Rifle Scopes Premier or S&B

[Maggot]

i know Ive seen this question here before but cant find the post now that Im ready to buy. i do remember LL's comment the the Premier is better scope, but believe that was regarding the lower power. Hs anyone tried the new 5X25 Premier and how does it compare to the S&B, primarily in quality of glass...at 60 the old eyes need every advantage they can get. thanx, nd feel free to pm me.

 

[Surgeon_Shooter]

Re: Premier or S&B

ive looked through both the 4-16 s&b and the 3-15 premier and they are about the same scope to me exept 2 things. #1 both on 4x the premier has a better field of view #2 the PRICE. I own the s&b so im no picking sides

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Premier or S&B

5-25 PR isn't out yet, but that's what I'm waiting on. I went with it as I like the idea of being US made and more importantly, US based customer service if I ever need it!

 

[hydro556]

Re: Premier or S&B

I have a 5-25 Premier coming, and owned the 3-15 DT PH. I have a 5-25 S&B PMII. I think the the Heritage is an awesome optic and look forward to my 5-25, but for my use, the Premier is no better than the PMII. It is such a subjective subject, but the PMII is as nice as any scope I have owned, period.

That said, when you factor in price, I will say the PH is a better buy. Equal performance for less cost. IMO

 

[mastersgt]

Re: Premier or S&B

Id look into March, USO or Hensoldt if you are going to drop coin on optics...

 

[hydro556]

Re: Premier or S&B

Never tried March or Hensoldt. But, IMO, USO, Premier and S&B are all excellent optics and I would gladly use any of them from now on.

 

[Dogtown]

Re: Premier or S&B

How many times does this topic appear monthly? Do we need a sticky?

 

[hydro556]

Re: Premier or S&B

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dogtown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How many times does this topic appear monthly? Do we need a sticky? </div></div>


If it werent for duplicate topics, the interwebs would die.

 

[IsleofGough]

Re: Premier or S&B

I found PH and S&B equivalent optically at higher power, but slightly broader FOV for PH at low power. Both were sharper than two USO's. I haven't tried March or Hensoldt. I still wonder where the fluorite part is in Hensoldt, as it is softer than any glass. (not an issue if it is not the front part of the objective). I had an older Zeiss spotting scope and found the optics good but not outstanding as I had expected.

 

[padronanniversary]

Re: Premier or S&B

I'm in the same boat as well, but with younger eyes. I am debating on a S&B vs. the Premier as well.

Torn because the Premiers seem to be all accounted for at least for this new one.

I'm torn on the recticle as well. The new XR reticle seems very "busy". I personally never used one yet.

Not sure which way to go. The only thing about the Premier that to me may be an issue based on what I read on this board so far is its limited time out in the field. Its a fine company with a long heritage and US, and I try to support US companies as much as I can. But I would hate to be a "beta" tester paying premium for a scope that either lowers its price, like they did when the first ones come out, and then possibly having to pay for "upgrades". That's ust my 2 cents, not sure how valid it is, but its all been based on as much as I can find in terms of posts from the hide.

Now on the S&B how you guys liking the clockwise elevation ? I noticed they did offer a counter clockwise knob.

Can someone please help explain to me this color code thing with their elevation that they refer to. I do like the Premier from this perspective in that it has that detent feature, and also tool less zeroing. I think that is very slick.

I have not seen any S&B and Premiers with a sunshade. Do they make them as well as ARDs ?


As always I respect everyone's input here on the hide, one way or another and take it with a grain of salt. I'm looking forward to this discussion as well as my new scope one way or another.

 

[HuDisCo]

Re: Premier or S&B

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GoughIsland</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I still wonder where the fluorite part is in Hensoldt, as it is softer than any glass. (not an issue if it is not the front part of the objective). I had an older Zeiss spotting scope and found the optics good but not outstanding as I had expected. </div></div>
All scopes meet military specifications for abrasion. As is the case with anodized aluminum, the hardness comes from the coatings. These scopes have been in service with military units abroad for many many years.

