Will compete in my first match in two weeks. Do not yet have a chronograph or a kestrel. Are these available to everyone at each match? Are other shooters willing to share their kestrel info at least? Thanks!
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Can you borrow a chronograph? It's best to start with a good velocity and true data from there. You can absolutely get started without those two pieces of kit though. Get a decent ballistic app on your phone and you'll be fine. IF you feel the need to have a kestrel reading, I've found most shooters more than willing to help you out with whatever info you might need. A kestrel is a good tool that most shooters end up owning, but you can 100% get started without it. I have a kestrel but never use it, I prefer "Shooter" phone app for simplicity and intuitiveness. Hornady has an app that is free that works pretty damn good too.
Someone at the match will have a magnetospeed, labradar, or garmin, chronograph available. It's not needed to immediately go out and buy it. I would invest in one. The magnetospeed v3 will be the more affordable of the three brands I just mentioned, and you will eventually need to buy one sooner, rather than later.
I went many years before investing in a Kestrel however. Again, someone at the range has a kestrel that can quickly be linked to your phone for the weather. Some apps such as ballistic AE can gather weather info from the internet. It's not exact, but It will get the job done.
I went many years before investing in a Kestrel however. Again, someone at the range has a kestrel that can quickly be linked to your phone for the weather. Some apps such as ballistic AE can gather weather info from the internet. It's not exact, but It will get the job done.
Thank you both! I trained for a day with Bryan Sikes here in Kansas City, and he had a Garmin Xero C1 Pro that measured muzzle velocity at 2,813 FPS. I just don't know if that will still be true after cleaning my rifle (not enough experience with this). I'm using Hornady ELD Match ammo and their 4DOF app. I'll look into the other app's for temp, humidity, and barometric pressure.
Temp can be had from lots of places; I use a combination of my truck’s thermometer, a couple weather reports, and a cheapo Kestrel (way simpler and cheaper than the 5700 Elite).
Honestly just a NOAA forecast for your shooting location is enough for temp. Update the temp in your ballistic solver at lunch time and right before a long-range stage (800+ yards in centerfire, 170+ in rimfire).
My phone has a barometer onboard, I use that for pressure.
Humidity can be set at 50% and left alone unless you’re shooting ELR; prove this to yourself by seeing how much it matters when you change it in your solver.
Now is a great time to buy a magnetospeed or labradar. A lot of guys are moving to the garmin and prices are low on the others. If you have the money the garmin sounds great, I’m a poor so I went with a barely used magnetospeed 
Yes it will still be true for all practical purposes.
Understand this:
- Ammunition has variation
- Chronographs (like all measuring instruments) have errors
Make me any reasonable offer. I’d rather see this go to a “new” shooter than have it sit in my basement.
Reloading Equipment - Magnetospeed v3 with Wiser Mount $250
Good condition. Early-gen wiser mount that is all 3D printed. Does include arca adapter and pic clamp. Has always worked reliably. $250 shipped.
www.snipershide.com First match? You don’t need a chrono or a kestrel.
Rifle/scope
2x 10 round mags
Bipod
Rear bag
Enough ammo to complete the course + extra to confirm zero that day.
A bag to carry your stuff
(Sling?)
(Chamber Flag?)
Good attitude
At your first match, you’re not going to place high enough to worry about anything other than; safely entering and exiting shooting positions, finding targets under time constraints, building a satisfactory shooting position, not getting DQ’d, and having a bit of fun.
Someone might let you shoot over their chrono, if they have it set up. But, it’s not really necessary.
Wind calls will likely be floating on the breeze like confetti. Listen and you can get good Intel. A newb can generally just ask a seasoned guy for his wind calls. You may eventually want a kestrel, but it’s not really needed. Funny(ish) story about wind…
I was ROing the Best in Texas PRS event a few years ago. It was one of the longer stages and we had had a ton of rain over the past few weeks. The target was standing in water, and the farmer’s field beyond was a couple hundred acre pond. One guy in particular was having hell hitting the target. After the stage he came up to me and asked where his rounds were going…
“Oh, yeah, your shots were all falling right of the target.”
