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Polishing the expander on FL size die

Odysseus1911

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Feb 14, 2019
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I'm setting my Dillon 550 up to load 300 blk. I'm doing everything within reason to load for precision, not just cranking out a bunch of plinking rounds. I have a Lee FCD, but not planning on using it unless I find some need to, per some of your recommendations in my thread about crimping 300 blk back in January.

I know most of you are using a mandrel to set neck tension to .002", and I'd like to eventually do mandrel sizing, but for now I'm using the FL die. The expander ball is .3065" and has a few light machining marks on it. I'd like to polish it a bit anyway, so should I polish it down to .306" to give me .002" neck tension like you guys are doing with mandrels, or do expander balls need a slightly different amount to achieve .002" neck tension?

These will be shot out of an AR. Should I do a little more neck tension than .002?
 
It expands, but then there’s potential bounce back. You may take too much off. I’d just leave it alone
 
I normally run .004 neck tension in the AR. I tested this on the range and measured a chambered round to see if there was any bullet movement. .003 I would see a little movement but not on all rounds checked. I went to .004 and no movement at all. You can get expander balls of various sizes, like the Whidden kits and polish one of those. I don't like crimping. If your brass length is not exact then your crimp will vary, so I stopped and just run the .004.
 
die manufactures say that brass is going back to previous state, for about 0.001', so when you expend it, it shrink again, and when you size with FL/bushing neck is expanding.
so for 0.002'' tension you must expand with 0.001'' tension (mandres/expander), and when size you must size with 0.003'' tension (bushing) to have 0.002'' tension.
but your results may be different, you can have same bushing/mandrel-expander as your desired tension (neck size).
 
Ok, I've got major bullet slippage when chambering.

Here's what I'm doing:
Using virgin Starline brass, lube generously with One Shot and allow to dry for an hour.
Size in Lee FL sizer.
Tumble in fresh corn cob media for 2 hours to remove lube.
Chamfer inside case mouths with K&M chamfer tool (extremely low angle at 4 degree per side). Depth of chamfer is .027".
Seat Speer TNT 125 to 2.100" OAL.
Difference in neck OD between sized brass and loaded rounds is .003" neck tension.

Put bullet in magazine, drop bolt (AR-15), OAL consistently grows .004". I then tried using the Lee FCD and tried various amounts of crimp. The bizarre part is the more crimp I used, the more OAL growth I saw when chambering. .0045" crimp (which is the maximum with the collet completely closed) resulted in .007" growth. Something is obviously not right, but I can't figure it out.
 
Your ammo is getting longer after chambering and ejecting? Are you single loading or from the mag?
 
Ok, I've got major bullet slippage when chambering.

Here's what I'm doing:
Using virgin Starline brass, lube generously with One Shot and allow to dry for an hour.
Size in Lee FL sizer.
Tumble in fresh corn cob media for 2 hours to remove lube.
Chamfer inside case mouths with K&M chamfer tool (extremely low angle at 4 degree per side). Depth of chamfer is .027".
Seat Speer TNT 125 to 2.100" OAL.
Difference in neck OD between sized brass and loaded rounds is .003" neck tension.

Put bullet in magazine, drop bolt (AR-15), OAL consistently grows .004". I then tried using the Lee FCD and tried various amounts of crimp. The bizarre part is the more crimp I used, the more OAL growth I saw when chambering. .0045" crimp (which is the maximum with the collet completely closed) resulted in .007" growth. Something is obviously not right, but I can't figure it out.
Common
Skip the crimp as too much actually upsets the neck/ bullet interface.
Just run more neck tension.
 
Common
Skip the crimp as too much actually upsets the neck/ bullet interface.
Just run more neck tension.
Ah, I see. I won't crimp, then.

I was afraid someone would say increase neck tension. Seems like people have reported accuracy starting to suffer after going over .003 neck tension.
 
Ah, I see. I won't crimp, then.

I was afraid someone would say increase neck tension. Seems like people have reported accuracy starting to suffer after going over .003 neck tension.
your gasser F your feelings!

