POI ~1.5” low off barricade compared with bench (100yd)

[350z]

100yd on bench consistently ~center over 200 rounds, however, shooting off a gamechanger on barricade standing position, Consistently (over 30rounds) all shooting 1.5” low.
My initial instinct is shooter fault (me) but I had another shooter shooting my rifle and also saw the same shift. Could be the rifle, could be both of us having bad fundamental off barricade.
Without knowing the reason, I shot my last PRS match with the scope adjusted zero at 5/10 mil up. I didn’t do so well. I had no confidence at my shots so I shot high, shot low trying to compensate. Failed big time.

I also shoot PRS 22 and that rifle doesn’t have the issue so for now I’m blaming the rifle which is a RPR 6.5 CM.

Any insight from experienced shooters who might know the reason? I’ll try to shoot off another 6.5 CM rifle to confirm.

 

[KnowNothing256]

What rest are you using on the bench for the front of the gun? Bipod, bench rest, bag, or something else maybe?

ETA: My suspicion is that you’re using some rest that’s stiffer than your bag, and it’s likely farther forward than your GC is riding. My first guess is a bipod, mounted near the end of your forend, with feet directly on the bench. As the rifle goes off, the rigidity of that system on a hard/immovable surface means the only place it can go is up, raising your muzzle and your POI. On the bag, much of that vibrational energy can be absorbed by the bag, resulting in less muzzle/POI lift. This is my theory, curious to hear your details.

 

[350z]

What rest are you using on the bench for the front of the gun? Bipod, bench rest, bag, or something else maybe?

ETA: My suspicion is that you’re using some rest that’s stiffer than your bag, and it’s likely farther forward than your GC is riding. My first guess is a bipod, mounted near the end of your forend, with feet directly on the bench. As the rifle goes off, the rigidity of that system on a hard/immovable surface means the only place it can go is up, raising your muzzle and your POI. On the bag, much of that vibrational energy can be absorbed by the bag, resulting in less muzzle/POI lift. This is my theory, curious to hear your details.

Sounds logical! And yes I always use either bipod or front rest near the edge of forend. I’ll have to try having the bipod near the mag well to test your theory. Im also going to try bench + GC. Thanks for the input, keep ‘em coming.

 

[b6graham]

Go shoot a riflekraft test or two

See what happens standing sitting seated prone

And try a few different examples of the barricade(shoot off the same bench but only off a bag)

 

[350z]

Go shoot a riflekraft test or two

See what happens standing sitting seated prone

And try a few different examples of the barricade(shoot off the same bench but only off a bag)

Perfect! I didn’t know about #kraftdata, will post at that thread too with the result.

 

[OREGUN]

When I started shooting Kraft targets, I had the same thing. 1-1.5” low for standing. A month of daily dry fire and a switch to a softer bag (wiebad MFC, with no sticky panel or embroidered logos) and my problem is gone. I say it’s you mostly and maybe your bag is too stiff/full. How stable is that barricade? Are you driving the muzzle down and forward on to target or up and forward? Starting with the muzzle above and rotating down on to the target will help too.


ETA: I had been using a SAP Extra-Heavy waxed MFC with sticky panel in the ears. It was way too stiff and full.

 

[350z]

honestly this sounds more like parallax error more than it does the stiffness of your bag or some other bullshit.

Understanding Scope Parallax - Black Flag Armory | Medford OR

What is parallax, why do we care, and how do we correct parallax errors when shooting? We can clear up those questions in plain English here.

www.blackflagarms.com

Both bench and barricade shots were near the same distance at 100yd so I kept same parallax (set to just shy of 100 for best sharpness). I didn’t notice target shift as I shift my head behind the scope but I’ll double check this weekend. FYI I’m using a razor gen 2, set to 16x.

 

[smoothy8500]

(set to just shy of 100 for best sharpness)

That may be your problem......
If your diopter adjustments are slightly off the "focus" is not even with parallax.

 

[KnowNothing256]

There's your problem......
That's not how you set nor check for parallax adjustments.

