• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

Powder speed question

Rant Durden

Calmer than you
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 18, 2018
297
298
Working up a load for 150gr Nosler e-tip and I can’t get three of the suggested powders to shoot. I have CFE223 which is in the middle of the burn chart for suggested powders and would like to try it.
Am I safe using a powder within the burn rates of the manufacturer load data?
 
What brass are you using?
Federal and Winchester.
185s shoot fine if I push to 2900, but I can’t get lighter stuff to shoot.
I’ve been futzing with this gun and guess I should be happy it’ll shot 185’s, I’d just like to shoot the lighter bullets.
 
I was going to suggest a lighter case with more capacity but you’re doing that already. Maybe a magnum primer like markymark suggested?
 
Federal magnum primer.
What is a “lighter case?”
 
Last edited:
I suppose it could work. Be nice if you had quick load to give you some data numbers to start. Did you try varget?
 
The powder is a bit fast for a 300WSM. You won't get good case fill to get to your desired speed.

Cartridge : .300 WSM (CIP)
Bullet : .308, 150, Nosler E-Tip RN 59451
Useable Case Capaci: 74.164 grain H2O = 4.815 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.860 inch = 72.64 mm
Barrel Length : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm
Powder : Hodgdon CFE223 *C

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 0.714% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-07.1 87 65.00 3146 3297 53404 9577 99.6 1.203
-06.4 88 65.50 3168 3343 54636 9620 99.7 1.190 ! Near Maximum !
-05.7 89 66.00 3190 3389 55896 9662 99.8 1.178 ! Near Maximum !
-05.0 89 66.50 3211 3435 57186 9702 99.9 1.166 ! Near Maximum !
-04.3 90 67.00 3233 3481 58506 9739 99.9 1.155 ! Near Maximum !
-03.6 91 67.50 3254 3528 59857 9774 100.0 1.143 ! Near Maximum !
-02.9 91 68.00 3276 3574 61240 9806 100.0 1.132 ! Near Maximum !
-02.1 92 68.50 3297 3621 62655 9836 100.0 1.120 ! Near Maximum !
-01.4 93 69.00 3318 3667 64104 9864 100.0 1.109 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-00.7 93 69.50 3339 3714 65587 9892 100.0 1.098 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0 94 70.00 3360 3761 67106 9920 100.0 1.087 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.7 95 70.50 3381 3808 68660 9947 100.0 1.077 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.4 95 71.00 3402 3855 70253 9974 100.0 1.066 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.1 96 71.50 3423 3903 71884 10000 100.0 1.056 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.9 97 72.00 3444 3950 73554 10026 100.0 1.045 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.6 97 72.50 3464 3997 75265 10052 100.0 1.035 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 94 70.00 3470 4011 79542 9558 100.0 1.016 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 94 70.00 3194 3398 54757 10156 98.1 1.183 ! Near Maximum !
 
The powder is a bit fast for a 300WSM. You won't get good case fill to get to your desired speed.

Cartridge : .300 WSM (CIP)
Bullet : .308, 150, Nosler E-Tip RN 59451
Useable Case Capaci: 74.164 grain H2O = 4.815 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.860 inch = 72.64 mm
Barrel Length : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm
Powder : Hodgdon CFE223 *C

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 0.714% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-07.1 87 65.00 3146 3297 53404 9577 99.6 1.203
-06.4 88 65.50 3168 3343 54636 9620 99.7 1.190 ! Near Maximum !
-05.7 89 66.00 3190 3389 55896 9662 99.8 1.178 ! Near Maximum !
-05.0 89 66.50 3211 3435 57186 9702 99.9 1.166 ! Near Maximum !
-04.3 90 67.00 3233 3481 58506 9739 99.9 1.155 ! Near Maximum !
-03.6 91 67.50 3254 3528 59857 9774 100.0 1.143 ! Near Maximum !
-02.9 91 68.00 3276 3574 61240 9806 100.0 1.132 ! Near Maximum !
-02.1 92 68.50 3297 3621 62655 9836 100.0 1.120 ! Near Maximum !
-01.4 93 69.00 3318 3667 64104 9864 100.0 1.109 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-00.7 93 69.50 3339 3714 65587 9892 100.0 1.098 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0 94 70.00 3360 3761 67106 9920 100.0 1.087 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.7 95 70.50 3381 3808 68660 9947 100.0 1.077 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.4 95 71.00 3402 3855 70253 9974 100.0 1.066 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.1 96 71.50 3423 3903 71884 10000 100.0 1.056 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.9 97 72.00 3444 3950 73554 10026 100.0 1.045 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.6 97 72.50 3464 3997 75265 10052 100.0 1.035 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 94 70.00 3470 4011 79542 9558 100.0 1.016 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 94 70.00 3194 3398 54757 10156 98.1 1.183 ! Near Maximum !
I guess the crux of my question is why is RL15 on the Nosler list/suggested powders and CFE223 is not if RL15 is listed as faster the the CFE223?
 
