About to start on a 243W, scout rifle with either an 18.5, or, 20 inch barrel. I want to run a 90gr and keep my MV as reliably high as possible... somewhere around 3,100 in an 18.5 or 3,150-200 in a 20. I saw some reloading data on an 18.5 inch 308, shooting 165's at 2710 and he wasn't close to max. He was using RL-15. Does it do better in shorter barrels?
- Thread starter cutnhrse
- Start date
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
Look at H4350, IMR4350, RL15 and RL17. I reloaded some 85 grainers for a buddy with a 20" and used IMR4350. 3200 in a 20 incher with 90's might be do-able. I've never pushed mine (26" barrel) to that extent. Right now, I'm pushing 95 SMK around 2960 and 1.5 grains below book max. I stuck around the speed because of the accuracy. I shot a few at max and could have went a lil faster (load was around 3000). I would stay with at least a 20". I really don't think a 18.5" barrel would burn enough powder and produce a decent muzzle blast.
Look at H4350, IMR4350, RL15 and RL17. I reloaded some 85 grainers for a buddy with a 20" and used IMR4350. 3200 in a 20 incher with 90's might be do-able. I've never pushed mine (26" barrel) to that extent. Right now, I'm pushing 95 SMK around 2960 and 1.5 grains below book max. I stuck around the speed because of the accuracy. I shot a few at max and could have went a lil faster (load was around 3000). I would stay with at least a 20". I really don't think a 18.5" barrel would burn enough powder and produce a decent muzzle blast.
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
Thanks! H4350 seems like too much powder down a short, narrow pipe from the data I read. Seems like at max psi it would cut it self off too quick in 22 inch barrels. 20 sounds like a good length and I have read of superb accuracy from that length of cigar. I'll be using a Pac 6 poly/moly tube. Not the most superior in accuracy compared to a Broughton. But, they are very accurate and they give more generated mv, especially in shorter barrels and they last longer with the tight pipes. I have some guys that load this crap for me, but things change and people go away and I'd better now how to load my own incase it takes me some time to find another loader.
I'll also be running two rounds of equal length. 90gr Lapuas for match and 90gr Scirrocco 2's for hunting. I figure the Laps will have a little higher natural mv even though both will be loaded to same spec. Hell, may try RL17 and 414 too, never hurts.
Thanks! H4350 seems like too much powder down a short, narrow pipe from the data I read. Seems like at max psi it would cut it self off too quick in 22 inch barrels. 20 sounds like a good length and I have read of superb accuracy from that length of cigar. I'll be using a Pac 6 poly/moly tube. Not the most superior in accuracy compared to a Broughton. But, they are very accurate and they give more generated mv, especially in shorter barrels and they last longer with the tight pipes. I have some guys that load this crap for me, but things change and people go away and I'd better now how to load my own incase it takes me some time to find another loader.
I'll also be running two rounds of equal length. 90gr Lapuas for match and 90gr Scirrocco 2's for hunting. I figure the Laps will have a little higher natural mv even though both will be loaded to same spec. Hell, may try RL17 and 414 too, never hurts.
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
Barrel length doesn't change what powder you use.
Barrel length doesn't change what powder you use.
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
Seriously why would it?
Seriously why would it?
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jerkface11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barrel length doesn't change what powder you use.</div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jerkface11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seriously why would it? </div></div>
How Experienced a Reloader are you ?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jerkface11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barrel length doesn't change what powder you use.</div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jerkface11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seriously why would it? </div></div>
How Experienced a Reloader are you ?
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
No really a powder that gives higher velocities with a long barrel will do the same with a short barrel. Cutting a barrel down might change what powders are more accurate but a powder that didn't give good velocities out of a long barrel won't start performing just because you cut it down.
No really a powder that gives higher velocities with a long barrel will do the same with a short barrel. Cutting a barrel down might change what powders are more accurate but a powder that didn't give good velocities out of a long barrel won't start performing just because you cut it down.
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
Every different powder has different mechanics. Thats why there are so many. They all have different shapes and sizes to them that causes them to react differently. There also so many different powders with different chemical make ups (ie. proprietary powders). This gives them all different max flash and peak burn excelleration points in a barrel. Some may reach it at 16 inches in a 20 inch barrel. Some at 20 in a 26 inch. This is why you can actually lose MV in a barrel too long or too short given the wrong powder. The even harder science of it is figuring out what powder burns best in a particular barrel length, with a particular grain weight bullet, with a particular inner diameter of tube. If it were any easier I wouldn't be here asking and powder companies wouldn't make so many different powders. Nor would there be proprietary low pressure, high velocity rounds from these custom ammo companies(again with proprietary powders). Granted, powder companies try to keep it as simple as possible. I'm just trying to get close without having the HUGE headache of experimenting for a month.
Every different powder has different mechanics. Thats why there are so many. They all have different shapes and sizes to them that causes them to react differently. There also so many different powders with different chemical make ups (ie. proprietary powders). This gives them all different max flash and peak burn excelleration points in a barrel. Some may reach it at 16 inches in a 20 inch barrel. Some at 20 in a 26 inch. This is why you can actually lose MV in a barrel too long or too short given the wrong powder. The even harder science of it is figuring out what powder burns best in a particular barrel length, with a particular grain weight bullet, with a particular inner diameter of tube. If it were any easier I wouldn't be here asking and powder companies wouldn't make so many different powders. Nor would there be proprietary low pressure, high velocity rounds from these custom ammo companies(again with proprietary powders). Granted, powder companies try to keep it as simple as possible. I'm just trying to get close without having the HUGE headache of experimenting for a month.