He also stated he checked parallax by moving his head behind the scope, which IS how you check parallax.

 

[smoothy8500]

He also stated he checked parallax by moving his head behind the scope, which IS how you check parallax.

Correct. I was editing my response since I initially didn't notice he had checked.

 

[OREGUN]

There's your problem......
That's not how you set nor check for parallax adjustments.

So your argument is that despite having posted, and likely even read, a link with a pretty simple description of doing it correctly, he is so far from having parallax dialed out that he is inducing a 1.5” error?

An error which never manifests itself off a bench…meaning for his 200 rounds his head was ALWAYS EXACTLY behind the scope.

I can sort of get behind the idea that the change in body position has him looking through the scope differently. But anticipating recoil off a wobbly ass barricade, using poor bag technique is a far greater likelihood. IMHO.

 

[smoothy8500]

Agreed, that I did jump to conclusions based on many shooters assumptions that "focus" means parallax has been eliminated. I was trying to find the link to explain diopter adjustments have to be correct where parallax and focus are in alignment.

 

[smoothy8500]

I also shoot PRS 22 and that rifle doesn’t have the issue

Seeing this, what @OREGUN brings up about bag technique and recoil management comes to light. On the bench we zero the rifle to a particular hold and recoil effect. Now in a different position some see POI shifts. Under recoil impulse the butt maybe bouncing off the clavicle. Maybe sliding down the shoulder pocket or pectoral muscle a little bit.

 

[350z]

Thanks all. I’m willing to test and try all theories because this really has me baffled. I have no issue with my cz 457 (22lr) with bravo chassis which is why I’m leaning toward equipment issue or recoil anticipation.
I’d like to think I have somewhat decent fundamentals, I reloads and have pretty much dialed in for my RPR (on bench, ha!) then all went to shit as I was practicing positional. It’s consistent like clockwork, alternating shots between bench and barricade repro the exact same behavior.
I can adjust the rear butt pad so I’ll play with that perhaps the recoils is really shifting the POI.

 

[KnowNothing256]

Bear in mind that if it's this "hard" vs "less hard" surface issue I propose, you'd see the effect much less on a 22LR rig, since there's much less recoil, leading to less "bounce" off the hard bench and less subsequent POI lift.

 

[350z]

What rest are you using on the bench for the front of the gun? Bipod, bench rest, bag, or something else maybe?

ETA: My suspicion is that you’re using some rest that’s stiffer than your bag, and it’s likely farther forward than your GC is riding. My first guess is a bipod, mounted near the end of your forend, with feet directly on the bench. As the rifle goes off, the rigidity of that system on a hard/immovable surface means the only place it can go is up, raising your muzzle and your POI. On the bag, much of that vibrational energy can be absorbed by the bag, resulting in less muzzle/POI lift. This is my theory, curious to hear your details.

Knownothing: I can’t believe it! you are right on the money, so let me first say thank you! I did 2 separate exercises proving the theory first my targets and then #kraftdata. Pics to followed.

ETA: just to clarify, I zeroed from standing position, so bipod at front is now high which is the same as the subject title.

 

[350z]

3 setups all shot on bench. 100yard.
1: bipod near magwell
2: bipod very front of handguard
3: Plate on top of GC near magwell

 

[350z]

#kraftdata
1 shot from each of the positions, stand, kneel, sit, prone. Repeat 2 more times totaling 12 shots. Stand, kneel, sit were shot from plate on a GC. Prone with bipod at very front of handguard, GC as rear bag. No surprise the 3 high shots were from prone.

 

[350z]

 

[KnowNothing256]

Glad to hear you got it figured out! Not sure the best way to address it; I know some will recommend you just remember and adjust when shooting off a bipod and hard surface, but honestly I personally hate that path. I have enough to remember on the clock without adding extra steps (forgot my dope on two consecutive shots yesterday on the clock ), and I know I will at least occasionally forget to mentally count for a 1.5 MOA POI shift.