I don't know what spotter you had, so I can’t comment on that, but, remember that Carl Zeiss Optronics is a completely different subsidiary of the Carl Zeiss group.

 

[rundm]

Re: Premier or S&B

I have opted to go with the premier in the 5x25 from Liberty. I hope they come in stock soon. For the poster who is worried about the price coming down, they are still selling the used premieres for a premium. Also, you can most likely bet that they won't be going below what Nightforce sells their FFP for. And no offense to S&B products, I know that the stuff is top notch but if I can get something that is very close or equally good in quality and optics for less money, then that is what I have to go with. I don't shoot a whole lot but when I do, I do so every day for a couple of weeks. If there were to be a warranty issue, I would sure like to know that my product would be back to me relativly quickly. No experience with S & B on that but have heard of long turn around times on them. I would love to have an S&B or Hensoldt but because of the cost, I am prohibited on either of them right now.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Premier or S&B

I never said one was better than another in that way... most of those high end scopes has something to improve on over the others, so you can't just say, Premier is Better than S&B, and I know I didn't say that, but I find different features to be preferable over another, but I'm not saying who or what that is.

 

[Maggot]

Re: Premier or S&B

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I never said one was better than another in that way... most of those high end scopes has something to improve on over the others, so you can't just say, Premier is Better than S&B, and I know I didn't say that, but I find different features to be preferable over another, but I'm not saying who or what that is. </div></div>

10/4 It was some time ago and I may not have recalled your exact words. No mis quaote intended.

 

[IsleofGough]

Re: Premier or S&B

Lowlight: Regarding scope comparisons, you said before regarding Premier vs Hensoldt:

"I will say I give a some extra credit to the Hensoldt over the Premier, but only a small amount, which maybe saying a lot or not really saying anything at all. To me, the one test to highlight the true optical quality of the Hensoldt over any other scopes is that sight picture / Eye relief test, especially when the clarity is close, because that sight picture takes the clarity debate off the table. Then it comes down to size, weight, use, wants and needs..."

I realize this thread is S&B vs PH but why is the sight picture so important if one has a very consistant cheek weld position? Eye relief would be important for larger calibers perhaps with greater kick, but wouldn't a narrower sight picture be a good thing to ensure a very consistant eye to scope position (which in other threads you have said is perhaps the most important aspect to maintaining consistant shots from varying shooting positions?

Am I misunderstanding and you are referring to field of view?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Premier or S&B

You essentially answered your own question.

There are several types on here that will buy a Premier / S&B or Hensoldt.

There are those that will use the stuff and attempt to get their full potential out of it, which are usually the very few. They will invest in these scopes to compete in tactical competitions with, or will be buying them on the part of the government whether Federal, State or Local, intending them to be put to hard use. Guys who get them as tools, more than trophies.

Then there are those who hunt for the latest and greatest who if they do shoot them, will do so on a manicured range, on a Sunday afternoon, looking forward to the day their wives' friends come over and the accompanying husbands will talk about their Callaway Clubs then they can break out their tactical masterpiece with the same stuff used by "Unit X" on top, and delight in the looks they get from the other fellas.

Not that any of these scopes mentioned won't fit into category A, it's just different people look for different things in an optic, specifically a tactical optic. In my opinion "tactical" has an implied alternate position component to it. That can be something so minor as to not allow the shooter to line up straight behind the rifle as to have their position affected by terrain. In this case, Eye Relief, sight picture edge to edge clarity is very important. It can mean the difference between a sliver of shadowing throwing the shot off 1 MOA at 100 when you are depending on a making a hit at 600. So in my opinion, an unforgiving sight picture is tick in the down column, doesn't mean its bad, just that a scope with a tick in the up column is better.

