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Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

Phil1

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 3, 2009
465
7
Minot N.D.
There seems to be more and more shooters shooting the .224 and .308 well past the ranges where the bullet is subsonic. In some cases there seems to be an immediate divergance in bullet flight, in others little.

It seems as though more than mere stability due to the rotation of the bullet in flight is at issue. Or is it? The article that got me thinking is this http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/shooting-223-mile-1.php

Obviously .056"@ 200 yds is a great starting point. But the article points out that the Bergers that were used for that group were replaced by A-max 75-80 gr. bullets.

Lets discuss smaller caliber post transonic varables for sub MOA and MOA accuracy(what else matters).

 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

Lots of heavy math needed. A 300 Whisper can do that kind of accuracy at 1K and it's subsonic right now. 6.5x284 will blow off a 308 at any range, so maybe it's more about SD than velocity.
 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

The real question one might ask is, Why bother? While no one I know is going to volunteer to get shot with anything, and a hole is better than no hole, if the object of the exercise is to inflict damage on the target, a 75 gr .223 at 740 fps is probably not the way to do it, given the alternative of a 250gr .338 at 1100 fps.

Of couse, if the object is simply to see if it can be done, we already seem to have the answer.
 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The real question one might ask is, Why bother? While no one I know is going to volunteer to get shot with anything, and a hole is better than no hole, if the object of the exercise is to inflict damage on the target, a 75 gr .223 at 740 fps is probably not the way to do it, given the alternative of a 250gr .338 at 1100 fps.

Of couse, if the object is simply to see if it can be done, we already seem to have the answer. </div></div>

1. The cost of a larger caliber(.338) is exponential as compared to the .30 and smaller. Many of the actions of the .338 Edge(class) and up cost more than a entire .22 cal. rifle.

2. There is with the last decade many more bullets suitable for long range shooting in the .30 and sub .30 range.In addition, almost every rifle barrel manufacturer is offering fast twist barrels(those calibers).

3. There are alot more rifles chambered in .30 and sub .30 cal. designed for heavy and high B.C. bullets than .338 and over, ALOT!! Obviously shooters are interested in establishing the limits of LD & VLD bullets in lighter and less expensive rifles.

4. "A 75 gr .223 cal bullet at 740 fps is probably not the way to do it", do what? I'm thinking of foxes, rockchucks and other similar small varmints. For which a .338 is unnecessary. The aforementioned .22 of which, is entirely adequate.

5. Beyond that, paper punching dosn't evaulate KE,killing power, hole size, etc. For which a .338 or .50 cal hole is immaterial to any score.

6. Finally, your suggestion that "if the object is simply to see if it can be done, we already seem to have the answer." Suggests that if its been done by someone else that I or anyone else, would derive no satisfaction from approaching, or duplicating, such a similar event personally.
 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lots of heavy math needed. A 300 Whisper can do that kind of accuracy at 1K and it's subsonic right now. 6.5x284 will blow off a 308 at any range, so maybe it's more about SD than velocity. </div></div>

But with the whisper, many are the loads are entirely subsonic.

My intent with this thread is to discuss the "myth" or is it a physical fact backed by empirical study. That bullets become more unstable subsequent to the transition to subsonic flight. That as such, the accurate range of any bullet, or certain bullets(and calibers)should be limited to the distances where the bullet transitions to subsonic flight.To maintain that MOA or less standard.

 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

Bullets after the going through the transonic become upset and tumble. These loads are easily identified by the full profile impacts on paper targets at 1000 yards. Also back on the spotting scope at the 1000 yard line, if the climatic conditions are right, you can actually see the point where the bullet tumbles with the bullet trace upset in the air. Flight characteristics after bullet upset are unpredictable.

I'm not an aero engineer, just a pilot but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express on the last layover!
 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

It is a myth, and we've know that since WWI and the Sandy Hook tests. True, some bullets don't stay stable, but MOST actually do. Varmint hunting at 1700+ yards has been going on for a very long time, I can remember reading about a groundhog shot at 1830 yards being a recond, but that was many years ago. Predicting the trajectory is a serious problem, but can be overcome. Many just shoot until some impact lets them figure it out.

