Pro's / Con's of barrel flutes

Bamf911

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Minuteman
Feb 13, 2010
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NC, Piedmont Area
It makes sense to me that fluting the barrel would make the rig lighter by removing some metal weight. Does it serve any other purpose besides that? Is the process enough to make a barrel less rigid?

Thanks
Henry
 
Re: Pro's / Con's of barrel flutes

Well it does make it lighter.

But to answer your question:

Let's take a standard Rem 700 Varmint barrel 308 caliber, with a nominal muzzle diameter of .830". and 26" long.

Un-fluted weight: 4.78 lbs
Fluted weight: 4.27 lbs

The un-fluted barrel will be stiffer than the fluted one, but heavier.

The fluted barrel weighs just a little more than Pac-Nor #5 contour (.700" @ muzzle 4.15lbs) but will be stiffer than the un-fluted #5.

I used this utility for the comparison's:

Pac-Nor Barrel weight calculator
 
Re: Pro's / Con's of barrel flutes

I probably should read the referenced thread first as it is likely already mentioned there.

Fluting will also increase surface area thereby helping to dissipate heat. But some barrel manufacturers will NOT warranty their barrel if it is fluted.
 
Re: Pro's / Con's of barrel flutes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CamoWildcat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I probably should read the referenced thread first as it is likely already mentioned there.

Fluting will also increase surface area thereby helping to dissipate heat. <span style="font-weight: bold">But some barrel manufacturers will NOT warranty their barrel if it is fluted.</span> </div></div>

Camo,

Your right, but you did not complete the thought. Some barrel makers will NOT warranty their barrel, if it is fluted after the fact, by a third party.

Most barrel makers offer fluting as an additional service, and WILL warranty their barrel, if the fluting is done by them at the time the barrel is cut.....
 
Re: Pro's / Con's of barrel flutes

there is a huge quantifier when talking about the stiffness of a fluted barrel vs a non fluted barrel. Flutes do not make the barrel stiffer but at the same time, a fluted barrel will b stiffer than a barrel of the same WEIGHT (assuming contour and all are the same) because it is thicker. Therefore, flutes allow you to get the same amount of thickness and consequently stiffness without all the weight that accompanies it. Also, there is perhaps something to be said about the fact that there is more surface area and therefore it cools off quicker but unless you're really blazing away this is a negligible point especially seeing as it will heat up quicker than a barrel that is heavier anyway. On one hand you get a quicker cool down time on the other, it takes longer to heat up. in the end really doenst change much
 
Re: Pro's / Con's of barrel flutes

Thanks for the correction, BobinNC. I'm not sure, but I think there is also a barrel manufacturer that refuses to flute. I think it is due to the stresses induced during the fluting process.
 
Re: Pro's / Con's of barrel flutes

that could be. Also, as you mentioned earlier some void the warranty when you flute. This is most likely because if you cut flutes to deep, the pressure in the barrel could become to great and therefore cause the barrel to fail. since they dont have control over how deep or how any given gunsmith (other than their own) flutes barrels, this is probably smart on their part.
 
Re: Pro's / Con's of barrel flutes

I agree with chrisj, it is valuable in that you can get rid of weight without completely sacrificing accuracy. IMO its a great thing to do to hunting rifles which you will being carrying but i wouldnt have it done to a target/varmint/tactical rifle where every last bit of accuracy counts.
 
Re: Pro's / Con's of barrel flutes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CamoWildcat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the correction, BobinNC. I'm not sure, but I think there is also a barrel manufacturer that refuses to flute. I think it is due to the stresses induced during the fluting process. </div></div>

That is Shilen. I was just on their website and they have a FAQ page where barrel fluting is addressed.

read here: http://www.shilen.com/faq.html#question8

-Z
 
Re: Pro's / Con's of barrel flutes

So I guess my GAP Surgeon is fucked....time for a re-barrell, damn you Bartlein!

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Re: Pro's / Con's of barrel flutes

I think the problem with fluting is more related to the method of rifling (cut-rifled vs button-rifled). From what I've read, cut rifled barrels don't suffer ill effects from fluting. Consider this from Lilja's website:

<span style="font-weight: bold">"Q: Does fluting cause stress in a barrel?

A: We've been asked if machining flutes into a rifle barrel causes stress in the steel. The short answer is no, it does not. There are some operations in the manufacture of a rifle barrel that can cause stress to develop in the steel, but fluting is not one of them. To the contrary, fluting can and will relieve stress if it is already present. The same is true of any outside machining work performed on a barrel.