My first thought is to run a stock with a much stiffer forend, or a bipod with a much more rigid design, but those aren’t super cheap options depending on what alternatives you pick. You can run the bag instead of a bipod on prone stages if it sits high enough, but some stages are much better off with a bipod.

Curious to hear what experienced competitors do with something like this.

 

[350z]

I think a new rifle is in order then

 

[KnowNothing256]

I challenge anyone to spend time on the Hide and not buy a new gun lol

 

[357Max]

Sounds like your overloading the bi pod. All you want to do is take the slop/slack out. Have you tried backing off on the pi pod?

 

[OREGUN]

Glad to hear you got it figured out! Not sure the best way to address it; I know some will recommend you just remember and adjust when shooting off a bipod and hard surface, but honestly I personally hate that path. I have enough to remember on the clock without adding extra steps (forgot my dope on two consecutive shots yesterday on the clock ), and I know I will at least occasionally forget to mentally count for a 1.5 MOA POI shift.

My first thought is to run a stock with a much stiffer forend, or a bipod with a much more rigid design, but those aren’t super cheap options depending on what alternatives you pick. You can run the bag instead of a bipod on prone stages if it sits high enough, but some stages are much better off with a bipod.

Curious to hear what experienced competitors do with something like this.

Address errors in fundamentals until it doesn’t happen.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

So, it’s either:

-too much loading bipod (if you’re pushing feet up against edge of something, that will do it if you load too hard)

-forend flexing and touch barrel

-combination of both

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Glad to hear you got it figured out! Not sure the best way to address it; I know some will recommend you just remember and adjust when shooting off a bipod and hard surface, but honestly I personally hate that path. I have enough to remember on the clock without adding extra steps (forgot my dope on two consecutive shots yesterday on the clock ), and I know I will at least occasionally forget to mentally count for a 1.5 MOA POI shift.

My first thought is to run a stock with a much stiffer forend, or a bipod with a much more rigid design, but those aren’t super cheap options depending on what alternatives you pick. You can run the bag instead of a bipod on prone stages if it sits high enough, but some stages are much better off with a bipod.

Curious to hear what experienced competitors do with something like this.

It’s either fundamentals or issue with rifle/forend flex.

You shouldn’t be having to adjust POA all that much based on position. Unless something like a complete free recoil off a bag that will impact high due to holding the optic and creating a pivot point. But with most rifles, you can just use a much more neutral/semi free recoil and not worry.

Pic is a rifle Kraft esque target from all positions:

 

[350z]

Same result using Caldwell (The Rock) front rest. I actually wasn’t aware of the POI shift since I’ve always shot off bench using front rest or Atlas bipod - shooting for group, dialing in my reloads. The scope was zero for Benchrest type setup and has always been consistent (albeit off) so never realized the issue. It’s safe to say it’s not due to bipod loading.

My feelings after all these is the flexing and/or what knownothing suggested, The rifle is a RPR so it has a free floating barrel…but it’s really hard to convince myself it’s the rifle’s fault.

Look at the Kraft target. I had 9 shots from standing,kneeling, and seating without rear support at ~1MOA. I’m more than happy if I can shoot that at match. So If it’s any fundamentals issue it seems to only shows up from bench/prone with support up front. Any corrections idea are welcomed.

ETA: A buddy and I will do the Kraft target both using his rifle (also 6.5CM). I think that will put the suspicion to rest.

 

[OREGUN]

Some video of you shooting standing with a bag and then prone would be really helpful….what does your prone look like, where’s your left hand when standing, etc.

Also, prone is different than “from a bench” which has its own set of problems because of the terrible angles/difficulty getting behind the gun, hard surface, etc.

That Kraft target has a few centered shots and three that are starting to drift high and three more that are high misses. In my view, one of the other positions is also not right.

Try some NPA drills with no rear bag in PRONE (not off a bench). Can you support the rear of the rifle entirely with your shoulder/body/hips, through 5 dry fire cycles, without the reticle moving off target at all? With a rear bag, can you center the reticle, close your eyes, take three breathes and open your eyes without he reticle moving at all? Once you can, try getting completely stable, close your eyes through a breath cycle, and send a round without reopening them.

