Positional Shooting

[brickbd]

When training different positions, my standing sucks. I can't seem to get a good steady platform to shoot from. Any ideas to steady up a standing rifle shot. Whether it be 25 yds or 100 yrds..... my standing needs work. I KNOW, I KNOW...... Standing.... What? I just like to shot from all positions. Any ideas?!?






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[jaxx1671]

Re: Positional Shooting

What kind of weapon (IE Sniper, Assault or Hunting) are you shooting. Also tell the accessories you have on the weapon. Kinda different styles for different type of weapon and tactics.

 

[triton19]

Re: Positional Shooting

First, get a good sling. like a T.I.S. with quick cuff from Triad. Then get your gun and walk slowly forward with your sights on target keeping both elbows tucked in tight and your shoulders square. Upper body very slightly leaned forward stop with your feet slightly spread and offset with your knees slightly bent. This is a natural stance that should help you.

 

[cinosbus]

Re: Positional Shooting

Get a good, lightweight, iron sighted .22lr rifle and shoot a brick a month standing @ paper plates at 25yds with a 3" shoot-n-see in the middle. When you're not straying off the shoot-n-see....

Then switch over to your centerfire with a scope @ 25yds.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Positional Shooting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: brickbd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When training different positions, my standing sucks. I can't seem to get a good steady platform to shoot from. Any ideas to steady up a standing rifle shot. Whether it be 25 yds or 100 yrds..... my standing needs work. I KNOW, I KNOW...... Standing.... What? I just like to shot from all positions. Any ideas?!?</div></div>

The fundamentals are the fundamentals. It doesn't matter what position you are shooting from. Prone just lets you cheat better than offhand (standing).

If you are building a proper position using bone support and muscular relaxation, maintaining natural point of aim, breathing correctly, and breaking the shot at your natural respiratory pause, then you will be hitting your target.

A good sling is key. For this type of stuff I would recommend the TIS. It's easier to keep the cuff tight than with the TAB sling. You can also use a GI Web sling if you have an old Marine nearby to show you how to set one up as a loop sling.

Remember the wobble area. You will NOT be able to hold your sights on target. Allow them to move but control the movement. The skill is to break the shot when the sights are aligned not when you force them onto target.

I agree that a .22LR will help, but I don't suggest you find the lightest out there unless you are shooting a featherweight centerfire. Some of the muscles used for shooting a rifle offhand aren't used a lot in regular life. Dry firing with your heavy rifle will help build those muscles.

Dry fire. A lot.

Seek out a coach if you can.

 

[Powder_Burns]

Re: Positional Shooting

Shooting support like you get from a sling helps a lot. You should watch a few clips of olympic shooting sports ie smallbore offhand and air rifle 10m competitions. You can see the parallels and differences between everyone's shooting position and use the visual reference to see what works for you and what doesn't. Like LoneWolf pointed out the proper position and support comes from applying the fundamentals, it won't become easy or natural save for lots of practice.

 

[Emilio]

Re: Positional Shooting

Look up James Owens' book Leather Sling and Shooting Position. You can find it Creedmoor sports. Good easy read. They use to have the video I'm not sure if its on DVD now.

 

[cinosbus]

Re: Positional Shooting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The fundamentals are the fundamentals. It doesn't matter what position you are shooting from. Prone just lets you cheat better than offhand (standing). </div></div>

Definitely +1. All the practice in the world will not help if you're not practicing correctly.

My reasoning for the lightweight rifle comes from the opportunity to put more rounds downrange before tiring. If you can shoot 100rds offhand with that, you should be able to fire 10 or so with a heavy centerfire before you get tired.

Low weight high reps.

 

[brickbd]

Re: Positional Shooting

Thanks guys, Lots of grea advice/ ideas!

 

[ColBatGuano]

Re: Positional Shooting

Google Appleseed Project. $70 for two days of training and you will get your standing shooting dialed in from 50 to 400 yards, whether carbine or scoped rifle. For under 50 follow Triton19's advice.

For any position learn the fundamentals of NPOA (Google it), Natural Respiratory Pause, Trigger Press, Follow Through, and Calling The Shot.