I guess the crux of my question is why is RL15 on the Nosler list/suggested powders and CFE223 is not if RL15 is listed as faster the the CFE223?
Cause that's what they had on hand when they did the testing. You can try it all you want, but I'm in the camp of using the right powder for the cartridge. Not whatever you have on hand that works. I wouldn't consider using those components for the 300WSM. Use a heavier bullet with a slower burning powder. But I get it, you have those components on hand, new powder and bullets aren't cheap.
 
You mentioned using the right powder for the right cartridge, are you saying 300wsm should only shoot heavy bullets and only certain components? Because all the manufacturers load data lists a range of bullet weights and powders.
Explain it to me like I wear a mask inside a car, alone, on the freeway.
 
Using a faster burning powder in that amount that can push a bullet that fast is going to really wear out a barrel fast. Also, accuracy can be hit or miss if you don't have good case fill. It can also be dangerous if the fill is too low. Powder should burn from back to front of the case. Low fill can cause it to burn from top to bottom causing a pressure issue or just uneven burn.
 
I guess the crux of my question is why is RL15 on the Nosler list/suggested powders and CFE223 is not if RL15 is listed as faster the the CFE223?
Because burn rate charts are inherently flawed and make assumptions that arent always applicable, its a nice reference but its far from absolute on what could be appropriate.

You said three powders are giving you issues, but only named cfe223, what are the others? I never would have imagined using cfe223 in a magnum.

And If you used three powders with the 150 etip then I might recommend you try something other than that bullet with a reputation of being difficult to sort out. Get yourself a bullet thats easy to shoot like the 150 sierra gameking spbt and youll have it shooting dimes in no time- unless you are in commie states that requires no lead that is.
 
Because burn rate charts are inherently flawed and make assumptions that arent always applicable, its a nice reference but its far from absolute on what could be appropriate.

You said three powders are giving you issues, but only named cfe223, what are the others? I never would have imagined using cfe223 in a magnum.

And If you used three powders with the 150 etip then I might recommend you try something other than that bullet with a reputation of being difficult to sort out. Get yourself a bullet thats easy to shoot like the 150 sierra gameking spbt and youll have it shooting dimes in no time- unless you are in commie states that requires no lead that is.
I’m not sure the problem is the powder, but I’m not sure what else to try.
4350, 4064 and 4831 all with Federal magnum primer. I am indeed behind enemy lines so working up unleaded loads is my primary goal.
We do a bunch of varmint shooting and adapted to the unleaded rounds with a bit of trial and error.
 
Using a faster burning powder in that amount that can push a bullet that fast is going to really wear out a barrel fast. Also, accuracy can be hit or miss if you don't have good case fill. It can also be dangerous if the fill is too low. Powder should burn from back to front of the case. Low fill can cause it to burn from top to bottom causing a pressure issue or just uneven burn.
Thanks for the fill chart, I only had a very passing understanding of this.
 
As many of you know, I come from the world of handgun silhouette where no one shoots standard cartridges and often loads have to be invented. Done a bunch of that myself. It can get scary. Its usually safer, much safer, to stick with what has been previously tested when and if available.

Different powders, though of the same burn rate, have different temperature rises, different pressure rises, different pressure tolerances. That’s why the old SR4759, which works great in light or reduced loads in large cases but using WW 296, if it would ignite might get splashy. Both have identical burn rates.

Point, might need to look at a full ladder test, try different primers. My TCU loved BR4’s, my fast twist .221 Fireball shooting 80 grain Bergers loved WSR’s and neither handgun would shoot well with the opposite brand of primers).

And now, the final point. Some rifles don’t shoot certain bullets well. My guess would be the bearing surface, and where the bearing surface interacts with the crown when leaving the barrel. I had an XP100 in 7BR. Using a 140 grain Sierra Matchking, it would be on target at 100 meters. Using a 145 grain Speer HPBT, it would be 7 inches to the right. (All other factors were equal) Its a crazy game and getting there is all the fun (till it gets frustrating)

And I agree with others, just because you have a bunch of powder, does not mean you should use it. Even today, poweder is cheap; barrels, actions, eyes, arms…not so much.
 
I’m not sure the problem is the powder, but I’m not sure what else to try.
4350, 4064 and 4831 all with Federal magnum primer. I am indeed behind enemy lines so working up unleaded loads is my primary goal.
We do a bunch of varmint shooting and adapted to the unleaded rounds with a bit of trial and error.
4350 and 4831 would work with the 300WSM. 4831 is a really good short magnum powder. That's all I used when I had my 7WSM.
 
I guess the crux of my question is why is RL15 on the Nosler list/suggested powders and CFE223 is not if RL15 is listed as faster the the CFE223?

Better case fill maybe? CFE has poor case fill for your application. Maybe Hodgdon had powder positioning issues and erratic velocities. Who knows.

The one thing I have learned to accept over the years is you can’t always get a particular combination to shoot no matter what you do.
 
I’m not sure the problem is the powder, but I’m not sure what else to try.
4350, 4064 and 4831 all with Federal magnum primer. I am indeed behind enemy lines so working up unleaded loads is my primary goal.
We do a bunch of varmint shooting and adapted to the unleaded rounds with a bit of trial and error.

You might wanna try standard primers
 
Standard primers are next.
Thanks for all the replies and information.
As usual, The Hide provides.