Precision first, tactical second - Barrel advice

[Nivium]

There seems to be a split among gunowners between precision-minded firearms and tactical/SHTF firearms. This makes sense, as different goals warrant different parts. Plus, everyone likes to encompass both in a lot of builds.

Typically, though, you find requests for "the most accurate barrel" or "longest barrel life"--something like that. My goal is to build out an upper with precision as the first priority, and SHTF as the second. To this end, I think (correct me, Hide, if you have different opinions) that my goal is the most precision oriented barrel that is available nitrided. I don't want to hash up the CHF/chrome-lined vs. nitride argument, because I know that chrome-lining is better for incredibly hard use, long duty durations, and somewhat frequent full-auto fire. Nitrided is, all things being equal, going to give better accuracy though, and offers almost as much durability, if not more without full auto fire (as well as a long-lasting throat).

My question is: what is the best barrel for precision that is obtainable in nitride without long waits to have a third-party nitride it for you? I think kreiger will nitride any custom AR barrel for you when you order, and I'm not sure if you can get craddock, compass lake or precision firearms to do the same. Is kreiger+nitride the best choice here, should I bite the bullet and get a proof, break it in, then have it nitrided by a third party?

Thanks in advance

 

[Neurotic]

Why not a chrome lined Criterion?

In these shtf survival scenarios, for how long will shit be hitting the fan? Are people concerned about shooting out a barrel in survival mode?

 

[Constructor]

There seems to be a split among gunowners between precision-minded firearms and tactical/SHTF firearms. This makes sense, as different goals warrant different parts. Plus, everyone likes to encompass both in a lot of builds.

Typically, though, you find requests for "the most accurate barrel" or "longest barrel life"--something like that. My goal is to build out an upper with precision as the first priority, and SHTF as the second. To this end, I think (correct me, Hide, if you have different opinions) that my goal is the most precision oriented barrel that is available nitrided. I don't want to hash up the CHF/chrome-lined vs. nitride argument, because I know that chrome-lining is better for incredibly hard use, long duty durations, and somewhat frequent full-auto fire. Nitrided is, all things being equal, going to give better accuracy though, and offers almost as much durability, if not more without full auto fire (as well as a long-lasting throat).

My question is: what is the best barrel for precision that is obtainable in nitride without long waits to have a third-party nitride it for you? I think kreiger will nitride any custom AR barrel for you when you order, and I'm not sure if you can get craddock, compass lake or precision firearms to do the same. Is kreiger+nitride the best choice here, should I bite the bullet and get a proof, break it in, then have it nitrided by a third party?

Thanks in advance

You can not buy a barrel with the extension installed and gas port drilled and then have it Nitride treated without removing the barrel extension and finding one close to 357* and then torque it to align with the gas port. Sometimes that requires facing the extension so it will align at the correct torque.

 

[Nivium]

You can not buy a barrel with the extension installed and gas port drilled and then have it Nitride treated without removing the barrel extension and finding one close to 357* and then torque it to align with the gas port. Sometimes that requires facing the extension so it will align at the correct torque.

So does that mean that a kreiger custom ar barrel nitrided by kreiger is the only top-teir precision option without a lot of post-factory work?

I see a lot of guys advocating for the chrome-lined criterions, but in my experience, criterion barrels are not on the same level in terms of precision as, say, cut rifled bartleins and proofs. Don't get me wrong, criterions are awesome, available and more affordable. The difference in accuracy is marginal and the difference in price is more significant. That's why I am happy to recommend them. That said, if one wants to invest in a competitive min/max'y competition rig and have it double as a tactical rig, I would think a nitrided cut-rifle barrel from bartlein, kreiger, broughton or proof would be the best. Seems like kreiger is the only one that can be ordered in a streamlined way, though. Anyone know of others?

 

[Constructor]

So does that mean that a kreiger custom ar barrel nitrided by kreiger is the only top-teir precision option without a lot of post-factory work?

I see a lot of guys advocating for the chrome-lined criterions, but in my experience, criterion barrels are not on the same level in terms of precision as, say, cut rifled bartleins and proofs. Don't get me wrong, criterions are awesome, available and more affordable. The difference in accuracy is marginal and the difference in price is more significant. That's why I am happy to recommend them. That said, if one wants to invest in a competitive min/max'y competition rig and have it double as a tactical rig, I would think a nitrided cut-rifle barrel from bartlein, kreiger, broughton or proof would be the best. Seems like kreiger is the only one that can be ordered in a streamlined way, though. Anyone know of others?

Possibly. There is no guarantee that any barrel will shoot 1/4 MOA or that the shooter can load or shoot well enough to get 1/4MOA but Krieger, Bartlein or Broughton will certainly help. Personally I don't even look at any of the others if I want the best accuracy possible. That 1/4-1/2" range will only be off the bench under the best conditions so you need to ask yourself what the real use will be and how much accuracy you need. PRS and most comps are about the shooter and their ability. A 1/4MOA barrel isn't going to make a on the move or in a hurry 1MOA shooter a 1/4 MOA shooter. 3/4 MOA should be pretty easy with any $200 barrel handloading with the right combination with some getting closer to 1/2 MOA.