The type of stress that can exist in a barrel is called compressive stress. Under normal conditions the stress could form from two processes. When steel is manufactured, the round shape is formed through a rolling operation in the steel mill. This forming can be performed either hot or cold. Cold rolling generates a great deal of internal stress in the steel. Usually, with steel used for rifle barrels, this stress is relieved by heating the steel to just below its transformation or critical temperature. We have the steel mill that makes our steel do this as their very last operation, ensuring us that the steel is stress free when we receive it.

Secondly, <span style="color: #009900">stress can be formed in a rifle barrel during a cold forming operation, such as button rifling. Since no material is removed from the barrel when the rifling is formed, rather it is displaced, it causes compressive stress in the steel. If this stress is not removed, through a heat treating operation, it will remain in the steel where it can cause other problems. Any subsequent machining operations, such as turning the outside diameter of the barrel, will allow some of those stresses to come out</span>. The result can be an opening of the inside diameter of the barrel, more so towards the muzzle where more material is machined away. It can and probably will also cause the barrel to warp. And if these aren't enough, the temporary heating and cooling of the barrel that occurs during normal firing will also let the stress come out by warping the barrel. Poor accuracy is the result.

Although a barrel would not normally be welded on, this can also cause stresses to form in steel. At times though, gunsmiths will heat barrels to sweat-on barrel bands and sites. Too much heat can cause some problems as well.

But, the fact remains that normal machining operations, such as outside turning, fluting, drilling and tapping site holes, etc. do not cause or introduce stress. They can and do allow residual stresses to come out of the steel though.

We flute about 50 rifle barrels per month and have never had a problem with our barrels related to fluting"</span>
 
Re: Pro's / Con's of barrel flutes

That's funny I personally think a barrel looks "unfinished" and cheap without the flutes.

That said I don't really think they serve any purpose unless of course you have a weight restriction and are trying to get a stiffer larger dia. barrel at the same weight as a smaller dia. non-fluted barrel. It's also kind of scary to have done just because it seems if it's not done right it can mess up a perfectly good barrel. I'd only have fluting done by the company making the barrel who was confident it would not affect it's accuracy.
 
Re: Pro's / Con's of barrel flutes

Got something to sell Cooper? Multiple posts one after the other? Lots of posts over the past few days like that. How about stopping it.
 
Re: Pro's / Con's of barrel flutes

Here's my take:

Some early posts nailed the main advantage: fluting makes the barrel stiffer per pound of barrel. For example: take two barrels of the same weight and length, one fluted and one not. The fluted barrel will be stiffer, therefore more accurate in theory because it can have a larger outside contour for the same weight. Think I-beam in construction.

Now take two barrels equal in stiffness, if one could measure and quantify stiffness, the fluted barrel will weigh less.

Finally, take two barrels of equal contour, but one fluted and one not, the non-fluted barrel will be stiffer but weigh more.

The second reason to flute a barrel is to increase the surface area of the barrel to the air, therefore speeding the cooling of the barrel when it gets hot.

The third reason to flute a barrel probably sells more fluted barrels that the other two combined: it increases the overall CDI factor ot the rifle. CDI factor: "chicks dig it". It is simply an aesthetic feature that makes the rifle more visually appealing to some.

Just my observations from the field.

Semper fi,
 
Re: Pro's / Con's of barrel flutes

AG-
<span style="font-style: italic">
"The fluted barrel will be stiffer, therefore more accurate in theory because it can have a larger outside contour for the same weight. "</span>

This is something that I have less and less confidence in as time goes on. Accuracy and barrel weight are less important than harmonics, and this is shown time and time again in the Rimfire BR game where harmonics are actively tuned.

The centerfire game has taken a different approach that works... sorta.

The approach being that you make it so incredibly stiff that the amplitude of the first 3 modes are small and therefore less important.

That makes sense, but it also makes load tuning significantly more critical. A low frequency barrel has big, fat, wide nodes to hit with a load and it's much easier to find a wide accuracy node with a light contour than it is a heavy contour from my experience. This gets us far down the rabbit hole into the theories of optimal bore transit times and an entire textbook could be written on the topic, so it's hardly going to be hashed from start to finish on a forum post, but suffice it to say, that OBT has some serious merit.

Regarding the surface area comments, please see my explanations in the link that I posted above, it's too long to rewrite, but the behavior that you are claiming exists is not there for the reason you think it is.

