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Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

Hummer

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 20, 2009
702
2
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SC Cradle of the Confederacy
Several guys have asked me how I can take one scope, hit at 100,200,300,400 and 600 yards and never touch the scope adjustment knobs so I have decided to write up the procedure to help out other guys that don’t have the bucks in this economy to drop $1200.00+ on a MILDOT rig.
The absolute cheapest way I know to get a set up where you can hit reliably from 600 to 800 yards is by using a NC Star 2X pistol scope. They sell for $40.00 to 45.00 at gun shows/ebay etc. Assuming you have the right barrel contour you can get a scope base for $10.00 and rings for about $12.00 and you are good to go.
I make up rifles I call Swamp Guns which basically start with a No 7 Contour barrel that has seen lots of good rounds in highpower competition. I basically cut off an inch from breech end, rethread and rechamber and I am into almost new rifling. Then I measure about 10 inches down barrel and do a abrupt diameter reduction to .840”. I then straight turn it .840 all the way to the muzzle.
After screwing the barrel on I drill and tap the barrel for a Weaver No 98 base four places. The 98 is for the Thompson Contender Super 14 barrel which is .840” all the way down. Weaver high rings make up the final part so you have about $70.00 in scope, base and mounts.
If you have a tapered barrel you can get a Scout Rifle base from Brownell’s for about 26.00 that utilize the front action holes and will require drilling the barrel to mount the front end.
Now for the sight in. I utilized the top of the six o’clock post as first aim point and I zero it to deliver POA/POI at 600 yards. Once you have a firm zero, check it at 300 yards by using center cross hairs. My combo is close to dead on at 300 yards. Thusly I hold about six inches low at 100, four inches low at 200 on the money at 300 and twelve inches high at 400 and top of post at 600.
Obviously not all rifles will luck out and hit like this so you will have to do some experimenting. Once you are on you should be able to get all zeros in twenty rounds. Some scopes will allow you to use the top of the six o’clock post at 800, cross hairs at 500/600 and bottom of top post at perhaps 150 yards.
Once you get this down and you use the same scope you should be able to get zeros at the mid range with the cross hairs and be very close at the long range and short range as well.
I made up a rather simple drawing to show how the posts are used.
If one reads the directions for using the MILDOT system it will be a short transition to figuring how the posts relate to a 3 foot high target and moving up until the posts touch top and bottom of 36” target. Then utilize the center cross hairs distance to a post to determine longer range and the thickness of the three and nine o’clock posts to determine closer ranges.
All this data can be typed up and taped to the side of your butt stock for quick reference. Use label tape to cover entire label and seal it from weather. Also use darker paper to type this data on.

http://www.superiorbarrels.com/TacticalScopeZerosDoc.pdf
 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

So I guess I am wondering how this is any different from the holdovers we all are using now other than the fact you are doing It with a POS scope that can't be relied upon.
 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

Not sure I understand either, but I'm new.
 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

Yeah I thought they were POS too and I got my first one about three years ago and I figured this thing will last about a week. It was used and I got it off ebay I think.
Be assured I have "real" scopes, Unertl Targets (5) 8X-20X, Lyman Super Targetspots (5) 15X and 20X ,
Leupold 4X,6X,10X,24X and 36X,Bausch & Lombs and Burris's etc
As indicated I now have four of the NC Stars. Also I have 9 spotting scopes.

For those that have the big bucks for their scopes and plenty of ammo (which is damn hard to find now) to learn hold overs/unders that is fine but I keep reading many posts from new guys here that want to get in this game and don't have a clue of what they need and don't have alot of money to drop either. They come on and ask newbie questions and don't really know what to ask and sometimes they get replies that make me shudder that will cause them to buy equipment that they will regret down the road if they continue and learn.

