Tikka on your list looks like best option, IMHO, but I don't have personal experience with any of those rifles.

If your budget is around $1000, look at buying a Howa Barreled action. The heavy barreled threaded 6.5 Creed is $469 at Brownells:

http://www.brownells.com/rifle-part...blue-6-5-creedmoor-6-threaded-prod103531.aspx

MDT LSS chassis is $399:

https://mdttac.com/lss-chassis-system.html

If you can afford it after those puchases, buy the Magpul PRS stock. Otherwise buy an MOE stock and grip to get you shooting and save up for a PRS stock and upgraded scope.

Make sure you are budgeting in enough for ammo or loading components if you plan to handload. Best thing you can do is shoot as much as you can.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

 
I'm sorta in the same boat. I have a Rem700 in 30-06. Kicks my ass every time I shoot it. Love the gun and the price I got it, but I'm not accurate with it (accurate enough to hunt, not for measuring groups) and I don't like the recoil. Mine has a pencil barrel that is not meant for the type of shooting I want to do.

I bought a CZ 455 Varmint to shoot cheap (relatively) and get trigger time and technique down. Then I intend to get the Tikka that is on your list in 6.5.


 
Check out my FCP-SR in the PX firearms for sale. Its the Orginal one in the FDE digital camo. It served me well as starter rifle into long range. It helped me win my first competition!
 
I recently purchase a BA Stealth in Creedmoor (my first bolt gun) and have been extremely happy with its accuracy using factory Hornady 147 ELD. I have shot 5 shot groups that a dime will almost cover at 100 yards and today about 2.5 MOA at 300 with about a ten mile cross wind. I have also hit 24x24 plates at 1000 yards with it and can easily hit 10" gongs at 600 with a bi-pod and no rear bag.

Rifle short coming: The factory stock is junk and I replaced it with an XLR with a side folder​​​​​, it came with a 0 MOA scope base and I replaced it with a EGW 20 MOA and put an extended bolt handle as well.

The Accutrigger is pretty nice right out of the box and work well for me which is a plus. I put a Vortex PST 6-24x50 FFP on it with Vortex rings and have right at $2200 in the whole set up.
 
I have to suggest the Ruger Precision Rifle. Its a shooter right out of the box and has quality factory ammo available for most calibers offered. I would suggest that over buying the CTR. As a new shooter to "long range" I would learn the ropes there instead of trying to take on the nuances of reloading. If you just want to start reloading, I suggest doing what other have said already and learn to load the 264wm. That is a great round ballistically, yes barrel life won't be as great as say a 308, but there are numerous smiths that can spin on a new barrel when ever you are ready.
 
OP, first, let me congratulate you on being one of the few people to post a question with sufficient info. regarding your perameters that allows for a rational answer. The answers you've been given are mostly valuable. My answer will diverge. If your principal motivation is to become a better shooter it will have value, I think,

FN makes a rifle designated the SPR. Though they were made in .300WSM the vast majority are .308. Do a search on these rifles and you will find a ton of info. on why they are a superior choice. The .308 is an inferior cartridge to the 6.5s at range but it is perfectly capable of doing everything you speciified. The SPRs shoot FGMM 168s out to 600+ lights out. There is no less expensive ammo that will deliver this level of performance in any caliber. To go to1K go to FGMM 175 SMKs. If you shop carefully here on the Hide you can buy one for $1100-1200. To reduce recoil the recommendation the for a Witt machine brake is on the spot.
 
I may have missed the reason, sorry to rehash if I did, what is the reason for a light weight starter? Hunting then match shooting, or however it's worded? There are so many options now that it is almost too much fun....too much because haha, 1st world problems aren't that fucking bad. Pretty much everything nowadays is modular so lots of options. If I was in your shoes, basing a purchase off to shoot and ease to reload for it would be 6.5CM, it is too got to pass up, and you can chassis/stock it with any way that makes you happy. Enjoy the journey.

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk

 
Thanks for all the replies. Gives me a lot to think about.

I didn't realize that brakes were available sans threads, and finding a light load isn't something I had considered. That may make my .264 a more viable choice for what I'm looking to do. I'd have to take off the front sight assembly to attach brake, which is right out to the end of the barrel. I'm definitely not a recoil junkie and like the idea of the gun tracking as flat through recoil as possible. The relatively light barrel on my M70 isn't otherwise conducive to this, but perhaps this is also a technique issue on my part. I've never shot it from prone.