As soon as you post a target shot from another rifle that displays none of these same errors, I’ll believe it’s the gun. Until then, I’m going with it being caused by the way you are shouldering the rifle, the rifle/cheek connection, your grip, the way you are managing the rear bag, your alignment to the gun, or all of the above.

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

Isolate the variables - if you have a tripod hook your gun into it (ARCA) and shoot 5 same POA at 100yd
if you don't have a tripod then flip your GC bag or get a cylindrical bag and try that; make sure to really force your head downwards and keep on glass throughout the entire string.

I haven't meticulously read it all but if you're using the crease side of GC, w/ flat side on ground you may be getting an un noticed gap between buttstock and bag - hence why it works with bipod closer to mag well (center of gravity) and shows bigger errors when toward the muzzle.

If the problem still persists I would start going over your rifle and retorque everything

Question - after you shoot a shot, how far away from your original POA does your reticle center move - 5 mil or 0.5mil?

Could be scope internally if still not getting consistent results - try a string at 10x (assuming your using higher ~20x now?);
Try dialing 2mil up and using 2 mil hold.

Also try using individual stickies (1" or just draw a dot with sharpie) 1 target per shot - that way you can get a feel for what part of your string is missing (erratic or pattern) and correlate that to how much movement you see in reticle after breaking your shot.

Only real other answers or possibilities come down to fundamentals like trigger, pulling gun into your shoulder, breathing.

Based on how much the 'fliers' are off by at 100yd I dont think its parallax or bipod loading - shoot all the above with no loading just make sure you pull gun into shoulder throughout sequence.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Isolate the variables - if you have a tripod hook your gun into it (ARCA) and shoot 5 same POA at 100yd
if you don't have a tripod then flip your GC bag or get a cylindrical bag and try that; make sure to really force your head downwards and keep on glass throughout the entire string.

I haven't meticulously read it all but if you're using the crease side of GC, w/ flat side on ground you may be getting an un noticed gap between buttstock and bag - hence why it works with bipod closer to mag well (center of gravity) and shows bigger errors when toward the muzzle.

If the problem still persists I would start going over your rifle and retorque everything

Question - after you shoot a shot, how far away from your original POA does your reticle center move - 5 mil or 0.5mil?

Could be scope internally if still not getting consistent results - try a string at 10x (assuming your using higher ~20x now?);
Try dialing 2mil up and using 2 mil hold.

Also try using individual stickies (1" or just draw a dot with sharpie) 1 target per shot - that way you can get a feel for what part of your string is missing (erratic or pattern) and correlate that to how much movement you see in reticle after breaking your shot.

Only real other answers or possibilities come down to fundamentals like trigger, pulling gun into your shoulder, breathing.

Based on how much the 'fliers' are off by at 100yd I dont think its parallax or bipod loading - shoot all the above with no loading just make sure you pull gun into shoulder throughout sequence.

You do realize parallax is a huge issue at close distance right?

Both that and bipod loading/flex can cause very large dispersion.

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

Lawd,
Ya I do, but comments above say thats already been addressed to a close enough degree to where its not an extreme and not the likely issue in this case - he could be lying to us but idk why since its his rifle he's trying to fix.

Yes the two together can cause dispersion as a general rule; but this is a specific case where its been addressed, so we rule it out.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Lawd,
Ya I do, but comments above say thats already been addressed to a close enough degree to where its not an extreme and not the likely issue in this case - he could be lying to us but idk why since its his rifle he's trying to fix.

Yes the two together can cause dispersion as a general rule; but this is a specific case where its been addressed, so we rule it out.

Kinda like zero’ing at 400 and cancelling out spin drift eh?

You’re off to great start here.

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

I dont see how those two things are remotely close to alike.

I do see that you measure your importance by quantity of comments not quality - BTW Ive been on here 10mths longer than you according to your profile.