Shooting a group at such ranges is FAR more about conditions than anything else, shooter, rifle, ammo, etc. When 1 MPH if wind moves the strike 1 MOA, a 1 MOA group is as much luck as skill. NO ONE, NOT ANYONE, can discern a 1 MPH wind shift at 1760 yards.

So, if you want to DELIBERATLY and CONSISTENTLY shoot a 1 MOA target at a mile, anything that goes subsonic at 1K is going to have a problem, NOT because of instability, but because of wind drift. Add the additional difficulties of precise range and starting velocity and that's why the big boomers exist.
 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is a myth, and we've know that since WWI and the Sandy Hook tests. True, some bullets don't stay stable, but MOST actually do. Varmint hunting at 1700+ yards has been going on for a very long time, I can remember reading about a groundhog shot at 1830 yards being a recond, but that was many years ago. Predicting the trajectory is a serious problem, but can be overcome. Many just shoot until some impact lets them figure it out.

Shooting a group at such ranges is FAR more about conditions than anything else, shooter, rifle, ammo, etc. When 1 MPH if wind moves the strike 1 MOA, a 1 MOA group is as much luck as skill. NO ONE, NOT ANYONE, can discern a 1 MPH wind shift at 1760 yards.

So, if you want to DELIBERATLY and CONSISTENTLY shoot a 1 MOA target at a mile, anything that goes subsonic at 1K is going to have a problem, NOT because of instability, but because of wind drift. Add the additional difficulties of precise range and starting velocity and that's why the big boomers exist. </div></div>

Thats what I thnk.

Because if there was a natural physical dynamic for the creation of instability through the transonic zone all bullets would become inacurate and that .223 aforementioed clearly did not. In addition lots of other bullets maintain tight groups well subsonic.

 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

Our finnish friends here at SH have reported up to 2000 m shooting wiht 338 LM and 250 gr Lapua Scenars or Lock Base bullets, long after transonic range.

I would like to know about the barrels used (factory or custom? twist?) and the accuracy that can be expected in MOA.
 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

Read the book THE EMMA GEES (brit phonetic for MG) and you will learn that they were shoortng Vickers at 2000+ yards at out of sight targets. Send out a spotter, zero in on a road junction, wait for the Huns to march by and call in fire.
Worked fine and was very demoralizing as it was "silent death". Those were 174 gr 303s which were very subsonice at that range.
Lots of 1000 yard shooting done back in the day with 30-40 Krags with 220 gr round nose bullets. Historic targets published in Arms and the Man showed no evidence of bullet tipping.
 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

I agree, going to all the trouble of getting onto the target and then getting there with a love tap probably isn't the best approach. Splitting the atom and dropping a substantial part of a mountain onto the target probably lacks some finesse as well.

It's a question of proportions.

I save the .223 for varmints, keep such shots for within 500yd, preferably within 300yd, and my world continues to turn in greased grooves.

Beyond that I consider the .260 appropriate for Varmints from 200-500yd wih lighter bullets, and wouldn't consider using 140-ish grain bullets out to 1000yd to be a complete waste of ballistic potential.

For the very rare instances where I need more ooomph or more distance, I like the .30-'06 with bullets ranging from 125gr to 175gr.

Brush shooting, Win '94/.44Mag. or a 20ga with slugs, sabots,or #4 buck, either with a dot scope.

While I am aware that utilizing the trans/subsonic portion of the trajectory can yield hits, I tend not to go there.

Greg
 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

+1, have yet to meet the varmint, bird or big game animal that can't be be approached within 400 yards.
 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A 300 Whisper can do that kind of accuracy at 1K and it's subsonic right now.</div></div>

I'd like to see the 300 Whisper that shoots sub-MOA at 1000y.
 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jthyttin</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A 300 Whisper can do that kind of accuracy at 1K and it's subsonic right now.</div></div>

I'd like to see the 300 Whisper that shoots sub-MOA at 1000y. </div></div>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Probably not too many in Finland, soon to be less......

"However, in November 2007 the Finnish government declared that it is prepared to raise the age limit for acquiring firearms to 18 years. As this change coincided with the Jokela school shooting, where the perpetrator was above age 18, gun control opponents have questioned the timing."</div></div>


SO can you show him one or you just spouting shit?? I am sure he doesn't need you to recite what Finnish gov't is trying to do.
No need for you to try and change subject away from his comment towards yours.