Running them in a gasser comes with certain requirements.

I’ve seen plenty good accuracy in my AR with 6 thou of neck tension.

only crimp that’s effective at preventing bullets coming out is a roll crimp.
Other crimps are more for compression.
 
...."Seat Speer TNT 125 to 2.100" OAL."

You might want to check how much of the bullet base is actually within the neck of your brass using that COAL, an insufficient amount equals insufficient "grip" and the bullet could move forward under the impact force when the BCG slams forward. Trim length will also be a consideration in this regard.

Have you verified where the ogive of that bullet contacts the leade/lands of your chamber, at that COAL they MAY be contacting and when you extract the round it pulls the bullet out some.

Although it was related to using STANAG 556 magazines, AAC recommended handloaders use an OAL of 2.010" for that specific bullet.
 
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...."Seat Speer TNT 125 to 2.100" OAL."

You might want to check how much of the bullet base is actually within the neck of your brass using that COAL, an insufficient amount equals insufficient "grip" and the bullet could move forward under the impact force when the BCG slams forward. Trim length will also be a consideration in this regard.

Have you verified where the ogive of that bullet contacts the leade/lands of your chamber, at that COAL they MAY be contacting and when you extract the round it pulls the bullet out some.

Although it was related to using STANAG 556 magazines, AAC recommended handloaders use an OAL of 2.010" for that specific bullet.
Good to know. I was wondering if my OAL might not have been leaving enough bullet in the case for good retention.
 
it's obviusly that you dont know what are you doing.

you didnt check how much bullet you have in the neck, so you problaby dont know how to measure cartridge length. you are using cheap caliper and you dont use OGIVE adapter.
so in reality you dont know if your cartridge is realy geting longer...
 
it's obviusly that you dont know what are you doing.

you didnt check how much bullet you have in the neck, so you problaby dont know how to measure cartridge length. you are using cheap caliper and you dont use OGIVE adapter.
so in reality you dont know if your cartridge is realy geting longer...
It's seems no one around here values your opinions -can't imagine why. You've contributed nothing to this thread that wasn't obvious to even novice-level handloaders, and you did it condescendingly.

Oh, I see you're an IOR fanboy. How's that working out for you? 🤣
 
By my calculations with a bullet length of 0.92” it looks like you have 0.188” or less of bullet in the neck. I think I would look at seating it 2.000” COL. The 2.010” above also may work.
 
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By my calculations with a bullet length of 0.92” it looks like you have 0.188” or less of bullet in the neck. I think I would look at seating it 2.000” COL. The 2.010” above also may work.
I had read so many good reports from people using this bullet with H110 at OALs from 2.075 to 2.100, so I thought maybe that was a sweet spot since that length is so popular. But I'm going to try the shorter length for now and see what happens.
 
I had read so many good reports from people using this bullet with H110 at OALs from 2.075 to 2.100, so I thought maybe that was a sweet spot since that length is so popular. But I'm going to try the shorter length for now and see what happens.
...it's really dependent on the barrels chamber and every barrel will differ. It's worth the investment of a Hornady OAL gauge, a comparator set for your calipers, inserts for the comparator specific to the calibers you shoot and a modified case for every caliber you shoot so you can determine what measurements are for each bullet you plan to shoot, Each bullet has a different ogive and the base to ogive/ogive to tip measurement will differ between bullet types/brands/models. These tools will decrease significantly the consumption of components and frustrations of the "try, try again" method.
 
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...it's really dependent on the barrels chamber and every barrel will differ. It's worth the investment of a Hornady OAL gauge, a comparator set for your calipers, inserts for the comparator specific to the calibers you shoot and a modified case for every caliber you shoot so you can determine what measurements are for each bullet you plan to shoot, Each bullet has a different ogive and the base to ogive/ogive to tip measurement will differ between bullet types/brands/models. These tools will decrease significantly the consumption of components and frustrations of the "try, try again" method.
I don't have an ogive comparator, but as these rounds are being worked up for an AR, the ogive shouldn't get close to the lands as A) I'm limited by mag length, and B) the Speer TNT has a short bearing surface with an ogive that is unusually close to the bullet base, compared to most other 30 caliber bullets.

