Precision Reloading & Shooting Handbook

[Winchester 69]

I was rummaging through some of my stored reloading stuff today and came across the referenced book; I'd forgotten I had it. It's the Tenth Edition that came out about ten years ago. Quite frequently it is mentioned in discussions of tutorial material for handloaders, as is Zediker's work, <span style="text-decoration: underline">Handloading</span> <span style="text-decoration: underline">for</span> <span style="text-decoration: underline">Competition</span>. The Precision Reloading book is an overview of handloading and benchrest shooting, including rifles and associated benchrest shooting equipment.

The handloading chapters cover less than 85 pages of textual material, but the amount of text on a page would be about a fourth that of a page in Zediker's book. It is summary description of material that is covered in great detail and with knowledgeable insight in over 400 pages in the Zediker book. In other words, the two works are not really comparable. The referenced work is out of print, and, having read both, is not worth tracking down for the reloading material. The Zediker book is a thorough education and, aside from its often criticized style, should be considered a higher-level work for those wanting detailed information.

 

[JLM]

Re: Precision Reloading & Shooting Handbook

I think I told you, I tried to track down a copy but to no avail. Interesting.

 

[Winchester 69]

Re: Precision Reloading & Shooting Handbook

I just went back and reviewed our PM's. Have you had the opportunity to experiment with your dies and press? I'm particularly interested in the press. When the ram is in compression (sizing and seating), it will deflect to reduce resistance; when the ram is in tension (withdrawing the expander ball), it will want to center to reduce resistance (which why a floating expander ball has an advantage). If the resistance is so light that its lateral force vector is successfully opposed by the brass without distortion, then ram slop may not have an influence. Otherwise, the brass is deformed. I'm still of the opinion that you paid for a better piece of equipment than you received from Redding.

I spent some time doing maintenance on my press this past weekend. I took a look at modifying the shell holder spring retainer so that the shell holder would be held loosely. The barb on the clip is radially opposed to the center of the ram, so simply bending the thing would do nothing; I replaced the steel clip with a rubber O-ring to provide tolerance if the case wants to align. I went over the ram with needle files, smoothing the top of the ram and in the shell holder groove. I discovered that the resistance to the shell holder moving freely was greatly reduced. I also cleaned up the retainer groove to prevent cutting the rubber O-ring. I did the same thing to a Redding shell holder and an older Pacific shell holder someone had given me, both of which have distinct tool marks. I discovered after doctoring the Pacific piece that it was damaged (not visibly so, but it wouldn't insert into the ram). I went to the local shop, that guy must be wealthy, and paid an exorbitant price for an RCBS replacement. Someone mentioned to me a good while back that he liked the RCBS shell holders. They have no tool marks and really don't benefit from smoothing; it's just not needed. I smoothed the machined surfaces on the press, and cleaned and re-lubed the pivots. I'm still delighted with the tightness and operational smoothness of the press, and feel that Redding owes you the same level of satisfaction.

Kinda' got off-topic, but what the hell - it's my post. Maybe someone will find it interesting. Have you invested in Zediker?

I just noticed that you're trademarked. And I'm approaching a promotion.

 

[JLM]

Re: Precision Reloading & Shooting Handbook

LOL well, let's go off topic then.

No I really haven't had as much chance to play with as I might like. Hunting season came and the influenza stopped by for a visit, so I'm now just getting back on track.

One thing thou, someone loaned me a Forster Co-Ax gauge (its actually one of the old Bonanza labeled ones so you can NOT check necks on it) so I could spin some of the ammo coming out of it, and the vast majority of it had a TIR of .002 or less. Sometimes less than .001 with 175 SMKS. I don't know why the results differ so much from that damned Bersin tool but there you have it. That's supposed to be a swanky tool, but I found it to be a PITA.

That being said, as we talked about before the ram kicks out towards the 12'oclock position at the top of the ram stroke. In fact if you raise the ram to a point where its right below contacting the bottom of the dies, you can actually reach up with one hand and move it back and forth between 6 and 12'o clock. Its almost as if the bore is oblong shaped and out of round at 6 and 12, and not circular if that makes sense. Redding
seemed to think it was a no big deal as I had alluded to you before. I should still have that email here somewhere I can perhaps forward it you. I know the two RCBS presses I have access to here do NOT exhibit that behaviour when you raise the ram.