Now, I happen to like the Premier for an AR10 better than a S&B, in that case, the Premier's elevation is superior to the German scopes because they dont' need the angle of an aggressive base. So when I consider the right tool for the job, I look at what is important to me within the context of my use. If you're a fair weather shooter, who frequents the same range all the time, it doesn't matter what you buy, or why, cause frankly they are all so close to each other, who cares, what I like for whatever reason you'll probably never notice downrange... so it doesn't matter my reasoning behind it, what matters is what makes you feel good about your decision.

I use all of the scopes listed, I use them for different reasons, but I use them. So if I rate one a little differently than another its probably because of how I shoot, not how I feel about X, Y, or Z... I'm not emotionally invested in my decision, which is why I can take anyone of these scopes and throw them across the ground, or drop them off a building, cause its a tool, tools should be used, not admired.

 

[IsleofGough]

Re: Premier or S&B

Thanks for the explanation. But by "sight picture" are you talking about exit pupil diameter? If you have a sliver of shadowing, you are not looking dead center on the scope, and will likely be off at distance. The sliver would be a function of a bad cheek weld, not a bad scope.

One thing for me that is nice about the PH is easy rezeroing without bringing along a hex screwdriver. I also like the Gen 2 better than the original mil dot, and am not sure how long S&B's will be able to be repaired if they have that reticle. Last, I like supporting American companies. I don't have a collection of rifles and scopes anymore (hard times between AD), but durability and reliability would rate high in my pick. I practice mostly on BLM land, which is not manicured.

Despite what I read on this forum, the vast majority of AD military get no choice in weapons. I realize there are a few elite groups that do, but most of these choices pertain to contractors or non military. I'm at a point in my career where it is a moot point, but military personel picking these usually are doing so for their off time.

 

[hydro556]

Re: Premier or S&B

I shoot on a manicured range. And LOVE it. And I hunt.

Both uses, but especially the range, allow me to enjoy the advantages of the best glass I can afford.

When my wifes friends husbands come over, I could show them a Barska and call it the Special Forces scope of death, and they would believe. And not give a fuck.

So, I dont mention it. I would just as soon not have them know I am a gun guy. LOL.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Premier or S&B

Then what did you bother to ask me for my opinion if you already had an answer...

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Premier or S&B

And as a PS, I'm willing to bet you never saw a Hensoldt, so how can you expect to even understand the difference I am describing, because I can tell you that people that see it are completely blown away by the picture. I'll bet up front it gets huge marks next week at the scopes comparison.

I've been using a PH since the prototype, I have PT 016, & S&B for years, so I have basis for referencing my opinion, as opposed to no basis from which to draw a conclusion.

I personally happen to like a P4 reticle, and have several "Klein Reticle Special Build" S&Bs which is what I believe is a better reticle than the GEN II, to which the GEN II came after the Klein and references it in their patent. Its main cross wire is thinner and makes the mils and half mil hash marks more defined then the GEN II... However I do own several GEN II reticle S&Bs including an XR version, so I'm pretty versed in what I like why.

if you want to make it a straight up, comparison I'll go inch for inch, flaw for flaw, something which I think I have far more experience in discussing.

 

[beenjammin]

Re: Premier or S&B

Lowlight, when you held the video recorer behind the hendsoldt to show how forgiving sight picture/ eye relief was. that was amazing to me. It looked like I was looking through your scope from home.

Hendsoldt should show that video. I was sold when i saw it.

 

[Maggot]

Re: Premier or S&B

LL

Thanx for your insightful and thought provoking answer to that question and mine. By your interpretation I would be a fairweather shooter, though I like getting off the range to a friends farm to blow up and old car engine at 600 yds. To me perhaps the most important feature is clarity of glass because Ive found that the better I can see the better I can hit. That caused me to consider yoour statements about subjectivity. In any endeavor, shooting/optics included we must consider that as people we are just physically different. For instance my eyes at 60 may better process a particular section of the spectrum or different wavelengths and at different intensities than they did at 20 and differently from yours at 30 or 40 or what ever you may be. So though one scope may be better for you at this point, all other things equal, one with a larger objective might be better for me because it is some what brighter. Interesting stuff.