I hold a High Master Rating in Highpower, Master Rating in Smallbore Prone, Master Rating in Police Combat Pistol, Highpower Distinguished Rifleman, Smallbore Distinguished Rifleman, Presidents 100, won four highpower regionals, three National Trophies, 2nd in Long Range Championships (Camp Perry) two times, veteran of two US Palma Teams and two US Dewar Teams and am a Certified Small Arms and Ammunition Test Director - Aberdeen Proving Ground and I shot my first match in 1957 and I barrel my own rifles. I also have dies for 53 calibers and have designed four cartridges. Three of which are on display in the Royal Armouries Museum in Leeds England (at their request I supplied dummy rounds for their collection) which is probably the finest small arms collection in the world.

If guys want to learn from my experience I try and help/guide them when they come in to steer them to the good stuff quick so they won't buy stuff they regret later which is the folks I wrote that for.
 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

I guess where I got lost was when you specified a 2x pistol scope, wouldn't such low magnification handicap an already inexperienced shooter?

Also, is all the barrel work related to the functionality of the specified optics?
 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

First, I don't "think" they are a POS. I "know" they are a POS. I have handled and see enough of them to know.

I guess I am not grasping your concept because it's easier than easy to setup and zero a rifle with any mid-range Mildot scope, then go to JBM with their estimated Muzzle Velocity and print out a card with their holdovers in Mils. Fire one or two shots at each of those yard lines using the holdovers and noting the actual dope. Log this in a logbook then type up your own chart for the scope cap or butt of the rifle.

You now have an accurate, no-dial method to engage targets without having to resort to a failure prone pistol scope or scout mounting.

This method works no matter if you have an NC Star or a USO. Moreover if you have confirmed that the reticle is correct for mildot spacing, if you replace the scope with another scope, you don't have to spend any more ammo past zeroing. A mil is a mil. Your holdovers will remain the same for the new scope.

Mil holdovers are used by everyone from professional tactical shooters to tactical match shooters.

A quality scope costs less than a case of match ammo. I am sure you, with your credentials know how much trigger time it takes to become truly proficient with a rifle. So with ammo as expensive as it is today, why advocate wasting ammo on a shadetree lash-up. Set them up with a rig that will enhance their learning not one that will have them fighting with it.

BTW, I don't see anything in your rig that addresses windage. So I am guessing the new shooter is required to either dial with a non-repeating turret system or guesstimate their hold with a duplex reticle. This is also solved with a mildot reticle since windage tables can easily be printed in mils.

I am not bashing you or attacking you. I am just at a loss as to why someone with the credentials you listed would attempt to get a new, inexperienced shooter to slap together a crap rig.

IMHO "Poor man's SNIPER SCOPE" is a poor title. Nothing about your lashup even resembles a rig that you would use to learn tactical employment of a precision rifle. "Poor man's Scout Rifle" or something similar may have been a better option.

I have owned some cheap scopes in the past. Even a Tasco Varmint is going to work better for a beginner than what you describe above.

 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 5x5GUY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess where I got lost was when you specified a 2x pistol scope, wouldn't such low magnification handicap an already inexperienced shooter?</div></div>

Magnification and experience have nothing to do with each other. I teach new shooters on irons.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 5x5GUY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also, is all the barrel work related to the functionality of the specified optics? </div></div>

The barrel work is required to be able to mount his "pistol" scope far enough forward for proper eye relief. This is another drawback to this system. You need custom barrel work to mount a crap scope.
 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