Thanks
 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now I await the expert in ballistics to explain to me WHY a 300 W CANNOT shoot MOA at 1K? There is no connection between velocity and accuracy, if there were a 220 Swift would out shoot a 222 Remington (which it does not)</div></div>

I think the question asked is if you know of or have shot a .300 whisper that is capable of 1 MOA at 1,000 yards. I am sure if you are just trying to see if the bullet can make it to 1,000 yards it will, but I have never heard of someone able to shoot a whisper at 1,000 with any results, so I would be interested in if it can be done or not too, not theoretically

DD
 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cactus in your bedroll? It was a joke!

Now I await the expert in ballistics to explain to me WHY a 300 W CANNOT shoot MOA at 1K? There is no connection between velocity and accuracy, if there were a 220 Swift would out shoot a 222 Remington (which it does not) </div></div>

Since you made the assertion, you should be the one to prove it correct. We sort of doubt it's a common occurence, what with the 3.6 second flight time to 1000 yards and the 1680+ inches of elevation needed to get there. So, please provide tangible proof of a group that is bigger than 1 shot at 1000 yards with a .300 Whisper with a subsonic muzzle velocity.
 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cactus in your bedroll? It was a joke!

Now I await the expert in ballistics to explain to me WHY a 300 W CANNOT shoot MOA at 1K? There is no connection between velocity and accuracy, if there were a 220 Swift would out shoot a 222 Remington (which it does not)</div></div>

SOOO are you going to provide proof to your original statement quoted below or is your plan to continue with attempts to reroute the questions asked of you?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> A 300 Whisper can do that kind of accuracy at 1K and it's subsonic right now.</div></div>
 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

I am still waiting for ballistics evidence that the starting velocity has any effect on relative accuracy.
 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

Never met a varmint, bird or big game animal that cant be approached within 400 yards?

Your ego is the size of Wyoming....errr wait i meant New York.

You havent hunted much.
 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

"Yup only been hunting for 50 years so I dont know s#$%."

Replace the word so with still.

 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

Maybe you are just having trouble communicating? But you are dodging what you stated earlier... You state:

Never met a varmint, bird or big game animal that cant be approached within 400 yards

But when called out on it, you divert saying that you have never shot an animal past that range... that doesn't justify the statement.

It the first statement, you are saying that you have never seen an animal out past 400 yards that you were not able to get up to within 400 yards and make a killing shot. In the second statement you are saying that you chose not to shoot past 400 yards except on P-Dogs, and will not attempt it on big game... Or in the second statement are you implying that you have no need to shoot past 400 yards, because there isn't a game animal out there that you can't sneak to within 400 yards of? To me that statement is full of ego whether hunting is about ego or not to you... It is one thing to set personal limits to your shooting distance, and to do that within the confines of your own ethics, however, it is quite a different statement to suggest that you could get to within 400 yards of any animal in the world. But I am just a young guy, so maybe I just haven't learned how to get the drop on every living creature yet
laugh.gif



Dave



 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am still waiting for ballistics evidence that the starting velocity has any effect on relative accuracy. </div></div>

I will be happy to explain things to you.

In the real world, with wind and changing conditions, bullet flight time is not your friend. In order to form small groups with bullets at 1000 yards, one tries to minimize the time between when one has doped the conditions and has pulled the trigger and the time the bullet finally gets to the target. At 1000 yards, my bullet flight time is about 1.6 seconds. Your subsonic 300 Whisper will take an additional 2 seconds to do the same trip; more than double the time. When you look across 1000 yards, the conditions are always changing, at various parts of the range. There are pickups, let-offs, turnarounds, and other fun things that the wind does and it changes quickly. The nasty surprises are the wind gusts out of nowehere and the worse, to me, are the sudden let-offs. These occur in seconds.

The more time spent in flight, the more time the bullet has to be played with by the wind. Can you turn in a nice tight 5-shot group (say 1.5MOA) with a subsonic 300 Whisper at 1000 yards? It can probably happen. And when it does, take pictures of it and record it well, because it may well be a once in a lifetime event.

Because of the huge drop of the bullet, 1680 inches for 1000 yards, your distance and elevation had better be perfect because an estimation error of just a dozen yards at 1000 yards is going to mean a diffence in elevation that will surprise you.