I do think it nice if one can have a fine tool which he uses well, and yet be able to admire it for the fine craftsmanship in its manufacture. Best of both worlds.

 

[IsleofGough]

Re: Premier or S&B

I asked for your opinion about what you meant by "sight picture" and what differentiated the Hensoldt from the PH. I have not looked through a Hensoldt, so I don't have any opinion about that scope myself. If you answer is that it is better because you looked through it and I haven't, then that is not much of an answer. However, I defer to your expertise with having owned or used lots of different scopes. My question was why a narrower sight picture might not be better, since it would require a more exacting cheek weld.

 

[beenjammin]

Re: Premier or S&B

Check out lowlights video on you tube. You will know exactly what hes talking about.

Its different seeing what hes talking about vs reading here in this case.

Id post the link to it, but I dont know if youtube links ar against the rules..

 

[Dsparil]

Re: Premier or S&B

since we're on the subject of premier reticles, do they plan on offering an moa/moa version of their scope?

 

[brando.john]

Re: Premier or S&B

I believe what LL was gettin at was that in a tactical enviornment you arent always going to be in a shooting position that you can be fundamentally perfect!!! you may be in a tight space that requires you laying sideways ect. so a scope with generous eye relief would be a valuable asset... thats what I got out of what he said, I may be wrong

So if you are going to be sitting on a bench at a range you may not appreciate the benefit a scope such as the hensoldt

 

[johnl]

Re: Premier or S&B

The Hensoldt 72mm hubble size scope is fucking awesome. Differently the best glass I looked through. I had a nightforce that I mentioned elsewhere. IMHO it doesn't hold a candle optically to the german glass. I can't speak for the PH since they are rarer than hens teeth in Canada. I bought the S&B 5-25x and couldn't be happier, and it was $750 cheaper than the hubble.

 

[shoepop]

Re: Premier or S&B

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dsparil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">since we're on the subject of premier reticles, do they plan on offering an moa/moa version of their scope? </div></div>

Yes you can get 1/4" elevation and windage. Go to their website and click 'option's.

 

[LibertyOptics]

Re: Premier or S&B

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GoughIsland</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I still wonder where the fluorite part is in Hensoldt, as it is softer than any glass. ( </div></div>

I wonder the same thing, but for different reasons. To my knowledge, the primary purpose of apochromatic lenses (extra low dispersion ED glass or better yet flourite crystal) is to significantly reduce chromatic abberation. One visible manifestation of this is the bright purple fringe on the edge of bright objects or sources of light, especially noticeable when the light/bright source in question is contrasted with a darker background. This is very common with a variety of optics I see and sell, but not with optics put together for the express purpose of minimizing this condition. As I reported at SHOT show, the Hensoldts I examined had some of the worst purple fringing I've seen, readily apparent when looking through the scope at the sodium lights in the ceiling. I saw it, a companion saw it, and at least one member of the Hensoldt booth acknowledged seeing it, but no explanation was offered. The answer may be quite complex, but right now the only conclusion I have is that either the Hensoldt scopes do not have true flourite optics in them, or the stuff they have in there is not doing its job for some reason. I'm leaning toward the latter. Either way, this is unacceptable in a scope at its price point, IMO.

To be sure, this is not the first time I've seen this, the new $4000 Leica 25-50x82 Televid Spotting Scope had horrendous color fringing when I checked it out a few months ago, outdoors. I was absolutely floored that a spotter designed and built the one express purpose of eliminating CA, had it in spades. A very expensive German spotter. The store optics manager saw it and couldn't believe it either.

At any rate, I'm wondering what the problem is here, or the explanation.

Neither the S&B, Nightforce, USO, or Premier Reticles exhibited this phenomenom. All looked through in the same manner.

To answer the OP's question, the optics of the S&B and Premier are very difficult to distinguish to my eyes; the scope test in Houston should provide some good empirical data. The Premier has amazing depth of field, clarity, everything your "old eyes" need to see better. However, the Premier is available for much less money than a comparable S&B, with a "from the ground up" tactical design, and US-based sales and service.