“WTF, I was aiming right of the target.”
“Well, there’s your problem. What direction is the wind blowing out there?
“Awe fuck…”
Even without glass, you could clearly see the wind blowing a left==>right ripple on the pond. But, the lay of the land caused that wind to run up hill to the shooting position and apparently change direction. Those that shot that range often already knew that the wind virtually always blows left to right across the field. But, the guys relying on their gadgets and not their eyes were tricked.
All of that is to say that your first competition is an opportunity to learn. Very rarely is it an opportunity to win…
Rifle/scope
2x 10 round mags
Bipod
Rear bag
Enough ammo to complete the course + extra to confirm zero that day.
A bag to carry your stuff
(Sling?)
(Chamber Flag?)
Good attitude
At your first match, you’re not going to place high enough to worry about anything other than; safely entering and exiting shooting positions, finding targets under time constraints, building a satisfactory shooting position, not getting DQ’d, and having a bit of fun.
Someone might let you shoot over their chrono, if they have it set up. But, it’s not really necessary.
Wind calls will likely be floating on the breeze like confetti. Listen and you can get good Intel. A newb can generally just ask a seasoned guy for his wind calls. You may eventually want a kestrel, but it’s not really needed. Funny(ish) story about wind…
I was ROing the Best in Texas PRS event a few years ago. It was one of the longer stages and we had had a ton of rain over the past few weeks. The target was standing in water, and the farmer’s field beyond was a couple hundred acre pond. One guy in particular was having hell hitting the target. After the stage he came up to me and asked where his rounds were going…
“Oh, yeah, your shots were all falling right of the target.”
“WTF, I was aiming right of the target.”
“Well, there’s your problem. What direction is the wind blowing out there?
“Awe fuck…”
Even without glass, you could clearly see the wind blowing a left==>right ripple on the pond. But, the lay of the land caused that wind to run up hill to the shooting position and apparently change direction. Those that shot that range often already knew that the wind virtually always blows left to right across the field. But, the guys relying on their gadgets and not their eyes were tricked.
All of that is to say that your first competition is an opportunity to learn. Very rarely is it an opportunity to win…
I thought of something else I wanted to add for newer shooters. Do not shoot the same miss twice! I've seen this countless times with new shooters and even some not so new shooters. They shoot at a target, miss, and continue to hold the same spot and keep shooting. IF you break a clean smooth shot and it doesn't hit, try something different on the next one.
What match are you shooting?
Everyone loves a good confirmation miss.
I fought buying a kestrel for to long, the apps are really good but now that I've had the kestrel I'll never go back.
I will say the apps are easier to use but they don't do everything you need.
I will say the apps are easier to use but they don't do everything you need.
One of the most common refrains from my son’s shotgun coach was “miss differently…”
Respectfully, I’ll disagree somewhat with this. Lots of great info in this post, my one counterpoint would be that you DO need valid data at long distance. Now, there are several ways to do this, and the simplest is:
1) Get a free solver such as Hornady Ballistics or GeoBallistics
2) Set up your gun in the solver correctly (twist, sight height over bore, and zero distance of 100 yds are the main inputs here)
3) Grab the BC of the bullet off the box or the internet and input it
4) Ask on here what a reasonable MV is for your cartridge and barrel length (helps if you tell us who made the barrel too, Tikka factory barrels are quite slow) and input it
5) Zero the gun at 100 yds
6) Find a target at known distance out at 600-700 yards, dial what your solver says for it, and try to shoot it
7) Adjust your MV in the solver for where you hit
Ask someone for help on #6 and #7. You want to do these steps anyway even if you get a chrono MV; it's far more important that your solver is made to match where your bullet actually goes. Honestly you should probably ask for help setting up the solver; there's a lot of inputs in there.
I can't count the number of times my sporting clays coach would tell me GD miss it in front!