Next town over has a couple copies of GZ's book so next time I'm over there I'm going to snag one. I was going to go over today but got sidetracked.

ETA: I'm running an o-ring under my sizer die lock ring, after reading that article from German. Don't know if that's making up for the slop in the press or not.

 

[JLM]

Re: Precision Reloading & Shooting Handbook

One more thing I'm curious about:

On your press when you have the handle parallel to the floor (ie the ram is near the top of its stroke) do you have any side to side play in the handle at all? Because I sure do. Granted everything is secured with those circlips, but I always wondered about that.

Thanks!

 

[Winchester 69]

Re: Precision Reloading & Shooting Handbook

Side play at the handle is due to loose fit in the links and their pins. It has nothing to do with the ram. Mine has none. The amount of play is constant in the press, but extending the handle away from the linkage amplifies the existence of play. Looseness certainly would increase the loading on the circlips. For the sake of comparison, check the play in a Rockchucker.

I've been wondering if Redding uses select fit in assembling its presses. If so, yours was assembled by someone less experienced. Management's allowing that to occur undermines whatever quality imperative they wish to enforce. Not by machines alone.

I'll get back with you later on your other post.

 

[Winchester 69]

Re: Precision Reloading & Shooting Handbook

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JLM ®</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing though, someone loaned me a Forster Co-Ax gauge (it's actually one of the old Bonanza labeled ones so you can NOT check necks on it) so I could spin some of the ammo coming out of it, and the vast majority of it had a TIR of .002 or less. Sometimes less than .001 with 175 SMKS. I don't know why the results differ so much from that damned Bersin tool but there you have it. That's supposed to be a swanky tool, but I found it to be a PITA. </div></div>
The Forster tool supports the neck or bullet on a mandrel, somewhat compromising its ability to measure the run-out. Really haven't had the opportunity to study the Bersin tool, but it does amplify the bullet run-out measurement. I don't know how it does with case-neck run-out. You have a great opportunity to learn for yourself what these tools are really doing. You'll have the basis for comparing what the Sinclair gauge does if you get one.

I've presented my analysis of ram slop. I doubt that the bore in the press is out of round; I think the ram is just undersized (or the bore oversized, as you prefer). Similarly with the links and pins. I'm thinking that your press was assembled by someone who was happy with the pin going in the hole rather than picking pieces for minimal tolerance. Were it mine, I'd tell Pat Ryan what I expected in their product and insist that they provide it. Reading their website's description of Redding quality, there's more to quality than the warehouseman's opinion of what is in the box. Quality has to do with the customer's expectation (<span style="font-style: italic">need</span>, actually). The press that you were given represents a high level in variation when compared to mine. A company that is capable of <span style="font-style: italic">quality</span> has low variation in critical dimensions, and somewhere in the production process the concept is being lost.

Putting the rubber O-ring under the lock ring in my opinion is done to compensate for any misalignment in the press frame, and is employed on the lightweight aluminum-framed presses the BR'ers carry to the range for bullet seating (RCBS <span style="font-style: italic">Partner</span>, Lee <span style="font-style: italic">Reloader</span>, etc., not the megabuck boutique thingies). I'll suggest that after you have gotten your press squared away and are happy with whatever run-out gauge you're using that you make comparisons with and w/o the O-ring. I'll be curious to know if it is beneficial.

Just for grins, I'll copy a list of ten points (round number) from page 71 of the <span style="text-decoration: underline">Precision</span> <span style="text-decoration: underline">Reloading</span> <span style="text-decoration: underline">&</span> <span style="text-decoration: underline">Shooting</span> <span style="text-decoration: underline">Handbook</span>, <span style="text-decoration: underline">10th</span> <span style="text-decoration: underline">Ed.</span>, regarding the sizing process.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1) Is the press ram perfectly aligned with the 7/8" - 14 threaded die hole?
2) Does the ram have excessive clearance in the hole through the casting?
3) Is the shellholder machined parallel? Is it centered in the press ram, and is it parallel to the machined surface of the 7/8" - 14 hole?
4) Is the outside diameter of the die concentric with the inside diameter? IMPORTANT!
5) Is the decapping unit centered in the die?
6) Is the decapping shaft centered in the lock nut?
7) Is the expander ball drilled and tapped on center? We have seen off centered ones many times.
8) Is the decapping shaft straight?
9) Is the expander diameter concentric?
10)Is the lock ring parallel to the mating surface of the press when installed on a die?</div></div>

 

[JLM]

Re: Precision Reloading & Shooting Handbook

Thanks for you help!