Coming soon is the new 5-25x56 Heritage, can't wait! If they are as awesome as the prototype at SHOT, it will a top choice for a long range riflescope.

Let us know if we can be of help.

Scott

 

[LibertyOptics]

Re: Premier or S&B

MOA knobs can be ordered with the scope. Do not beleive there is plans for an MOA reticle, but only Premier can answer that.

Scott

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Premier or S&B

Scott,

I continue to find your assertions based off the "Shot Shot Peek" misleading to people, at best. First you have to acknowledge, no one has ever had an issue with Zeiss glass and it is generally considered the standard to which all others are judged.

Secondly, the color temperature of lights can make a huge difference, as well how a particular coating reacts to those unbalanced lights can vary greatly. As a test for you, stop into a camera shop, a Wolf or something and pull a high end Nikon off the shelf, and in the White Balance move the Temperature setting for lights a few degrees in either direction and snap a picture then look at it the difference... there is a reason you use White Balance with a camera, because small variations can ruin a shot.

This would be like me, everytime the question of Premier vs anyone lists every thing I saw with my use of them, regardless of them being addressed or not. I just had patent statement of bullet points that said, "well when I used one, I saw the following problems", and left it at that. Guys would be pissed because it was a prototype and my job was to find problems.

Early on when the discussion was just USO or S&B people brought up the "blue' color of the S&B scopes, saying how unfair it was comparing because S&B used a Blue Blocker coating to enhance the contrast in shadows, so blah, blah, blah, it became a battle of colors. Well same thing, for all you know the purple reaction with sodium lights would have, at least outside reacted in a positive way with the green of vegetation allowing you to discern a camouflaged person against the foliage. So not knowing whether or not this was the goal, sort of misleads people saying you saw a purple lens flare against a set of unbalanced lights inside the Orlando Convention center.

Personally I think the scopes are pretty close to dead even on glass, but suggest the Zeiss is inferior I feel is simply not true, I have been behind both for more than 8 minutes. Not to try and bully you, but this example you cite is far from worthy of being posted over and over. If you feel this is an honest representation of the Hensoldt line, then by all means stand behind it, but from my experience, I don't think you're right.

 

[IsleofGough]

Re: Premier or S&B

I don't know if the scope would react differently in indoor light and outdoor, but color balance (white balance - applicable only to digital cameras) and color bias would be quite a different problem from color fringing (chromatic aberration). Fluorite lenses in high end camera lenses were more popular before manufacturers started creating better extra low dispersion glass. Zeiss glass is generally considered excellent (though Contax lenses were not thought to be the sharpest). Their fame came especially from pioneering lens coatings a long time ago. I cannot comment on the Hensold as already mentioned, as I've not seen it.

 

[Turk]

Re: Premier or S&B

Scott, you have been kind enough to extend the members here some great pricing! I am sure it is well appreciated! I urge you to reconsider some of your statements above, as others on here feel that optically; Hensoldt is second to none! I wish you continued success w/ your Premier line.

 

[hydro556]

Re: Premier or S&B

He just stated what he saw in that circumstance. How is he supposed to reconsider that? He saw what he saw.

He is not saying one scope is inferior to another, just that in a given circumstance that was his impression.

Scott is a straight shooter. His statement did nothing to dissuade me from still coveting a Hensoldt. Even though I know my needs are met by a MKIV.

 

[Turk]

Re: Premier or S&B

"Not doing it's job" denotes inferior in my book! What does that statement lead you to believe?

 

[hydro556]

Re: Premier or S&B

I took it as the FC wasnt doing its job. Not that the Hensoldt was in any way inferior.

 

[Turk]

Re: Premier or S&B

Correct me if I am wrong, but the FC is part of the Hensoldt; is it not? And it's not doing it's job so therefore......

 

[HuDisCo]

Re: Premier or S&B

Scott,

Large objective lenses are the ultimate for maximum resolution and low light performance, but they do bring some difficulties for the engineer.