 

[S197]

There seems to be a split among gunowners between precision-minded firearms and tactical/SHTF firearms. This makes sense, as different goals warrant different parts. Plus, everyone likes to encompass both in a lot of builds.

Typically, though, you find requests for "the most accurate barrel" or "longest barrel life"--something like that. My goal is to build out an upper with precision as the first priority, and SHTF as the second. To this end, I think (correct me, Hide, if you have different opinions) that my goal is the most precision oriented barrel that is available nitrided. I don't want to hash up the CHF/chrome-lined vs. nitride argument, because I know that chrome-lining is better for incredibly hard use, long duty durations, and somewhat frequent full-auto fire. Nitrided is, all things being equal, going to give better accuracy though, and offers almost as much durability, if not more without full auto fire (as well as a long-lasting throat).

My question is: what is the best barrel for precision that is obtainable in nitride without long waits to have a third-party nitride it for you? I think kreiger will nitride any custom AR barrel for you when you order, and I'm not sure if you can get craddock, compass lake or precision firearms to do the same. Is kreiger+nitride the best choice here, should I bite the bullet and get a proof, break it in, then have it nitrided by a third party?

Thanks in advance

How many yards are you planning on running the rifle?

 

[Molon]

So does that mean that a kreiger custom ar barrel nitrided by kreiger . . .

Please stop posting this BS. Krieger Barrels Inc. DOES NOT nitride their custom AR-15 barrels.


...

 

[MontanaMan]

Possibly. There is no guarantee that any barrel will shoot 1/4 MOA or that the shooter can load or shoot well enough to get 1/4MOA but Krieger, Bartlein or Broughton will certainly help. Personally I don't even look at any of the others if I want the best accuracy possible. That 1/4-1/2" range will only be off the bench under the best conditions so you need to ask yourself what the real use will be and how much accuracy you need. PRS and most comps are about the shooter and their ability. A 1/4MOA barrel isn't going to make a on the move or in a hurry 1MOA shooter a 1/4 MOA shooter. 3/4 MOA should be pretty easy with any $200 barrel handloading with the right combination with some getting closer to 1/2 MOA.

Absolutely GREAT post with tremendous restraint & kindness by someone who actually knows what they're talking about.

These kind of threads just make me shake my head as I wonder why anyone even responds.

MM

 

[Nivium]

How many yards are you planning on running the rifle?

.308 out to 800

 

[Nivium]

Please stop posting this BS. Krieger Barrels Inc. DOES NOT nitride their custom AR-15 barrels.


...

Then just say that instead of having an episode. My smith said that if you call kreiger, they will nitride an ar drop-in for you. Haven't called them myself, but that is what the forums are for. You'll survive

 

[JS8588]

I believe this is what you're looking for https://www.lothar-walther.com/1409...wylde-polygon-mud-1/2-28-unef-2a-l-16.00?c=24

 

[mheimer_45]

For you guys saying accuracy and nitride. Lol. Stainless in the best bet for accuracy. Bartlein or krieger. Period. There’s a reason they are expensive. And oh yea I’m pretty sure you can’t nitride stainless. A $6 can of krylon does just as good.

I lied. You can nitride a stainless barrel if you want to spend the $$$. Krylon can be easily repaired once you scratch it.

 

[Constructor]

For you guys saying accuracy and nitride. Lol. Stainless in the best bet for accuracy. Bartlein or krieger. Period. There’s a reason they are expensive. And oh yea I’m pretty sure you can’t nitride stainless. A 6 can of krylon does just as good.

Bullets don't know they are in a stainless or nitrided barrel...LOL The material makes no difference in accuracy however stainless does make it easier for home gunsmiths to finish the job.

 

[mheimer_45]

Bullets don't know they are in a stainless or nitrided barrel...LOL The material makes no difference in accuracy however stainless does make it easier for home gunsmiths to finish the job.

Let’s ask the resident expert @padom

 

[Constructor]

Let’s ask the resident expert @padom

You can ask whoever you need to to get the answer you want, it's the internet. I'll stick with over 40 years experience in chambering barrels. Buy 10 4150 Kriegers and 10 stainless Kriegers and test them. I'll put up a 4150 Nitride barrel against a Wilson Combat stainless any day.

 

[padom]

I dont have any experience with nitrided barrels first hand testing for accuracy... I also dont know of Bartlein or Krieger nitrided their barrels... Thats news to me.. but I never inquired so I have no input on that.

I do know a known gunsmith had a bunch of Krieger SS barrels nitrided years back to achieve exactly what the OP is wanting, longer barrel life and it killed the accuracy. They were tested for accuracy before sending them out. I dont have the details on who nitrided them, the exact spec or any other details. Thats just what they told me.

Now, I from my first hand experience and testing, SS barrels are not the only barrels you can get accuracy out of. They give you the best chance, but I have chrome lined barrels that shoot lights out too.

Here's a chromed lined 5.56 barrel that shoots tiny little groups....

