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Powder for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading questions

F

fracmeister

Private
Minuteman
Nov 15, 2005
39
0
Texas
www.troop1960.com
1. I have (stupid idea here). Any recommended laods for the 408 with it? I am shooting 420 grain Rocky Mtn bullets, both hunting and target. The only other powders I have handy are for 308 and 260 (IMR 4064) H414 and Win 748....assume no loads for those...

2. I have the ammomaster-2 .....which shellholder should I use? I have dies? prefer RCBS I guess since it is the ammomaster.

THANKS
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading questions

No its not a good powder for the 408. 7828 might even be to fast for it. You need to get a powder that is slower then rl-25. Like ar2225 or retumbo, h870, n170, 50 bmg or us869.
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading questions

For the sake of other readers, you need the .505 Gibbs shell holder to load .408 Cheytac
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading quest

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dogtown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For the sake of other readers, you need the .505 Gibbs shell holder to load .408 Cheytac </div></div>

Correct RCBS now calls it the #47.
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NotAGuru</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No its not a good powder for the 408. 7828 might even be to fast for it. You need to get a powder that is slower then rl-25. Like ar2225 or retumbo, h870, n170, 50 bmg or us869. </div></div>

Thanks....do you have recommended loads for those powders??
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading questions

no offense, but i cant believe someone who owns a .408 cheytac is asking about using 4198 in it. INSANE!

chuck
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: selfbowhunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">no offense, but i cant believe someone who owns a .408 cheytac is asking about using 4198 in it. INSANE!

chuck </div></div>

I am pretty much insane I can spot that. no offfense taken. but what you have is my powder inventory... (now that I think of it I am not even sure what I used 4198 for!)

Anyway I have some suggestions for powders and I'll go try and buy one or more if I can just get some recommended loads.

That would be more useful than commenting on my well known lack of mental health
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading questions

125.5 grains of RL-25 seems to be the basic recipe for the 408ct.
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading questions

imr 4198 is a VERY FAST burning powder. in the old days it was the powder of choice for the 222. it works in a 223, some straight wall cases, and a few other applications, but its on the other end of the powder spectrum from where you need to be.

chuck
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading questions

I have a M-96 windrunner in .338 and .408 this is what was recomended to me to develop loads.

Reloader 25 powder
Federal 215 primers
420 Gn. R.M. Bullets or .419 Gn. CNC solids

Start at 120 Gns. Increase .5 to 1 Gn at a time until you find the sweet spot for your rifle, every one is different.
The max. working pressure is somewhere around 128.5 Gn. <span style="font-weight: bold"> </span> <span style="text-decoration: underline">WATCH FOR PRESSURE SIGNS </span><span style="text-decoration: underline"> </span>

Some people have been as high as <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">131 Gns</span>.</span> but I don't care to go there.

Stay .060 off the rifling to start when you decide on the powder charge you want you can fine tune it by decreasing the the seating depth. But I would not go below .025 off rifling. Get an OGIVE guage to measure the seating depth of your load.

If you move to CNC solids start over again.
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading questions

Thanks for all the help. Turns out I now actually know why I have 4198 and it is irrelevant. I am looking for the RL-25 and am going to test all the given procedures....

Curious, how short a range do you think I can use for load development. It is way easier to get to a 200 yd range if I am just trying to shoot a lot of rounds to test for optimum grains and so forth, but is that so close that I couldnt realistically see the "sweet spot" --- 600 yd range and 1000 yd ranges are a much bigger effort, but I will do what I need to.
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading questions

If your testing range is 20 yards, I suggest trying Blue Dot. It's quite a bit slower than Bullseye.
You are shitting us, right?
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading questions


Hi lrplinker,

With your posts i had to check that it is not April the 1st,

you wanting to blast through lots of loads to find the best?
I would look for retumbo as it is a lot more stable in all temperature enviroments.

Also for going through heaps of rounds of ammo to test, you will just fry the barrel.

Follow the loads stated by others here and work up slowly. to test for pressure you could start by going up 1 gr at a time until pressure starts to show. Then you can fine tune the load. Also when loading these test loads use them to run the barrel in.

Onve the barrel is run in dont even think of shooting it closer that 300 yards you are just wasting time, money and ammo,

The thing about more effort to get to a long range shooting range if you only want to shoot 20 yards use a 22.

i also doubt it that anyone would let you shoot a 375 chey tac on their range anyway.