Actually the rig does resemble a previous sniper scope utilization that was even more crude than mine. The Third Reich Club issued the 98K with the ZF41 1.5X scope Zielfernrohr from 1941 on. It basically had similar complaints you outline from the German Sniper Schools but in this instance the optics on my NCs are superior to what I have seen on the Zielfernrohrs and the reticle set up is far superior. Even though they were badmouthed by the schools, they were issued in numbers and utilized by line personnel throughout the war. It had a post in it that looked to be 10 minutes wide.
I suspect we have a fair number of guys buried in Europe from this combo not to mention the Eastern Front.
In that regard the Lyman Alaskan was not well received either though popular as a collector weapon. I have a friend who was a sniper with 3rd Army and he said he could take it to range. Zero it and come in and clean it and put it up in corner and go back to range the next morning and it wouldn't be in the black at 300 yards. He said he carried it until some guy got to admiring it(France) and he traded him the A4 for his M1 after he test fired it and he did his sniping with M1 till it took a direct hit from a 88 in the action. He went through several more M1 pick ups till he found one that would shoot.
Another crap scope was on the M1D. I have another friend who was Marine Sniper in Nam early on ( and retired from Corps at Quantico) and he had a M1D. He also told me guys were buying hunting rifles at PX and bringing them to Nam early on. He was a Distinguished Rifle and Pistol shot and he opened up on a zip at 300 yards in a paddy one day and first shot grazed his leg above the knee. The guy started running directly away from him for a tree line wounded in knee deep water and he said he continued to fire at him for like five clips of match ammo and never touched him again. He also has a confirmed kill with a 1911A1 because he thought it would be a nice touch to have one confirmed with a pistol.
Then we have the marvelous scope system on the M40 in which the same part broke in them and had to be scrapped. As you know the whole system had to be reworked at Quantico and save for the bolt, receiver and maybe the trigger assembly is the only original thing remaining. Oh yeah the sling swivels were retained. Lets see they replaced the trigger guard mag assembly, replaced the barrels, replaced the stocks (twice last I heard) and are on the third or fourth scope.

Insofar as the barrel work is concerned, if you are going to buy a barrel, getting a profile you want is no big deal. I had a email from Norm Chandler the other day and he told me the 5Rs now made were pretty good. I shot with Norm when he was a 03 with the team in the 70s. Then we have the three sided 700 tubes, and that is massive machine work to dupe.

Since you are a Marine Scout Sniper please explain to me with all that marvelous training how Marine Snipers repeatedly rammed cleaning rods through the rear lens of the Unertl Sniper Scope? John Unertl was a friend of mine and he told me he got them in all the time to replace the rear lens because Marine snipers ran cleaning rods through rear lens on numerous occasions. John had been in the optical business for a thousand years and had never seen that scenario from anywhere.

I walked up to John one day at Perry as he walked down Commercial Row with Elsie and told him flat out he needed to address the quality of the material he used in his spotting scopes because in my testing I had determined the material he used was inferior. I then handed him a spotting scope rear lens cover mashed flatter than hell. He broke into a big grin and asked me how that was managed and when I told him how it was done he agreed his material was inferior for that application and busted out laughing and sent me another when he got back to the plant.

On a side note John told me when he started building the Marine Corps scope no one could supply him with good trajectory dope on the M118. He said he had been given four ballistic programs on the M118 and none were correct and none of them matched. He asked me if I could get him good dope on the M118 and when I got back to the Army Small Cal Lab I got him the data and sent it to him. Following year at Perry he told me it was absolutely on the money and that was the data he utilized to cut the elevation threads on the Marine Corps scope.

When I got to Aberdeen I found out why the data I sent him was dead on.



I remember when I first started going to matches at Quantico in 79 Carlos gave a talk to personnel on main side and some L/Cpl filed a complaint on him that Carlos had offended him with his choice of language.

Oh by the way I have a heavy yellow team sweat shirt still in excellent condition . I only wear it on dress occasions now to church socials, gun shows etc.

When/if the NC Stars go South I will treat it just like my 36X Leupold. I will pull it off and send it back to them for rework. I fully realize the shortcomings and am surprised they have held up as long as they have. I just got 36X back with new elevation/windage (worn out) and adjusted focus correctly.