After almost 25 years shooting in 1000 yard competitions, I am fairly certain you will have difficulty even staying on paper at 1000 yard with your subsonic 300 Whisper in anything but a perfectly calm day and those are rare.
 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

Mr. (not so) Humble,

No one is trying to debate classical education or the ethics of shooting animals past 400 yards with you, we are simply trying to get you to back up simple statements that you made in this thread. You have evaded and diverted the questions with the prowess of a finely oiled political spinster.
 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

I haven't been reading SH for some days. Guys, thanks for quoting Mr. Humble, so I was able to read the stuff he's since deleted!

Mr. Humble seems so arrogant and misinformed that I mainly try to ignore him. Recently I've been infortunate enough to clash with him in 3 threads, this one being the clearest example of his attitude etc.

As you guys pointed out, I was trying to semi-politely dispute the claim about 1MOA/1000y/300Whisper. BTW, I'm looking forward extending my SS reach to maybe 500 meters during this summer, with the Barnard/Robertson/LW 510 Whisper I start building next week!
 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

The big problem is that he was asking us to prove a negative, which is really impossible. He made the claim that he could have a 1MOA subsonic 300 Whisper at 1000 yards and then said that we had to prove to him that it was impossible. He had it a little backward,it's more like he made the claim, he should prove it. Since he could not, he turned it around.

It's very much like manmade global warming, someone makes the claim it exists and then says "prove to me it's not happening."
 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

Question, the 308 stay in 1-1,5 MOA accuracy at 1000m?
Thank you
 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GeKados</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Question, the 308 stay in 1-1,5 MOA accuracy at 1000m?
Thank you </div></div>

Yes, I was shooting my factory Savage 308 w/ 175SMKs at 1,300yards and holding 1 MOA.
 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

In your opinion and experience, how far he will go in 1 or 1.5 MOA accuracy?
Thank you
 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

1300 is as far as I've gone. At this type of distance with a 308 wind is the biggest factor of getting a decent group. 1 MPH increase can make a big difference and that is hard to discern.
 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

I've watched guys shoot 175 SMK's at 1740yd at a 12" square on the Thunder Valley range. At a mile 1.5 MOA is appx 25" across and from watching through my NPR1 reticle it was obvious that the bullets were staying within about 1-1.5MOA vertical, the wind at that distance was pushing the groups open to about 3-4 MOA across.

Considering that appx 50% of the trip was made subsonic, that's quite impressive.
 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

bohem, impressive indeed...

do you think this behavior is consistent, or every once in a while there is a very wild shoot due to the transonic transition?
 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

It's bullet dependent. There are some bullets which transition well under virtually all atmospheric conditions, there are many bullets which won't transition until you shoot them from the top of Pike's Peak at 20 inHg.

The 175 SMK is a transition-tolerant bullet that does very well under a lot of conditions.

Conversely the 168 SMK has a lot of trouble transitioning.

Many of the VLD's that I've shot have issues as well until low atmospheric pressures are in play.

If you have a bullet like the 175 SMK that works well and you get an oddball shot, more than likely you have some sort of oddball bullet that has a defect of some sort involved.

The 180 Berger Hybrid 7mm bullet has a fantastic BC and I get great results from it inside of 1850yd (give or take 100yd depending on conditions). No matter what I do, results are erratic from my 9twist 7/300 WSM at 2000yd.

Conversely the 175 SMK has a BC that's about 75 points lower, but it has remained stable and point first to 1930yd under the same conditions where I'm lucky to see a bullet splash on the side of the mountain from the 180 Hybrids.

Shooting past the sound barrier has a lot of qualifiers, however, with a bullet that remains stable through transition it can be done with exceptional repeatability.