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
Correct, if you ain't shoving a bullet, it's slowing down. If the burn rate is slow enough, the powder will burn outside the barrel and cause a nice muzzle blast. It might even disturb accuracy, I don't know for sure. I heard a story at the range about Lapua bullets. They said they checked them for bearing length and other variables and there was a good deal of variance. Again, I haven't messed with them. I stick with Sierra 95 Matchkings because my twist is 9.125" and it stabilizes them. Which twist rate are you looking at?
Correct, if you ain't shoving a bullet, it's slowing down. If the burn rate is slow enough, the powder will burn outside the barrel and cause a nice muzzle blast. It might even disturb accuracy, I don't know for sure. I heard a story at the range about Lapua bullets. They said they checked them for bearing length and other variables and there was a good deal of variance. Again, I haven't messed with them. I stick with Sierra 95 Matchkings because my twist is 9.125" and it stabilizes them. Which twist rate are you looking at?
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
243 is an awsome do it all round. Ecxellent brass is cheap, no loading issues with necks and the like, flawless feeding from DBM's, you can keep good velocity in shorter barrels and it has really low spreads-very consistant. 6ppc was another choice, but the DBM thing and the brass thing kinda put the kybosh on it. I wanted a tough do all gun on a budget and 243 was the best choice.
In a 6P barrel I'll be going with a 1/9 twist.
243 is an awsome do it all round. Ecxellent brass is cheap, no loading issues with necks and the like, flawless feeding from DBM's, you can keep good velocity in shorter barrels and it has really low spreads-very consistant. 6ppc was another choice, but the DBM thing and the brass thing kinda put the kybosh on it. I wanted a tough do all gun on a budget and 243 was the best choice.
In a 6P barrel I'll be going with a 1/9 twist.
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
Definately give a look to the 95 SMK's! I'm pushing them with RL22 but again in a 26" tube. Lapua brass is nice, but the price is climbing. It rose $15 in 3 months. I think the .243 is a sweet little round. How far are you planning on shooting?
Definately give a look to the 95 SMK's! I'm pushing them with RL22 but again in a 26" tube. Lapua brass is nice, but the price is climbing. It rose $15 in 3 months. I think the .243 is a sweet little round. How far are you planning on shooting?
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
8-900m at max, probably 6-700m max in reality. The reason I'm keeping it at 90gr is beacuase I can switch from a Lapua to a Scirrocco 2 without re-sighting. The guys that load my ammo can get them to the same length with very little difference in MV. Untill I start getting them waaay out there, I won't be able to tell a difference. I'll sight in with the Lapua match rounds and use the SC2's for hunting. The difference with the hunting loads won't be enough to worry abt because, well, they're for hunting. Then when I switch to the Lapua's I'll be sending'em downtown. And in the case of hunting, great is good enough. I mean, I'll be using a 2nd fp Ziess. So, like I said, "do all". This is going to be a pack rifle, sooo....
8-900m at max, probably 6-700m max in reality. The reason I'm keeping it at 90gr is beacuase I can switch from a Lapua to a Scirrocco 2 without re-sighting. The guys that load my ammo can get them to the same length with very little difference in MV. Untill I start getting them waaay out there, I won't be able to tell a difference. I'll sight in with the Lapua match rounds and use the SC2's for hunting. The difference with the hunting loads won't be enough to worry abt because, well, they're for hunting. Then when I switch to the Lapua's I'll be sending'em downtown. And in the case of hunting, great is good enough. I mean, I'll be using a 2nd fp Ziess. So, like I said, "do all". This is going to be a pack rifle, sooo....
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
cutnhrse, I'm sending a PM.
I have an 18" 243 and I can tell you what my experience has been.
cutnhrse, I'm sending a PM.
I have an 18" 243 and I can tell you what my experience has been.
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
Yeah, the POI shouldn't change very much. I heard of a few people practicing with Sierra 85 HPBT and hungting with Barnes 85 TSX with no change in POI.
Yeah, the POI shouldn't change very much. I heard of a few people practicing with Sierra 85 HPBT and hungting with Barnes 85 TSX with no change in POI.
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
As for brass, I'm sending my loaders Winchester for hunting loads and Norma for my matches/long-er distance rounds. Winchester is good brass new and cheap, Norma is better and I found a hook-up on it cheap. Lapua is best, but it has gone up quite a bit. The're getting proud of it.
I think I might be able to handle my own loads if I need to. What I do is buy brass and bullets and take it to my loaders. I have spken with them and they said they can get me just what I want. the problem is, well, me being able to duplicate, or, get them close. They know how to do it and they aint gonna tell me how, thats fo dammmm sho!
As for brass, I'm sending my loaders Winchester for hunting loads and Norma for my matches/long-er distance rounds. Winchester is good brass new and cheap, Norma is better and I found a hook-up on it cheap. Lapua is best, but it has gone up quite a bit. The're getting proud of it.