I really have no idea what kind of mechanical accuracy of the gun is capable of. It has an OLD funky bushnell scope from my grandfather that works OK for minute of deer at 100yds, but I've never actually tried hard to make good groups with it. Just confirm zero and proceed to shoot fish in barrel. I haven't even shot this rifle in years.

My worry is that I'll throw time and resources into the .264 trying to make it something it's not, wind up fighting variables caused by the sporter configuration with thin unthreaded barrel, full length wood stock, relatively light weight(harsher recoil impulse), and fairly heavy trigger, then wind up back at square 1 with less money to get into something that better suits my purposes.

On the other hand, perhaps the old bugger shoots like a house afire and I don't have any clue what I've got. I suppose I could go buy some $50 per box softpoints(the only ammo that seems to be available) and see what I can get out of it.

As far as a Ruger Precision Rifle or a Howa in a chassis, I'm pretty strict at $1000 for the rifle. I still need to buy good rings, a brake and afford to feed the darn thing, possibly a chronograph. A Howa in LSS might come close, but not sure what I'd be gaining over the Savage stealth that goes for $900 from Buds? Eurooptic and Buds have Tikkas for just under 1k.

Barrett MRAD for the win!!! LOL they must be selling for less in Germany.

I'll also read up on the FN SPR

The reason I want a rifle that isn't too heavy is that I'll have to carry all my gear into the places where I can shoot past 600yds. Probably wont shoot extremely high round count days either. Looking for the goldilocks zone of shootability vs portability. Right now I'm thinking that is somewhere between 8 and 9.5 lbs(rifle only).



 
I understand not wanting to put money into a rifle that may not fit your needs. However, that Winchester action is as strong or stronger than any of the other rifles you mentioned. Meaning, it won't lose anything to the Howa or the Tikka.

The options I would consider:

1. Talk to a gunsmith about re-barreling the Winchester into a more suitable caliber.
2. If going with route #1 - pillar bed stock, open up barrel channel, save for better stock in the future

2. Bergara BMP in 6.5 creedmoor - look online they are sub $900 if in stock and need nothing out of the box
3. Remington 700 Magpul in .260 if you plan to reload - needs nothing out of the box - sub $900 online
4. Ruger American Predator in 6.5 creedmoor - will do what you want out of the box - surprisingly it will shoot with or out shoot rifles costing 3x as much - just do a little research

If you go Howa - buy a threaded barreled action from Brownells in 6.5 creedmoor. Then you can pick up a stock elsewhere.

 
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I was always told loading light was considered dangerous and inadvisable in magnum cases.
 
I think the Howa action and barrel are a bit higher quality for factory offerings than the Savage. Pretty much the only reason I buy a Savage is a project gun to replace everything.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

 
The old school thought process is buy a Rem 700 P and by the time you wear out the barrel, you won't need to ask what you should do; you'll know.

If the majority of your shooting is inside 500, no reason to go 6.5.

Hell, my advice is keep shooting your AR. When you do get out to 1k and beyond that .264 Win Mag will do it. If you're not throwing stupid shot volume and stupid rate of fire it'll last you a good 1500 rounds. When it's toast, covert it to a .300 Win and rock on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
All the guys shooting their stock or nearly stock Savages seem to have no issue with them. Plus, saying on one hand that Savage actions are inferior, yet you buy them to replace all the parts for a project, makes zero sense.
 
The deal is with any normal priced factory rifle is that when you take ownership of it you don't know whether it'll shoot good or not, usually it'll be average, 1 moa or a slightly less. I have a friend who's Tikka didn't shoot well, he'd put 1 moa occasionally and that was with load work. Other friends have shot better than that with their Tikka's but not exceptionally compared to a good custom. In the old threads on the RPR there were a percentage of rifles that didn't shoot well. The one I shot a few weeks ago shot well with 6.5 Creed factory ammo.

Sighting in for a friend of a friend with his brand new Ruger American 270 I shot two groups right at 3/4" at 100Y cheap factory walmart ammo. Who would have thought, right??? Not only that but it fed and ejected perfectly which is more than can be said for certain other brands.