Here are some of the bullets that I know transition under the following conditions:

35F 29.7inHg (these are not quite as bad as STP, but they're close)

68 Hrn BTHP in 22c (9tw)
75 Hrn BTHP in 22c (9tw)

140 Amax in 6.5mm (8.5tw)
142 SMK in 6.5mm (8.5tw)

175 SMK in 7mm (9tw)

178 Amax in 30c (10 & 11.25tw)
208 Amax in 30c (10tw)
175 SMK in 30c (10 & 11.25tw)
220 SMK in 30c (10tw)

Here's a few that I know don't work under the following conditions:

85F 28.7 inHg

140 Berger VLD in 6.5mm (8tw)

162 Amax in 7mm (9tw)
180 Berger VLD in 7mm (9tw)
180 Berger Hybrid in 7mm (9tw)
Suspected that the new 180 SMK 7mm is not going to transition either, but I haven't given it enough testing to see yet

168 SMK in 30c (10w)

300 SMK in 33c (10tw)

ETA: In regard to the 7mm 180 VLD from Berger, I did not get it to transition but SkyKing is getting it to 2000yd.

The important piece to note here is the conditions that he was measuring when the shots took place:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skyking</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The conditions where - temp 58, Humidity 38% station pressure 23.84, </div></div>

23.84 inHg is MUCH MORE IDEAL for making the bullets work through the sound barrier. As I said above, atmospheric pressure has a lot to do with transonic stability.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2064145#Post2064145
 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phil1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lots of heavy math needed. A 300 Whisper can do that kind of accuracy at 1K and it's subsonic right now. 6.5x284 will blow off a 308 at any range, so maybe it's more about SD than velocity. </div></div>

But with the whisper, many are the loads are entirely subsonic.

My intent with this thread is to discuss the "myth" or is it a physical fact backed by empirical study. That bullets become more unstable subsequent to the transition to subsonic flight. That as such, the accurate range of any bullet, or certain bullets(and calibers)should be limited to the distances where the bullet transitions to subsonic flight.To maintain that MOA or less standard.

</div></div>

Here's the quick and dirty as I've seen it. Some bullets are more susceptable to becoming radically unstable when approaching the transonic range. Some become unstable but not so radical. Some it doesn't seem to affect.

These are the factors I've seen that affect stability:
Altitude- The higher the altitude you are shooting the thinner the air and less effect on the bullet.
Temperature- The higher the temperature I've found the less bullets get affected.
Condition of air/air density- Humidity and high density altitude (hot days typically show higher altitudes {density altitude is given like altitude; high altitude=high density altitude}) A humid day acts like a hot day. Low number of hg's means bullet flies better. High less so.

Example: shooting here in MN in the summer it isn't that hard to get a 168 CC or SMK to get to 1k without key-holing. Temps usually run about 80-84 deg. and humidity here is 80-90% Actual altitude is 1000 ft. The bullet enters the transonic range around 890 yds. In the summertime they stay stable. But, in the winter when the temp is 40 deg. or below you have a tough time keeping them stable out to even 900. At -18F. ...well you can imagine.

Barrel twist: The tighter the twist the better I've seen bullets remain stable. No matter what bullet is used and all other factors. Twisting a bullet faster, without destroying it internally, promotes better stability. That is as long as the bullet is completely concentric. A non-concentric bullet will become less stable from the get go because it wants to revolve around the barrel axis instead of it's own axis.

Bullet shape:
Shorter fatter bullets do tend to remain more stable through the transonic range. The 168 CC and SMK are examples of bullets that get disrupted, but restabilize well after the transonic disruption. They do lose a certain amount of accuracy through the disruption, though. But, all bullets lose that to some degree.
Longer sleeker VLD/ULD type bullets lose the most stability going down through the transonic range. These are the ones that often-times become radically unstable(never recover after becoming unstable). The way to beat that with these is to step up the twist. But, then you have a whole new set of factors as the bullet leaves the barrel. If you go with the minimum twist that will stabilize any VLD/ULD type bullet they will be very accurate out to the point of instability. You just have to accept they don't always work past that. Add in other factors though and they may not become radically unstable. i.e. shooting VLD's in the high desert can be as accurate as far as you can see. Send a Berger 7mm 168 out in sub-zero from a 1-10" twist barrel and it will be unstable when it slows to the transonic range.
There are those bullets that tend to remain more stable by incorporating the best of both worlds. Long ogives, but with compound factors in them, i.e the Berger 175 Hybrid and 175 SMK. The 7mm 168 SMK doesn't have multiple ogive factors but it remains pretty stable from a 1-10" twisted barrel well past the trans-sonic range. Lapua Scenars are about the best example of a really good high BC, but still short enough and smooth enough that the transition through the transonic range doesn't affect them nearly as much.

