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Pressure Tesing Equipment

308isgreat

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 1, 2008
274
0
Milton, FL
Where can I find this stuff? I've tried regular internet searches with no luck.

I've seen a few people post on here using screenshots of their own systems and would like to know where I can find one. Preferably, one that will give me pressure readings in CUP and PSI. Thanks!!!!
 
Re: Pressure Tesing Equipment

Really good engineers would ask you what you really want to do over and over until they wear you down.

I am just an average guy.
I will tell you that if I bond CEA-O6-250UW-350 strain gauges and AD8554 op amps in an instrumentation amplifier configuration, I can get great accuracy in measuring the strain on barrel steel locally. The stress to strain slope is fairly constant and known.

But there are some gaps in the process where the meaning of measurements get lost:
The measured strain to pressure relationship depends on the shape of the barrel and the location of the the gauge. The shape will have to be interpreted through Roark's book. The pressure in PSI has no real meaning other than what was capriciously registered at SAAMI.
Any one of those is a deal killer:
1) You don't know the barrel shape with accuracy.
2) You don't know the mathematical interpretation of the barrel shape to stress transform with accuracy.
3) You don't know the location you bonded the gauge on the barrel with accuracy.
4) Measurements in PSI have no meaning other than some SAAMI number.

If the pressure testing has no meaning, what does?
In a strong rifle, brass life has meaning.
You want to work up to the threshold of short brass life and back off a safety margin ala Vernon Speer 1956.

Who would use this pressure measuring stuff?
People who sell ammo need to do something, but the calibration process they use is not traceable to the NIST, but melds into a consensus.

Is there any harm in putting a strain gauge on my rifle for personal use?
No, as long as precautions are taken not to become smug with relative measurements as if they were absolute.

How can you make sense of this?
You can go to the other side and read Denton Bramwell or Ken Oehler and see if what they say circumvents what I say or vice versa.

Or you could ponder this joke:
Why can Baptists make love standing up?
Because it looks too much like they are dancing.

What does that joke have to do with pressure measurement?
The 1905 8x57 Mauser did 2900 fps with 150 gr.
That is at the threshold of the brass yield minus a safety margin.
104 years later you are using a Mauser case head design in your 308.
The 308 is registered at 60,000 psi to get it close to the yield minus a safety margin. To measure the pressure instead of looking for yield and backing off a safety margin is to introduce error, cost, delays, and extra equipment. But rules are rules and must be followed. If dancing might lead to sex, then sex cannot be done that looks like dancing, because that might lead to sex. Pressure must be measured to avoid brass yield, because brass yield looks like pressure that is measured at the threshold of brass yield.

 
Re: Pressure Tesing Equipment

H.P White They are the industry standard in pressure testing. To get set up properly is not cost effective for anyone not doing it on a regular basis.
 
Re: Pressure Tesing Equipment

Clark beat me to it.

The pressure rig that I've used is something that was put together similarly to how he describes. I used a DAQ card that has 8 50kHz inputs, tied it to my computer with Matlab. Used some quick scripts to data reduce and normalize the data and get ballpark figures for the wildcat that I was working on. I used a pair of Wheatstone bridge rosettes spaced at 90 degrees to each other at the center of volume of the chamber.

The strains were taken and correlated to a detailed FEM that I built of the geometry and checked it. My hand calculations, measured strains and FEM all fell within 5% so I was satisfied.

It's a lot of work to deal with, just to see if you're not pushing the limit and trying to make a 308 act like a 300 WM

EDIT: I built the whole thing for under 200 bucks.
 
Re: Pressure Tesing Equipment

I could have put something together myself (being an engineer and working for a company that makes strain gages), but for $500 it was much easier to just buy the RSI system (The readings are only in PSI, no CUP).

You don't need to be pushing the limits of your rifle for this system to be worthwhile. It's more than paid for itself in time and components (for me). I like to experiment and try different bullets and powders, it makes load work up fast and easy. It's helped me diagnose different problems in my brass and barrel that I might not have caught otherwise or would have wasted a lot of ammo on trying to solve.

It isn't dead-nuts accurate (of course). But, after calibrating, I figure I'm within +/- 2k psi. I know where I am relative to factory ammo, and relative to the loads listed in the Lyman manual. Which is more accurate than reading the brass will ever be.

The OBT node reference is also handy and matches my OCW test results quite accurately.

I have no regrets in buying it. Its one of those things that once you have it, you regret not buying it sooner. I put it at the same level of importance as a chronograph. Not everyone needs one, but it's definitely nice to have.
 
Re: Pressure Tesing Equipment

Kombayotch, have you had secondary pressure spikes on your trace? I have had
a few loads in life with over pressure signs well before they should have had.
 
Re: Pressure Tesing Equipment

Thanks to everyone for their input. It looks like the RSI setup is the way to go. I'm not too worried about the data being PSI only because I have the SAAMI conversion tables.

Thanks again guys, very good info.
 
Re: Pressure Tesing Equipment

Have any of you guys noticedd a primer lag on any of your loads?

After I got my RSI equipment, I was looking at teh various trace results for my 7WSM (Fed 215M primers) and notice every once in a while the pressure curve was delayed in time by 30 or 40 microseconds then tracked as normal. I talked with Jim Ristow of RSI about the issue, and he said it was a lag in the primer ignition after primer strike by the firing pin. According to Jim, its an issue that seems to be found with Federal Primers, but not really anyone elses....

JeffVN
 
Re: Pressure Tesing Equipment

Do you mean like the ones in the second link above?

I have gotten the lags for a few reasons, the main one being donuts or inconsistent neck tension. Before I turned my brass, I was getting them with every brand of primer except Winchester. There is something different about their primers (probably having something to do with all their powders being ball powders). I have had several occasions where their WLR primer outperformed all others.
 
Re: Pressure Tesing Equipment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you mean like the ones in the second link above?

I have gotten the lags for a few reasons, the main one being donuts or inconsistent neck tension. Before I turned my brass, I was getting them with every brand of primer except Winchester. There is something different about their primers (probably having something to do with all their powders being ball powders). I have had several occasions where their WLR primer outperformed all others. </div></div>


Can you explain a "donut" to me? Probably a dumb question, sorry.
 
Re: Pressure Tesing Equipment

It's basically thicker material at the bottom of the neck.

260AI%20donut.jpg
 
Re: Pressure Tesing Equipment

Thanks for clarifying that, I'll have to do some more research on what it does to groups, now that I know what I'm supposed to be watching for.
 
Re: Pressure Tesing Equipment

No doughnuts, this is new brass. It was just a 30-40 microsecond lag in ignition on the primer. Were it a shot on the range it would have likely shown up as an unexpected flier. If I can get a pic of the trace graph to show what I'm talking about I'll post it here.


JeffVN