One man's trash is another man's treasure.
 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hummer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Since you are a Marine Scout Sniper please explain to me with all that marvelous training how Marine Snipers repeatedly rammed cleaning rods through the rear lens of the Unertl Sniper Scope? John Unertl was a friend of mine and he told me he got them in all the time to replace the rear lens because Marine snipers ran cleaning rods through rear lens on numerous occasions. John had been in the optical business for a thousand years and had never seen that scenario from anywhere.
</div></div>

This is the only part of that entire litany of rambling nonsense that I will even qualify with a response.

SOP for cleaning the M40A1 Sniper Rifle was to install scope caps prior to cleaning the bore. I never saw a Unertl that was punched out due to a cleaning rod. I can't even imagine the amount of force that would require. Without actually seeing the paperwork for "numerous occasions" I would have to say that the numbers were probably VERY low, however it's always more fun to embellish a story (like being in business for a THOUSAND years. I will have to ask John at USO though. Since they picked up the contract to refurb the 10x after Unertl went under if it was a common occurrence I am sure he would know about it.

It's been fun reading the rambling. I will now leave you with your "swap guns" and NC Stars and go back to my day job. Although I may take a trip down your way next year to see one of these abortions. I would like to see PI again and I believe you are in the same state.
 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

The historical information was from Out of Nowhere that was written by Martin Pegler who was the curator of the Royal Armouries Museum and was over the Pattern Room. Martin sent me my copy prior to publication.

I have taken your recommendation to heart and have just drafted a FOIA to MCDEC PAO for WTB for those numbers.
Thanks for the admission of the requirement for the operator to attach the scope caps prior to cleaning. Obviously this order was required for a real good reason. Surely it wasn't for protection from being stabbed by cleaning rods.

Glad to know you think the numbers were low?

Has anyone else felt the need to attach scope caps prior to cleaning?

Another good reason for me to mount the scope forward of the action.



 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Has anyone else felt the need to attach scope caps prior to cleaning?</div></div>

Well, I have scopes with good glass, which I want to protect, so I have the scope caps on when I'm not actually looking through the scope.

The fact that one can achieve results with inferior equipment is not a good argument for using inferior equipment, unless that's all that is available. I can navigate a sailboat on ocean voyages using a good watch and a sextant, and if necessary without any navigational equipment at all to determine my position - but I'll use my GPS as long as it works.
 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

I also guess that some of the other top shooters in WW2 may have thought their rigs were POS but used them VERY effectively anyways. Ones like Ivan Sidorenko - USSR (500 plus kills), Fyodor Okhlopkov- USSR (429 kills), and Simo Hayha - Finland (505 kills). I know when looking at some of the pics of them equipment from that time period it looked like junk, especially the optics. But they definitely made good use of them. And what is even more amazing is that Simo Hayha preferred iron sights over optics in order to prevent presenting himself as a larger target when lifting his head to sight thru the optics.
 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

And do you think any of them would have taken a sub-par unreliable weapon system into the field if they had a choice?

Making do with what you are issued or what you can pickup on the battlefield is FAR different from customizing a rifle a accept a POS scope and attempt to pass it off as a good idea for starting shooters.

I am officially done with this topic. If anyone wants to go buy one of these "swamp rifles" and convince themselves that it's superior to a traditional setup for the same money, then I just suggest you take it to a match.
 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 467</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow!!!!!!!This is too much for me to even read.... </div></div>

I'm with this guy......
 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

Jeez. Makes me feel like a Big Spender with my $80 Tasco 6-24x42 MilDot scopes.

Who knew...?
 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hummer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Has anyone else felt the need to attach scope caps prior to cleaning?
</div></div>

I do as a matter of habit to keep solvent and lubricant off of the lens.
 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hummer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Has anyone else felt the need to attach scope caps prior to cleaning?
</div></div>

I do as a matter of habit to keep solvent and lubricant off of the lens. </div></div>

Same reason I put my lense caps on too. Isn' that the purpose of the caps???