Regarding stiffness quantification, this can be done with some relatively simple match, though, can you tell me WHICH stiffness you're referring to? This is like people referring to the Center of Pressure of a bullet during flight. Which one? There are multiple CP's just as there are multiple K's of a body. It's like a nice fuzzy blanket to refer to stiffness but it's mostly a fluff observation because without discussing WHICH CP or WHICH K value we're focused upon it means nothing.

Which one(s) matter and should be tuned for the rifle to shoot?

This can also be quantified, however the math is significantly more involved and require some state space mapping to get a transfer function setup for the comparison and variable isolation.
 
Re: Pro's / Con's of barrel flutes

Bohem,

Thanks for the physics lesson. Admittedly, I did not read your earlier post from the older forum before posting myself. I cannot argue with any of your posts. I would like to qualify my post:

1. Fluted barrels will be stiffer per pound, does this stiffness equate in increased accuracy? Conventional theory would say yes. Does stiffness equal increased accuracy in the actual application? Maybe not. If stiffness of any kind, or ridgidity, had less effect on accuracy than we thought, why do the benchresters have incredibly heavy barrels, if not for stiffness? I will defer to your expertise.

As an aside, referring to quantifying stiffness of any kind, I will agree that it is possible to measure and quantify. Maybe not as easily for the average, or above average, experienced shooter who does not have a physics or engineering degree.

2. By simply increasing surface area should speed cooling. Again, conventional thinking applied to the barrel flutes as radiator cooling fins. If the dynamics of the airflow across the specific contours changes this heat transfer, again, I'll defer to your engineering experience. Agreed on faster heating and faster cooling because of mass. Is it a wash? Perhaps.

3. As far as reasons to flute a barrel, I think that the aesthetic appeal of the flutes is the one that has the most influence on purchasers. Followed second by weight reduction for a given barrel length and contour. Once we get lost in discussions of heat transfer, state space mapping, and the multiple Ks of a body, unless your background is physics and engineering, it likely comes back to consumer appeal. Certainly there are shooters who appreciate the science behind the mechanics of accurate rifles. I am one of them, as likely are most of the participants in forums like this.

While I do not have the technical background that you exhibit, I am very interested in the technical application and performance of features on rifles, particularly as they apply to accuracy. My observations are from conventional reasoning and field applications. Again, I appreciate your technical expertise and insights.

Semper fidelis,
 
Re: Pro's / Con's of barrel flutes

AG-

The "stiffer is better" mentality I have pushed away from is based on the idea that more mass in the barrel will increase the number of shots before temperature change effects show up, as well as the idea that pencil thin barrels for a long time were shown to shoot a few shots well but then they'd walk, this is why the BR shooters are pushing for stiffer and stiffer behavior. This stems from back in the day when barrel manufacturing technology was no where near as good as it is now and having the extra mass meant that successive shots could be taken before heat induced stresses caused problems on the barrel.

It works to a limit. Polar moment of inertia increases at a 4th order rate on a cylinder of given length, mass increases at a 2nd order rate on a given length.

For most behavior the torsional stiffness is not particularly important as the loads running torsionally through the barrel are very low compared to bending harmonic behavior. It still matters, but it's not as big of an effect as the bending harmonics of the barrel.

So, looking at the bending stiffness (K_b) of barrel we want to look at the natural frequency of it. Natural frequency is

sqrt(K_b/mass)

This is important in looking at the "whip" behavior of a barrel. The BR guys will tune loads in between strings as they shoot a match. This is highly impractical for tactical matches or field combat work. Instead, many of the experienced shooters and ammunition companies look for a load that shoots over a broad range of temperature, barometric pressure, etc. so that it has a highly repeatable behavior in all sorts of conditions.

Everything changes with temperature: Bore diameter, speed of sound, powder burn rate, everything in some way changes (even if it's a little bit).

So, therefore, the governing idea for a rifle that's going to be used in all sorts of conditions with a bespoke ammunition build needs to be tolerant of the little changes in behavior.

Making a barrel extremely stiff and light, therefore pushing the natural frequency very high now makes the ammunition tuning extremely important to continue shooting well. Hence the reason that many short and long range BR guys spend thousands of rounds tuning loads under all sorts of conditions and many sit at the bench and load between strings.

If the barrel is kept to a lower natural frequency the "whip" behavior motion now has bigger amplitudes but the time it spends at the "crest" or "trough" of the wave is longer. Much like watching rollers vs. chop on a lake. You want the bullet to exit the bore at the peak or trough of the amplitude behavior each time to increase the repeatability.

If you're tuning the load to sit on top/bottom of a big, smooth "roller" it is probably not too difficult to visualize how that's easier than trying to tune something to sit on the top/bottom of the "chop".