Get an Airsoft or pellet rifle and practice 10 shoots standing, and in every position, every day on a 4 MOA target, concentrating on those fundamentals, and you will quickly see an improvement. If that's not practical put snapcaps in your rifle and dry fire the same regimen on a wall in your house using a quarter-inch piece of black tape as a target.



I am not affiliated with Appleseed, just got a lot out of their course.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Positional Shooting

I like the advice you got from LoneWolfUSMC, one thing though, shooting in Service Rifle competition, the sling is in the parade position, not used hastily or looped, still, standing scores produced by good shooters rival their sitting scores, a position which does allow loop sling support. The idea here is that in the real world time may not allow for any sort of sling support. Also, practicing without sling will encourage position development to a higher plateau than possible with the aid of a sling support.

Now, in context to NRA or CMP governed shooting competitions, without some coaching from a highly qualified coach, that means your coach can actually demonstrate the position, producing a convincing result, you will have difficulty coming to know what a proper position looks and/or feels like; and, subsequent practice will not yield the consistency needed to get the job done.

The problem with some introductory shooting programs is the coaching staff includes volunteers, although well intentioned and enthusiastic, do not have enough experience with any of this marksmanship stuff to be coaching anyone. In fact, they may only be recent graduates of the program they serve, with no shooting credentials from any arena. They still have much to learn and their poor shooting proves it. At the least, seek out a coach who's got a resume that suggests he knows how to shoot. Tell the coach, "let me see you do it". BTW, there are some folks who clearly do know how to do it yet do not know how to teach you much of anything; nevertheless, if you want to be a Master, having a Master mentor you is a good route if it's open.

One way or another, after you've come to terms with a proper position, blind plot and call practice, as often as possible, will help you get up to speed. This comprehensive practice will help you with stamina, motor memory, and zero refinement, in addition to helping you resolve the position to perfection. I'm not going to detail this practice routine unless any here want it. I suspect there's not much interest.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Positional Shooting

I'm with SS on this. Its hard to get someone in any position on the internet. All people are built differant, requiring differant modifications to your positions.

The answer is simple, get a good coach. Someone who can work you into a postition that works for you and your body build.

A good example, my wife broke her back in '99. It was fixed, KIND OF. She got deployed at the first of this war. Like all others, had to go through the pre-deployment process at the Benning School for Boys. In qualifying, she couldnt get any prone postition that would work. I went to Jackson, then to Benning to be with her before she left. When we figured out the problem, I went to the AMU, told them our problem, they sent a guy to the range to HELP HER. She shot the best prone she ever shot.

Not all of us have access to the AMU, but every state has a CMP affiliated club, most put on High Power Clinics, and most have excellent coaches that will work with you to get you in any position that fits you.

The best place to start, is to go to the CMP Bookstore Websight and invest $6.95 in the USAMU's Service Rifle Guide. It will help you with you postitions, UNTIL you can find a coach.

You may or may not be shooting service rifle, but fundementals are fundementals.

I will add that there is one fundemental that often gets left out of these discussions and that is: RELAX, you cant shoot any postition if you arnt relaxed.

Practice is worthless if you arn't doing it right. Forget the sling, a sling gets in the way offhand, and dosnt help a bit. You need to get away from using any mussles to hold the rifle, the sling gives you the false impression that you arnt using mussles. Use a palm rest, it dosnt have to be part of the rifle, the palm rest can be you hand-arm-elbow resting on your side or stomick,(depending on your position).

Bust like what was said above, nothing beats a good coach, let him watch you shoot, then let him make adjustments, but remember, the best coach in the world is useless if you dont listen too him.

In coaching for the NG, I noticed there are way too many know-it-alls with the "yeah yeah yeah" and in reality dont listen. Those guys are great when you are coaching a service team, you always need target pullers.

 

[ColBatGuano]

Re: Positional Shooting

Sterling Shooter: I would appreciate any data you have time to post on your recommended practice regimen.

Thanks LoneWolf and kraigWY for the solid info.