Most of us when we have decided to get more serious about long range have gone onto custom rifles, at the heart is a high quality barrel and that's typically where it's at. The chances of things not going well are much much less with a well smithed custom barrel. In many barrels I haven't had a dog yet, worst would still do .65 average.

Your light barrel will likely walk when it gets hot, shoot a slowish 5 rounds then let it cool. That's okay just shoot your AR or a 22 rimfire for a few minutes while the 264 cools down. AR's do well at 500Y in low winds and are a lot of fun, so do 22 rimfires at 200Y BTW. If the 264 doesn't work out you can always switch directions at any point or it can remain your oldy but goody woods hunter. Right now it's all experimentation and learn as you go. Somebody makes this nifty little barrel cooling fan ...

Super,
My 6.5 Saum utilizes a light load, post firing the primers look like they did when seated except with a firing pin strike in the middle. I could go 200+ fps faster with a hot load but I'll take the extra barrel life, brass life, lower recoil, still awesome ballistics - currently 250 fps faster than a Creed and with the ridiculous accuracy it puts down.

M70 isn't bad choice to build off of. 264 win is a lot like my 6.5 Saum in ways. Not that you are constrained to stay with 264 if you build off the M70.

 
I appreciate all the good advice. So much to think about that I'm getting paralysis by analysis.

I dug a cheap 3-10x BSA catseye scope that somebody gave me years ago out of a closet. It fits the 1" rings that are currently on my M70, but has better eye relief than the old Bushnell. I'm going to throw that and a Harris BRM-S on my M70, take two old boxes of Remington and Winchester soft points I dug out of storage, and go hit the range. Going to see if I can make some groups at 100m from prone. Definitely not a definitive test with my lack of skill, poor optic, and hunting ammo, but at least it's a starting point.


And it's a nice day to get out and shoot.
 
steve123 said:
Tighten your action screws before you go. Have fun!
Click to expand...

Do you have a good idea for a torque value on those, off hand?

Edit to add: Internet searches are turning up all sorts of different recommendations for torque values. Everything from 10 in/lbs apiece, to 35 or higher. Or maybe I'll just do what feels right LOL...
 
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If you're not handloading, you need to take that up first. Out of the list of rifles I would choose the Savage, although my personal choice is the Winchester Model 70 (aka, FN SPR/PBR XP) discussed above, if you are restricted to factory offerings and on a budget, nothing beats the Savage.
 
Op I have the savage Model 10 fcp -sr and it is awesome! I highly recommend it to you it's a great option when it comes to your bang for your buck! .
 
Definitely going to get into handloading. I'm pretty good with tools and precise measurements, as I've been working with lathes, mills, and print reading for my trade school program. Looking to try to become a millwright. So I think I can manage not to blow up a gun in my face. I can see how it'd be easy to make a mistake, and just once is all it would take. I've been watching 8541 Tactical reloading video series, among others.

Had a rough time at the range. Was on and off light drizzle, so I had to be careful not to get moisture into chamber. I've heard this can cause pressure issues.

The gun recoils harder than I like. After several rounds, it just isn't fun for me to shoot. I don't know if this is the nature of the configuration, the poor fitment, my bad form, the stinking hard recoil pad, or just a combination of all of those things. I had a hard time getting that cheap BSA scope to the proper eye relief with the mounts on the gun. Wound up not being able to get as far forward into the stock as felt optimal. This caused me to sort of turtle my neck backward in order to get rid of scope shadow. Also, there was a bunch of parallax present when I moved my eye slightly side to side or up and down.

Played around with my position trying to find a way to absorb the recoil in a more comfortable manner, which caused groups to wander around somewhat. Best I managed was a 1" group at 100m. Most were worse. Some really poor. I shot about 25 rounds, and during the second half I felt like I was battling flinching. Frustrating. Left with a sore shoulder, stiff neck, and minor headache. Ears were also ringing more than normal(I have tinnitus all the time) even though I wore foam plugs under my MSA Sordins with gel cups. I think this was from getting a "jaw weld" instead of a cheek weld, and having the shockwave transfer right through my jaw bone into my ear. Maybe.

I think this was actually the most rounds I've put through a centerfire bolt action in a day. After today I'm thinking the less recoil the better. Perhaps even .243. Heavier the better. I want to enjoy shooting the gun more.

