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Projectiles & New Systems

L

Louis Corkern

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Dec 28, 2005
852
4
49
AR, USA
www.thorgdg.com
Hey guys,

I just wanted to pass along a "Heads Up" message to you all.

Good Day Everyone,

I just wanted to inform you all of a new company that is dedicated to the advancement of high temperature/pressure barrels, new generation of cartridges, and lathe turned solid projectiles for several pre-existing calibers.

Zethilius Associates would like to introduce you all to a new lathe turned solid projectile that has been designed utilizing aerospace industry technology with assistance from ballistic technicians. Here is the current bullet size, weight, and alloy. As you can see we have left out one number that everyone is going to ask as their first question. The BC!! Zethilius Associates would like to go about this approach in a novel way; that would be that we would like you to shoot the bullets and then tell us what you think the BC is. You may be asking yourself why in world would company do that...but the reason we are attempting this concept is that we don’t want people to have preconceived notion of what the projectile "MUST" be. We can give you all the numbers you wish but the only one that matters is the performance numbers in which our users get from range data and not just settle for some BC they were given.

We will be introducing 3 series of projectiles. The first series will be brass alloy, Second will be tellurium copper, Third will be oxygen free copper for an expandable hunting bullet.

Here is the caliber and price list for the First series:
30Cal @ 180gr @ 1.25$/each <span style="color: #CC0000">McCoy Stability Formula says will need a 7.1 twist for full stabilization. </span>
338Cal @ 241gr @ 1.39$/each <span style="color: #CC0000">McCoy Stability Formula says will need a 8.0 twist for full stabilization. </span>
375Cal @ 328gr @ 1.51$/each <span style="color: #CC0000">McCoy Stability Formula says will need a 8.7 twist for full stabilization. </span>
408Cal @ 413gr @ 1.70$/each <span style="color: #CC0000">McCoy Stability Formula says will need a 9.3 twist for full stabilization.</span>

Here is caliber and price list for Second series at this moment:
22Cal @86gr @ 1.02$/each <span style="color: #CC0000">McCoy Stability Formula says will need a 4.4 twist for full stabilization. </span>
30Cal @190gr @ TBD <span style="color: #CC0000">McCoy Stability Formula says will need a 7.2 twistfor full stabilization. </span>
338Cal @253gr @ TBD <span style="color: #CC0000">McCoy Stability Formula says will need a 8.1 twist for full stabilization.</span>
375Cal @345gr @ TBD <span style="color: #CC0000">McCoy Stability Formula says will need a 8.9 twist for full stabilization. </span>
408Cal @430gr @ TBD <span style="color: #CC0000"> McCoy Stability Formula says will need a 9.7 twist for full stabilization </span>

Noel Carlson [email protected]

Noel is not a member here so you can PM or email me with any questions. I will try to reply within a day or so of recieving. Or you can email him.

Here are couple pics I have. I will have complete set of pics very soon.

375@345gr Copper
375.jpg


22@86gr Copper
1219080012.jpg


This is how they came all packaged up
Packaging.jpg


EDITED TO ADD: Reason I posted this at the moment and not Noel is because I have Noel on a deadline for a new ultra long range weapon system and caliber for SHOT SHOW lol.
 
Re: Projectiles & New Systems

Oh boy...fun! And my schedule's clearing up..hmmmm
 
Re: Projectiles & New Systems

whats the bc or estimated at less
 
Re: Projectiles & New Systems

Will we be able to shoot in standard dimention barrels or will they only work in special barrels with dimentions to shoot? Will they wear faster on barrels? Sorry for the ignorance on solids? I am about to finish up a 338 lapua improved and you have my attention.


Thanks

Jason
 
Re: Projectiles & New Systems

Looks great. Good luck on the range at Yuma.

Too bad there were no 7mm pills on the list.

Damn glad to see someone makeing a turned solid that can be shot from a regular barrel. The suggested twists look pretty high, but that goes with the length of these ultra long pills.

JeffVN
 
Re: Projectiles & New Systems

Jason:

1. The projectiles are designed to function in normal chambers so no "bore rider" chamber needed. They projectiles are also designed to have a fixed COAL by loading the second band into neck of case so the special chamber is not needed.
2. Barrel life is expected to be better than normal due to less friction of bullet to the barrel because of the bands.

Jeff:
I too thought the same thing in regards to that 30cal twist rate, Upon discussing that with Noel and couple others here is the explanation--
That twist is needed to due design of projectile in regards to the length to weight balance needed for the specific metal alloy.