I think I might be able to handle my own loads if I need to. What I do is buy brass and bullets and take it to my loaders. I have spken with them and they said they can get me just what I want. the problem is, well, me being able to duplicate, or, get them close. They know how to do it and they aint gonna tell me how, thats fo dammmm sho!
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
I would think you will get a change in POI using different brass and bullet combo. I tested some loads with Remington, Hornady and Lapua brass. I worked each load up to the same powder charge to check safety. They each had a different POI using the same bullet, powder and primer. Lapua shot 2" to the right at 100. Hornady shot 1.5" low at 100. Personally, I would just use Norma for hunting too if it was a bolt gun. You can hang onto your brass after the shot. Since you can get it cheap, who cares if you loose a piece or two. You could even use the Norma brass that's significantly out of variance to hunt with after weight sorting. Ask them what powder they're using. That would be the main component for you to duplicate it. I would really look into reloading for yourself. You can control everything. They may even help ya out with some gear or teaching you.
I would think you will get a change in POI using different brass and bullet combo. I tested some loads with Remington, Hornady and Lapua brass. I worked each load up to the same powder charge to check safety. They each had a different POI using the same bullet, powder and primer. Lapua shot 2" to the right at 100. Hornady shot 1.5" low at 100. Personally, I would just use Norma for hunting too if it was a bolt gun. You can hang onto your brass after the shot. Since you can get it cheap, who cares if you loose a piece or two. You could even use the Norma brass that's significantly out of variance to hunt with after weight sorting. Ask them what powder they're using. That would be the main component for you to duplicate it. I would really look into reloading for yourself. You can control everything. They may even help ya out with some gear or teaching you.
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
The reason for POI change was Win, Lap and Hornady necks are a tiny bit thicker, or thinner. You have to form to same spec. I will probably just use Norma, been a head debate with me.
they won't tell me. These loaders have thier formula down to an almost exact science and they don't share. Thats how they make $$. Thats what makes them good at what they do.
Kinda like cars and fuel... They don't build the custom rifles, just the ammo that runs through'em.
The reason for POI change was Win, Lap and Hornady necks are a tiny bit thicker, or thinner. You have to form to same spec. I will probably just use Norma, been a head debate with me.
they won't tell me. These loaders have thier formula down to an almost exact science and they don't share. Thats how they make $$. Thats what makes them good at what they do.
Kinda like cars and fuel... They don't build the custom rifles, just the ammo that runs through'em.
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
Are they blending and mixing powders?
Are they blending and mixing powders?
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
I'm guessing so. Most of'em do.
I don't doubt that I could, for the most part duplicate. The biggest reason I use those guys is because of spec uniformity(and the time it takes to do so) and ES/consistancy. I don't think I'be able to get it as close as they do. Have a 300WSM with a 22" tube. Use Berger 185 BT/LR non VLD. Have it set at 3,205 avg with an ES of only 6fps out of 2x20 round boxes. Shocking...
I'm guessing so. Most of'em do.
I don't doubt that I could, for the most part duplicate. The biggest reason I use those guys is because of spec uniformity(and the time it takes to do so) and ES/consistancy. I don't think I'be able to get it as close as they do. Have a 300WSM with a 22" tube. Use Berger 185 BT/LR non VLD. Have it set at 3,205 avg with an ES of only 6fps out of 2x20 round boxes. Shocking...
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jerkface11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barrel length doesn't change what powder you use. </div></div>
John Barsness did a study comparing powders in differing barrel lengths. He found loads for particular bullet using multiple powders, then had the barrel cut down in subsequent lengths and reshot. He noticed that powders that were fastest with the long barrels were also fastest with the short barrels.
His conclusions were that the powder that was fastest in the longer barrels will still be the fastest in the shorter barrels. His data/experience supports it too.
You can argue muzzle blast and other reasons for a particular powder based on barrel length, but velocity reasons for particular powders do not hold water per his study.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jerkface11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barrel length doesn't change what powder you use. </div></div>
John Barsness did a study comparing powders in differing barrel lengths. He found loads for particular bullet using multiple powders, then had the barrel cut down in subsequent lengths and reshot. He noticed that powders that were fastest with the long barrels were also fastest with the short barrels.
His conclusions were that the powder that was fastest in the longer barrels will still be the fastest in the shorter barrels. His data/experience supports it too.
You can argue muzzle blast and other reasons for a particular powder based on barrel length, but velocity reasons for particular powders do not hold water per his study.
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
That depends on what caliber he used and what gr wieght he used and if he stayed with the same caliber/gr through the testing. If it was that easy there would only be one powder based on each casing. It just aint that simple. Nor would there be a pistol powders that have a really fast flash point and exclleration burn point.
This is a good example. When I was a bit younger I had a H&R handi rifle in 357 mag with a 22 inch barrel. I had a friend of mine who was a gunsmith fresh outta Murray State. He helped me find a load I liked on a chronograph. It shot fine, but being a 20 year old I wanted my handi rifle even handier. So, he cut the barrel back to 18.5 and when we chronied again, much to my surprise I had gained about 14fps.
