POI Shift

[BamaAl]

I'm having an issue with my POI and would like a little advice please. I'll shoot prone for 30 rounds or so and I'm getting good groups with a consistent POI very close to my call. Then I'll take a break for 10 minutes or so to get a drink or something and when I shoot again my POI has shifted about an MOA. Whre it shifts to changes every time. I'll still get good groups, just have to adjust a little bit to compensate after I see where the first shot goes on the second series. I know it's me and it's something inconsistent in my hold after I get back down on the ground. But for the life of me I can't figure out what it is. Everything feels the same. Anybody have any ideas about what I should look for that I'm doing different? I'm stumped. Without watching me it's a bit of a needle in a haystack, but if you have any ideas I'm all ears.

 

[GHatfield]

Re: POI Shift

If your scope has paralax adjustment ensure you are adjusting all of the paralax out before you start shooting. Also make sure you are getting a consistent cheek weld everytime.

 

[stranded]

Re: POI Shift

It sounds like you'er shifting NPA. Get a 22lr and practice getting in position. I can dry fire all night but proof is in live fire. Search SS&kraigway for tips.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: POI Shift

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BamaAl</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm having an issue with my POI and would like a little advice please. I'll shoot prone for 30 rounds or so and I'm getting good groups with a consistent POI very close to my call. Then I'll take a break for 10 minutes or so to get a drink or something and when I shoot again my POI has shifted about an MOA. Whre it shifts to changes every time. I'll still get good groups, just have to adjust a little bit to compensate after I see where the first shot goes on the second series. I know it's me and it's something inconsistent in my hold after I get back down on the ground. But for the life of me I can't figure out what it is. Everything feels the same. Anybody have any ideas about what I should look for that I'm doing different? I'm stumped. Without watching me it's a bit of a needle in a haystack, but if you have any ideas I'm all ears.</div></div>

Your error originates from an inconsistent perspective of aim or an inconsistent position. Through development of muscle memory and picture memory you will see your groups merge. Be cognisant, as you rebuild the position, for the five factors of a steady position; and, rebuild the position for every shot, without consideration of the target. In other words, do not look at the target as you build the position. This will prevent you from unconsciously muscling the rifle to the target which could hinder NPA adjustment. Be particularly conscious of butt to shoulder position, stockweld, and elbow placement. If you rebuild the position for every shot and spend some time dry firing you will eventually see a result. One more thing, from what you have mentioned, it appears that you are well poised to become a really good shooter; but, getting your zeros to merge demands perfection, that's to say, a really hard hold. Not everybody has the discipline to do it. If not for the rewards promised in competitions for those who have mastered it, I would not have spent any time on it. It's just too much work to perfect picture and muscle memory without some sort of reward.

 

[stranded]

Re: POI Shift

I knew SS could say it well. I have gone back to a 22lr with an old leup m8-6x just relearn what you are describing. While my POI shift is inside min of deer it is not inside min of striped ground squirrel. I'm also trying to merge POI in field expedient positions with prone bi-pod(no parallax adjustment).

 

[BamaAl]

Re: POI Shift

Thanks guys! I'll start working on that right away. Let me describe what I'm picturing here and see if I'm following what you said.

I'll practice building position and pay close attention to each piece. I!ll do this with my eyes closed and once the position is built I'll open my eyes and see where my POA is. Then dry fire to practice trigger control. Cycle the bolt and see if POA is the same. The break the position completely and start over. Does that sound about right?

One other question. Why go back to the 22? Is it just to get lots of trigger time with cheaper ammo? Cheaper practice and putting lots of rounds down range is a good enough reason, but just wanted to make sure there isn't something else I'm missing. Also, I have been told in the past not to do that because if I'm not practicing with what I would be shooting in competition I'm taking a lot of consistency out of the equation and doing more harm than good. Not arguing here, just a little confused.

 

[BamaAl]

Re: POI Shift

Wow, I just thought of something. When I practice it is at 200 yards because there is nowhere close to practice more than that. When I shoot in competition it's at 1000. Anyway, at 1000 I have been using an edgewood rear bag. So to be consistent I have been using it to practice at 200 as well. That is one heavy sucker and if my POA is off I'm pretty sure I'm muscling it to correct rather than starting over, moving it a hair, and rebuilding my position. That could cause the problems I've been seeing right? The problem couldn't be that simple could it? If so, would I be better off practicing at 200 using a rear squeeze bag or just supporting the rear with my hand and only dragging out the edgewood for long range?

 

[BamaAl]

Re: POI Shift

By the way, when I asked if muscling the bag could be causing the problem I meant could it be causing the issues you guys talked about with my natural POA vs POI, and inconsistent position. I didn't mean to make it sound like I was dismissing what you guys were saying.

 

[GHatfield]

Re: POI Shift

When your practicing building your position do it at 100 yards. A good way to practice is by doing "dot drills". The way I was taught is stand up and break your position between every shot. You do not want to practice building fundamentals at long range because any inconsistencies could be exaggerated.

Stick to the basics
1. Build a steady position
2. Obtain a natural point of aim
3. Control your breathing
4. Trigger Control
5. Follow Through

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: POI Shift

For the best results at LR you must first master the fundamentals. Using aids to good shooting such as what are commonly thought of as being essential to good shooting today are actually distractions to good shooting when used before the shooter has fully mastered basic marksmanship. These aids include rear bags, bipods, and optics. There is no doubt that a shooter will shoot better with these aids when marksmanship has not been properly introduced to the shooter, but, make no mistake, these aids are not substitutes for marksmanship. If you want to become a really good long range competitive shooter you can start with a .22 and peep sights shooting 50ft prone at the A-36 target. Shoot with a loop sling support, and when you can clean this target you will undoubtedly have the basis of understanding to know what's important for LR success. Then, if aids are allowed, use em. After all why handicap yourself.

 

[stranded]

Re: POI Shift

BamaAI, I would say yes to your question on the rear bag. I do not shoot in comps. That said, I find the 22lr more sensitive to NPA errors + CHEEPER! If I understand the reason for building of a smallbore trainer is to simulate the comp rifle closely allowing better skill transfer. Thanks for asking this question I've learned alot myself.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: POI Shift

The problem with a rear bag is that it controls the overall height of the position, instead of the shooter's physic. It will be too low for most, causing perspective of aim issues. In prone with sling support, the butt will be brought to the head while the head is maintained erect and vertical. Once the butt is at about chin height, where sights may be aligned, the butt will then be forced forward to get it into the pocket formed in the shoulder, that is if the sling length had been adjusted for the proper tension. Now, with non firing hand on forend and non firing elbow placed almost directly under the rifle, a good grip completes the position, allowing the firing elbow to drop to the ground where natural. In such a position, consistent control is better assured from shot to shot, since the shooter will feel when muscular tension has been consistently relaxed into the sling. When muscle memory makes the position identical shot to shot, consistent recoil resistance will make little bitty groups quite possible.

 

[stranded]

Re: POI Shift

SS sound logic. If I remember right the 50ft target you refer to allows one bullet radius error to score a ten? KTOM's suggestion might be less frustrating/less new equipment? I was taught in an NRA juniors course so I couldn't agree more with you SS.

 

[BamaAl]

Re: POI Shift

This is very good info folks. I've been shooting rifles about a year and a half now and learned almost everything by trial and error. In the process I've managed to get to the point where I'm shooting about 1/2 to 3/4 MOA at 100 yards and about 3 MOA at 1000 yards. But what I'm quickly learning in this thread is I've learned a lot of bad habits. Time to take a few steps back and work on some fundamentals.