In the next day or three I plan to work up some more dummy rounds of some of the lengths you all suggested. I'll check for OAL growth with chambering and post my results.
 
I don't have an ogive comparator, but as these rounds are being worked up for an AR, the ogive shouldn't get close to the lands as A) I'm limited by mag length, and B) the Speer TNT has a short bearing surface with an ogive that is unusually close to the bullet base, compared to most other 30 caliber bullets.

In the next day or three I plan to work up some more dummy rounds of some of the lengths you all suggested. I'll check for OAL growth with chambering and post my results.

...with the 125 TNT's the cautionary aspect is to ensure you don't seat them too deep that the ogive is below the case mouth. Trim length will affect this aspect.
 
It's seems no one around here values your opinions -can't imagine why. You've contributed nothing to this thread that wasn't obvious to even novice-level handloaders, and you did it condescendingly.

Oh, I see you're an IOR fanboy. How's that working out for you? 🤣

i know why you cant imagine enything. i contributed everything, but you dont get it. maybe you will in time. but i dont have high hopes for you.

and i dont own any if ior scopes and i dont have a plan to...;)
 
Another troll for the ignore list. Usually run into these fools in the pit, but the reloading section??

Anyway, I polished my expander down until I reached a neck tension of .004". After that, the OAL only grew .002" with chambering. Then I came across an interesting article on the subject by Sierra:

Reloading for Semi-Autos and Service Rifles

Neck Tension

When we stop to consider the vigorous (read, downright violent) chambering cycle a loaded round endures in a Service Rifle, it becomes pretty clear it suffers abuse that would never happen in a bolt-action. This is simply the nature of the beast. It needs to be dealt with since there is no way around it.

There are two distinctly different forces that need to be considered: those that force the bullet deeper into the case, and those that pull it out of the case. When the round is stripped from the magazine and launched up the feed ramp, any resistance encountered by the bullet risks having it set back deeper into the case. Due to the abrupt stop the cartridge makes when the shoulder slams to a halt against the chamber, inertia dictates that the bullet will continue to move forward. This is exactly the same principle a kinetic bullet puller operates on, and it works within a chamber as well. Some years ago, we decided to examine this phenomenon more closely. During tests here at Sierra's range, we chambered a variety of factory Match ammunition in an AR-15 rifle. This ammunition was from one of the most popular brands in use today, loaded with Sierra's 69 grain MatchKing bullet. To conduct the test, we chambered individual rounds by inserting them into the magazines and manually releasing the bolt. We then repeated the tests by loading two rounds into the magazine, chambering and firing the first, and then extracting and measuring the second round. This eliminated any potential variation caused by the difference between a bolt that had been released from an open position (first round in the magazine) and those subsequent rounds that were chambered by the normal semi-automatic operation of the rifle. Measuring the rounds before chambering and then re-measuring after they were carefully extracted resulted in an average increase of three thousandths (0.003") of forward bullet movement. Some individual rounds showed up to seven thousandths (0.007") movement. Please bear in mind that these results were with factory ammunition, normally having a higher bullet pull than handloaded ammunition.

To counteract this tendency, the semi-auto shooter is left with basically two options: applying a crimp or increasing neck tension. The first option, crimping, brings up some other issues that can be troublesome. In general, crimping degrades accuracy. Most match bullets are not cannelured (which also seriously damages accuracy potential), a requirement for correct application of most crimps. Still, there are taper crimp dies available from most of the major manufacturers. Lee offers their Factory Crimp die as an alternative, which seems to be one of the better options for those bullets without a cannelure. That having been said, crimping is still, at best, an occasionally necessary evil. Avoid it if at all possible.


Now that I'm only getting .002" OAL growth -which is better than Sierra's results with factory match ammo, I think I may just go ahead and do some load work up and see what kind of groups I get.