Like I already said go make an entire thread about how stupid I am in your coveted 'bear pit' - but maybe stop hijacking other peoples threads that have nothing to do with your issues with me/yourself.

 

[OREGUN]

GotDayum. The wonders never cease.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

I dont see how those two things are remotely close to alike.

I do see that you measure your importance by quantity of comments not quality - BTW Ive been on here 10mths longer than you according to your profile.

Like I already said go make an entire thread about how stupid I am in your coveted 'bear pit' - but maybe stop hijacking other peoples threads that have nothing to do with your issues with me/yourself.

Lol. You’re right. You’ve been here longer and shoot more than me.

 

[350z]

Stayed tuned guys, I plan to shoot another 6.5CM rifle this weekend to proof my marksmanship. I also mentioned in the first post that another shooter repro the exact same behavior so we are betting on my rifle at the moment. Any bets? I know what OREGUN picking

 

[b6graham]

I dont see how those two things are remotely close to alike.

I do see that you measure your importance by quantity of comments not quality - BTW Ive been on here 10mths longer than you according to your profile.

Like I already said go make an entire thread about how stupid I am in your coveted 'bear pit' - but maybe stop hijacking other peoples threads that have nothing to do with your issues with me/yourself.

if you haven't been here log enough to why his current profile is dated 11/14/2021...you should probably talk less and read more

 

[OREGUN]

Stayed tuned guys, I plan to shoot another 6.5CM rifle this weekend to proof my marksmanship. I also mentioned in the first post that another shooter repro the exact same behavior so we are betting on my rifle at the moment. Any bets? I know what OREGUN picking

I sincerely hope you shoot a perfect Kraft target with the other rifle.

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

Lol. You’re right. You’ve been here longer and shoot more than me.

Thank God, we finally agree on something

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

[wah wah wah, wah wah, wahhhh...YOU should probably talk less]

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

lol if you dont laugh at that or even crack a smile - youre a psychopath

 

[Feniks Technologies]

lol if you dont laugh at that or even crack a smile - youre a psychopath

You know when you’re at work, and the really stupid guy who thinks he’s smart says something he thinks is smart or funny……but it’s not?

That’s you.

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

God I really wanna throw Rifles Only under the bus right now for associating with such a clown...but I won't, Ill keep it civil and go a different route...

Like who the hell writes "adjunct instructor" like thats what they're guna hang their hat on; either
A - you couldn't cut it to be a full on instructor or
B - you didn't have the moxie to go out and make it as a stand alone instructor

Dictionary:
Adjunct - a thing added to something else as a supplementary rather than an essential part.
---------------------
(Disclaimer: Ill admit Im getting close to the line - but I do have enough respect for Rifles Only to not take this one persons example and assume it reflects RO as a whole; so Ill just pick on him since he cant leave me alone. This is me not caving in the face of a big-bad-bully)
-------------
Whats funny to me is the people (bullies) who think Im being totally serious and not sarcastic at all in any of my posts, I sure hope Feniks can take what he dishes out....

Next thing you know Feniks is guna want to [meet out by the flagpole] FFS. The only thing I can find that I did here was say my opinion was that parallax/bipod loading wasn't causing the OP's issue (I mean they literally had already said that so I dont know why when I say it Feniks gets all BMOC (big man on campus ).

xoxo

 

[Feniks Technologies]

God I really wanna throw Rifles Only under the bus right now for associating with such a clown...but I won't, Ill keep it civil and go a different route...

Like who the hell writes "adjunct instructor" like thats what they're guna hang their hat on; either
A - you couldn't cut it to be a full on instructor or
B - you didn't have the moxie to go out and make it as a stand alone instructor

Dictionary:
Adjunct - a thing added to something else as a supplementary rather than an essential part.
---------------------
(Disclaimer: Ill admit Im getting close to the line - but I do have enough respect for Rifles Only to not take this one persons example and assume it reflects RO as a whole; so Ill just pick on him since he cant leave me alone. This is me not caving in the face of a big-bad-bully)
-------------
Whats funny to me is the people (bullies) who think Im being totally serious and not sarcastic at all in any of my posts, I sure hope Feniks can take what he dishes out....