The ONLY way a cleaning rod went through a lense was a Marine was like "You won't bust that lense out and blame it on someone else!" Marine #2 "Bullshit, watch this!!!"
 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

I once made a precision aiming system with a tube from a paper towel roll, thread and duct tape. worked great on my Crossman. This was of course before high dollar CQB scopes were available.

I received a NcStar 2x on a contender barrel I got off eBay many moons ago. Glass was ok, but the tube was funky. Forward of the turrets measured larger than the section to the rear.

You know, if you want to use a 6 o-clock hold as your point of aim, just get a variable scope and adjust the power ring for different distances and note what power shoots where...
 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

get yerself a bsa tacticool mildot scope and mount that puppy on a high point 9mm carbine for a light precision cool guy police counter sniper implement.
 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

Hummer sounds like a real character. I think he just enjoys achieving good results with marginal equipment. Maybe he is such an accomplished shooter that he enjoys that challenge.
 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Niles Coyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I once made a precision aiming system with a tube from a paper towel roll, thread and duct tape. worked great on my Crossman. This was of course before high dollar CQB scopes were available.


</div></div>


I can top that, when I was 6 I had one of those red ryder lever action BB guns, well I wound up duct taping some no name BB gun scope on top and since I had no Idea one could actually zero a scope I resorted to drawing a arrow on the objective glass in marker pointing to the point of impact. yep I was that cool.
 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

Anybody else sometimes get the feeling that the Engine is running but there is nobody behind the wheel....
 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rath</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anybody else sometimes get the feeling that the Engine is running but there is nobody behind the wheel.... </div></div>

ROFL! Took the words right out of my mouth......
 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

BINGO

HunterBear71 gets the prize.

I have been known to show up with about anything at a match and it pisses guys off no end to get beat with a POS. For instance we were at a match in Chattahoochee, Ga. once and that is a walking pace 300 yard range. We shot the 3 rapid and were going down to change targets to put up 600 reduced for 300 targets and there was one clean target no one was shooting on.

I asked the guys to hold up a bit as I wanted to try out something. I laid down with a Finnish 28/30 with original iron sights and shot a 99. Would have had a 100 if the group had been centered. We went down and guys with their 1500.00 M1As looked at it and just shook their heads. I told them I had 50.00 in mine.

I have taken a 03A3 and beat guys with Mod 70s and 40X course guns in matches.
 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

Post links to some match results mentioned. Results shut people up very quickly. Whether it be nay sayers or those that embellish their accomplishments.
 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

what i do not understand hummer if you would sell most of the scopes you listed the you could buy the best scopes and probably have money left over.
 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

I shot in many highpower matches in the Southeast region, and can tell you that there are lots, and I mean LOTS, of "characters" out there shooting highpower. Many of the folks here don't know what it takes to Leg Out and get a Distinguished badge, much less 2. How many hold a HM card? How many even hold a MA card? How many know that shooting smallbore at 100 is roughly equal (and damned good training) to shooting highpower at 600?

Folks just need to learn that there are some remarkable marksmen out there that have earned the respect for some of us to just shut up and listen. If you don't believe what they say, just nod your head, remain shut up and go away.

I kept my mouth shut at many matches and listened and learned from guys like Cliff Huston, Lew Marlette, Hugh Manis, Howard Walter etc. They were "the Old Guard" and I picked their brains and learned PLENTY.
 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

I'm a S/E HP shooter and I've shot with these guys and enjoyed every minute of it. They may be characters but they add a lot to a match and you can learn a lot. I still do.
 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

No disrespect intended by the use of the word 'character'. In some parts of the south it is an affectionate term used for a good ol' boy with a unique personality.
 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

Nuke MMC, hell there goes your reputation. I knew Hugh Manis for many years before he died. Cliff Huston is a legend in the Southeast and he has stayed with us several times. I understand Kitty is not doing well.
Reckon we better tell these guys that Cliff loved 1919A4 barrels for match rifles? He is the one that put 12 barrels on the same Mod 70 I referred to.
I guess you know Wil Hux and George Riquelme, Byron Davis, Paul Larson, Bob Schneller, Ray Kerbs, German and more I can't remember the names of that suffered at Blanding.