Thanks
 
Re: Projectiles & New Systems

Interested in the 253g 338's, my current barrel is a 9T, if that is suitable, would you ship to the UK?
 
Re: Projectiles & New Systems

Later,
You guys have any idea how these bullets will do subsonic? I have a 6 twist 300 whisper I would like to try some in.
 
Re: Projectiles & New Systems

Huckleberry,

Generally speaking subsonic flight is done with flatbased bullets. Did alot of experimenting in the 80s and 90s developing subsonic out of the barrel shots for 7.62 and 300 win mag, flatbase works the best across the board. The boat tail design ONLY improves BC, not necessarily accuracy (arguable, i know), the flatbase at that low velocity will have a cleaner release from the crown, which is critical. The bullets shown above frankly, are more likelely to have trouble getting a clean release subsonic and will yaw without a chance to straighten themselves out, so they'll yaw all the way downrange. In your 300 Whisper, try the 200 gr. Speer flatbase. In a 308 case, 15 gr. of 4895 worded excellent, again, as long as the crown is in great shape. Bad crown, not a chance.

Trig
 
Re: Projectiles & New Systems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Redmist</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interested in the 253g 338's, my current barrel is a 9T, if that is suitable, would you ship to the UK?</div></div>

Redmist: I have not shot the 338s personally. I will have results of them being fired from 9.4 twist within the week. I also have edited my first post with the McCoy Stability Formula suggested twist rates for information.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Huckleberry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Later,
You guys have any idea how these bullets will do subsonic? I have a 6 twist 300 whisper I would like to try some in.</div></div>

Huck:
I am going to agree with trigger50 on this one. I do not think these long projectiles with the length to weight ratio they have would stabilize subsonic.

Thanks
 
Re: Projectiles & New Systems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NOBODY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Easy to avoid stuff,that is hawked by a middleman.

I smell a train wreck.</div></div>


Not easy enough for your fingers to stop talking lol. Anyways as everyone you are entitled to your opinion and thats all good. And my opinion is that not being "hawked" due to I provided contact information to gentleman so people would not have to go thru me, so they could contact him and discuss ballistics & etc with him and not me. I have been upfront and honest from very beginning of this thread. Hell if I wanted to "hawk" things as middle man I would not have advised of proper twist rates needed by McCoy Formula, I would have just let people read the weight of projectile and assume that there "normal" twist rate would be acceptable.

Also--everyone on here is middleman of sort..being there are 35 vendors on the SH master list in which they are here to post their own stuff. Anything posted by someone in regards to any company not here is in relation a middleman.

Thanks
 
Re: Projectiles & New Systems

Later

thanks, I think even though the twist rate is .9" faster than what I have a few would still be worth trying with a 1-9 tube.

Could you advise on availability / shipping outside US - or would you rather discuss via PM / e-mail.


Thanks

RM
 
Re: Projectiles & New Systems

RM:

As you already know the McCoy Formula rates listed above are what is suggested to achieve optimum stability at the transonic distance(s). Which IMO (and opinion only cause I dont shoot a 338LM) is why alot of 338LM shooters are going from the 12 and 11 twist to the 9.4 and 9 for the 250s and 300s so that they can achieve better stability at the farther distances.

PM enroute.

Thanks
 
Re: Projectiles & New Systems

Redmist,

The copper projectile will stabilize in your 1:9" barrel, but the brass would be marginal at even at conventional ranges. This is relevant.

I am using brass for it's "economy". It will very closely approximate the hunting bullet in ballistic properties, but the oxygen free copper will be much slower to machine (in addition to a few extra manufacturing steps)... hence a considerable increase in cost. For most hunters this will be inconsequential due to the limited quantity needed in an average season. The rest of the year brass makes much more sense to shoot, and an 1:8.8" twist is best for this purpose.

Tellurium copper is inexpensive relative to other free machining copper alloys (nearly half that of beryllium copper), and does not have the associated toxicity. It is much too brittle to be used for hunting however... unless of course the game is two legged. Depending on the range, it will either cut a clean thru-hole, or tumble and blow out an exit crater. It should NEVER BE USED ON GAME.

The tellurium alloy does have a slightly better BC due to increased mass, and has a 1.5 stability factor with a 9.0" twist at Mach 2.5. I believe a tighter twist will be beneficial at extreme ranges.