It is a tit-for-tat science and for everything you change, you have to change something else. Barrel length, bullet wieght, bullet length, ect, ect. Thats why there are so many powders available. But, one would have to take note that this is ever evolving and has boomed only in recent years.
Now, that is a loose example. It hardly ever happens in normal rifles, unless you completely mess up and use some crummy stuff, or, your barrel is extremely long. Will a fast burning powder in a short barrel be even faster in a longer barrel? Yes, but a slow-er, more effeciant burning powder will go even faster than that in a longer barrel. However to say that slower burning powders have no effect on a shorter length barrel is a moot point. They do for a fact. As someone else stated, you can't burn all of it off and it sends alot of it out of the muzzle. Why? Because it burns slower. Not to mention some of the slower burning powders can play a part in throat errosion on small, high speed calibers. It is hard on'em to cram that much hot powder down a small hole.
That depends on what caliber he used and what gr wieght he used and if he stayed with the same caliber/gr through the testing. If it was that easy there would only be one powder based on each casing. It just aint that simple. Nor would there be a pistol powders that have a really fast flash point and exclleration burn point.
This is a good example. When I was a bit younger I had a H&R handi rifle in 357 mag with a 22 inch barrel. I had a friend of mine who was a gunsmith fresh outta Murray State. He helped me find a load I liked on a chronograph. It shot fine, but being a 20 year old I wanted my handi rifle even handier. So, he cut the barrel back to 18.5 and when we chronied again, much to my surprise I had gained about 14fps.
It is a tit-for-tat science and for everything you change, you have to change something else. Barrel length, bullet wieght, bullet length, ect, ect. Thats why there are so many powders available. But, one would have to take note that this is ever evolving and has boomed only in recent years.
Now, that is a loose example. It hardly ever happens in normal rifles, unless you completely mess up and use some crummy stuff, or, your barrel is extremely long. Will a fast burning powder in a short barrel be even faster in a longer barrel? Yes, but a slow-er, more effeciant burning powder will go even faster than that in a longer barrel. However to say that slower burning powders have no effect on a shorter length barrel is a moot point. They do for a fact. As someone else stated, you can't burn all of it off and it sends alot of it out of the muzzle. Why? Because it burns slower. Not to mention some of the slower burning powders can play a part in throat errosion on small, high speed calibers. It is hard on'em to cram that much hot powder down a small hole.
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
Cutnhrse, that's the point I was saying about if you ain't shoving the bullet it's slowing down. Cutting down the barrel 3.5" on a .357 mag really just decresed the amount of friction the rifling created on the bullet; the powder had already burnt. Considering the case capacity to bore area for a .243 Win, I don't think 'powders that were fastest with the long barrels were also fastest with the short barrels.' I read somewhere where a test was done on on a .243 starting with a 30" tube. They cut the barrel back in 1" increments and measured velocity. From 30 to 28" there was like a 10 fps loss per inch. From 28 to 26" there was a 20 fps loss per inch. From 26 to 20" there was a 40 fps loss per inch. I'm pretty sure they ran the same powder for the test. I would just try out some fast powder and cut the tube to 20"
Cutnhrse, that's the point I was saying about if you ain't shoving the bullet it's slowing down. Cutting down the barrel 3.5" on a .357 mag really just decresed the amount of friction the rifling created on the bullet; the powder had already burnt. Considering the case capacity to bore area for a .243 Win, I don't think 'powders that were fastest with the long barrels were also fastest with the short barrels.' I read somewhere where a test was done on on a .243 starting with a 30" tube. They cut the barrel back in 1" increments and measured velocity. From 30 to 28" there was like a 10 fps loss per inch. From 28 to 26" there was a 20 fps loss per inch. From 26 to 20" there was a 40 fps loss per inch. I'm pretty sure they ran the same powder for the test. I would just try out some fast powder and cut the tube to 20"
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
Thats what I'm sayin'!!
Now, we could get into hold-back pressures and achieving them by using heavier grain weight bullets, Tight twists with low grain weight bulets, or, the combination of both. But, I don't feel like it honestly. It makes a pain between my ears.
JCH pretty much confirmed that RL-15 is going to work best in a short barrel. However, I'm still open to other suggestions.
Thats what I'm sayin'!!
Now, we could get into hold-back pressures and achieving them by using heavier grain weight bullets, Tight twists with low grain weight bulets, or, the combination of both. But, I don't feel like it honestly. It makes a pain between my ears.
JCH pretty much confirmed that RL-15 is going to work best in a short barrel. However, I'm still open to other suggestions.
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
IMR4320 is the best powder for my 243 with a 20 inch barrel. I expect it will be good on down to as short as about 16". Extremely accurate but YMMV.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Barrel length doesn't change what powder you use.
</div></div>
You fail. Go to the back of the class. You may want to learn before you try to teach, just saying.
IMR4320 is the best powder for my 243 with a 20 inch barrel. I expect it will be good on down to as short as about 16". Extremely accurate but YMMV.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Barrel length doesn't change what powder you use.
</div></div>
You fail. Go to the back of the class. You may want to learn before you try to teach, just saying.
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
I'm quite surprised given the overall caliber of this reloading forum at just how many folks still believe the "fast power short barrel" mythology. Even the most cursory glance at data for handcanons vs rifles will show that 9 times in 10 the propellants producing top velocity in a 24" rifle are the very same propellants that do so in a 15" contender.