Keep in mind that the barrel doesn't only whip in a vertical plane but in a horizontal plane, a plane that is somewhere between the vertical and horizontal, and others. This is called "coupled behavior" and the modal shapes change in each plane. Decoupling completely is impossible but repeatable behavior can be tuned for consistency in a large range of conditions. Lowering the natural frequency of the system to tune the behavior is beneficial in this case.

Similar concept as to why the old Crossley 35 Formula Ford chassis cars are still extremely fast with bumpy circuits, the soft chassis soak up the ripples and grip can be maintained. Running something very stiff in that scenario will end up with broken suspension pieces, beat up drivers and lap times that are seemingly "off". LimeRock Park, CT in 2006 was a perfect example of this. The Crossley 35, 55, 65 cars were running in the 54's & 55's (Mike Rand) and the high speed, low drag cars were in the very high 53's, and 54's.

It was repaved in 2008 (I think, memory is clouding) and the Crossleys didn't change pace much but the Swifts started cutting laps in the 52's overnight.

On to the cooling effects and comparing radiator fins to a fluted barrel.

The L/t (length/thickness or aspect ratio) value of a barrel flute is very low compared to a radiator fin. Radiator fins work well with a high aspect ratio, something in excess of 10 but modern radiators run L/t's in the 35-50 range for the highly effective cooling.

The equations that govern the behavior can be found in just about any Heat and Mass Transfer text.

Since the barrel flute L/t ratio is closer to 0.5-1 they're extremely inefficient that way.

The heat source in the barrel is at the bore and the exterior of the barrel must see the conducted heat from the bore and then radiate and convect it off to the air around it. Cutting flutes into the barrel allows the mass between the bore and air surface to be removed.

This is highly technical and you're right, when you get deep into the frequency tuning, optimal transit time theory and heat transfer many folks get lost. It's beyond their understanding and it really doesn't matter for about 99.9% of the shooting community, it can be made to work better than they can shoot so I try not to push someone one way or another.

Generally, my feeling is this:

If the fluted barrel look is something that appeals to your eye and you're paying the tab on a rifle build then have at it. I personally see it as an expense which does not increase the performance of my weapon platform so I forgo the cost and send it into the fund for the cost of a new barrel when the first one is shot out.
 
Re: Pro's / Con's of barrel flutes

Avoid fluting if you don't have to have it. Process of cutting flutes induces add'l stress on barrel steel. In my view, it's just one more variable that's not worth adding to the equation unless you REALLY need it to make weight for some competitive class.

-David
Edgewood, NM
 
Re: Pro's / Con's of barrel flutes

Varmint Al covers the topic very well, note that his calculations supported what I said about increasing the barrel natural frequency given a specific weight and length barrel.

LS_Dyna is an excellent code for this approach, I've used it along with a couple of others. My personal preference is ABAQUS but that's due to the user interface being much nicer to deal with IMO.

I've got a few questions regarding how the dispersion model was assumed/calculated. Hopefully he'll reply to my query on the website.
 
Re: Pro's / Con's of barrel flutes

Bohem,

Agreed. While the things we "chase" to the nth degree may not matter in reality to 99.9% of shooters, the fact is, I see a lot of fluted barrels on the line. For what ever reason, it is popular. I just think the reason for this popularity is "visual performance". There is nothing wrong with that in my opinion. If the market wants ham sandwiches, you make ham sandwiches.

Semper,
 
Re: Pro's / Con's of barrel flutes

Stop the stifness BS Please!. Even if bbl were stiffer when fluted there is absolutely No evidence that a bbl is any more accurate when fluted. I have been on the firing line in many highpwer X-course, long range prone, smallbore matches and know quite a few benchrest shooters and I RARELY ever see a fluted bbl. How many countries' sniper rifles come with fluted bbls? If you like the way it looks, that's cool, but don't tell me the rifle is any more accurate with a fluted bbl.

P.S. I have owned fluted bbls for 2 reasons...

1) The bbl was already fluted when I purchased the rifle.

2) I wanted to cut the weight of my 30" target bbls without reducing the diameter.

But I must admit that the fluted bbls do have a 'cool factor" to them in the looks dept!
 
Re: Pro's / Con's of barrel flutes

Good stuff.

I just had Jon (Beanland) build one with a fluted barrel, but the only reason was weight.

It does seem to improve the balance/feel of the rifle (in my opinion).

I have similar, earlier builds (GAP, KMW, and others) with fluted barrels that work well.

Also have some rifles with un-fluted barrels that feel barrel-heavy (reckon I just need to cut them off some).