How much softer shooting is a heavy barreled 6.5 creedmoor than a M70 Xtr in .264 win mag anyway?

Also, suppressors should be standard issue safety equipment. Someday.....someday.
 
The recoil between the 6.5 CM and pretty much any magnum is night and day.

Sure you can get in to reloading, but reduced loads would not be my first suggestion. Starting loads from published manuals will reduce the recoil a bit, but from a magnum case the recoil pulse is still a bit different. Also the decision will now be between a new rifle or reloading gear.

A Tikka CTR in 6.5 CM will be a great hybrid rifle for both hunting and steel shooting. I have 5 Tikkas in various chamberings and have never had an issue with finding a factory load that did not shoot sub moa. The CTR is light enough to carry and the barrel is heavy enough for longer strings of shots. The Rifle is pretty much complete and all you will need are rings and a scope. Sure there are plenty of aftermarket stocks, and such but really are not necessary to shoot accurate groups or bang away at steel.
 
That sounds like a terrible day at the range. You gun will likely not meet your needs. I personally would get another gun that will be more fun to shoot. I have seen the 6.5 shot in videos out of several guns. The recoil looks to be much reduced compared to magnums. I have a 30-06 which I find to have too much recoil for me. My friend shoots it fine. I shot 20 rounds through it and felt it a day or two later. Not fun...and I would like to put more lead down range. My research is pointing to the Tikka Tac A1. I bet the street price on it will be around $1500. That is worth waiting for. I saw a youtube video by Ozzie reviewing it. check it out.

 
The extra recoil comes from the lighter weight of the M70 sporter and that it doesn't have a brake. The loads for the 264 mag are probably sending 140's at 3000 - 3050 fps or so. 6.5 Creed is going about 200 fps slower with the same weight bullet. Brake + lighter load + soft butt pad (LOP is likely to short for you currently)+ heavier scope = a much more pleasant shooting rifle, actually the felt recoil will be the same or less than a unbraked Creed of the same weight. The 10x SWFA alone will add a pound.

Just to give a example...My 6.5 Saum weighs 24 lbs and has a huge brake, 140's going 3175 fps has the felt recoil of 22-250 hunting rifle but with significantly less sight upset. My 6x47l sends 105's at 3150 fps and weighs 16 lbs with a brake as well, it's felt recoil is about the same as the 6.5 Saum.

But still, maybe you just want a different platform from the start, nothing wrong with that.

Some of the most important things to me are getting the rifle to fit my body perfectly which is why I've gone to chassis systems that have fully adjustable LOP and cheek height, heck my GRS has an adjustable grip so I can adjust the length for my trigger finger to trigger. Friend has a $3400 custom rifle he bought used with a Mcmillan stock which doesn't have any adjustments and it doesn't fit him. Of course it can be fitted but there's the extra time, money and effort involved.

Do what's right for you, I was just making a suggestion.

50 -55 inch pounds is what I set mine at.

 
So I stopped by my local gun store today to fondle a Tikka Ctr. Wonderful gun. I'll probably wind up with one some day. The 24" barreled Tikkas have gone out of stock everywhere.

But then I looked down the line and saw that he had just taken receipt of a Savage Model 10 Fcp-sr 6.5 24". Nice and heavy. I had been looking at these online for a while and felt it was probably a good buy, and having one show up at a tiny gun shop in the middle of nowhere, that doesn't usually stock a lot of Savages, at the same time I showed up......well, I took it as a sign from the universe to buy it. As a previous poster said, factory rifles can be kind of a roll of the dice, so I hope I have fate working for me on this one. I'm not usually so superstitious.


Put $100 down and going to pick it up tomorrow. He was having a tax season sale so it'll cost me $660 out the door. This leaves some extra room in my budget for reloading equipment and components. And I like buying from the local guy.

He took 1st place at the Palma event at the US National Long Range Competition held at Camp Perry one year. I think he had another national title, and I think a world championship of some sort. I asked about it, he answered in the affirmative, but didn't brag, so I had to look it up. I asked him if he would consider instructing or coaching, but he said his insurance company doesn't play well with on site training. I figure making a potential connection to the local shooting community by buying from him may pay off in knowledge and connections down the road. That is hard to put a value on.



 
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So, I have the Savage, SWFA 10x, and Harris BRM-S.