You might find a particular rifle that has an affinity for a faster power over a slow one from time to time but that doesn't change the fact that optimum burn rate is determined by the bore/case ratio, bullet weight and pressure rating. Barrel length is quite after the fact.
I don't know why but folks operate under this illusion that powers are pushing a bullet forward like a rocket and are "burning" during the entire bullets travel. I guess the muzzle flash generated as superheated gas and expended powder particles hit the oxygen rich atmosphere throws folks off. Any pressure trace chart that shows the curve over bullet travel/time will show how pressures are highest just as the bullet starts to move and are decreasing exponentially as the bullet progresses down the bore.
Now where yo can improve things with faster powders is in the area of muzzle blast in shorter barrels, but this is because the faster propellant's pressure curve drops off more rapidly (because you use less of it) and therefore pressure/blast is less as the bullet clears the muzzle. Which less pressure at the muzzle = (say it with me) less velocity
I'm quite surprised given the overall caliber of this reloading forum at just how many folks still believe the "fast power short barrel" mythology. Even the most cursory glance at data for handcanons vs rifles will show that 9 times in 10 the propellants producing top velocity in a 24" rifle are the very same propellants that do so in a 15" contender.
You might find a particular rifle that has an affinity for a faster power over a slow one from time to time but that doesn't change the fact that optimum burn rate is determined by the bore/case ratio, bullet weight and pressure rating. Barrel length is quite after the fact.
I don't know why but folks operate under this illusion that powers are pushing a bullet forward like a rocket and are "burning" during the entire bullets travel. I guess the muzzle flash generated as superheated gas and expended powder particles hit the oxygen rich atmosphere throws folks off. Any pressure trace chart that shows the curve over bullet travel/time will show how pressures are highest just as the bullet starts to move and are decreasing exponentially as the bullet progresses down the bore.
Now where yo can improve things with faster powders is in the area of muzzle blast in shorter barrels, but this is because the faster propellant's pressure curve drops off more rapidly (because you use less of it) and therefore pressure/blast is less as the bullet clears the muzzle. Which less pressure at the muzzle = (say it with me) less velocity
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
Hows this the last 18.5 inch barrel that I shot over a chrony using 100g factory loads didn't even break 2700fps. 243 is so overbore it needs every inch of barrel you can put on one and as such is the absolute worst possible cartridge choice for a carbine.
A 18" 243 is a glorified 30-30 afield. If you're worried about achieving max performance from a 243 carbine then you DON'T WANT a 243 carbine. Comparing 308 to 243 in a carbine is literally like comparing 300wm to 458's performance in a short bbl, you can't do it.
Hows this the last 18.5 inch barrel that I shot over a chrony using 100g factory loads didn't even break 2700fps. 243 is so overbore it needs every inch of barrel you can put on one and as such is the absolute worst possible cartridge choice for a carbine.
A 18" 243 is a glorified 30-30 afield. If you're worried about achieving max performance from a 243 carbine then you DON'T WANT a 243 carbine. Comparing 308 to 243 in a carbine is literally like comparing 300wm to 458's performance in a short bbl, you can't do it.
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
Simple... You've made the choice so clear to me know. Why didn't I think of it before? Heck, if 243 in an 18inch is just a glorified 30/30 afield... Then I guess I'll be building a 30/40 Krag!! Gosh, the answer was right in front of me the whole time.
Now where's my doughboy hat?
Simple... You've made the choice so clear to me know. Why didn't I think of it before? Heck, if 243 in an 18inch is just a glorified 30/30 afield... Then I guess I'll be building a 30/40 Krag!! Gosh, the answer was right in front of me the whole time.
Now where's my doughboy hat?
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R.W.Dale</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm quite surprised given the overall caliber of this reloading forum at just how many folks still believe the "fast power short barrel" mythology. Even the most cursory glance at data for handcanons vs rifles will show that 9 times in 10 the propellants producing top velocity in a 24" rifle are the very same propellants that do so in a 15" contender.
You might find a particular rifle that has an affinity for a faster power over a slow one from time to time but that doesn't change the fact that optimum burn rate is determined by the bore/case ratio, bullet weight and pressure rating. Barrel length is quite after the fact.
I don't know why but folks operate under this illusion that powers are pushing a bullet forward like a rocket and are "burning" during the entire bullets travel. I guess the muzzle flash generated as superheated gas and expended powder particles hit the oxygen rich atmosphere throws folks off. Any pressure trace chart that shows the curve over bullet travel/time will show how pressures are highest just as the bullet starts to move and are decreasing exponentially as the bullet progresses down the bore.
Now where yo can improve things with faster powders is in the area of muzzle blast in shorter barrels, but this is because the faster propellant's pressure curve drops off more rapidly (because you use less of it) and therefore pressure/blast is less as the bullet clears the muzzle. Which less pressure at the muzzle = (say it with me) less velocity </div></div>
In my technical readings outside of forums, this is exactly what I have read and seen proven in studies. Thank you for confirming my readings.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R.W.Dale</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm quite surprised given the overall caliber of this reloading forum at just how many folks still believe the "fast power short barrel" mythology. Even the most cursory glance at data for handcanons vs rifles will show that 9 times in 10 the propellants producing top velocity in a 24" rifle are the very same propellants that do so in a 15" contender.