I have no plans to sell my Unertls/Lymans to buy internal adjustment scopes. I talked to John Unertl about this years ago and he said he had heard all the arguements and read the theories but that no one had ever been able to demonstrate the superiority of internal adjustment scopes to him. I have seen to many of them fail to take clicks reliably.
Larry Moore could have bought anything he wanted at any time and he still shot Lymans and Unertls. He could have chambered and fielded any caliber he wanted and he shot 30.06 his entire career and he won hundreds of matches and made 11 Palma Teams, maybe 20+ Dewar Teams, a Pershing Team and numerous national trophies.

I remember visiting him when I went out to RIA and he was showing me his guns and with a big sheepish grin he handed me his hunting rifle. It was a 1917 Enfield he had restocked with a sporter stock he made himself and put a scope on it. I asked him why the 1917 and he asked why not? I told him it was terrible for left hand rapid fire work and with a bigger grin he said, "Well it only takes one shot." I knew exactly where he came from on that one. He also showed me a Winchester 22 auto he had worked up to shoot smallbore matches and said it worked well until the NRA outlawed it for smallbore competition.

I made a special trip up to Perry this year for the 100th anniversary reunion of the Dewar Team and they put out a call for all previous Dewar Team members to attend so I made the drive. At the Dewar Team banquet David Kimes sat at our table and he told us about winning the World Championship and how he almost shot out his barrel in the warm up matches before the record firing started. Mark Delcotto sat next to me and showed me the digital photo of his 200-20X at 600 yards.

I came back with the best prize I ever got in Ohio though it wasn't from Perry. I came home with a backhoe bucket in the back of my stationwagon. They were going to charge me more for shipping than the gas cost to go get it and since I had to be in Ohio anyway I picked it up.






 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

Pictures please Hummer! Black and White is just fine.
Some of your recent scope work would be great but I already got a picture in me head of bucket in the station wagon
grin.gif

No one can make this stuff up, I believe, cause you believe every word and thanks for sharing!
 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

I certainly remember most of the names you mentioned. Wil is certainly someone I think of as one of the best friends I have. Wil, "Fingers" and Gene Pitts helped me train a bunch of Navy folks how to shoot the M14 DMR at Blanding back in 93. We also had the Jax Sheriff's Office SWAT snipers there. Took those guys out to 600 yards for the first time for most of them. I remember telling one guy to give me 48 clicks up from his 200yd zero on their Leupold VariX scope. He looked at me and thought I was absolutely insane. He made a couple berm shots after dialing in only 25 clicks, added 15 more...very hesitantly...got low on the target, adjusted another 12 up and started center-massing the silhouettes from then on. You would have really gotten a kick out of the look on his face when he learned how to dope a trace in a spotting scope!!!! Priceless!!!
I bought Hugh's space-gun upper from Bill Walter after Hugh's passing. Damned shame to see him go. I ran a handful of matches at Blanding between 1999 and 2002. Hugh was critical and hard to please, but everything he said had purpose and he never came to me with a range problem without a way to fix it. More than I can say for many folks.
Cliff sure is a legend. Seems to me he was pretty sold on Boots' barrels too. Cliff was shooting 5R barrels before anyone knew what they were besides he and Boots himself. I remember he and Kitty driving to all the matches in that white and pale blue van of theirs. When you saw it rolling up, you just KNEW there were going to be good times at that match. Last I heard, Chip was teaching at Wm & Mary. I remember his dad razzing him about taking so long to get that HM card. German Salazar, as far as I know, is now enjoying the fine shooting available in Arizona.
My dad has quite a few Lyman Target-Spots and Unertl's in his collection. One even came on a Model 54 in 30-06 with double-set triggers once owned by Bob Hoppe. Having shot many of the more modern scopes, I can vouch that some of the higher quality (and price) scopes do adjust very well, but I agree that an externally adjustable scope will always be more consistant and repeatable than an internal one. The internally adjustable tactical scopes just have a ruggedness and durability for today's combat and law enforcement applications that cannot be matched by the externals.
My dad once told me of coming back from Perry one year with the ammo allowance for the ROTC unit where he taught. He blew the belts in the tires of my mom's VW Quantum from the 14000 rounds of M2 ball somewhere around Worchester, MA.
I am sure we have shot at some of the same matches at one time or another. Blanding, Ft. Gordon, Ft. Benning, Ft. Jackson, etc. etc.