So get your components together and start to load up your test loads and work them up and use the loads to get clost to your correct pressures to fireform the rifle so you dont waste components and make sure to run the barrel in correctly because on an investment like a Chey Tac make sure you have great rifle for a long time.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lrplinker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for all the help. Turns out I now actually know why I have 4198 and it is irrelevant. I am looking for the RL-25 and am going to test all the given procedures....

Curious, how short a range do you think I can use for load development. It is way easier to get to a 20 yd range if I am just trying to shoot a lot of rounds to test for optimum grains and so forth, but is that so close that I couldnt realistically see the "sweet spot" --- 600 yd range and 1000 yd ranges are a much bigger effort, but I will do what I need to. </div></div>
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading questions

20 Yds is a <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">total waste </span></span>of rounds and won't help in load development.

Also at that range you better have a Damn heavy duty back stop!!!!!!

If it is a controled range check with them before you go, the muzzle blast will definately P.O. anyone within 30 feet on either side of you. Some ranges do not allow this caliber or larger.

The.408 is a 2000 Yd.+ weapon. and can carry well over 3000 yds. I plan to be using mine between 1800 and 2500 yds.

The scope will determine where to set your base zero.

I am using a Horus vision falcon w/a H-37 reticle they recomend a base zero at 100 yds., when solid at that point I will crank on enough set my zero between 600 to 1000 yds. Then you just run the reticle.

Another proven scope is the nightforce NXS 5.5-22x56 W/NP-R2 or NP-R1 reticle and a 30mm main tube.

check with your scope mfg for zero recomendations. You might also check with "NotAGuru" he is heavy into .408 and a very helpful person.

Not trying to offend but is this your first run at ELR shooting?

Get in touch with C&H TOOL and DIE (CH4D) for a shell holder, dies etc.

Reloader 25 is the factory loaded powder (Chey Tac)
Don't use anything less than Federal 215 primers, I learned the hard way with a hang fire then a dud.
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lrplinker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for all the help. Turns out I now actually know why I have 4198 and it is irrelevant. I am looking for the RL-25 and am going to test all the given procedures....

Curious, how short a range do you think I can use for load development. It is way easier to get to a 20 yd range if I am just trying to shoot a lot of rounds to test for optimum grains and so forth, but is that so close that I couldnt realistically see the "sweet spot" --- 600 yd range and 1000 yd ranges are a much bigger effort, but I will do what I need to. </div></div>

My heart goes out to you, friend. As a former owner and shooter of a .408 CheyTac, I can attest as to not fully realizing what owning and shooting a .408 really means.

Here are two pictures of a very thick and heavy 8" target. This target was made to withstand constant punishment of magnums from .338 Lapua Magnum on down. This plate was shot at 200 yards.


408-CHEYTAC-Target-1-900x945.jpg


408-CHEYTAC-Target-2-900x796.jpg



The large "gold" impacts are from 408 cheytac solids made by Lost River Ballistic Technologies (now out of business). These solids were in the range of 400 grains each. At 200 yards, I can only guess their velocity since they were Cheytac factory ammo.

The "smaller" silver colored (lead) impacts were from our local crazy South African's (every community should have at least one!) safari rifle. I can't remember the exact caliber but it was somewhere between a 350 grain to 400 grain "dangerous game" projectile. 375 H&H magnum? 404 Jefferies? Something huge and typically African but I can't remember exactly what.

Ok, so both the Dangerous Game (DG) projectile and the 408 Cheytac made big splatter marks.

But notice how <span style="font-weight: bold">DEEP</span> the 408 craters are. What the DG could dig out with multiple shots was <span style="font-weight: bold">NOTHING</span> compared to a single strike from a 408.

The true kicker is that the 408 didn't break the target, it broke the heavy chains welded between the target and the target stand! The target was so heavy that the DG hits made it swing noticeablely.

However, the 408 hits cause the target to jump so violently that after one 408 "half hit" (bottom of target) and 4 direct 408 hits, the chains snapped!

Moral of the story, you're shooting a 2500 meter rifle. At 200 yards, I couldn't even get it properly sighted in. You really need to find <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">at least</span></span> a 600 yard or great range to do your zeroing and load development.