I have checked U.S. Customs for any governing export regulations, and I can make a one-time shipment without an export license.

I am sorry I could not get this information to Later in order to pass it on to you. He has been inaccessable by telephone since I saw this thread (posssible hurricane aftermath complications). I am on the computer intermittently today, and can answer questions.

Best,
Noel
 
Re: Projectiles & New Systems

Chouca,

There is no dispute. Gerard Schultz (GS Custom) is the inventor of the engraving band design circa 1995. More specifically, he had the flash of brilliance to arrange them in the sacrificial arrangement necessary to effectively utilize an exponential gain rifling profile around 2001.

Small Arms development will come to owe him much for the possibilities this innovation brings. Some claims have been made that this is a vestige of WWI technology. At least as this relates to my application, the claim is absolutely false.

The Germans have been very active, since the 1940's, in developing low friction projectiles compatible in gain twist barrels. The internal ballistics reason is obvious. Up to a 10% gain in velocity is possible with equivalent peak chamber pressures. Gerard's solution is elegant, simple, and unlike anything which had been done before.

Ironically, he insists on manufacturing a bullet shaft in the precise diameter of the bore dimension... which mitigates the advantage somewhat. Gerard is also very knowledgeable in terminal ballistics.

 
Re: Projectiles & New Systems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chouca513</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am kinda wondering, there are some very similar designs of drive band bullets on the market. Who is copying from whom? But then no patents I guess. All three have excellent hunting bullets and at least two import to North America.
The german fellow has 7 mm bullets too...


http://gscustom.co.za/
http://www.gian-marchet.ch/index.html
http://www.lima-wiederladetechnik.de/Englisch/English_Rifle_Articles.htm
</div></div>


One might wonder why "this" is your FIRST post. Not the best way to introduce yourself if my eyes?

Jason
 
Re: Projectiles & New Systems

@ strictlyRUM:
your comment partially carries the the answer: I usually do not post here.
The specific reason to do so was this post.
Also I highly appreciate innovation, quality , service and competence. That is something you will find on all the websites I quoted above.
I find it honorable by Noel to acknowledge the groundbreaking innovations of GS.
However innovation did not stop there.
"Ironically, he insists on manufacturing a bullet shaft in the precise diameter of the bore dimension."(Noel). LiMa KJG are true drive band bullets with only the bands being full caliber dimension.
If you compare the design of Zethilius' .375 you will find them quite similar down to the number of bands.
[img:center]http://www.lima-wiederladetechnik.de/9,5-mm/Bilder/375-Chey-Tac/9,5-mm-MSG.jpg
Please compare to above.
You will also find brass long range bullets. http://www.lima-wiederladetechnik.de/Englisch/LM-Class-Bullets.htm

In my humble opinion I would like to hear a little more where the innovation in these bullets comes from, notably in comparison to existing designs.
On the other hand I am aware that design options in bullets are somewhat finite and similarities abound.
So the border between inspiration and copying may be fleeting. And imitation is still the sincerest form of flattery....
If you read the LiMa website you will find a wealth of valuable ballistic and reloading information as well as loads of practical hunting experience with copper monolithics demonstrating well researched design and application.
I agree that a critical post may not be an ideal start, but I try to stick to the facts, no flaming, no bullshitting. Thanks for a constructive discussion.

 
Re: Projectiles & New Systems

What you said kinda reminded me of the old Boeing/Airbus debate in my industry and the answer was, as technologys evolve and the different companies come along with new developments, there will come a time when they are exactly the same, the math doesn't lie. Numericly, there is only one best and they are all getting to it in different ways. Don't know if that made any sence or not.
 
Re: Projectiles & New Systems

Personally, I welcome advances in the ballistic sciences. The question is whether they will be practical enough to make a lasting appearance in the mainstream.

I would be more doubtful about this one if it weren't for the mounting opposition to lead in projectiles. That is a stream we are all going to have to ford sometime in the future.

Somebody has to take the first step. As far as projectiles like these are concerned, this may not be the first step, but it definitely looks like a good one. I wish these intrepid souls the very best fortune in this venture.

Greg
 
Re: Projectiles & New Systems

Chouca,

It had not been obvious to me that your first post was intended as critical. Understanding the development of this bullet style seems a perfectly reasonable path to justifying it's use. The second post indicates a clear disposition to focus upon LiMa KJG "innovations". If you had asked this directly, I could have provided a much more satisfactory response.