You might find a particular rifle that has an affinity for a faster power over a slow one from time to time but that doesn't change the fact that optimum burn rate is determined by the bore/case ratio, bullet weight and pressure rating. Barrel length is quite after the fact.
I don't know why but folks operate under this illusion that powers are pushing a bullet forward like a rocket and are "burning" during the entire bullets travel. I guess the muzzle flash generated as superheated gas and expended powder particles hit the oxygen rich atmosphere throws folks off. Any pressure trace chart that shows the curve over bullet travel/time will show how pressures are highest just as the bullet starts to move and are decreasing exponentially as the bullet progresses down the bore.
Now where yo can improve things with faster powders is in the area of muzzle blast in shorter barrels, but this is because the faster propellant's pressure curve drops off more rapidly (because you use less of it) and therefore pressure/blast is less as the bullet clears the muzzle. Which less pressure at the muzzle = (say it with me) less velocity </div></div>
In my technical readings outside of forums, this is exactly what I have read and seen proven in studies. Thank you for confirming my readings.
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
Me and son had an interesting thing with our short barrels. I'm no ballistic expert by a far means but I shoot a 260 and he shot a 7/08. We both were shooting 15" barrels, I shot 139 scenars and he shot 140 Bergers he got his best velocity with IMR4064, mine was with H4350. With identical powder charges (44gr) he got 2725 and I only got 2600. When I tried 4064 I got less velocity than my 4350. There are a lot of factors that are way over my head involved in this stuff, even my 260 compared to my friends 260 in same length barrels. I have a 3 groove Lilja and he has a McGowen. I have to run more powder to get same velocity as him with identical cases, bullets, primers and seating depth and both were chambered one after the other with same reamer. Seems like the best powder choice is different for calibers based on bullet diameter rather than case size.
I should also add that we were after the best velocity but also had to be the most accurate load at the same time so it was a bit of compromise for the 1000yard matches. The 7/08 surprised us both with it's velocities with same powder charge but different powder. It didn't do as well with either 4350.
Good thread and great reading so far.
Topstrap
Me and son had an interesting thing with our short barrels. I'm no ballistic expert by a far means but I shoot a 260 and he shot a 7/08. We both were shooting 15" barrels, I shot 139 scenars and he shot 140 Bergers he got his best velocity with IMR4064, mine was with H4350. With identical powder charges (44gr) he got 2725 and I only got 2600. When I tried 4064 I got less velocity than my 4350. There are a lot of factors that are way over my head involved in this stuff, even my 260 compared to my friends 260 in same length barrels. I have a 3 groove Lilja and he has a McGowen. I have to run more powder to get same velocity as him with identical cases, bullets, primers and seating depth and both were chambered one after the other with same reamer. Seems like the best powder choice is different for calibers based on bullet diameter rather than case size.
I should also add that we were after the best velocity but also had to be the most accurate load at the same time so it was a bit of compromise for the 1000yard matches. The 7/08 surprised us both with it's velocities with same powder charge but different powder. It didn't do as well with either 4350.
Good thread and great reading so far.
Topstrap
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
I have nothing left to say. I don't wanna play anymore. I'm taking my 30/40 Krag and going home.
Like I said before. I think I got i figured out for the most part. If anyone wants to suggest anymore powders or formulas, I'd be more than happy to have them. Thanks for all the help from the ones who actually tried.
I have nothing left to say. I don't wanna play anymore. I'm taking my 30/40 Krag and going home.
Like I said before. I think I got i figured out for the most part. If anyone wants to suggest anymore powders or formulas, I'd be more than happy to have them. Thanks for all the help from the ones who actually tried.
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R.W.Dale</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
A 18" 243 is a glorified 30-30 afield. If you're worried about achieving max performance from a 243 carbine then you DON'T WANT a 243 carbine. Comparing 308 to 243 in a carbine is literally like comparing 300wm to 458's performance in a short bbl, you can't do it.</div></div>
That's laughable. How is a round nosed 30-30 equal to a 75gr vmax flying at nearly 3000fps?
My 18" 243 isn't for tactical matches. It isn't for killing elk. It isn't for shooting to 1000 yards or further. I chopped it for ease of use in the field to kill coyotes and the like.
The fact is this: Quick burning powders push the 75gr vmax up to speed faster than the slow burning powders.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R.W.Dale</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
A 18" 243 is a glorified 30-30 afield. If you're worried about achieving max performance from a 243 carbine then you DON'T WANT a 243 carbine. Comparing 308 to 243 in a carbine is literally like comparing 300wm to 458's performance in a short bbl, you can't do it.</div></div>
That's laughable. How is a round nosed 30-30 equal to a 75gr vmax flying at nearly 3000fps?
My 18" 243 isn't for tactical matches. It isn't for killing elk. It isn't for shooting to 1000 yards or further. I chopped it for ease of use in the field to kill coyotes and the like.
The fact is this: Quick burning powders push the 75gr vmax up to speed faster than the slow burning powders.