Next thing you know Feniks is guna want to [meet out by the flagpole] FFS. The only thing I can find that I did here was say my opinion was that parallax/bipod loading wasn't causing the OP's issue (I mean they literally had already said that so I dont know why when I say it Feniks gets all BMOC (big man on campus ).

xoxo

Because you said based on the shots you didn’t think.

The shots are well inside where bipod or parallax could easily be the issue. Then you want on to you knew it could, even though you already said it couldn’t based on the groups.

You made statements in which it was clear you don’t understand what kind of dispersion is possible. And then backtracked and attempted to insult and such.

Part of what we attempt to do here is to make sure the proper info is being given out.

You have already repeatedly given out suspect info. Hence the reference to you zero arguments.

I would suggest you read more and post less. Take some classes and such. Shoot more. And then work on assisting others. Also, stop with the victim and bullying shit.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Also, since you respect RO so much, keep in mind there’s a big reason they don’t participate in forums anymore. Same with countless other industry people who used to post all the time.

You……you’re the reason. I just happen to not mind telling you instead of leaving forums altogether (which is also a very productive thing for anyone in the industry and these really drag you down).

And lastly, I can handle whatever you want to throw. But please, be funny. Thus far, not funny. More funny, less lame.

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

Awesome - I dont know most any of you so why bring up anything personal. Im guna focus on only talking about gun related things.

But well have to agree to disagree on my 400yd center idea for now.

 

[b6graham]

Awesome - I dont know most any of you so why bring up anything personal. Im guna focus on only talking about gun related things.

But well have to agree to disagree on my 400yd center idea for now.

we'll agree to disagree on it...forever

 

[Jack Master]

Stayed tuned guys, I plan to shoot another 6.5CM rifle this weekend to proof my marksmanship. I also mentioned in the first post that another shooter repro the exact same behavior so we are betting on my rifle at the moment. Any bets? I know what OREGUN picking

Frank had talked about issues with the RPRs in the past. The one thing he suggested is taking them all apart (totally) and re-assemble them with the proper torque specs. If its not the a fundamentals issue and it is the rifle, you could try this before buying a whole new rifle.

 

[Mike_in_FL]

Stayed tuned guys, I plan to shoot another 6.5CM rifle this weekend to proof my marksmanship. I also mentioned in the first post that another shooter repro the exact same behavior so we are betting on my rifle at the moment. Any bets? I know what OREGUN picking

How did you do with the other rifle? I have a question as I'm not familiar with the RPR, why do you have to mount the bipod all the way out or near the magwell? Arca rail? Do you load the bipod on the bench? Brand of bipod?

It sure seems like the chassis sort of springs the front of the action up a hair so you're low when it's not supported from the front.

 

[350z]

Unfortunately didn’t get to try another rifle last weekend but I did shoot my rifle again in prone in other “different fundamentals” to get POI to shift down.
What I mean by different fundamentals are free recoil, hard press with the cheek, light press with the cheek, hand on top of scope, hand holding down the area419 plate, support hand squeezing the rear tight/light, pay extra attention to center of eye box, verified no parallax shift, etc.

Ran about 30 rounds, not a SINGLE round I got the POI to shift down. Basically I tried lots of things I don’t normally do and same result, can’t imagine I can be that inconsistently bad.

Went home took the front end off to check everything. Barrel nuts are 100% tight, the design makes it impossible to backed off anyway cuz it notched.

The forend nut is sitting in front of the barrel but also tight, but seeing the forend nut is touching the barrel , it does made me think that it COULD interfere with the barrel. Harmonic perhaps. So I’m not even sure this is considered a free floating barrel cuz the forend touches the barrel thru the forend nut.

Barrel nut is up against the receiver. The wider nut next to it is the forend nut.

Please comments, I’d like to hear what you all think.