Good talking to you, sir.
 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

For some reason I can't place Gene Pitts by name but surely would know the face. By any chance was he a contractor? There was one guy down there that needed one leg and several of the Florida boys asked me if they could squad him with me and I said sure. Seems his name was Gene? At any rate he had got legs in smaller leg matches but this was the regional and guys were out for blood haha. I shot first relay and gave him my wind dope every yard line and he legged out. He was one of the happiest guys I ever saw that day. Next match he brought be a bottle of Cutty Sark and it took 20 years to finish it.

They liked to put new shooters with me as they knew I would help them build a foundation by giving them tips here and there.

Who was the old time long range hard gun who always drove the red Ford van? I am wanting to say Joe Phillips???? Cliff told me he died and a bunch of his guns disappeared he had left with someone to hold for him.

For those of you that do not know Cliff, he is one of those guys that can strike up a conversation with a phone pole and the pole will enjoy it immensely. I met him in 73, he was sitting on commerical row and I walked by carrying something he was interested in and he asked me a question and two hours later after we had barreled about eight rifles and loaded a couple thousand rounds Kitty came by and took him to chow.


Last I heard when I left the area the Blanding people were getting to be real pricks about getting the range etc. Do they still let us use the barracks with the funny shower towers?

Were you there the year that guy dropped dead climbing up to pit mound to get in pits? I wasn't there but wound up with his rifle from Cliff. Seems I heard Chip got married?

yeah I have bought perhaps two dozen tubes from Boots. Still got I think three packed away along with some Kreigers. Cliff is the one that showed me his way of barreling and I still use it with one exception on the way I hold the reamer. Actually there is another I am experimenting with on threading which seems to be working fine with a tip I got from Mitch Max.

The guy I miss the most is Dobber. He was a "real certified card carrying character". I first met him at Perry in 73 which I think was his first trip there. I almost went to Crane. They wanted me to take over all the match weapons supports for all the Navy Teams. Wish I had gone now but Lord had other plans for me and sent me to Aberdeen PG as Small Arms Test Director. My best day there I shot up $63,000.00 in ammo.

I still have my Blanding Memorial scope stand. I finally came up with a scope stand I could use while shooting standing and not worry about it falling over.

I won a regional there once and we got cut short and couldn't shoot the second 600 on Saturday. I had about a two point lead after first 600 and I knew my barrel needed to have foreplay before it would get up and run and I remember stopping and shooting five rounds in a ditch coming out of Stark. Steve Sosa (spelling???) from Jersey was down we were shooting together and we ran neck and neck back to 600 and I knew Steve was a hard gun and had a hammer to prove it.

Hunterbear, yeah I knew exactly what you were referring to haha. My wife figured that out real quick when we got married. For the rest of you, if you are a shooter in the South and you are not a "character" that means you won't be missed when you drop dead. I have to work hard to maintain my reputation and best way to do that here is win. Being a character has certain characteristics one of which is when you go somewhere and your reputation has preceeded you. Cliff Huston is the president of the association of characters.