We were at nationals one year, maybe 2021? And one of the stations had what appeared to be a target screaming from left to right. I was able to watch a couple of squads shoot the station and most were having fits with this one target. Occasionally, I’d see someone hit, and knock the front edge off the bird. Hmmm. I turned it my son and told him that everyone is misreading the bird and missing in front. He said he had already made the same conclusion.
We get up there and the station RO says “Be careful of this bird. Everyone’s been missing behind it.” I said “are you sure?” She said “ yes, I saw the wads behind the target.” Uh uh.
Hey son. “Yeah, dad, I know she’s full of shit.”
He didn’t clean that station, I don’t think, but he didn’t miss that bird.
“Hey, how’d you shoot that target?”
“Oh, easy. I tried to miss behind it…”
"The wad" I used to shoot with this guy who was very street smart but completely uneducated. They kind that would believe any idiotic conspiracy theory that came down the pike, you know the type.
There was no way I could make him understand that the way the wad flies bears zero relationship to where the shot went in relation to the target. I'd eventually just smile at him and tell him "whatever you say, Glen"....
I would disagree with half of that. You don't need a Kestrel but you do need to know your velocity to put into your ballistic program to get on target. Nothing is more frustrating to new shooters than throwing rounds out there and not having even halfway decent data. If you can get chrono data then you can go and have fun.
He doesn't need a chrono at the match
He sure as hell needs one before the match, unless he can gather elevation dope at different distances beyond the typical 100 yards.
Yeah, we're all on the same page here. He already has a velocity of 2813. He doesn't need to shoot over a chrono the day of the match in order to do as well as a first timer should expect.
For the first handfulI of matches I shot, I just manually inputed the temp and elevation and into the 4DOF app. Leaving the humidity at 50% at all times. That, along with a good muzzle velocity, and you’ll be fine. 4DOF has always been right on for me while using Hornady bullets.
Don’t overthink it. Get to the match early so you have plenty of time to get organized and sign in.
Check zero, plug in your current muzzle velocity and then shoot a confirmation target at 500 to a 1000 yards, if available. If something is off, I’m sure there’s a shooter nearby with a Garmin he’d let you use.
Don’t overthink it. Get to the match early so you have plenty of time to get organized and sign in.
Check zero, plug in your current muzzle velocity and then shoot a confirmation target at 500 to a 1000 yards, if available. If something is off, I’m sure there’s a shooter nearby with a Garmin he’d let you use.
New shooters? Shit we still do that when the brain goes into dumb dumb mode on the clock.
Assuming your barrel is broken in (200 rounds or so, could be more) you should not see a big variation in muzzle velocity going from clean to dirty as long as the ammo is the same.
Almost everyone at the match will have a chrono. Just ask someone and I couldn't imagine someone saying no. Ask someone with a garmin , not a magneto speed since they take alot more work to setup.
Hornady 4DOF is free and a really good solver that is easy to use. You can pull environmental from weather.com or just ask someone with a Kestral to share info. Even a 40 degree swing in temps from the AM to PM is not going to be a huge difference is elevation change, Maybe a tenth or two at most. Just make sure all your inputs are correct. Know your Bore height (center of chamber to center of rings), Twist rate, make sure aero jump and spin drift are enabled. When it comes to solvers, shit in shit out. One bad variable can dick everything up, so make sure everything is correct as you can make it.
Let the guys know you are new and want help and people will most likely be falling over each other to help. Guys in this sport are really welcoming of newer shooters and want to help them out. Embrace this and try to absorb as much as possible.
Make sure you are watching other people shoot and watching on glass. You can learn so much just seeing how people approach a stage.
Just go out with no expectations, expect to do really really bad, get frustrated, flustered and know EVERYONE goes through that. As you shoot more matches the comfort level raises as you know what to expect. Don't get mad and just keep in mind everyone starts from the bottom and its part of the rights of passage in the sport. Try to have fun, absorb as much as you can and be safe. Safety is #1 so go slow and deliberate.