The pure "engraving band" feature actually <span style="font-weight: bold">does</span> date to the beginning of the last century. It is not new. GS Custom is aware of it, and with a fifteen second adjustment to the lathe programming, could instantly incorporate the dimensional tolerance into their product.

I have not been told this directly, but if I was to speculate, I would say that Gerard has made a sensible engineering trade-off. His focus appears to be on terminal ballistics. Malleable copper is necessary to meet this design criteria, but requires a greater engraving surface as a consequence (He may also be attempting to better accomodate the larger tolerances of production grade barrels.). Neither LiMa KJG, nor the other companies utilizing engraving bands in their design can compare with the GS product, in my opinion, as it relates to this issue. It is a matter of simple metallurgy. For large, or dangerous game, <span style="font-style: italic">I would use his bullets </span>.

That is not to say that a better compromise between the fragmenting properties of KJG, and the higher friction of GS projectiles, is unobtainable... it is. For anything a hunter might want to take on in North America (or the Middle East), my engineering "innovation" is adequate.

If you must squeeze an "innovation" from LiMa KJG it would be this;

Serious consideration of the aerodynamic properties of projectiles, large and small, has been neglected for the most part. Even current military ballistics subcontractors have a cookbook formula which is transparently archaic. LiMa utilization of the Haack nose, while inferior in this application to even the humble tangent ogive, is still a serious attempt to remedy the oversight. I note from your link that the LiMa projectile, at issue, omits the only genuine contemporary <span style="font-style: italic">invention </span> ... ie. , sacrificial forward bands. This seems to be a step backward for those who may wish to capitalize on exponential gain-twist rifling.

Innovation by others, such as it is at this stage, is truely modest. Wait till next year and I will possibly be able to say something different in this regard. Flyboy is dead on... "...the math doesn't lie".

Greg, thanks for the encouragement.

Best,
Noel
 
Re: Projectiles & New Systems

WOW! No disrespect, but I thaught I was a gun geek? LOVE it. People at the top of the game pushing forward. Thank you. LOVE it.

Jason

Keep it up gentlemen!
 
Re: Projectiles & New Systems

Noel

Good to see you here and participating.

I look forward to talking with Later about his exploits on the Yuma range. You guys keep on keeping on and let the nay-sayers say what they want. Pushing the edge of technology is not always warmly received.

Let me know if you decide to make a 7mm pill, as I'm building a platform that will make a nice test bed for your bullets.

JeffVN
 
Re: Projectiles & New Systems

Jeff,

The 7mm is not a problem.

I talked briefly to Later about this a few days ago. Drop me an e-mail.

Thanks,
Noel
 
Re: Projectiles & New Systems

I am interested in extreme long range accuracy,,,,,I sure don't want to be left behind.

That being said,,,,,,,,

Question for you Noel,,,,

I have several new builds, barrels are barely broken in. Is there a chance you can run some projectiles that would still be better than what is currently available and allow me to use my current barrels?

338 - 9.4 twist
30 cal - 10 twist and 11 twist

This would save me some bucks. When these barrels are gone, I could then step up to the faster twist rates for the super bullets.

I don't mean to insult, just thought I'ld ask.
 
Re: Projectiles & New Systems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1000YARDS+</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Question for you Noel,,,,

I have several new builds, barrels are barely broken in. Is there a chance you can run some projectiles that would still be better than what is currently available and allow me to use my current barrels?

338 - 9.4 twist

This would save me some bucks. When these barrels are gone, I could then step up to the faster twist rates for the super bullets.

I don't mean to insult, just thought I'ld ask.
</div></div>

I'm in the same boat as 1000YDS....

I'd be very interested in some .338's for a 9.4 twist...

Scott Nye
 
Re: Projectiles & New Systems

1,000YDS & Scott,

This was actually an issue I wrestled with. Do I optimize the projectile for maximum allowable cartridge length as determined by the magazine, or for existing barrel twist rates?

The first option, while less profitable in the short term, is still the best course in my mind. Barrels are consumable, and my thinking is that it would not be long before most avid shooters will be able to convert. I would have to consider the second path a transitional design.

On some reflection, it may not be an interim compromise after all. You both have a point. Additionally... there are, undoubtedly, people who will need to use jacketed bullets out of cost consideration... and it may be desireable to have the choice of, if not optimal, at least increased performance.

I will do it for the 30, and 338. If the response justifies expanding this approach, I will take on additional calibers.