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
I have the Hornady 7th Edition Handbook here in front of me,according to them,in their 15" TC Encore,with their bullets,43.3gr H4350 will yield appx 2900 fps w/ an 87 gr bullet.Their 95-100 gr bullets show several powders yielding appx 2600 fps;H4350,IMR4064,IMR4831,WIN760.Once again,this is in a 15" bbl.The RL15 stops showing top velocities after 70 gr bullets,being replaced by H4350.
I have the Hornady 7th Edition Handbook here in front of me,according to them,in their 15" TC Encore,with their bullets,43.3gr H4350 will yield appx 2900 fps w/ an 87 gr bullet.Their 95-100 gr bullets show several powders yielding appx 2600 fps;H4350,IMR4064,IMR4831,WIN760.Once again,this is in a 15" bbl.The RL15 stops showing top velocities after 70 gr bullets,being replaced by H4350.
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SANDRAT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have the Hornady 7th Edition Handbook here in front of me,according to them,in their 15" TC Encore,with their bullets,43.3gr H4350 will yield appx 2900 fps w/ an 87 gr bullet.Their 95-100 gr bullets show several powders yielding appx 2600 fps;H4350,IMR4064,IMR4831,WIN760.Once again,this is in a 15" bbl.The RL15 stops showing top velocities after 70 gr bullets,being replaced by H4350.</div></div>
R15 for 75gr vmax was tops for me.
R17 for 87gr vmax was tops for me.
That is essentially what I sent him in a PM.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SANDRAT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have the Hornady 7th Edition Handbook here in front of me,according to them,in their 15" TC Encore,with their bullets,43.3gr H4350 will yield appx 2900 fps w/ an 87 gr bullet.Their 95-100 gr bullets show several powders yielding appx 2600 fps;H4350,IMR4064,IMR4831,WIN760.Once again,this is in a 15" bbl.The RL15 stops showing top velocities after 70 gr bullets,being replaced by H4350.</div></div>
R15 for 75gr vmax was tops for me.
R17 for 87gr vmax was tops for me.
That is essentially what I sent him in a PM.
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
Ok, pulled some data and came up with this "slightly above max" load. 95gr, 46.5 of 4350 yielding 3346 from a 22 inch barrel.
Now, I'll be using 90's and want to stay a little slower.
If you take off 50 feet per seconed per 2 inches, you'd get roughly 3300 from a 20 inch. If I run a 20 inch, I'd like to be @ 3200(by losing a grain or so). So, that would put me @ 3150 from an 18.5 inch roughly. Right where I want to be. Throw in the fact that I'm losing those extra 5 grains from Christmas and viola!! No excess pressure.
So I think I can do the math and work off of this load.
Ok, pulled some data and came up with this "slightly above max" load. 95gr, 46.5 of 4350 yielding 3346 from a 22 inch barrel.
Now, I'll be using 90's and want to stay a little slower.
If you take off 50 feet per seconed per 2 inches, you'd get roughly 3300 from a 20 inch. If I run a 20 inch, I'd like to be @ 3200(by losing a grain or so). So, that would put me @ 3150 from an 18.5 inch roughly. Right where I want to be. Throw in the fact that I'm losing those extra 5 grains from Christmas and viola!! No excess pressure.
So I think I can do the math and work off of this load.
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
Work your loads up, Dont guess or SWAG.
Bore diameter will be a much bigger factor than the length of your barrel when it comes to pressure and velocity.
Dont over analize your data, see what your rifle likes and feed it.
Work your loads up, Dont guess or SWAG.
Bore diameter will be a much bigger factor than the length of your barrel when it comes to pressure and velocity.
Dont over analize your data, see what your rifle likes and feed it.
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
Cutnhorse I am glad you figured out the load you need. I will say again you should try 4320 with the 90gr that is what works best for me but I have a different rifle.
As to the notion that barrel length means nothing in powder choice I will try and be more specific. It appears one needs to think like a lawyer to post here.
I specifically refered to this line:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Barrel length doesn't change what powder you use.</div></div>
I did not say anything about velocity nor does this quote. I will say again that this quote is patently absurd. I own and compete with numerous specialty long range pistols. I have told many in the past to use the rifle data when they obsess over availability of pistol data. Sometimes a load is great in my rifle and my pistol but it is not guaranteed. I too have read all over the internet and have talked to many fellow shooters and in my research almost everyone is obsessed with velocity. Whether a barrel is short or long, skinny or fat it has different harmonics and that CAN affect the powder you choose and the speed at which it burns.
Cutnhorse I am glad you figured out the load you need. I will say again you should try 4320 with the 90gr that is what works best for me but I have a different rifle.
As to the notion that barrel length means nothing in powder choice I will try and be more specific. It appears one needs to think like a lawyer to post here.
I specifically refered to this line:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Barrel length doesn't change what powder you use.</div></div>
I did not say anything about velocity nor does this quote. I will say again that this quote is patently absurd. I own and compete with numerous specialty long range pistols. I have told many in the past to use the rifle data when they obsess over availability of pistol data. Sometimes a load is great in my rifle and my pistol but it is not guaranteed. I too have read all over the internet and have talked to many fellow shooters and in my research almost everyone is obsessed with velocity. Whether a barrel is short or long, skinny or fat it has different harmonics and that CAN affect the powder you choose and the speed at which it burns.