Na. with 4DOF or AB using G7/CDM you rarely need to gather dope. Its good practice but both solvers are going to be almost dead on.
Most people having to true a bunch of shit have bad variables somewhere. Usually its bad BC's they are using from the manufacture instead of the true BC from places like Hornady or AB.
For a new shooter, gathering dope via shooting is one of the last things to worry about. Its not 1992.
If he's new it's likely the best way for him to verify he's got good inputs. Find the farthest target you can and make sure your solver matches real world.
When you ask for other shooter's wind, ask them what "wind speed" worked for them, NOT what they dialed for wind. Then use that wind speed in your ballistics app. For example, last weekend I was shooting a 6.5mm gas gun running at 2,712 fps with a 140gr bullet. It makes no sense for me to ask someone running a 6mm BRA at 2,850 fps what they dialed. Good luck!
“Hey man, great shooting. Uh, what was your wind?”
“I dunno. I just held edge of plate and sent it…”
You misread what I said. If you have zero idea of what your MV is, software is worthless.
In that case, your only realistic way of getting dope is to go shoot at 100 yd intervals with a thumbrule like that rifle math thing that was floating around here somewhere.
But I missed the fact that he had an MV already. He can go online and make himself a dope card for the first match and worry about all the other shit later on.
LOL.
Even if you had to make a correction to your wind call you should be going back to your kestrel and figuring out what the actual wind speed was to help with the wind call on the next stage.
Exactly! But, when you get good at this, you can take that info, measure the plate, use the distance from edge to center (assuming they were center punching the plate) and come up with the wind that shooter was using. This all sounds great in a chat on snipershide, but when you're in the match, you'll be so busy that you'll just hold edge of plate and pray!
Would you look at that? Never knew my iPhone had the humidity and a barometer. Thanks KK256!
This brings up another good question: if you miss a target should you use that info to take a second shot at the same target, OR should you use that info as you move on to the next target. I don't find this in the rules, but I'm guessing that you only get ONE shot at each target.
Most targets will be at least 2 rounds. yes use your miss to make a correction, and yes translate that info to the next target and even stage
Thanks Pirate, should I expect to encounter a moving target at each match, or is that at the discretion of the Match Director?
That will depend on the stage whether it's a hit to move or move no matter what or if it's two shots on each target etc. You should always take your actual info observed and use it for the next target as long as wind is coming in the same direction.
You’ll probably have targets you shoot 2-3 times and others that are only once. I’m not familiar with matches in your area but that’s how most go from my experience. Definitely watch your misses AND hits to use that information on the rest of your targets
Movers will depend more on the range as not all ranges have a mover.
That's my main concern. I know I'm OK for the first 600 yards, but I've never shot out to 1,000 or 1,200.
You will. LOL Put good data in the program and watch impacts and adjust.
Mine doesn't have humidity, the cheapo Kestrel does, but my phone does have the barometer. I do update it, at the beginning of the day and right before I pull dope on a long-bomb stage. It's easy data to get, so I figure I might as well put it in there. Humidity is more inconvenient, and has almost zero effect at typical PRS distances, so I rarely update it. If I happen to have the Kestrel out for awhile reading wind, the temp and humidity readings should be pretty good, so I'll go ahead and grab them from the device at that time.
Good luck out there!
That's my main concern. I know I'm OK for the first 600 yards, but I've never shot out to 1,000 or 1,200.
I'll probably be OK with the info available to me. I'm using 4DOF on my iPhone. I'll eventually learn how to interpret what I'm seeing with each shot. I appreciate all of the information here. Thank you all!
LOL @ gathering dope is last thing for new shooter.
It's literally almost the only way to make sure the inputs in software are correct (the other being an experienced person with the software looking over it, but someone can always overlook something).
Otherwise, you'll have a new shooter at a match with bad dope and zero idea why it's not working. Then you'll have 8 different shooters giving him 5 different opinions on why he's missing. And no one will have any clue if its fundamentals or software.