Now I need a set of rings, and I think I want to try a muzzle brake. I've been looking at the JP recoil eliminator. The precision rifle blog did a pretty interesting test of a bunch of brakes and the JP did ridiculously well in the "staying on target" segment. http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/07/25/muzzle-brakes-ability-to-stay-on-target/ And it's fairly cheap. Any thoughts on this?

What rings should I look at?

And any advice about working with the savage scope base? I don't know a lot about this stuff.
 
That will work fine, my 11 year old nephew shoots my 6.5 CM though it does have a brake on it. He was able watch steel rams fall in the scope the first time he shot it. He weighed all of 70 lbs at the time.
 
Hello all,
this was a good thread to read because I'm in the process of getting my first long range rifle. How do you like the Savage ? I been looking at that rifle myself and held a smaller version of it last Friday. Seems very nice.
 
lash said:
All the guys shooting their stock or nearly stock Savages seem to have no issue with them. Plus, saying on one hand that Savage actions are inferior, yet you buy them to replace all the parts for a project, makes zero sense.
Click to expand...

I have a Savage LRP in 6.5, it's been in the original HS precision stock, a Mcree, and now a Manners T5. It runs fine, haven't had any issues with it and it still shoots as good as my Stiller. It isn't as smooth as the Stiller but the entire rifle cost less than the action. :)
 
OK, you already bought a gun and it won't be any where near as punishing to you as the light weight Winchester you were shooting.
I was going to recommend a rebarrel on the model 70, picking a load like the 6.5CM or even 6.5x47 Lapua.
Both are pretty soft shooting rounds, even without a muzzle brake. You can easily see 2700 fps out of either with a 24" bbl and 140g family of bullets. Once you acquire some brass through shooting factory ammo which is priced on par or a little less than 308, you can get into reloading. You can do that for a few hundred bucks to start and upgrade to more sophisticated equipment and, of course, more equipment as your needs progress. There is quite a bit of very good factory match ammo available in either caliber. My 6.5x47 loves the Lapua 120g Scenar ammo so long as it is not too breezy out. Same with the Creedmore shooting 123 Amax.
A rebarrel and a decent stock will put you up to nearly that $1000 price point but you can get all the adjustability you need.
Good luck with that Savage, most of the people I know who have them like them just fine and some are really nice shooters.
There are things you can do to insure the rifle will fit you well, slip on or velcro mounted cheek pads, different recoil pads or spacers for the stock pad. No one has mentioned triggers but that Savage comes with a decent trigger as well.
Be careful with this sport. You can go nuts, money wise and in the end, wind up with a rifle costing over $7k and if you don't develop good fundamentals, it won't shoot any better than an AR.
 
Louie12;

The Savage platform has benefits and potential. I have a history here of working on less expensive rifles to eke out better performance. Over going on 15 years here, I have worked with the Savage model 10's and am now concentrating on a special offering they make available exclusively through Dick's Sporting Goods designated as the 11VT.

I have two, a .223 and a .308. The .223 competed this year at the Berger SW LR Nationals in Phoenix. I dropped out with health issues, but the rifle shot 9's and 10's at 600yd until my ticker dragged me down. The .308 has yet to fire shot one, but I'm loading up Hornady 178gr ELD-X's for a load development project.

This may sound premature, but I've been shooting my original 10FP .260 since 2001, and it's never let me down, including a handful of years shooting 1000yd F Open competition at Bodines in PA.

I think the 6.5 bore diameter is ideal, and that the .260 Remington, positioned between the 6,5CM and 6.5-284 case capacities is a really good chambering for LR. An 11VT with a 4-12x40 Bushnell hunting scope will run at or under $600 (my .308 cost $549 and had an additional $50 factory rebate), a really solid Choate tactical stock will run $229, a Lothar-Walther 28" .260 Rem stainless match barrel will run $349, a Mueller 8-32x44 target scope will run $237 and $38 with rings. A Leupold 20MOA base runs $70. That's your rifle, it's my rifle, a pair of them, except for the .260 replacement barrel.. That's coming when I buy the third 11VT, another .308 (and It'll set me up with a spare .308 barrel).

...Or; there's the Savage 10T 6.5CM, no scope, on sale for $529 with a rebate of up to $100.

Greg
 
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