If you feel the need to verify my story, call the Renton Fish & Game Club in Renton, Washington and ask for the rifle rangemaster. Him, as well as the crazy South African plus a host of other characters can verify what happened.
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading questions

OOPS. 200 yds not 20. But I think the point ranger1183 makes is that doesnt even matter. I need to make my trek to the 600 or even 1000 yd range just to zero it and get the load development working.

I am fine with that. I have found a 1000 yd range within 80 miles and I am figuring a couple long days I should have the load I want and a chance to improve at 1000. Then it is off to the one mile range (not exactly a range, but safe and accessible.)

Thanks for the advice.
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1000 YDS. IS FUN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">20 Yds is a <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">total waste </span></span>of rounds and won't help in load development.

Also at that range you better have a Damn heavy duty back stop!!!!!!

If it is a controled range check with them before you go, the muzzle blast will definately P.O. anyone within 30 feet on either side of you. Some ranges do not allow this caliber or larger.

The.408 is a 2000 Yd.+ weapon. and can carry well over 3000 yds. I plan to be using mine between 1800 and 2500 yds.

The scope will determine where to set your base zero.

I am using a Horus vision falcon w/a H-37 reticle they recomend a base zero at 100 yds., when solid at that point I will crank on enough set my zero between 600 to 1000 yds. Then you just run the reticle.

Another proven scope is the nightforce NXS 5.5-22x56 W/NP-R2 or NP-R1 reticle and a 30mm main tube.

check with your scope mfg for zero recomendations. You might also check with "NotAGuru" he is heavy into .408 and a very helpful person.

Not trying to offend but is this your first run at ELR shooting?

Get in touch with C&H TOOL and DIE (CH4D) for a shell holder, dies etc.

Reloader 25 is the factory loaded powder (Chey Tac)
Don't use anything less than Federal 215 primers, I learned the hard way with a hang fire then a dud. </div></div>


okay...I meant 200 not 20.... my bad. Good advice, so I will work the loads. Yep, it is my first try at ELR. I have .260 and .308 GAP guns that I have gotten to be pretty good with to 600 and decent at 1000 but I hardly ever get to that distance.

Appreciate the help and I will certainly re-check posts for numbers in the future
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading questions

I usually dont do load development out side of 400-500 yards. Once you got your load done there then thats the time to go shoot it at long ranges. There is to many variables outside of 600 yards to tell how well you are doing unless you have absolute perfect conditions. Remember unless you drive down to where your shooting or have someone spotting you never know if they change. Good luck with your new rifle.
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading questions

I would let him shoot on my range with the chey -tac, it may take him a while to figure out 3200yds. LOL
It don't matter what you shoot or how far you shoot it you just need to enjoy shooting it.
GOD bless,
Mac's
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading questions

I agree with Bobby.

It seems people are being a little hard on this guy. I recognize the fact that some of his statements indicate inexperience but I would think this forum is here to provide good sound advice, not to prove what an expert you are by ridiculing someone asking honest questions. Holding novices up for ridicule to boost your ego isn't exactly the recipe for growing a sport.

The idea of developing loads at 1,000 yards has 2 major flaws. One is the amount of time consumed to check/change targets. The other is that the point is to find out how the load is performing, not what external forces you failed to calculate downrange.

I am sure some of the "experts" on this site will write nasty e-mails in response to this, but there is nothing wrong with sighting this rifle in at 200 to 400 yards. The truest picture of how the load is grouping will be where external forces are minimized, which ain't 2,500 yards. Get 3/4" groups at 200 yards and mathematically you will have 3.75" groups at 1,000 yards. Gee, I don't see a whole lot of those targets being posted by people, and the powder and primer stopped having an effect way before the bullet ever got there.

The load that performs best at 200 yards that approaches maximum velocity will probably be the load that performs best at 2,000 yards.

Maybe not the bullet, but the load. After perfecting some loads with different projectiles, do some downrange testing in some stable conditions to compare bullet performance.

I am using Retumbo in my .375 CT Improved and have a reduced load of 132 gr that is grouping well and good results from charges of 144 gr of Retumbo, both with 350 SMK bullets. The latter load IS NOT to be used in a stock 375 CT. Can't help you on the .408 loads but this info should help this fellow get some order of magnitude of what he is shooting.