Internet is a tough venue to provide coaching in, and certainly the best approach is to find the best coach and then put in the time. But sometimes that's not practical and you have to pick up pieces of the puzzle here and there. As far as the sling goes, for me it's a matter of what situation you are in. I only know what I know and I'm ready to learn more. For me the sling aids my long distance shooting when I have the time and conditions to use it. Given a choice and compliant terrain, I shoot long shots off a pack, prone or seated. Not being a competitive shooter I view the sling as one tool in the toolbox. Only useful for particular applications, but better to have it and know how to use it, than not have it when you need it. If there is a technique that allows me to achieve the same results without a sling, and if I can get someone to explain it to me, then I will switch to it.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Positional Shooting

First, take the sling out of the picture, or use it in the parade position. Get a data book, and plenty 200 yard reduced course targets for shooting at 100 yards. These will be marked SR-1. Now, in a 50 minute period, you'll alternate dry and live fire on a single target placed at 100 yards, plotting both dry and live calls on a 200 yard target page from the data book. Only after the 50 minute/20 live round period will you observe and plot the actual strikes in data book. BTW, don't set the target too low or too high, you want the bore reasonably horizontal.

A corollary between plots and strikes will quickly address your skill, no matter the actual placement. A good corollary means you need nothing more than a sight adjustment. No corollary, then you could have a multitude of problems; but, if you're getting good results from the prone position, assuring basic marksmanship concepts have earlier been mastered, work on muscular relaxation, adjusting NPA until the sight wobble is confined to the bullseye. Keep the sight in focus, not only to have exact recognition for where the barrel is pointed but to fool the brain into thinking the bullseye is at the front sight. This inspires confidence. After all the target is only inches away, not something way out there that just looks too small to hit.

For starters here's a tip, bring the rifle's stock to the head, not the head to stock. The higher the position the higher the stock. This is where the position begins, understanding, of course, that you've already placed your feet shoulder width apart and somewhat perpendicular to target. Starting here makes it easier to adjust NPA to perfection, which is the whole thing to the standing position. Also, maximize bone support, inverting the elbow of the non-firing arm onto your body, if possible. Control sight height from the small of your back and adjust NPA by moving the whole body with your feet.

I fear without a coach you may still not get a proper start with all of this. Kinda like you're on an airplane and the pilot parachutes, leaving you to fly the plane.. and land it. What I'm saying here is that you may crash, trying to do this without some help. Thing is, a highly qualified coach could get you up to speed on this in less time than it took me to write this post.

Take Kraig's advice and get a copy of the USAMU's Marksmanship Guide, or go to the AMU's web site and download BRM classes. These files are apparently corrupted, but there's one slide which shows the standing position with instruction on building it. This may help you, you know monkey see, monkey do sort of thing.

 

[fepowered]

Re: Positional Shooting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ColBatGuano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Google Appleseed Project. $70 for two days of training </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The problem with some introductory shooting programs is the coaching staff includes volunteers, although well intentioned and enthusiastic, do not have enough experience with any of this marksmanship stuff to be coaching anyone. In fact, they may only be recent graduates of the program they serve, with no shooting credentials from any arena. They still have much to learn and their poor shooting proves it. At the least, seek out a coach who's got a resume that suggests he knows how to shoot. Tell the coach, "let me see you do it". BTW, there are some folks who clearly do know how to do it yet do not know how to teach you much of anything; nevertheless, if you want to be a Master, having a Master mentor you is a good route if it's open.</div></div>

While it is true that only a minority of Appleseed instructors have the experience (credentials) of consistently shooting at the Master level at 600yd High Power matches, you can be confident that most any Full Red Hat Appleseed instructor is capable of shooting a Master level score at a 100yd reduced size target High Power match. If you can not demonstrate proper technique and score at a level which demonstrates it, you are not made an instructor.
An Appleseed is the equivalent to a 2 day Service Rifle Clinic on steroids. More time is spent on technique and drills than actually shooting a match. The option to use a sling in the off hand position is the marked exception. A Hasty sling in off hand is not enough of a "crutch" to hurt your technique should you move on to High Power.
I can tell you that my involvement in Appleseed has improved my High Power Scores.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Positional Shooting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fepowered</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ColBatGuano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Google Appleseed Project. $70 for two days of training </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The problem with some introductory shooting programs is the coaching staff includes volunteers, although well intentioned and enthusiastic, do not have enough experience with any of this marksmanship stuff to be coaching anyone. In fact, they may only be recent graduates of the program they serve, with no shooting credentials from any arena. They still have much to learn and their poor shooting proves it. At the least, seek out a coach who's got a resume that suggests he knows how to shoot. Tell the coach, "let me see you do it". BTW, there are some folks who clearly do know how to do it yet do not know how to teach you much of anything; nevertheless, if you want to be a Master, having a Master mentor you is a good route if it's open.</div></div>