Verifying dope takes 15min. Unless shooter doesn't have much access at all to distances out to 800+, it's a terrible idea to skip verifying dope until they are comfortable with the software.
Not to mention, many new shooters will have an issue/s with their fundamentals that will cause shots to consistently be high or low. Obviously the right answer is to correct those asap. However, a shooter with proper dope (be it fundamental issue or not) hitting more targets keeps them interested and that will in turn incentivize them to get better.
It's literally almost the only way to make sure the inputs in software are correct (the other being an experienced person with the software looking over it, but someone can always overlook something).
Otherwise, you'll have a new shooter at a match with bad dope and zero idea why it's not working. Then you'll have 8 different shooters giving him 5 different opinions on why he's missing. And no one will have any clue if its fundamentals or software.
Verifying dope takes 15min. Unless shooter doesn't have much access at all to distances out to 800+, it's a terrible idea to skip verifying dope until they are comfortable with the software.
Not to mention, many new shooters will have an issue/s with their fundamentals that will cause shots to consistently be high or low. Obviously the right answer is to correct those asap. However, a shooter with proper dope (be it fundamental issue or not) hitting more targets keeps them interested and that will in turn incentivize them to get better.
Yep, agreed. If you don't have valid data, you're really not playing the game, you're just wasting ammo and getting frustrated. Same story in my opinion as a busted scope, loose action screws, stripped scope ring screws, all of those mechanical issues.
It is bare minimum to have fully functional equipment, somewhere in the 1 MOA range or better, and in my opinion that includes ballistic solver info that is reliable out to the longest target ranges.
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Not sure where you shoot but that is a vast minority of ranges where you get to shoot to the farthest target range. Most you get a 100 yard zero range and go. You might get a few hundred yards if lucky. Some do train ups prior to the match which would be good for a new shooter. A good ballistic program and inputs will usually get you on target if you don't have that option.
Also, while on the subject, skipping small things in general is how you end up dropping points or entire matches due to simple things you could haven take all of about 20min to do.
Prior to every match, among other things I do the following every single time:
- Break rifle completely down and clean. Including removing barrel
- Assemble rifle and torque everything down properly. Loosen and retorque scope rings
- Foul barrel and zero
- 30-45 build and break positional shots at 100yds. No more than 2 shots each position. Adjust zero ever 10-15 shots. You'll get a ton of good practice as well as a very solid zero across all positions
- Verify dope at 300, 600, 800, 1k on waterlines
Once I started using the above process I never again experienced any issues with zero, dope, or equipment failures.
Some will consider the rifle breakdown, cleaning, and torque to be above and beyond. If so, skip whichever you like. I choose to do this as the amount of time it takes is trivial. Especially compared to something preventable screwing up a match that costs $2k once you add all the expenses up.
Prior to every match, among other things I do the following every single time:
- Break rifle completely down and clean. Including removing barrel
- Assemble rifle and torque everything down properly. Loosen and retorque scope rings
- Foul barrel and zero
- 30-45 build and break positional shots at 100yds. No more than 2 shots each position. Adjust zero ever 10-15 shots. You'll get a ton of good practice as well as a very solid zero across all positions
- Verify dope at 300, 600, 800, 1k on waterlines
Once I started using the above process I never again experienced any issues with zero, dope, or equipment failures.
Some will consider the rifle breakdown, cleaning, and torque to be above and beyond. If so, skip whichever you like. I choose to do this as the amount of time it takes is trivial. Especially compared to something preventable screwing up a match that costs $2k once you add all the expenses up.
I send all the components back to their manufacturer to be cleaned, inspected, and returned to factory new condition before reassembly.
But otherwise, I do the same.
Yes, and no. Moving rifle targets tend to be expensive to purchase, time consuming to service, and the mechanisms are bullet magnets. Rifle matches with mover stages are likely the minority.
But, the “nationals” I was referring to is the National Sporting Clays Association national tournament. In that event, you should expect all targets to be movers…
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