Good luck to him and he should keep on asking questions. I think I heard once that there are no dumb questions. I guess they didn't read some of these responses before they said that.
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading quest

Shooting at 200 is not really far enough to do testing of loads that are going to be shot at long distances. The idea is to give the bullet time to get to its stabilized form as it continues to "rev up". 400 seems to be a great distance for me to get longer range testing done.
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading questions

It seems like some rifles are fine with load dev done at 100-200 yards but I've also seen rifles that are all over the place at that distance, but start to converge at 400-600. It's like voodoo sometimes, I swear.
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading questions

Bruce Baer says that if you can't shoot one inch groups at 500 you not going to be compeditive at 1000. (refering to 1000 yard bench rest). A little different that ELR but interesting.
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading questions

I can buy using 400 as a good compromise. I can certainly see that there could be stabilization issues that might come into play. Things like spin rate relative to velocity are certainly going to change as it gets downrange.

The point was that if it shoots like complete crap at 200 yards it isn't going magically become pinpoint accurate at 1,500 and you have to start somewhere. I just think starting at 1500 yards has a lot of downside for several reasons.
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading quest

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: .375Mojave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The point was that if it shoots like complete crap at 200 yards it isn't going magically become pinpoint accurate at 1,500 and you have to start somewhere. I just think starting at 1500 yards has a lot of downside for several reasons.

</div></div>

It all depends on stability factors involved. I have seen these cheytacs shoot great at 400 and 6" at 200...

Yes it does you no good to shoot past 600 yards unless in ideal conditions for load devlopment.
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading quest

In working my 375 Cheytac with Bobbys notes i am shooting the Rocky Mountain 370 grainers with B.C. of .948 with 133 grains of Retumbo with the bullet just off the lands at 3100fps and shooting in the 4" area at 800 yards. Will be working on the 1400 yard mark next with this load. THIS SHIT IS FUN !
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading quest

I haven't set up my chrono yet so I am not sure what they are clocking but I have boosted the Rocky's up to 136 grains of Retumbo with no signs of pressure.

I am waiting on dies so my bullet seating process is not very precise. I am really anxious to stretch this thing out. I am stuck just running some rounds through to fire form and break in the barrel and check for pressure right now.

I had good results over the weekend with 144 gr of Retumbo behind some 350 SMK's and with some careful rigging managed to seat them at .020 off the lands with good grouping. I am guessing I am north of 3250 fps with this load.

I agree, a guy can enjoy a lot of hours tinkering with these guns.
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading questions

I agree with Notaguru and Dogtown,

I tried load development at 200 yards with 375CT and Lehigh 330's.It was a waste of projos for me.Took me a while to figure out that they weren't quite stabilized yet.I was shooting 2.5" groups at 200 yards and then went to try at 400 yards and shot 2.5" inch groups.Later with a little more load developement,I shot a couple 4 shot groups at 1000 yards that were 4-5 "s.

Steve
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading questions

Sure up there Mohave, I have very precise loads at 141 grains of Retumbo with the SMK's. I only use Retumbo now with with my 375/408.
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading questions

My loads will likely be north of where the stock cartridge are due to it being an "improved" version.

I did quite a bit of research and against all (sound) advice from NotaGuru, I decided to wildcat the round. (By the way, Bobby was probably right since this thing will hold more powder than anyone in his right mind would want to put into it)I spent some time talking with Kirby Allen (338 Allen Magnum, etc) and he gave me his very valuable input on how to avoid some of the mistakes he has made in his extensive experimentation.

The case holds about 10 grains more than a stock case which, in theory, should enable me to push the velocities up. No gaurantee they will shoot worth crap but I can make them go faster.

So far it seems to be working out OK and Lawton did a great job on the barreled action. I have yet to work my way up to it, but I imagine I will get up to 146+ gr of Retumbo behind 350 SMK's and get them well past 3,250. I may back off that for the sake of barrel life, and maybe accuracy, but I will be happy to have an accurate load at 3,200 with the 350 SMK's and hope to push the 370 gr Rocky Mtn's into the 3,150 zone accurately as well.

Good luck with your rifle and keep me posted on your load development. I am always interested in load data for these rounds.
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading questions

For what it is worth on load development I would try and find land over which you can shoot safely and have some leeway about direction so that you can face into the wind or have it at your back...in none fishtail conditions... so that you can test at greater distances without the wind impacting. Most ranges, certainly here in the UK and the top ranges I have shot Worldwide are designed to be challenging and have noteable cross wind "usual" conditions.