The transonic range is important and does have an effect on bullets because the 'sonic-boom' aka 'snap' you hear, is a force that applies itself when it catches up to the bullet. It physically moves the bullet. Which when stable and flying along is disrupted. The disruption causes a yaw with the bullet. Two forces then counteract each other. The yaw of the bullet wants to make it move at a 90 degree angle to the point from which it touched the bullet. The air coming at the bullet wants to exacerbate (increase) that movement. The rotational spin (gyroscopic force) wants to make the bullet spin around it's original axis, and therefore settle back down. By increasing twist you provide more force at the end of the bullets journey to do that. So, the battle is between those forces. The bullet may not settle back down (radical) or take it's time, or go right back to where it was without hardly seeming affected. Each of the factors increases or decreases with each variable you change.
 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

But if we will increase the twist to be more stable on the end of bullet journey, we don't risk to have an overstable bullet?
 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GeKados</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But if we will increase the twist to be more stable on the end of bullet journey, we don't risk to have an overstable bullet?</div></div>

Yes, but that is the point I was making. Todays bullets are much better balanced than even the bullets of ten years ago. Overstabilization isn't near as much of a factor as it used to be. Unless, that is, you tear your bullet apart by spinning it way too fast.
 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

Thank you for the informations!
 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HillbillyfromAL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.300 whisper at 1,000yds did he use a mortar tube to launch it?</div></div>

I tend to agree, I'd rather find a bullet that will stabilize through the transonic range more than I would like to have a rainbow trajectory.
 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

This forum has a lot of dicks in it. While shooting a 300 Whisper at 1k may not be realistic, his basic premise is. If we quit taking things too literally then what he meant isn't so crazy although it was quite a hyperbole. Although velocity does change ballistics, it doesn't necessarily do the same to accuracy as long as one accounts for conditions.
 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tyler Kemp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This forum has a lot of dicks in it. While shooting a 300 Whisper at 1k may not be realistic, his basic premise is. If we quit taking things too literally then what he meant isn't so crazy although it was quite a hyperbole. Although velocity does change ballistics, it doesn't necessarily do the same to accuracy as long as one accounts for conditions.</div></div>

Not trying to be a dick about it. Shooting the .300 Whisper to 1k is possible and has been done. Obviously, the joy in it is that it can remain subsonic the whole way. Which gives two advantages: One is it doesn't go through the transonic range and is therefore not disrupted while in flight. The other is that it is capable then of being extremely silent all the way out. So, I don't think the comparison was totally useless. If both conditions are needed then it would/could be a great round for the job.

My issue with it though is with the huge trajectory it requires to get that far you magnify potential for long and short rounds. Although the smaller case does help in that arena. I would choose a flatter trajectory cartridge and bullet for the fact less trajectory in general means better accuracy. That is provided the bullet stabilizes through the transonic range. Two such bullets are the M1 Ball (173 gr.) which became the match bullet and the German 198 gr. spitzer used in WWII. The bullet was optimized to be used from the MG42 and then supported by the K98 at the same ranges while barrel and belt changes took place. They went to the 198 gr. over the previous 150 gr. spitzer specifically because they felt the 150 gr., WWI round, lacked extended range.

In today's world there are a number of bullets that perform similarly. The 220 SMK is one of them. How far it goes out until it radically unstabilizes, I don't know. I understand that was the choice because it re-stabilized quickly after going through the transonic range.
 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

shorter length boat tails = better transonic stability.
shallower angle boat tails = better transonic stability.

Reverse also holds true, ie. longer and steeper boattail projectiles = worse stability.

These are not the only influential factors, but they are some of the more dominant ones and I mentioned these specifically, as it is easy to measure and may be useful when comparing/deciding on 2 very similar class bullets when shooting accurately past transonic is your goal.
 
Re: Post Transonic-Sub MOA Accuracy

groper,

Thanks for posting. Those are definitely two characteristics of what causes instability through the transonic speeds. The .30 cal 168 SMK is worse than the 175 SMK in that regard. The 190 gr. SMK seems to be more like the 168. It goes great until 1k. Just after 1k it goes 'sideways'.

I do still believe that the ratio of ogive of the tangent vs the secant ogive plays a part too. But, bottom line is with that is how well is the bullet stabilized with the given twist.