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
I think you do have to think like a lawyer. It seems as though my critics on here did not read all of the things that I said. Not that it would've mattered. Like I said, no one even asked me what the intended porposes for this rifle were, they just spat off.
I'm gonna try 4320, 4350 and lastly RL19 if the others don't work. What do you suggest a good HIGH starting load would be? I don't want to burn through too many bullets. I'm trying to limit damage to my fun time and pocket book.
BTW, my barrel will be a light Palma with a .750 OMD. That coupled with short will be pretty rigid. Like I said before at the top. I'm using a Pac-Nor 6 poly, chrome moly, select match. This will take some playing with.
I think you do have to think like a lawyer. It seems as though my critics on here did not read all of the things that I said. Not that it would've mattered. Like I said, no one even asked me what the intended porposes for this rifle were, they just spat off.
I'm gonna try 4320, 4350 and lastly RL19 if the others don't work. What do you suggest a good HIGH starting load would be? I don't want to burn through too many bullets. I'm trying to limit damage to my fun time and pocket book.
BTW, my barrel will be a light Palma with a .750 OMD. That coupled with short will be pretty rigid. Like I said before at the top. I'm using a Pac-Nor 6 poly, chrome moly, select match. This will take some playing with.
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
I load my daughter's .243 20" with 95's and RL 22. Don't remember the velocity right off......somewhere in the 2900 fps range. A ballistic laser compared to a 30/30.
I load my daughter's .243 20" with 95's and RL 22. Don't remember the velocity right off......somewhere in the 2900 fps range. A ballistic laser compared to a 30/30.
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
ALOT of hunting rifles are 20 inch. The whole comment of 243 in a carbine compared to 30/30 afield was... well.
As strange as it seems to me now. Believe it or not. When I was a kid my Dad hunted with an old mkV m77 international stocked 243 in a 20 inch. We never loaded ammo, although he always bought the best. I never got to hunt deer with it, but he always let wring it out around our 750 acre farm that he lived on. To this day I have shot very few rifles nearly as accurate as that one. Not sure how, or why, but that thing was a real life tack driver. The rifle I had was an accurized sendero varmint youth with a 22 inch. It and very few rifles since have been able to do what that one would and by all means it shouldn't have been able to do any of it. Thats ONE of MANY reasons I'm choosing 243.
243 is an excellent round, even in a short barrel.
ALOT of hunting rifles are 20 inch. The whole comment of 243 in a carbine compared to 30/30 afield was... well.
As strange as it seems to me now. Believe it or not. When I was a kid my Dad hunted with an old mkV m77 international stocked 243 in a 20 inch. We never loaded ammo, although he always bought the best. I never got to hunt deer with it, but he always let wring it out around our 750 acre farm that he lived on. To this day I have shot very few rifles nearly as accurate as that one. Not sure how, or why, but that thing was a real life tack driver. The rifle I had was an accurized sendero varmint youth with a 22 inch. It and very few rifles since have been able to do what that one would and by all means it shouldn't have been able to do any of it. Thats ONE of MANY reasons I'm choosing 243.
243 is an excellent round, even in a short barrel.
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
My pet load in my Ruger MKII 243 is 38.4gr IMR4320 with the 90gr Sierra FMJ. This load is near listed max but not near max in my rifle. Your rifle will be different so approach the load with caution. I use Winchester brass and Fed 215M primers in the 243.
I had a 243 S&W1500 many years ago that liked IMR4350 and 85gr Nosler solid base. If I had known back then that bullet would be discontinued, I would have bought 10K of them. Best hunting bullet I ever used on small eastern NC whitetail. I shot a doe with the combination in 1989 in a hayfield at work. She was just shy of 450yds. I hit her low in the chest and found the bullet lodged under the skin of one of the hams. I am fairly certain that performance would be problematic for a 30-30. Yes I have killed deer with a 30-30 as well, but not near as many as with a 243.
My pet load in my Ruger MKII 243 is 38.4gr IMR4320 with the 90gr Sierra FMJ. This load is near listed max but not near max in my rifle. Your rifle will be different so approach the load with caution. I use Winchester brass and Fed 215M primers in the 243.
I had a 243 S&W1500 many years ago that liked IMR4350 and 85gr Nosler solid base. If I had known back then that bullet would be discontinued, I would have bought 10K of them. Best hunting bullet I ever used on small eastern NC whitetail. I shot a doe with the combination in 1989 in a hayfield at work. She was just shy of 450yds. I hit her low in the chest and found the bullet lodged under the skin of one of the hams. I am fairly certain that performance would be problematic for a 30-30. Yes I have killed deer with a 30-30 as well, but not near as many as with a 243.
Re: Powder for short barrel 243?
Cool, thanks chicken. I'll start there and work up.
BTW, I meant mk1 when I was talking about my Pops Ruger. Gosh, it has been so long since I've owned any store bought guns aside from rimfires I can't remember.
Cool, thanks chicken. I'll start there and work up.
BTW, I meant mk1 when I was talking about my Pops Ruger. Gosh, it has been so long since I've owned any store bought guns aside from rimfires I can't remember.