1. Diffusing stray light becomes more difficult. (Remedied 1st with Proper Parallax Adjustment) (The available ARD or sunshade makes this easier)

2. Depth of field is more shallow. (I.E. Parallax adjustment is more critical.)

In other words stray light is what you saw from improperly set parallax adjustment on a 6-24x72mm.

All the best,

Nathan Hunt

 

[LibertyOptics]

Re: Premier or S&B

Ok, guys, let me start from the top.

Turk, I never suggested the Hensoldt was inferior. All I was asking is why an optical system expressly stated to have components that have traditionally been used to severely curtail chromatic abberation (manifested most commonly as I mentioned, with purple color fringing) wasn't successful in doing so. If you look at everything else I've ever written about the Hensoldt you will see I have been highly complimentary. It is a technologically advanced optical system that pushes the envelope of optical design. I said that at SHOT Show report 2009 and in those previous.

However, Frank clearly outlined above the context in which my observation would be insignificant, and also clearly stated that he alone has used both scopes in a field setting, which I have not. That pretty much ended the matter right there. I'm not making blanket statements on Hensoldt products, I've never seen Hendsoldt do this in the past and such would be foolish. If guys on this board think Hensdoldt is the best, then so be it. Don't let me dissuade you. But, my statements do apply to what Hendsoldt brought to the table in Orlando. Nothing more, nothing less.

Hi Nathan.

Let's face it, the friendliness stopped right at my SHOT report, and if I was such an idiot back then, you should have told everyone so. This is the first mention of this on the Hide since January, and of course it will be the last.

To suggest I'm slandering you is to suggest I'm lying to defame you in public. I'm not lying about anything, and I've never mentioned you by name except in a positive manner.

A pontificating saleman....hey, I'll accept that.

Now, to the meat of your criticism. I do know how to adjust for parallax and I did my best to adjust it correctly for the range I was looking through. I was unable to eliminate the purple fringing with any use of the side focus, with the diopter set so the reticle was in crisp focus. That is why when I came back for a lengthier second visit I brought along an optical engineer to show what I saw and see "what I was doing wrong". The gentleman, who I won't name but we both know, was able to minimize the purple flare in the center of the field of view, but was unable to eliminate it toward the edge, at all. Again, with flourite/ED optical elements built into the scope that normally combat this sort of thing, it didn't make any sense to me. That is where I expressed my disappointment, the same as the Leica spotter I mentioned. Nothing more, nothing less. I saw this on both the 72mm and 56mm scopes.

As for saying what I saw was stray light, I call bull. I bet some of the engineers back in Germany might be a touch offended at that suggestion. Stray light is an issue that is well handled with top quality lens coatings, something the Hensoldt has in spades. Stray light results in poor image quality, something the Hensoldt scopes do not suffer from. So I do not accept that as an explanation. But it's your product.

I'm not gaining financially by asking the question about Hensoldt scopes. Like I said, if somebody wants one they are going to get it. It is an upper echelon price point product.

As for mocking you, no mock intended, but nevertheless I will remove the offending parts of my original post and apologize to you and yours for the hurt feelings. This is absolutely nothing personal. Name calling nothwithstanding.

Take care,

Scott

 

[HuDisCo]

Re: Premier or S&B

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LibertyOptics</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The gentleman, who I won't name but we both know, was able to minimize the purple flare</div></div> I think this is important to note.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LibertyOptics</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Again, with flourite/ED optical elements built into the scope that normally combat this sort of thing, it didn't make any sense to me.</div></div> CA typically appears on only one or two sides of the object viewed. What you saw was all the way around and something else entirely.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LibertyOptics</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As for saying what I saw was stray light, I call bull.</div></div> Once again, stray light caused by an improperly focused scope.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LibertyOptics</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As for mocking you, no mock intended, but nevertheless I will remove the offending parts of my original post and apologize to you and yours for the hurt feelings. </div></div> As will I.