It's going to get boxed up and shipped back soon, especially if you enlightened me about the linkage, I have never been happy with that. Hopefully Pat will make things right.

I would have to agree on the Bersin tool. Considering what the thing costs it doesn't do a very good job. Also you can't measure necks with it. Almost nobody carries them anymore, I'm starting to think there is a reason for that

I'd like to get the Sinclair tool, but have other things on my plate right now. But that is on the HIGH priority list believe you me.

Does that book define 2) excessive clearance?

The rest of the points are obviously salient. Concentric, concentric, concentric, and concentric. Just like chambers and bores.

Good stuff my friend!

 

[Winchester 69]

Re: Precision Reloading & Shooting Handbook

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JLM ®</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for your help!</div></div>
You're welcome.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JLM ®</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's going to get boxed up and shipped back soon, especially as you enlightened me about the linkage. I have never been happy with that. Hopefully Pat will make things right.</div></div>
As you know, I'm vastly more concerned with the ram. There's no reason why both shouldn't be fixed.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JLM ®</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would have to agree on the Bersin tool. Considering what the thing costs, it doesn't do a very good job. Also, you can't measure necks with it. Almost nobody carries them anymore. I'm starting to think there is a reason for that

</div></div>
The Bersin philosophy advocates correcting a problem after it's been created. I'm sorry that Hornady has adopted the concept. The proper approach is to determine what causes the bullet misalignment (technique, tool, improper orientation between the lips and teeth,...) and correcting that situation, avoiding the misalignment.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JLM ®</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd like to get the Sinclair tool, but have other things on my plate right now. But that is on the HIGH priority list, believe you me.</div></div>
Continuing what you're doing will give you a greater insight into what the different tools are doing. There are different types of run-out and each needs to be understood. Properly defined problems may be solved; the others won't be, or won't be recognized as solved.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JLM ®</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does that book define 2) excessive clearance?</div></div>
Inadequate clearance is when the ram binds in it's bore. Too much clearance is when the brass gets distorted and bullets don't seat properly. When is that? Depends. Depends on the clearance. Depends on the brass. Depends on the die. Depends on the resistance to the ram. The amount of clearance determines the proportion of force that is exerted laterally. The clearance amplifies the deflection in the ram as it's extended, making the lateral force progressive. This is the one area where the Forster has an advantage IF compared to a press with ram clearance. What I know is that if there is no clearance, there is no potential for an issue.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JLM ®</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The rest of the points are obviously salient. Concentric, concentric, concentric, and concentric. Just like chambers and bores.</div></div>
Good catch.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JLM ®</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good stuff my friend!</div></div>
Aw, gee.

 

[bohem]

Re: Precision Reloading & Shooting Handbook

http://www.amazon.com/Handloading-Competition-Making-Target-Bigger/dp/096269259X/ref=pd_sim_b_3

Is that the book you haven't been able to locate?

It looked pretty good to me so I bought one of them just now.

 

[Winchester 69]

Re: Precision Reloading & Shooting Handbook

<span style="text-decoration: underline">Handloading</span> <span style="text-decoration: underline">for</span> <span style="text-decoration: underline">Competition</span> is in pint and readily available. Sinclair's <span style="text-decoration: underline">Precision</span> <span style="text-decoration: underline">Reloading</span> <span style="text-decoration: underline">&</span> <span style="text-decoration: underline">Shooting</span> <span style="text-decoration: underline">Handbook</span> is the one that's out of print and hard to find.

 

[bohem]

Re: Precision Reloading & Shooting Handbook

Damn, I thought we might have gotten lucky there.

 

[Winchester 69]

Re: Precision Reloading & Shooting Handbook

You did. If you can get past the rhetoric, you've got everything. The other book isn't bad, especially if you want an overview. Let us know what you think of it after you've done your time.