 

[Constructor]

Old article but- http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...face-treatment-for-barrels-bolts-and-actions/

 

[JS8588]

For you guys saying accuracy and nitride. Lol. Stainless in the best bet for accuracy. Bartlein or krieger. Period. There’s a reason they are expensive. And oh yea I’m pretty sure you can’t nitride stainless. A $6 can of krylon does just as good.

I lied. You can nitride a stainless barrel if you want to spend the $$$. Krylon can be easily repaired once you scratch it.

How is it that in 2021 there are people who believe you can't nitride stainless?

 

[Constructor]

I dont have any experience with nitrided barrels first hand testing for accuracy... I also dont know of Bartlein or Krieger nitrided their barrels... Thats news to me.. but I never inquired so I have no input on that.

I do know a known gunsmith had a bunch of Krieger SS barrels nitrided years back to achieve exactly what the OP is wanting, longer barrel life and it killed the accuracy. They were tested for accuracy before sending them out. I dont have the details on who nitrided them, the exact spec or any other details. Thats just what they told me.

Now, I from my first hand experience and testing, SS barrels are not the only barrels you can get accuracy out of. They give you the best chance, but I have chrome lined barrels that shoot lights out too.
.
Here's a chromed lined 5.56 barrel that shoots tiny little groups....

Believe it or not I had a chrome lined Colt from the ban years that would shoot like that.

 

[Constructor]

How is it that in 2021 there are people who believe you can't nitride stainless?

You can, just a little different temperature and time in the dip. First batch I ran came out with a dark brown tint instead of jet black like the 4150 barrels do.

 

[padom]

Believe it or not I had a chrome lined Colt from the ban years that would shoot like that.

Most wouldnt believe it. Its a DD 10.3" Govt Profile on a SBR. Shoots lights out.

 

[Constructor]

I guess one thing we need to clarify, I'm talking barrels of the same quality. Krieger VS Krieger not stainless Krieger VS a production 4150. Many think every stainless barrel is a match grade barrel but that is far from true especially when talking about stainless AR barrels. Most are just production grade barrels made from stainless even if the seller is calling them "match grade". A quick look with a bore scope and a straightness test will tell the tale.

 

[JS8588]

You can, just a little different temperature and time in the dip. First batch I ran came out with a dark brown tint instead of jet black like the 4150 barrels do.

I've got one of your 6.5 Grendel barrels. I know it's not your favorite round, but if I could only keep one of them, the build with your barrel would be the one.

 

[lennyo3034]

I’ve had two Kriegers sent out for nitride. One on a match tuned M25 and another on an AR-10. While I wouldn’t say the treatment ruined accuracy I would say they came back slightly less accurate. The custom barrel manufacturers carefully heat treat their barrels to get rid of residual stresses so I can’t see dipping them into a 1000+ degree bath being helpful.

I agree with @Molon and really can’t see a barrel maker like Krieger doing a nitride treatment in house.

 

[Constructor]

I've got one of your 6.5 Grendel barrels. I know it's not your favorite round, but if I could only keep one of them, the build with your barrel would be the one.

There is nothing wrong with the round and they are plenty accurate enough but there is a long story that goes along with it. I had to machine the bolts in house if I wanted to sell barrels. It was near impossible to find strong extractors and I sure didn't want to machine those, it would have taken 7 ops in different fixtures. That means a lot of wasted time making a little cheap part. The Grendel is just more trouble than I want to deal with at this point in my life when I could sell more 5.56s and 6.8s than we can produce. Glad that one is shooting for you though.

 

[JS8588]

There is nothing wrong with the round and they are plenty accurate enough but there is a long story that goes along with it. I had to machine the bolts in house if I wanted to sell barrels. It was near impossible to find strong extractors and I sure didn't want to machine those, it would have taken 7 ops in different fixtures. That means a lot of wasted time making a little cheap part. The Grendel is just more trouble than I want to deal with at this point in my life when I could sell more 5.56s and 6.8s than we can produce. Glad that one is shooting for you though.

I paired it with a Maxim NiB bolt. Holding up just fine.

 

[dpb1776]

If you are looking at 308 or 5.56 why even bother with a nitride or even chrome lined? Both calibers have a long barrel life so they should last a long time unless your just doing mag dump after mag dump. I have a 16 inch BCM with a 410 stainless barrel that is north of 5000 rounds used in three gun and DMR matches plus a white oak armament with about the same number both still shoot great. Also a 14.5 colt socom barrel that is super accurate and more than up to hard use. Large frame AR's are a different animal entirely and more difficult shoot I don't have as much time behind them but shooting one that puts 5 rounds in roughly an MOA group was more than adequate to get hits at 800 yards on a man size target, that was from a stable position, shooting from hasty positions it's gonna be more on you, if the rifle is decently accurate it should be more than capable of good hits. A good trigger, ammo, optic and practice practice and more practice will get you farther than sweating over a half inch or one inch barrel IMHO.

 

[RUTGERS95]

BA per your inquiry but I'd stick with SS given your caliber choices