Drop me an e-mail.

Best,
Noel
 
Re: Projectiles & New Systems

Dave,

A 7mm 6.5 caliber long bullet is in the works, but it will require an ~1:5.5" exit twist from a gain-twist barrel.

If you can convince a few people to coordinate an order for standard twist projectiles, I will make whatever you want.

-Noel
 
Re: Projectiles & New Systems

GM2,

Yes I do, and they are based on the G7 drag model. You would cry if I told you what they were... not very impressive, but then all the published G1 "BC's" would suffer under that revision.

I will simply tell you that mine are, at minimum, equal to the best among engraving band projectiles, and superior to the other bullet styles of equal mass.

Shoot them, and you tell me what the "BC" is.

Best,
Noel
 
Re: Projectiles & New Systems

Whether this advance succeeds will depend mostly one whether or not this product can capture the mainstream market.

Price points are key.

Whether or not the product is better is less important than whether the improvement is viewed as worth the cost by enough of the market to allow the <span style="font-style: italic">marketer</span> to secure a significant share of that market. Niche or boutiqe manufcaturers have no probem with making good products, they succeed or fail on whether or not an adequate segment of the market will actually part with their money.

Anyone can sell to individuals, and if that's all they sell to, they will fail. They need to reach and secure distributers; who in turn, need ro reach and secure retailers. That's when success blooms.

Don't go after the individual customer. Go after the retailers, and get them to go after the distributers. Customers need to see the product performing in <span style="font-style: italic">their</span> world. Product advocates need to operate in that world. That's when the individual customers pester their retailers, and that's when the marketing wheel truly begins to turn.

Greg
 
Re: Projectiles & New Systems

Noel

7mm 6.5 calibers long . . . 1.846" +/- long (my 180 bergers are "only" 1.525"). Now I understand the need for a 5.5" twist.

DeboDave PM so we can coordinate something that will shoot in a 9 twist; I am interested in a 7mm pill that I can use out of my 7WSM while awaiting my 7mm ELR rig for teh ultra-long bullets.

JeffVN

 
Re: Projectiles & New Systems

Greg,

"...success depends on capturing the market... <span style="font-style: italic">price points are key </span> ."

Herein is the rub; "They (I) need to reach, and secure <span style="font-style: italic">distributors </span> ... Product advocates need to operate in <span style="font-style: italic">that </span> world."...

I am in absolute agreement that the worst thing I could do is price these projectiles beyond the grasp of those most capable of effectively utilizing them. This project will rise, or fall, based on my efforts to keep prices as low as possible.

Realistically, aside from military application, the niche will always be somewhat limited for engraving band bullets... it is the nature of the beast. They cannot be <span style="font-style: italic">manufactured </span> for the <span style="font-style: italic">retail </span> cost of a Barnes, or Berger equivalent.

Down to packaging, and shipping, I must be constantly aware that the best marksman are average Americans, with the same concerns that would drive my economic choices. Intermediate price mark-ups are antithetical to my vision of success. That said, I am not a marketing guy. I would be very open to any imput you may have Greg. E-mail me.

Of general information, I will not be much of a presence on this thread during the work week. Please direct broad questions to Later, and use my e-mail for specifics. I will respond in evenings.

Best,
Noel



 
Re: Projectiles & New Systems

It is my understanding that if the twist isn't fast enough to stabilize the bullet, stability and accuracy will suffer (as in potentially tumbling or yawing wildly through teh air), and it will very likely not work as well as a sierra matchking or Berger jacketed bullet.

JeffVN
 
Re: Projectiles & New Systems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GM2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so if my twist rate isnt fast enough, will the projectile still work better than a Seirra matchking or equivalent? </div></div>

GM2: Am I understanding your question correctly in that you are asking that if your barrel twist in not fast enough will these solids work better than SMK?????
I am kinda confused with that question if thats what your referring to. That would almost be like asking if a 12 twist for .223 will stabilize the 80gr SMK. If the twist is not correct then no projectile will work no matter what make/kind it is.

Thanks
 
Re: Projectiles & New Systems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blawton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you have any prints on these bullets that i could look at?</div></div>

Is this Bobby??

Thanks
 
Re: Projectiles & New Systems

Well first let me say my prayers are with your father and your family!!!

Secondly-- Welcome to the hide, nice to have you here.

Third--send me a PM with a contact number and I will give you a call. Not sure what type of "prints" you looking for.

Thanks


 
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