This year at Perry I was sitting on trailer waiting to go to pits next to the guy I was going to pull with. Gus Geometti walks up and tells the guy next to me that I am famous. To my surprise the guy next to me said he had heard about me for years haha. I didn't know what to say haha.
 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

Hummer,

Post a couple pics of your swamp guns. Personally I would choose another optic but like to see projects that folks come up with.
 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

Sounds good but how do I go about putting pics on here? I tried to cut and paste but no luck.

I have fie of them built. One has a Leupold Scout scope, another a Burris, two of them have NC Star and one has Bausch & Lomb.

I will be n BHAM next weekend. Wife had eye surgery at UAB a month ago.
 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

As a SS instructor at Div. schools Camp Pendleton in the mid 80's I witnessed a student crack the rear lens on his scope. The student didn't have the lens cover on and what we found out was he was unsuccesfully trying to force a .45 patch down the barrel with the fragile brass cleaning rods we had and the rod snapped at the joint and smacked the lens, thereby cracking the lens. It would really take some force to punch one out though.IMO

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hummer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Since you are a Marine Scout Sniper please explain to me with all that marvelous training how Marine Snipers repeatedly rammed cleaning rods through the rear lens of the Unertl Sniper Scope? John Unertl was a friend of mine and he told me he got them in all the time to replace the rear lens because Marine snipers ran cleaning rods through rear lens on numerous occasions. John had been in the optical business for a thousand years and had never seen that scenario from anywhere.
</div></div>

This is the only part of that entire litany of rambling nonsense that I will even qualify with a response.

SOP for cleaning the M40A1 Sniper Rifle was to install scope caps prior to cleaning the bore. I never saw a Unertl that was punched out due to a cleaning rod. I can't even imagine the amount of force that would require. Without actually seeing the paperwork for "numerous occasions" I would have to say that the numbers were probably VERY low, however it's always more fun to embellish a story (like being in business for a THOUSAND years. I will have to ask John at USO though. Since they picked up the contract to refurb the 10x after Unertl went under if it was a common occurrence I am sure he would know about it.

It's been fun reading the rambling. I will now leave you with your "swap guns" and NC Stars and go back to my day job. Although I may take a trip down your way next year to see one of these abortions. I would like to see PI again and I believe you are in the same state.</div></div>
 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hummer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sounds good but how do I go about putting pics on here? I tried to cut and paste but no luck.

I have fie of them built. One has a Leupold Scout scope, another a Burris, two of them have NC Star and one has Bausch & Lomb.

I will be n BHAM next weekend. Wife had eye surgery at UAB a month ago. </div></div>

Follow the link in Lindy's post on how to post pics. I use Photobucket, there's nothing to it.

I have one of the Leupold Scouts my project Marlin. There are pros and cons to forward mounting the optic but this works for me.
IMG_0957.jpg


If you've got to go to the Hospital, UAB is one of the best. Hope all goes well with recovery.
 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

I didn't get too far past the part about the scope base for $10 and the rings for $12. With that kind of mounting, and without industrial strength epoxy, the scope you use might not matter.

Besides, when you can get a rugged fixed 10x SS Mildot for $275 used in the for sale section here, or a new entry-level Bushnell 10x Mildot for $170, why rely on a $40 2x scope?

I think that greater minds than ours have already been where you are going, and that there remain good reasons why the world is the way it is.
 
Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

OR...

You could just go buy a Centerpoint Mildot scope from Wal Mart and spend the same amount of money.

Then you can learn holdovers the correct way, AND you are ready to easily step up in equipment when budget allows. Plus, you will have the ability to accurately range a target with your reticle.

Why try to teach new shooters this convoluted method that they will have to re-learn the correct way when they get a traditional rig?

Really, what measurable advantage can one get from a 2x pistol scope over iron sights (other than holdovers, which I already covered)?

While I appreciate your inovation and accompisments, I think you are doing these folks a dis-service with theses setups.

I am sure these make for a great scout type setup, but a tactical long range rig?