 

[johnl]

Re: Premier or S&B

Question for HuDisCo, was it my imagination but does the big 72mm give a slight concave ie fish eye effect at lower powers? It might just be me. The scope is awesome. I'm new to the tac-rifle world (pistols are my passion) and am amazed at the brand rivalry. Much worse than the Ford Chevy debate.

 

[HuDisCo]

Re: Premier or S&B

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnl</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Question for HuDisCo, was it my imagination but does the big 72mm give a slight concave ie fish eye effect at lower powers? It might just be me. The scope is awesome. I'm new to the tac-rifle world (pistols are my passion) and am amazed at the brand rivalry. Much worse than the Ford Chevy debate. </div></div>

John,

Thanks for the compliment. This has not been my typical experience. A flat field of veiw is one of our strong areas. Send me a PM and we can see what is going on.

This is not really brand rivalry. Please don't think this sort of thing is typical. Sometimes, however, it is necesary to set the record straight.

I hope you understand.

Take care,

Nathan

 

[Maggot]

Re: Premier or S&B

Good thread, learning a lot. Now I lust for a Hubble.

 

[IsleofGough]

Re: Premier or S&B

This is where I would love to see some objective evaluation of the scope the way camera lenses can be evaluated. I know LL got the answer that that would not be needed on a rifle scope, but these sort of questions can be answered objectively without creating hard feelings.

 

[livetohunt]

Re: Premier or S&B

I have several Hensoldt scopes and I Love them.I have never had any problems that Scott speaks of with my 6x24x72.I really think Nathan is right about the stray light from the extra lighting.That being said I think Scott is a stand up guy and tells it like he sees it.I dont think you can go wrong with either the Premier or the Hensoldt.But if money isnt a factor I think the 6x24x72 is the BEST scope out there with the SSG-P a close secound.I know its not for everyone but if you ever look through one I think most will be blown away.

 

[JRose]

Re: Premier or S&B

This thread has taken a disapointing turn...

 

[hunter223]

Re: Premier or S&B

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This thread has taken a disapointing turn... </div></div>

Yeah, fo sho. I hate pissing contest. especially when people get pissed when anybody even questions their product. Scott is a stand up guy just calling em like he sees em he's not trying to run anybodys product in the ground.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Premier or S&B

Nothing new for a product that is being touted as the latest and greatest (especially by well-respected hide members) to have an uproar raised when anyone questions anything about said product.

There's been more than once that I dropped as much hard earned dough on something that I possibly could, and did so based on its reputation here only to find later that there were known drawbacks that were never really raised publicly.

Its a shame that this thread has turned this way, especially since the original question was a question of S&B and Premier.

Sad to see Scott getting his wrist slapped publicly for calling it as he saw it. I've seen and experienced nothing but a serious commitment by Scott to doing what he can to help 'hide members over the years. His full disclosure of issues as they arose with the SH IOR was very telling of what kind of person he is, let alone the fact that he got a scope prototyped and produced to "our" specifications by a manufacturer that has been recalcitrant to acknowledging the needs of the US practical shooting community up to that point.

I can't comment on HuDisCo as the only impression I have of their service and attitude has just been formed on this thread, and unless the economy turns around hard I won't be able to afford to try a Hensoldt for myself.

 

[rksimple]

Re: Premier or S&B

Wow. I don't see a Hendsoldt in my future, unfortunately.

FWIW, I have the 5-25 PMII with p4fine and the 3.5-15 PR with the XR. If I could take the two scopes and smash them together and get the best points of each one, I'd have the perfect scope for me. YMMV. For the money, the Premier is getting tough to beat IMHO. Gonna get another.

 

[hydro556]

Re: Premier or S&B

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Its a shame that this thread has turned this way, especially since the original question was a question of S&B and Premier.

Sad to see Scott getting his wrist slapped publicly for calling it as he saw it. I've seen and experienced nothing but a serious commitment by Scott to doing what he can to help 'hide members over the years. /SNIP </div></div>

Well said.