Remeber that testing at closer distances lends you to accept a lower powder load as "the best" as lower velocities stabilise better at shorter ranges...allowing for good optics so that you don't have to keep going back and forth to check group (although in certain "States" mirage might be a problem)...I would agree with those who say 400 to 600 yards...and my Leica spotting scope can make out the bullet holes quite well at these distances with my .375. Ideally 600 yards seems best for me as my 400 yard results favoured the lower velocity bands but at 600 yards the slightly higher velocities came in just as well.

Incidentally, whilst no one has mentioned it yet...do not try and load develop these rifles off a bench...not unless they are in rigs weighted and with stocks and rests designed for this...always test prone.

On your seating depth, if off the lands gives the flatest group go with this rather than deeper...even if the group is slightly smaller, it is "vertical" climbing which you need to eradicate...horizontal speading is much easier to work with, especially at ELR, doping the wind is hard enough but going over the top or under the target when you have done a great "windcall" is "hearbreaking".

Lastly, on cleaning, don't over clean the barrel and then attempt "load development"...so you need to "break in" the barrel before sorting out the load...a bore scope pays dividends on keeping the barrel "right"...carbon fouling needs removing but not the hard spots of copper...leave them if they don't want to budge with normal cleaning...otherwise each time you shoot you are having to bed in the barrel all over again...and you will get nailed on "vertical" fliers.

Good luck!
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading questions

These all seem very reasonable suggestions and I can agree. I think you make a good point about a load that is slower, albeit pinpoint accurate, at short ranges might be bested by a faster load with a slight MOA disadvantage at close ranges. The real world of conditions affects a faster bullet less, so I can see the logic there as well.

I am not even going to touch the subject of how much cleaning is enough/too much. They beat that horse to death a long time ago on this site.

Suffice it to say that I am beggining to agree that there is a difference between "cold bore" and "clean bore" shots. A clean, oiled, bore has had a consistently (although not radically) different POI in my gun than a bore that is neither oiled or cleaned while I am seeing little or no impact due to heat. In the end I think every rifle is different. I think there is no doubt that a light sporter barrel that is full-contact bedded may well string from heat, but I have to believe my 10lb free floated barrel is affected very little, maybe not at all.

Good info.
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading questions



"The idea is to give the bullet time to get to its stabilized form as it continues to rev up."

Am I interpreting this correctly to say that as the bullet goes down-range that the velocity and spin-rate INCREASE?

tom
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading questions

In a gain twist I guess I can see the possibility, but once a 1:10 spin is imparted that seems like the end of the story.

After that it seems like the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics takes over.

I can definitely see a bullet continuing to stabilize as it goes downrange though.
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading quest

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tspearsrph</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

"The idea is to give the bullet time to get to its stabilized form as it continues to rev up."

Am I interpreting this correctly to say that as the bullet goes down-range that the velocity and spin-rate INCREASE?

tom </div></div>

Am I suppose to interpret this as a question?
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading quest

Well the stuff i was reading was wrong. I just had some things cleared up to me. I would like to restate this little problem. What i should have said is as the bullet continues or begins to acheive static stability. When its first launched its not in a completely stable form and after traveling for a while it will achieve more stability.
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading quest

I agree with you 100%.

The initial instability/downrange stability thing makes perfect sense. It is also a supporting arguement for sighting in at something more than 100 yards as previously discussed.
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading quest

Not a Guru can you post something with more pictures for those of us that arnt to good at siffering or spelling...
 
Re: IMR 4198 for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading quest

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GLOWWORM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not a Guru can you post something with more pictures for those of us that arnt to good at siffering or spelling... </div></div>

Let me go get my crayons......
grin.gif
 
Re: Question for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading quest

OK, now that I have loaded up those 125.5 grain Reloader 25s and (I presume correctly) used magnum primers, I am running into a problem. Those ranges around Houston with 200 yard ranges won't let me use this baby (just to get the scope roughly right and do a little break in).....in fact, I understand that the only 1000 yd range in the area (Bayou Rifles) won't allow the .408 round (although this seemed to take several peope to reach this conclusion and I wouldn't say it was a convincing answer).

I am tempted to make the trek to RO in Kingsville but surely theree is someone who knows a spot closer to Chateau lrplinker in NW Houston where I can at least get something out the barrel! Please advise.
 
Re: Question for 408 CHEYTAC? Also reloading quest

Wow, who would have thought that CA had less restrictive ranges than TX
wink.gif
 
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