While it is true that only a minority of Appleseed instructors have the experience (credentials) of consistently shooting at the Master level at 600yd High Power matches, you can be confident that most any Full Red Hat Appleseed instructor is capable of shooting a Master level score at a 100yd reduced size target High Power match. If you can not demonstrate proper technique and score at a level which demonstrates it, you are not made an instructor.
An Appleseed is the equivalent to a 2 day Service Rifle Clinic on steroids. More time is spent on technique and drills than actually shooting a match. The option to use a sling in the off hand position is the marked exception. A Hasty sling in off hand is not enough of a "crutch" to hurt your technique should you move on to High Power.
I can tell you that my involvement in Appleseed has improved my High Power Scores. </div></div>

I'm glad there are folks out there who undertake to teach this stuff, including folks involved with Appleseed. I did not know there was any sort of vetting. Thanks for the news. My unsubstantiated opinion is a shooter who develops marksmanship with iron sights can learn everything important to good shooting; and, eventually, this shooter can apply those skills to any sort of firearm and sight. I think learning to shoot with a scope is a distraction to comprehending a few concepts important to good shooting, such as stockweld and NPA. The shooter with scope tends to overlook stockweld and NPA in his haste to establish a relationship between reticle and target. And, even when consistent stockweld is mandated, the shooter can not perceive perfection as can be easily recognized with irons. Nevertheless since perfection is necessary with a scope too, to minimize parallax error, something less than perfect makes shooter/target analysis more of a challenge, that's to say, understanding the source of error. It's hard to trouble shoot when there seem to be no symptoms for what is happening on target.

 

[Snakum]

Re: Positional Shooting

Boy can I sympathize with this one.

My standing and kneeling unsupported shooting continue to hammer me. Totally bolo'd it in my last comp. I've read everything on the net about the two positions and have had a couple of folks look at my setup. Since I started using the TAB sling cuff properly and making myself dry-fire unsupported a lot more, I've doubled my accuracy. But I really need a good, well-experienced shooter to watch me cuz 75% kneeling and 50% standing at 100 yards won't cut it hunting or for competition.

Anyone around Fayetteville or Raleigh willing to take a peek at the horror that is my unsupported shooting? I'll buy the bullets, provide a private range, and pay for lunch.

 

[doc76251]

Re: Positional Shooting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: brickbd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When training different positions, my standing sucks. I can't seem to get a good steady platform to shoot from. Any ideas to steady up a standing rifle shot. Whether it be 25 yds or 100 yrds..... my standing needs work. I KNOW, I KNOW...... Standing.... What? I just like to shot from all positions. Any ideas?!? </div></div>

They call standing "Awful Hand" for a reason. The key to standing is to avoid it if at all possible. That being said, use as much body support as possible as well as any "aids" to stability you may employ. A sling comes to mind. You will NEVER EVER stand completely still supporting a rifle. Minimize the wobble through technique and TIMING. Practice with an air rifle or slow(er) velocity .22 RF. As you have noted the more you dry fire and practice positional shooting the more accurate you will become.......to a point. From there you must shoot for real.

Cheers,

Doc

 

[Chiller]

Re: Positional Shooting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fepowered</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ColBatGuano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Google Appleseed Project. $70 for two days of training </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The problem with some introductory shooting programs is the coaching staff includes volunteers, although well intentioned and enthusiastic, do not have enough experience with any of this marksmanship stuff to be coaching anyone. In fact, they may only be recent graduates of the program they serve, with no shooting credentials from any arena. They still have much to learn and their poor shooting proves it. At the least, seek out a coach who's got a resume that suggests he knows how to shoot. Tell the coach, "let me see you do it". BTW, there are some folks who clearly do know how to do it yet do not know how to teach you much of anything; nevertheless, if you want to be a Master, having a Master mentor you is a good route if it's open.</div></div>

While it is true that only a minority of Appleseed instructors have the experience (credentials) of consistently shooting at the Master level at 600yd High Power matches, you can be confident that most any Full Red Hat Appleseed instructor is capable of shooting a Master level score at a 100yd reduced size target High Power match. If you can not demonstrate proper technique and score at a level which demonstrates it, you are not made an instructor.
An Appleseed is the equivalent to a 2 day Service Rifle Clinic on steroids. More time is spent on technique and drills than actually shooting a match. The option to use a sling in the off hand position is the marked exception. A Hasty sling in off hand is not enough of a "crutch" to hurt your technique should you move on to High Power.
I can tell you that my involvement in Appleseed has improved my High Power Scores. </div></div>

I appreciate everything you are saying here and unfortunately I need to disagree with you as it relates to an Appleseed being able to shoot Master. I am currently going down that road IIT 1 and my 240 was one of the highest AQT they had seen. Appleseed is sling based including the offhand. Service is not sling for the offhand (ask me how I know).

 

[6mmFan]

Re: Positional Shooting

OK- I am going to get some boos for this.... If you ever look at David Tubbs shooting off hand you will notice that he does NOT use a sling. That is because the sling doesn’t help with offhand shooting. If you look at his stance you will see the key features:

His toes are parallel to his bore centerline.
His feet are parallel to each other.
His left elbow is as tight to his body as possible.
His right elbow is high and his right arm is parallel to the ground.
Only the bottom tip of his butt stock makes contact with his shoulder. (On the T2K this is not so because the stock is almost infinitely adjustable- but if he were shooting service rifle this would be imperative. – Why? Because bringing the rear of the rifle up allows the shooter to keep his head more erect. A more erect head means better balance.)

To get into this position, point your toes at 90 degrees to the target- Point the rifle into the sky- Put the tip of the butt stock into your shoulder- Lower the muzzle and twist your shoulders until you are on target.

Don't try to stop the movement of the muzzle just try to control it, and press the trigger just before you achieve the proper sight picture.

Using a rifle with a magazine that sticks well below the stock may help.

I highly recommend David Tubbs’ book “Rifle Shooter”

Any bigtime Highpower shooters feel free to correct me.

I hope this helps.

 

[doc76251]

Re: Positional Shooting

The reason Tubb doesn't use a sling is because it's not AUTHORIZED in Highpower off hand but must be attached to the rifle.

Cheers,

Doc

 

[6mmFan]

Re: Positional Shooting

OK - you got me there- but I don't believe that it would help anyway because you don't develop the isometric tension offhand that you would in sitting or prone.

 

[Juan Valdez]

Re: Positional Shooting

When it comes to shooting offhand using your skeletal structure for support, I think about the way your head sits on your shoulders. Your neck is curved and behaves as a spring to support your 8ish lb head. If you lean your head forward, you straighten that curve and start feeling the muscle tension in the back of your neck as THE MUSCLES have to start holding it on.

I try to apply the same "spring" concept to my entire body to support the weight of the rifle and my upper body. I get my feet aligned for a natural point of aim, suck my supporting elbow up against my torso, then slightly lean back with my hips forward. My shoulders are pretty much directly over my feet, but my hips are forward creating a curve through my entire body with the weight sitting on top. Just like your knoggin.

I find my wobble is smaller and I don't fatigue as easily doing this.

My $.02

 

[MTETM]

Re: Positional Shooting

OP and anyone else looking for solid building points for positional shooting...
I would suggest downloading this manual free from the CMP.

http://odcmp.com/Programs/TeachingRiflePositions.pdf

If you want more detail, purchase the CMP coaches manual for 4.95.

Then, if money is not an object, purchase a Daisy 888 air rifle and a case of 10/10 10 meter air rifle targets. Build a trap for the 10/10's and place it at the end of the hall or the end of the shop/garage. Now you have a way to practice positions and record your actual results on your call and plotted positions. Shoot 1 pellet in each bull. Record your call and continue.

You will be force to establish NPA for every shot, you will know if you don't just by looking at the target.

You can mount a scope on the 888, dovetail rail.

Have fun...